Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Oct 2013 16:09

I am from Delhi and feeling here is that BJP does not have any charismatic leader here. So lot of people will vote AAP in local and Modi in National elections.

member_25682 · Post by **member_25682** » 31 Oct 2013 16:10

@timesnow -
NIA sleeps as suspect Mehreh Alam escapes from outside a lodge in Muzzafarnagar pic.twitter.com/GI5HRdOi8O - One more dot to connect ?

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 31 Oct 2013 16:10

sum wrote:Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) loyalists could damage the prospects of Congress not just in the national capital but also at the center. Arvind Kejriwal is the most preferred choice for Delhi’s chief minister, as per the findings of a Delhi- pre poll survey conducted by CSDS- CNN IBN. But fifty one per cent of those who want Arvind Kejriwal as the chief minister of Delhi want to see Narendra Modi as the country’s prime minister. Fourteen per cent of those who favoured Kejriwal as the chief minister also preferred him as the prime minister. Only seven per cent of them said that Congress vice president Rahul Gandhi should get the top job. The trend signifies that personalities will matter more than parties in the Delhi assembly poll and general election, said experts.

It could be classic misdirection too. News put out to make pro BJP people believe that a great number of their peers, while wishing for NaMo for PM, would still like to see AK as CM of Delhi instead of Dr. Harshvardhan. Thereby sowing seeds of confusion in their minds..and probably with the intention of leading more pro BJP voters towards AAP in Delhi?

member_25682 · Post by **member_25682** » 31 Oct 2013 16:22

rajithn wrote:
sum wrote:Aam Aadmi Party (AAP) loyalists could damage the prospects of Congress not just in the national capital but also at the center. Arvind Kejriwal is the most preferred choice for Delhi’s chief minister, as per the findings of a Delhi- pre poll survey conducted by CSDS- CNN IBN. But fifty one per cent of those who want Arvind Kejriwal as the chief minister of Delhi want to see Narendra Modi as the country’s prime minister. Fourteen per cent of those who favoured Kejriwal as the chief minister also preferred him as the prime minister. Only seven per cent of them said that Congress vice president Rahul Gandhi should get the top job. The trend signifies that personalities will matter more than parties in the Delhi assembly poll and general election, said experts.

It could be classic misdirection too. News put out to make pro BJP people believe that a great number of their peers, while wishing for NaMo for PM, would still like to see AK as CM of Delhi instead of Dr. Harshvardhan. Thereby sowing seeds of confusion in their minds..and probably with the intention of leading more pro BJP voters towards AAP in Delhi?

So does the 2/3 in RJ,MP, CG - could be misdirection to create a lull. Let's hope BJP bosses are awake and aware of reality and have action plan to counter. Dr HW, interview on HT, clarity of thoughts and humble appearance and tone. It can be an asset, but how much people from Delhi know him ? or was it a bit late to put him in Front ?

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 31 Oct 2013 16:23

vic wrote:I am from Delhi and feeling here is that BJP does not have any charismatic leader here. So lot of people will vote AAP in local and Modi in National elections.

I thought Dr. Harshvardhan was Mr. Clean and honest, and therefore, the perfect foil for Kejriwal. What is wrong with Dr. Harshvardhan?

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 31 Oct 2013 16:30

Khatri wrote:@timesnow -
NIA sleeps as suspect Mehreh Alam escapes from outside a lodge in Muzzafarnagar pic.twitter.com/GI5HRdOi8O - One more dot to connect ?

Well this is the reply of dynasty to modi's daring visit to Bihar on 2nd. The game is getting bloodier everyday. Don't know to what level they are willing to sink to save their skin. There are still at least 5 months to go. Problem is that dynasty has a million lives and modi has one.

syele · Post by **syele** » 31 Oct 2013 17:32

When is Mamata Banarjee coming up with Subash Chandra Bose status or Jayalalita Aurobindo's with associated school, hospital, park and university?

syele · Post by **syele** » 31 Oct 2013 17:44

Hari Seldon wrote:^51% of AAP voters want namo as PM... IOW, AAP is well and truly eating into BJP votes more than INC ones... worrisome, IMO...

It means cross voting. These people might vote for AAP in state elections but will vote BJP in parliament elections.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Oct 2013 17:47

syele wrote:When is Mamata Banarjee coming up with Subash Chandra Bose status or Jayalalita Aurobindo's with associated school, hospital, park and university?

