Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Oct 2013 21:41

RahulM good grasp of history. Wish more people had basic understanding of the chronology.

KaranM what you learn form Chanakya is the need for both short term and long view. The short term helps achieve the long view.
All the kuta neeti stuff folks bolivate on is for the short term. His greater achievement is the idea of one India instead of the many janapadas, which finally got implemented and furthered by subsequent kings.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 29 Oct 2013 21:45

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2013 21:52

Ramana I think if modi (if he wins) just revitalizes institutions and breaks the INC cartel plus it's crony secularism/corrupt backing, that itself will be a remarkable achievement. I only hope he is in power enough to get things done and finally, he also knows when to make way for somebody younger who can carry on his work, when his efforts are done. In which case, it would be interesting to know what is the state of the BJP in Gujarat, are there enough second rung leaders etc. That would give us an idea.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Oct 2013 21:53

MOUNI MOHAN was talking all kind of things about how Patel is congress leader, secular etc and Modi said Patel should have been our PM. That resulted in booing from the mafia crowds.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Oct 2013 21:53

Rahul M wrote:
Basic history: Vikramaditya of vikram-betaal fame belonged to gupta dynasty. His official name is Chandragupta II.
IIRC the vikramaditya of vikram-betaal fame is vikramaditya of ujjain, elder brother sage bhatrihari. he started the vikram samvat era around 50BC to commemorate his victory over some invading central asian saka/huna tribe.

it is this king whose wisdom was legendary and chandragupta II of gupta dynasty adopted his name. roughly 400 years separate the two.

Unless of course the Guptas ruled between 327 BCE till 82 BCE. Vikramaditya's age is of course correct around 50 BCE according to some accounts.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 29 Oct 2013 21:56

Was there any intra Gujju rivalry between Gandhi and Patel, that Gandhi wanted Nehru to be PM?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 29 Oct 2013 22:04

Could be...they were in the same age group unlike JLN who was 20 years younger than MKG. SP's father IIRC also was a anti-british freed fighter at that time.

habal · Post by **habal** » 29 Oct 2013 22:15

RSS definitely needs better spokespeople than Ram Madhav, it was a cacaphony, and couldn't hear anything. When short of words or when he knew he may be short of words, he started to precipitate airwaves with his own sound. Kamal Farooqui asked what was RSS contribution to freedom struggle. Ram Madhav had no answer. He again said, it is 'his' country, or 'we' (meaning his party or muslims) are the owners of this country, which was a taunt, which reminded me somewhat about Sunnis claiming Syria as their own or again Akbaruddin Owaisi claiming India as 'his/our own', this is not a benign claim to belong to a country but has hints of how they will rule again. Again response to this was also unusually loud which didn't come across as a good rejoinder to taunts.

On the other hand ManMohan Singh ji moved his lips about but no sound came from them. Increased volume but still he was hard to follow or understand. He is good material to listen to if one needs to overcome a hangover or if one gets too excited. The voice gets so limp, that it reminds one what all can go wrong will go wrong.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Oct 2013 22:16

Not true. Patel accepted Gandhiji's lead all the time.

My CT is once "one man, one vote' was decided MKG chose JLN as he would get to be the leader eventually. And don't forget ganga-jamni culture was solidly behind their own.

My complaint is C.R.Rajagopalachari's valuable skills were left to rot outside the INC system. Why? True he was abrasive but it was form having seen the world and JLN was no less abrasive and even abusive.

Having said all that Patel finally realised Chanakya's idea of India by pushing through the States Accession. And unlike the French Revolution it was relatively bloodless.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Oct 2013 22:18

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Manmohan-Modi-share-dais-cross-swords-over-Sardar-Patel/articleshow/24888544.cms Citing the example of Punjab, he asserted that those resorting to violence would not succeed in the country of Mahatma Gandhi and Patel.

subliminal messaging!!!

btw, they need only horns now:

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 29 Oct 2013 22:22

ya I also think Vikramaditya of Ujjain and of Patliputra are same. The capital was later moved to Ujjain.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Oct 2013 22:24

SaiK, Dont be fooled by the rhetoric. It was passing the baton going on.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2013 22:29

I hope you are right but MMS is a G family apparatchik through and through, and really dislikes the BJP. In one revealing interview he called them communal and that they were doing havans to have him replaced. Lot of bad blood.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 29 Oct 2013 22:31

Can someone explain the context of inviting the PM to inaugurate a museum in Gujarat? Was it a Kendra Sarkar project?

bhargava · Post by **bhargava** » 29 Oct 2013 22:46

Two things JLN did immediately after being informed of Sardar Patel's death

Ordered the official Cadillac used by Sardar Patel to be brought to his office
Sent out a note asking all government secretaries desirous of attending Sardar Patel's last rites to do so at their own expenses. ( Mr MKK Nair, who was to circulate it to everyone, hid it..good soul he was )

Source: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVz3IaaCAAA70ns.jpg:large

How Sardar Patel's daughter, Maniben Patel, was treated after his sad demise.

