Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

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pragnya
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by pragnya »

Philip wrote:The report about the desi AIP systems for the last 2 Scorpenes, also comes with some confusion.It says that it will be made with "TOT"! That the French have offered us MESMA (which is on the Paki Agosta 90B subs too).There weer earlier reports about the DRDO developing its own fuel-cell AIP system.If this is being fitted,then from whom have we got the reported "TOT"?

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 270344.ece
some confusion in the report. IIRC, DRDO AIP has no collaboration with any one. it is a completely inhouse effort. from what i could make out, the last 2 scorpenes may have either MESMA (french) or DRDO AIP - one of them.
PS:Pragati missile? Range can only be less than 300km due to the MTCR.Is it a development of Prithvi or a scaled down Prahar?
this has completely come out of the blue!! never heard. similar was the case with Prahar. 'probably' a scaled down version of tactical battlefield missile Prahar. need to wait on this though.

good that DRDO keeps springing surprises quite often now. :)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

DRDO will TOT to MDL.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

[quote="NRao"]DRDO to export sonars to Myanmar soon

from the above link it appears it will not be mesma byut DRDO version.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Hiten »

New Coastal Missile Batteries
Image
The Indian Navy recently issued a Request For Information [RFI] for acquiring, initially, 15 mobile units of missile systems, that could be placed along the coastline. Such land-based Naval Coast Batteries primarily perform a defensive role against attacking warships & hostile incoming aircrafts.
via http://www.aame.in/2013/10/bolstering-i ... -navy.html
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Strange.We have perhaps the best mobile battery system with the land fried version of BMos.In the FGFA td. I've posted western analysts views on how the IN could dominate the Malacca Straits and the neighbouring SE Asian states by deploying BMos batteries on the A&N islands.The range of the missile is supposed to be 300km,within the MTCR regime,but as I posted,nations like SoKo a long time ago violated the regime by using smaller warheads and extra fuel for greater range.Plus,the kinetic energy of the supersonic BMos missile adds enormously to the kill effect,at least 2-3 times that of a subsonic missile with similar warhead (300KG+).

The IN is one of the luckiest navies in the world which has a bewilderign assortment of anti-shipo/LACMs in the form of BMos & Klub-both in all 3 variants,Uran,legacy late model Styx,Exocet-to be used on IN Scorpenes,Harpoons for the P-8s,Sea Eagle-being pensioned off on the maritime strike Jaguars/Sea Kings (to be replaced with Harpoon),and finally Nirbhay under development which willl give us a LACM of Tomahawk class.Here is an OZ syudy of Russian anti-ship missiles which we have ins ervice.

http://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-Regional-ASCM.html
The Tu-142M Bear F

The baseline Bear F long range maritime patrol aircraft was originally armed only with depth charges, sonobuoys and homing torpedoes. The aircraft has considerable growth potential as a carrier of anti-shipping or land attack cruise missiles, a role performed by its sibling Bear G and H models during the Cold War. The SRPE MKU-5-6 rotary launcher for the Bear H and Kh-55SM cruise missile can be readily adapted to the Bear F, and its size easily permits the carriage of the 3M-54E, 3M-54E1 and Kh-35. The weight of the 3M-54E may limit the load to 4 or 5 rounds. The common wing root pylon used on the Bear G and H is rated for the 7 tonne Kh-22 missile, and could accommodate single rounds or pairs of the 3M-54E, 3M-54E1, Kh-35, Kh-41 and possibly the Kh-22 or KSR-5. A best case loadout of the supersonic 3M-54E could be as large as ten rounds.

Another issue of some concern is that once the basic version of such a missile is deployed operationally, the incremental cost of deploying more advanced versions is very modest indeed. Moreover, land attack versions using satellite navigation are becoming available and could also be fielded with little additional effort. The Russians have developed optical scene matching guidance hardware similar to that used on the US Tomahawk cruise missile( Refer Solunin V., Gursky B., `OPTRONIC MISSILE GUIDANCE SYSTEMS:ACCURACY, LOW SIGNATURE AND SIMPLICITY', Military Parade, Jan-Feb, 1999. The system described resembles in principle the US Scene Matching Area Correlator used on the land attack Tomahawk). Therefore submarine launched cruise missiles similar to the US Tomahawk, based on the 3M-54E1, are now technically feasible and would be compatible with the launch systems being fielded by India.

The Bear F has the operating radius, unrefuelled, to penetrate well into Western Australian and Northern Territory airspace from its home base at INS Rajali. The Tu-22M3 has the operating radius to cover an arc between Learmonth and Darwin if sortied from INS Port Blair, and it can use any runway capable of taking an extended range 767 airliner. Should China acquire the Backfire, it can provide almost identical coverage operating from the former Flanker base on Hainan Dao.