HyderaBad needs a PVNR statue.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Oct 2013 17:47

vic's point is a real hick point to bjp. bjp having such leaders, should ensure such leadership has followership. the spread should have larger spectrum, if the desire is to get the 2/3rd majority as a single party. replacing a dynasty system is not that easy of a joke.. like i said earler, we need lot more dharmic participations from million modilets within the party in each state.

i understand, modi's national figure is just established, but pointing this caveat should not be an impending problem for the party, having to focus just on elections alone, and chucking modi to dustbin. first of all, bjp name is mentioned more because of modi and not because of LKji.. jee, his ji-ness has no address space in BRF posts nowadays.

let modi just be a begin.. vic, it is required for the health of nation, we get a better governance first. let people vote for modi and not for bjp first.. and we will think about bjp later. if bjp can't establish themselves, then they are the losers to dynasty again. a nation as a whole can be treated as a community - nationally communal force is fine to fight against corruption. it is the corrupted evil force that is anti communal and not the good is against community development model.

we are confined to groups, zones, geographic areas, states, divisions, religions and caste.. and what not.. but, never ever we think of improving these divisions at all. if the evil forces wanted division, but none of the divisions care for better living, then we have a catastrophic problem. such divisions will disintegrate india soon.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2013 17:48

AK is a alumnus of IIT. always sells well with the fbook/TOI crowd and with older people who believe anyone who goes to IIT must be a "good kid" heh heh.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 31 Oct 2013 18:14

to fanne ji's point on EVM and AAP party. Saar, dilli is quite small and nothing on earth is stopping modi and his team from having 64 candidates in each seat. Already probably there will be 10-15 candidates in each seat. All they need to do is fund 50 more in each seat, so that is 3500 people. Kind of nothing for a party like BJP. I dont believe BJP is not aware of this, TRS has done it, GVL who is a member of the BJP and meets modi regularly has cited this before. Either they believe they have a handle on the evm's or they think evm's are not tamperable. So i will not buy this explanation that BJP loses becos of AAP nor will i will buy this explanation that it was actually evm giving votes to aap and in the name of aap congress won.

BJP can well force a ballot if they fear the evm.

They have lost 3 elections in a row in delhi, why do you think they should win this time and if they lose it is evm. A party that was squabbling openly just 8 weeks before elections against a well oiled congress machinery in delhi is never destined to win. Have you seen congress vote share in delhi in LS 2009. They had 54% vs 30 of BJP. I would argue that AAP is doing BJP a favor by screwing congress equally, or else i am pretty sure that at a state level BJP would have lost delhi, they may have won 2014 LS in delhi owing to modi. They have done that in the past too, lost 98 assembly and won 99 LS in delhi.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Oct 2013 18:21

muraliravi wrote:BJP can well force a ballot if they fear the evm..

how?

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 31 Oct 2013 18:36

SaiK wrote:
muraliravi wrote:BJP can well force a ballot if they fear the evm..
how?

put 64 candidates in each seat. this has been mentioned a 1000 times.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Oct 2013 18:57

deposit investment?
25k*64=16L per seat?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Oct 2013 19:00

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Oct 2013 19:06

Posted w/o comment. Speaks his thinking crystal clearly IMHO...

namo namaha indeed...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Oct 2013 19:12

^where is his famous favorite subject- tourism?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Oct 2013 19:51

The CNN-IBN-The Week pre-poll, like many others, has captured a trend and the discourse in Delhi. But as any political student knows well, there is a significant slip between the cup and lip. Discourse and buzz doesn’t always translate into as many seats as projected, in our first-past the post election system. Because there are no cross-state blocs, large number of voters vote for candidates and their own selfish gain, not ideology.

Observers and the media often misunderstand and consequently misjudge Delhi because we don’t notice a huge segment of the state. Because Delhi isn’t just Connaught Place, Jor Bagh, South Extension, Chanakyapuri, Defence Colony, Greater Kailash or Hauz Khas. There is a huge underbelly, a rather large poor and impoverished class, that remains a completely undocumented reality. Mumbai’s Dharavi gets extensively chronicled, romanticized, featured and seen.

But large swathes of Delhi — Kondli-Gharoli, Kapashera, Burari, Nand Nagri, Ambedkar Nagar, Karawal Nagar, Jaffrabad, Seelampur, Badli, Deoli, Rithala and Madipur — are unheard of places for many. They find no exposure in any discourse. They are the blind spot in our commentary, areas we either don’t wish to see, or pretend don’t exist. The minds of these areas may be unmapped by commentators, but these are areas which command huge political influence in the state. How extensively and actively they participate and get shaped by the new political discourse of Delhi, will hold the key. Established parties, with much greater access to resource, money and influence, have the capability of blunting the buzz and discourse.