After all the sacrifices that Sardar Patel made for the nation, it was very sad that the nation did nothing for his daughter.In her later years,when her eyesight weakened,she would walk unaided down the streets of Ahmedabad,often stumble and fall until some passerby helped her up.When she was dying, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, Chimanbhai Patel,came to her bedside with a photographer.He stood behind her bed and instructed him to take a picture.The photograph was published in all the newspapers the next day.With a little effort,they could so easily have made her last years comfortable

Source: http://alphaideas.in/2013/10/29/nehru-t ... -daughter/

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 29 Oct 2013 22:59

This is heart-rending! and Nehru was petty, Chimanbhai Patel callous. What can you expect from politicians (usually)? Curious - why was Maniben without any support base of her own or family?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2013 23:00

Thanks for the links. The first is eye opening. My relatives in Hyderabad well remember the days of the Razakars. A thanks to Patel as versus the great internationalist Nehru.

Truly its sad JLN became PM and the Sardar died early. MKG did a final disservice to India by foisting JLN onto us.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Oct 2013 23:22

prahaar wrote:Can someone explain the context of inviting the PM to inaugurate a museum in Gujarat? Was it a Kendra Sarkar project?

MG is not just for Gujarat.. similarly SP is not just for Gujjus!

.

I hope you will not say why Modi should be outside Gujarat anytime soon.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 29 Oct 2013 23:25

Rahul M wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Basic history: Vikramaditya of vikram-betaal fame belonged to gupta dynasty. His official name is Chandragupta II.
IIRC the vikramaditya of vikram-betaal fame is vikramaditya of ujjain, elder brother sage bhatrihari. he started the vikram samvat era around 50BC to commemorate his victory over some invading central asian saka/huna tribe.

it is this king whose wisdom was legendary and chandragupta II of gupta dynasty adopted his name. roughly 400 years separate the two.

Could well be. Point is, modi was not wrong to refer to chandragupta as one of the gupta rulers of the socalled golden age.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 29 Oct 2013 23:27

KJoishy wrote:Was there any intra Gujju rivalry between Gandhi and Patel, that Gandhi wanted Nehru to be PM?

Read Aagneya Panja series on Gandhi.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 29 Oct 2013 23:36

ramana wrote:Not true. Patel accepted Gandhiji's lead all the time.

My CT is once "one man, one vote' was decided MKG chose JLN as he would get to be the leader eventually. And don't forget ganga-jamni culture was solidly behind their own.

My complaint is C.R.Rajagopalachari's valuable skills were left to rot outside the INC system. Why? True he was abrasive but it was form having seen the world and JLN was no less abrasive and even abusive.

Having said all that Patel finally realised Chanakya's idea of India by pushing through the States Accession. And unlike the French Revolution it was relatively bloodless.

I have also heard JLN was a member of Fabian society like Clement Atlee and Atlee insisted on JLN to be the PM. Don't know how true this theory is.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 Oct 2013 23:38

prahaar wrote:Can someone explain the context of inviting the PM to inaugurate a museum in Gujarat? Was it a Kendra Sarkar project?

Sardar Patel Memorial Trust is headed by Union minister Dinsha Patel, who also organised the event. {hee hee I copied that line from http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 44938.aspx }

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Oct 2013 23:39

Sushupti wrote:
KJoishy wrote:Was there any intra Gujju rivalry between Gandhi and Patel, that Gandhi wanted Nehru to be PM?
Read Aagneya Panja series on Gandhi.