The first hint of results that voters hand out to politicians is by the numbers that turn up at booths. And if more than 57.5 percent – which turned out in 2008 – do so on 4 December, Sheila Dikshit should have many more furrows on her forehead.

But whatever the result on 8 December, the Aam Aadmi party would have not only ended up stirring Delhi’s politics, it would have shaken it up as well.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/politics/kejri ... ef_article

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 31 Oct 2013 20:17

The author seems to contradict himself.. If BJP is traders party and not-so-well-to do people decide the fate of winning party, it should worry kangress much more than BJP. Because these people, not being traders who would have voted for kangress earlier may now shift to AAP; This would reduce the gain of BJP, But would not give enough for AAP to win. I feel stage is being set up for EVM magic. If not anything, mafia would like to control dilli for the future well being of ruling clan and their chamchas

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2013 20:19

the estates dept of the CPWD which is under delhi govt I think controls the allocation of housing in lutyens delhi.
keeping control over it is key to bagging plum bungalows for all manners of chamchas and pet dogs.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2013 20:56

Singha wrote:a sleepy beach village on karnataka coast named murudeshwara has become a tourist attraction due to the worlds biggest Shiva statue perched on a hill beside the sea. a local builder group has financed it all - statue, new temple, hotel, hospital, colleges.....these things have a good impact on the local economy. if we do a headcount, how many statues/roads/schemes/parks we have of the family name its a world record.

Ramana had posted the list of GOI schemes named after the dynasty in the Nehru thread. I just tweeted it. Read & laugh (or cry)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... =firefox-a

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2013 21:00

What's amazing to me is the amount of goodwill milking the dynasty does with its Gandhi name. I was talking to a girl from Uruguay yesterday. She had heard about Sonia Gandhi & the fact that she was named the 3rd most powerful woman by Forbes. She was a bit surprised because she thought that Sonia must have been ruthless to become so powerful, which would be incongruous with her (Mahatma) Gandhi lineage.

I was like "WTF"! Had to explain to her about how the dynasty appropriated the name.

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 31 Oct 2013 21:17

Many many postors have posted on topics not related to NaMo\Congress directrly (such as some 25 of past 50 posts are on AAP) . But all get away. Look like, "Topic Rakshaks" consider me less equal than others

.

Patna blasts:

We know all know that David Headley was CIA agent who helped ISI engineer attack on Mumbai on 26-nov. ISI has been CIA subsidiary, and CIA keeps tight watch on it. So much so, that the toilet paper in ISI offices has two ply with carbon, and the copy is sent to CIA. CIA had engineered 26-nov attack to tell Indian elitemen to behave well. The recent Patna 27-oct-2013 bomb blast could have been engineering by ISI at the command of CIA. why? To remind NaMo about strength of CIA i.e. MNC-owners. Lately ISI is slipping into the hands of China. So China too could be behind this ISI's move. It is hard to believe that IM will act without orders of ISI and act all alone to such an extent.

In a way, it has been good for NaMo that NaMo dumped Tridevalaya issue before the bomb blasts. Because if NaMo had dumped Tridevalaya issue after the bomb blasts, then many would accused NaMo that "NaMo got scared and so NaMo dumped Tridevalaya issue". Now only a few can accuse that "NaMo foresaw that blasts coming, and so to reduce the blasts, NaMo dumped Tridevalaya issue". The damage is less.

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AAP factor

MNC-owners are paying mediamen to project AK as "better PM candidate than NaMo" to cut NaMo votes. Many voters in Delhi already think that AK can be better PM than NaMo. I cant say whether they are 2% or 20%. But it is quite significant. MNC-owners will spend 50 times more money nation wide in months to come, and may manage to convince some 3% to 5% of all voters across India to vote for AAP. And AFAIS, BJP has no strategy against AAP.

====

nageshks : Taken a look at the demographics of India (in general) and Kerala in particular? What was the religious profile of Kerala in 1870 and what was the profile in 1950? When did most people in Kerala convert to Christianity? When did Meghalaya, Nagaland, and Mizoram convert to Christianity? If anything, the period between 1870 and 1940 was the time when the British, in conjunction with their business, made the most conversions. The way they tried converting people on plantations is something that you really need to look up, before dissociating the British commercial interests with Christianity propagators.

After 1860s, British confined to tribals (poor, illiterate, unconnected) and Kerala (Kerala had a base before British came). They stopped use of force. They completely stopped forcing christianity on soldiers after 1860s by putting cow\pig tallow in bullets and other means. Compare what British did between 1860 to 1940 with what Portugese did in Goa and rest of the world. Or what Spanish did in whole world.

nageshks : Also, if the MNC owners put business ahead of religion even then, as per your own assessment, why do you fear the MNCs now? Will they put religion ahead of business today? .... So, if serious backlashes were feared when the British were ruling, why don't they fear serious backlashes against their businesses today? And damage unloyal setup?

British were less worried about uprising , but more worried about help rebellions would get from Russians, French, Germans etc. The locals had no good weapon manufacturing technology and so they would never last no matter what their numbers are. But if locals started getting weapons from Russians, French, Germans, Italians etc then British would lose. Back in 1860s, there was real possibility that if British decide to loot and convert Indians severely, then Russians, French, Germans etc. would jump and give weapons and create rebellion. Now all Western countries are united when it comes to looting. eg when USA looted Iraq, they gave some 30% to UK, France, Germany, Italy etc , and so none helped Iraq.

Also, this time, Missionaries will NOT use any force to convert. MNC-owners will bribe education ministers to ruin govt schools. That will force poor to send kids to Missionary schools. MNC-owners will push of policies that will make medicine prices will go 5 times. This will make poor run to Missionary hospitals. And MNC-owners will bribe Ministers to hand over all temple wealth to Missionaries. QED. No force.

nageshks : Were you not just claiming that NaMo is a true MNC bhakt, and will grovel at their feet? So why would they damage the political setup of their own creature? Even you concede that there are serious backlashes against the Christian missionaries and MNCs supporting them if large scale conversion is attempted. So, the MNCs owners, are putting their puppet, NaMo, on the throne. So, why would they undermine their own puppet, and risk damaging their businesses in the bargain?

I have never said or even remotely implied that NaMo is MNC-bhagat or will "frovel at MNC-owners' feet". What I said is that now he is cornered and fully hijacked by MNC-owners and so NaMo has now has no option but to do what MNC-owners ask him to do.

Let me elaborate. Politics is a cross of chess and game go, with some cruel variations. In one variation of game go, when a black stone is all surrounded by white stones, black stone become white stone !! IOW, in politics, when a person is too dependent on adversary, or too many of his men depend on adversary, then he becomes adversary himself. And if not, then like chess, he may get eliminated or replaced. The recent bomb blast could have been engineered by CIA via ISI just as CIA had deputed Headley to assist ISI engineer 26-nov-2009 attack on Mumbai. And lets say it was NOT CIA. But even via paid-media like paid-ToI and scored of TV-channels, MNC-owners have sufficient leverage over NaMo. So this will eventually make NaMo an unwilling hostage doing what they want.

In the first 10 years, MNC-owners will NOT push Missionaries much. They will focus on breaking maths\science education in India, make Indian weapon manufacturing whole FDI based , take over all mineral mines and crude oil wells etc. After that, when all bases are broken and no possibility of fighting back and escape, they will unleash Missionaries en-masse.

Rahul Mehta : So what is YOUR take on what would be NaMo's policies towards MNC-owners and Missionaries? Would he try to block\expel them and if yes how? Or would NaMo open all gates for MNC-owners and Missionaries?

nageshks : I don't have an opinion as yet. I am willing to wait and see what he does before making up my mind. He is an RSS man and I still have some faith in the RSS. Besides, he is a clear cut nationalist. No reason to believe he will convert all Hindus to Christians.

Many believed till 2-oct that RSS\NaMo will never dump Tridevalaya issue. And even when Sb4D statement came, and I told them, that the only reason behind making Sb4D statement is to dumpt Tridevalaya, they did NOT believe me, till Amit Shah himself made it clear in TV-interview that Tridevalaya issue will not there at all. And I never said that that "NaMo will convert all Hindus to Christians". What I am saying is that NaMo will end up making India dependent on FDI = MNC-owners, and that will lead to wholesale Christianization after 10-20 years.

Rahul Mehta But 'engineering in India by foreigners" will not add any strength to Indians in their final war against Americans. So IMO, unless we fix laws, there is no hope.

nageshks : Final war against Americans!!!! Well, you can leave me out of your war.