Reading MKGs quotes from that series makes me think the root of all this confused p-sec turn the other cheek BS, started from MKG itself, as versus everyone gets treated the same, regardless of caste/creed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Oct 2013 23:50

Sushupti, Looks like the PAtna blasts thread is not getting to crucial detail of what and how and info is sparse. Please spend some time digging and posting the inof there.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Oct 2013 00:07

Gupta Empire had two Emperors Known as Chandragupta- 1 and Chandragupts-II ( also known as Vikramaditya of Vikram Samvat fame). Another illustrious Emperor was Samudragupta who was Son of Chandragupta-I and father of Chandragupta-II

Founded by Maharj Srigupta , Gupta Empire lasted from 320 CE(AD) to about 550 AD . Kalidasa, Varahamihir, Aryabhat, Vishnu Sharma of Panchtantra fame, Vatsyayana of Kamsutra fame were from this period. Most of the epics are stated to have originated durin this period.

Iron Pillar of Delhi belongs to that period.
Generally succeeded by Harshavardhan after a series of weak kings and dimished territories due to foreign invaders , mosy=tly Huns and Kushans and military expeditions so crumbling empire during its last years after 550 CE ( AD)

Gupta Empire capital was also Pataliputra, the same present day Patna.

Chnadragupta-II is stated to have shifted to Ujjain. He was known as Vikramaditya and also King in the stories of Vikram and Baital.

While Maurya Empire was founded by Chndragupta Maurya who vanquished Nanda Vamsa of Pataliputra under guidance of Chanakya also known as Kautilya. Founded during 322 BC. Had following Emperors. Bindusara, Ashoka the great.

Alexander along with his General Selucus came to the borders of India during his period. The Mauryan empire was largest ever in Indian History.

Had its Capital at Pataliputra or present day Patna

Jainism and Budhism flourished during this period.

As one can see both Chandraguptas are separated in time by about 640 years Mauryan empire being earliest.

End of Gupta empire saw foreign invaders coming to India and Later Small kingdoms that arose from ashes of Gupta empire could not achieve the same extent and power and later succumbed to Islamic hordes as Kannuj Ujjain could not do much against the marauding armies. Ancient Indian History comes to an end with this and age of dark medieval period begins with Delhi Sultanate. The period of transition saw fractious India before Islamic roots took hold.

And NaMo did not get his History wrong. It was NiKuamma who got it wrong and that too being a (Shameless) Bihari.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 30 Oct 2013 00:21

Karan M wrote:Thanks for the links. The first is eye opening. My relatives in Hyderabad well remember the days of the Razakars. A thanks to Patel as versus the great internationalist Nehru.

Truly its sad JLN became PM and the Sardar died early. MKG did a final disservice to India by foisting JLN onto us.

I think it was Modi who said this & I tweeted about this today:

1) Sardar Patel's task was the assimilation of 500 princely states into the Indian Union, which he did with aplomb
2) Nehru took it upon himself to integrate One state (Kashmir) & see what a colossal ****-up he created

The comparison between Sardar Patel & Nehru is like the comparison between Modi & Rahul.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 30 Oct 2013 00:29

^^ No Nehru... No DIEnasty

Imagine India without DIEnasty

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Oct 2013 00:45

But the point RajeshA is making, it was Chandra Gupta II (Vikramaditya) that actually faced Alexender and defeated him (or turned him back). The west screwed up the dates and said it was the Maurya ChnadraGupta that faced off Alexender. He was 600 years before that. That also pushesh back when Budha was born!!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Oct 2013 01:10

Well it was indeed Chadragupta Maurya who faced Alexander, the Great and it was before 600+ years prior to ChandraGupta -II, who fought with Huns and Kushans. Gupta empire was last of great Empires of India but still it did not have the extent and power of Mauryan empire.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 30 Oct 2013 01:26

Karan M wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Was there any intra Gujju rivalry between Gandhi and Patel, that Gandhi wanted Nehru to be PM?

Read Aagneya Panja series on Gandhi.
Reading MKGs quotes from that series makes me think the root of all this confused p-sec turn the other cheek BS, started from MKG itself, as versus everyone gets treated the same, regardless of caste/creed.

I can confirm above from my own experience of reading "Collected works of Mahatma GAndhi". Current perverted discourse on Hinduism, prevalent in from lectures of swamis and sadhus to congress aligned intellectuals and termed secular Hindusim, is rooted in Gandhian thought. Biggest conspiracy to invalidate and finish HInduism of Vedas. This is nothing but Christianity dressed in the language of Hindu spirituality. Gandhi was devoid of "Vipra charan raj preeti" or devotion to the holy feet of Brahmins i.e. his "Darshana" wasn't Vedic. You just have to read cwog to know the contempt he has for a "vedpathi" Brahamins living by their Dharma. 1000 times more than my contempt for "conspiring with Malechhas and against Dharma" Bs of Cow belt.

Aurobindo diagnosed the problem best.

"All his preaching is derived from Christianity, and though the garb is Indian the essential spirit is Christian. He may not be Christ, but at any rate he comes in continuation of the same impulsion. He is largely influenced by Tolstoy, the Bible, and has a strong Jain tinge in his teachings; at any rate more than by the Indian scriptures -- the Upanishads or the Gita which he interprets in the light of his own ideas."

http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/ir/IR_part3.htm

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 30 Oct 2013 02:10

Gandhi didn't even understand the BG! To tell to turn one cheek then the next, to tell families to remain non-violent when mobs were killing and raping their kin..is nothing but adharma! He clearly didn't believe in Krishna's advise and coopted to remain and justify Arjuna's confused state of mind before the battle.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2013 02:12

I was a big fan of MKG in my younger days... had the collected works etc and can confirm it does influence you to believe hinduism is all about turning the other cheek, somewhat of an elitist outlook in some parts about how better a person is for being like this, above base desires etc.. also used to read a lot of commie oriented stuff (Chindu, Frontline etc)..

Funnily enough, I also used to read CRajagopalacharis abridged versions of Mahabharata & Ramayana.. somehow, that stuck with me.. and perhaps prevented me from being 10x pacifist.

Should read it again some day, and see what it comes across as now..

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 30 Oct 2013 02:19

Shivanand Tiwari praises Modi

- http://toi.in/bsb1AW

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Oct 2013 02:20

member_23365 · Post by **member_23365** » 30 Oct 2013 02:22

I think Modi did a great job by inviting MMS for Sardar Patels memorial inaugration.
First the mango abdul of country will realize there were leaders other than Nehru and Ghandhi who contributed to freedom struggle and served this country. In last 20-30 years we were fed with so much of Nehru-Ghandhi by naming almost everything after them, contribution from other leaders like SC Bose, Lal Bhadur and many others are fading from our memories.
Secondly Modi's strategy is great, cut the roots of family(Nehru) tree.. trunk , branches and leafs will dry and fall by themselves.
Punjab govt do organise program like Gaddri Baba da Mela, and also b'cos of various movies on Bhagat Singh, general public know more about revolutionaries contribution but Netaji SC Bose legacy was left to rot by all Indians, I wish there is something done by Bengal govt to honour the great soul.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Oct 2013 02:35

Can we take the history lessons to the Distorted History thread please?

thanks,

ramana

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Oct 2013 02:56

atamjeetsingh wrote:I think Modi did a great job by inviting MMS for Sardar Patels memorial inaugration.
First the mango abdul of country will realize there were leaders other than Nehru and Ghandhi who contributed to freedom struggle and served this country. In last 20-30 years we were fed with so much of Nehru-Ghandhi by naming almost everything after them, contribution from other leaders like SC Bose, Lal Bhadur and many others are fading from our memories.
Secondly Modi's strategy is great, cut the roots of family(Nehru) tree.. trunk , branches and leafs will dry and fall by themselves.
Punjab govt do organise program like Gaddri Baba da Mela, and also b'cos of various movies on Bhagat Singh, general public know more about revolutionaries contribution but Netaji SC Bose legacy was left to rot by all Indians, I wish there is something done by Bengal govt to honour the great soul.

I like the fact that in front of a mostly congress crowd he spoke his mind. This is not a person who is afraid.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 30 Oct 2013 03:48

This thread was started in Dec 12. By April 13, we had a 100 pages. Now we are closing in on 500 pages!! This thread really moves.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Oct 2013 03:50

^^^ And has close to ~200K replies and 350K views in the burkha forum!

The ratio shows many of the viewers are active posters!

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Oct 2013 03:51

johneeG wrote: Gus saar,
I think what is happening is that SRT is being forced or coerced by the kongis to campaign. So far, SRT is being adamant about not doing so. He has clarified again and again. Yet the kongis and their media continue to raise this issue. So, it seems like SRT is being forced by kongis.

Paanwaala news:
Famila is putting pressure via shukla & co. on him, even hinting at possible sabotaging the carrier of Arjun Sachin Tendulkar.