It is not my war. And when war choses you, you may not unchose war. Death, taxes and wars always come. If you think that USA will stop devoring countries after it has broken China, you will be very surprised. Because the day USA manages to break China, next day it will break India. And at that time, if all our weapon factories are running on FDI, then none of their weapons will work. Now USA may win that war without firing a gunshot, just as USA won Kargil war without firing a bullet from US guns. (Yes, Kargil war was unleashed by USA on India with Pakistan as proxy to teach ABV a lesson for doing Pokharan-2 against orders of USA). But war with USA will surely come.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 31 Oct 2013 21:19

bhargava wrote:

This is priceless.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 31 Oct 2013 21:52

KLNMurthy wrote: HyderaBad needs a PVNR statue.

This will Nehru Gandhi family even more than the Sardar Patel's statue

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2013 21:59

Kanson wrote:Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/politics/kejri ... ef_article

If there is a vast underbelly of poor in Delhi, shouldnt Modi (endorsing Dr. Harshvardhan) enthuse them more than Kejriwal?

Modi's message is development & Kejriwal has a one-point corruption agenda. Corruption is a middle-class worry. The poor dont care as much about it. If Modi can galvanize the Delhi poor to come out & vote in large numbers on a pro-development plank, he may tilt the scales

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 31 Oct 2013 22:02

Modi as PM impact on Congress seats.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2013 22:11

Sushupti wrote:Residues of colonialism align to face Modi.

In election season, Muslim factions unite, meet Sonia Gandhi

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-el ... i/1188852/

Its funny how all & sundry Muslim clerics are described as "influential". Like the phrase "Chinese scholar" used to describe any 2 bit author of some stupid piece in Xinhua.

Ashok Sarraff · Post by **Ashok Sarraff** » 31 Oct 2013 22:12

The two sets of bars at the bottom show interesting trends: INC's seats are decreasing and BJP's seats are increasing with time. Unless things change drastically in favor of INC in the next few months, this trend will likely continue, giving a clear lead to BJP and decimate INC. IMO.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 31 Oct 2013 22:20

Sushupti wrote:Modi as PM impact on Congress seats.

Sushupti-ji,
Is there a statewise breakdown of the seats that are expected to accrue to all the parties?

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 31 Oct 2013 22:25

In fact the increase in seats is only considering the 4 states which are going to polls and they considered all other states to be same as before (2009? or previous survey?)
If other states also reflect the same trend, then we are witnessing a wave election.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 31 Oct 2013 22:25

nageshks wrote:
Sushupti wrote:Modi as PM impact on Congress seats.
Sushupti-ji,
Is there a statewise breakdown of the seats that are expected to accrue to all the parties?

I posted pic from here. I don't think they have state wise breakup of seats.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/big-gains-li ... 21-80.html

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 31 Oct 2013 22:29

^^^With 180 days still to go Con optimistically is at 124. 15 seats less than july prediction. So there is good chance that finally it will end up below 100. Ideally it being a sickular party it should end up at 72 so that it meets its 72.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 31 Oct 2013 22:33

SaiK wrote:deposit investment?
25k*64=16L per seat?

Thats a paltry amount for BJP to force a ballot and as i mentioned, there will already be 15 candidates per seat anyway. so may 12-13 lakhs per seat.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 Oct 2013 22:53

There would be enough BJP supporters who would put up their own money (so one hopes). If not, then there is no chance BJP can win this election even if there is no EVM magic.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 31 Oct 2013 23:00

matrimc wrote:There would be enough BJP supporters who would put up their own money (so one hopes). If not, then there is no chance BJP can win this election even if there is no EVM magic.

I mean in total it will cost them 9 crores to ensure a evm free election in delhi. I am quite sure they can cough that much if they are worried about evms.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Oct 2013 23:05

public petition must begin now to question evm guarantee to our democratic insitution, and violations of the constitution(-should be- is my thought) first..

paper trail based, or plugin evm to a secured system, to review by id (voter id) to validate duplicates. it should be a two week project for our budding IITians.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 31 Oct 2013 23:13

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Oct 2013 23:14

Prem Kumar wrote:
Kanson wrote:Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/politics/kejri ... ef_article
If there is a vast underbelly of poor in Delhi, shouldnt Modi (endorsing Dr. Harshvardhan) enthuse them more than Kejriwal?
Modi's message is development & Kejriwal has a one-point corruption agenda. Corruption is a middle-class worry. The poor dont care as much about it. If Modi can galvanize the Delhi poor to come out & vote in large numbers on a pro-development plank, he may tilt the scales

Delhi has concentration of Imported Bangla Deshi Voters in 2digit percentage to change any local Indian vote equation.