Defending Against Supersonic ASCMs

The difficulty presented to a defending warship by the latest Russian ASCMs cannot be understated. While Australia's naval lobbyists will argue that the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM), supported by Nulka and radar absorbent mats will defeat these weapons, or that the damage produced by a Harpoon or Tomahawk sized warhead cannot be fatal to a modern warship, or that the supersonic speed of the ASCMs prvents them from properly acquiring their targets, the reality is a little more complex than they would have us believe. Indeed, the effort being poured by the naval lobby into promoting the purchase of Aegis warships and CTOL/STOBAR carriers would suggest a measure of doublethink which is a little difficult to grasp !

A defending warship can be attacked at ranges between 80-160 NMI which places the launch platform well below the horizon, and outside the range of virtually all SAMs and the Harpoon ASCM. The Moskit, Yakhont and Alfa are all designed for a sea skimming regime of attack, the first two flying a high altitude midcourse phase, with the Alfa flying a subsonic sea skimming midcourse phase.

The first warning a warship will get is when these missiles emerge from behind the radar horizon at about 20-25 NMI, depending on factors such as the height of this ship's radar and ESM antennas, the cruise height of the ASCM and the sea state. Whether it is an ESM alarm or a radar track, warning time between detection and intended impact is between 50 and 60 seconds for the Moskit or Yakhont, and 37 to 46 seconds for the supersonic Alfa. In this time frame the warship must either shoot down or decoy the missile.

The first line of defence are SAMs, such as the ESSM or Standard. For these missiles the radar must acquire and track the inbound ASCM, upon which a SAM is launched and under datalink control steered toward the ASCM. Once close enough, an engagement radar such as the SPG-60/61/62 must illuminate the ASCM for several seconds for the semi-active radar homing SAM to guide itself to impact. If we make the assumption, favourable to the warship, that the SAM can almost instantaneously accelerate to around Mach 3, and it is launched within 3 seconds of ASCM detection, the ASCM will hopefully be destroyed at a distance somewhere around 10 to 12 NMI from the ship.

What happens if there are two ASCMs fired in a salvo ? Then the warship has to first paint one ASCM for several seconds to impact, and then quickly slew the illuminator antenna to the second ASCM to kill it. The launch of the second SAM must be delayed by the time it takes to illuminate for the first SAM since otherwise the second SAM will miss without guidance. If we assume 5 seconds of illumination to kill the first SAM and 2 seconds to slew the antenna, the second ASCM is killed at a distance around 2.8 to 3.8 NMI closer to the ship.

Let's now assume an increasing salvo size of ASCMs. With 3 ASCMs, the distance for the last missile kill is 5.6 to 7.6 NMI closer, or around 3.5 to 5 NMI from the warship. This is of course getting problematic, since SAMs have a minimum engagement range inside of which they do not have the energy to manoeuvre effectively to kill a supersonic target. That range is figure which is seldom publicised, but usually falls inside 2 to 5 NMI. So the fourth ASCM cannot be stopped by a SAM since the illuminator is saturated with ASCMs.

At this point it is strictly a contest between the decoys, onboard jammers, radar absorbers, Phalanx CIWS if fitted, and the quality of the seeker design and its signal processing smarts. A dumb seeker is likely to be decoyed, a smart one less likely. A CIWS gun is usually effective out to around 1-2 NMI and may bag the fourth SCM. If it doesn't then the ship is in dire trouble.

Of course, if 5 or 6 ASCMs are salvoed, odds are the ship will be hit.

Is there anything else the ship can do ? If it has two illuminators on either beam it can turn into the ASCMs to bring a second illuminator to bear. Then it becomes an issue of how many ASCMs can be salvoed at the ship. Odds are that eight supersonic ASCMs will take out even a warship with a very modern AAW package, simply by saturating the fire control system. Even an Aegis cruiser with four SPG-62 engagement radars/illuminators can at best bring three radars/illuminators to bear against a single sector.

What we have described is not a vital and critical secret, the publication of which will irreparably compromise the ADF. It is nothing less than absolutely standard Cold War era Soviet anti-shipping strike doctrine ! Shoot off enough supersonic ASCMs and one or more will get through the saturated air defences of a warship and either kill it, or wound it well enough for a follow-on coup dgrace' shot. The Soviet investment in more than 120 Kh-22M Kitchen firing Backfires was no accident.

How difficult is it to deliver a saturation missile attack ? A Sovremenyy can shoot 8 SS-N-22 Sunburns, a Charlie SSGN 8 SS-N-7 Starbrights, and even a Kilo SSK can push up to six SS-N-27 Alfas out of its torpedo tubes, if it is not equipped with a vertical launch tube package.

If you are using Bears, then depending on the configuration of the aircraft you could shoot up to 10 Alfas. A Backfire could deliver between 4 and 8 Alfas on external hardpoints, depending wholly on the launcher design used. If you are using the Su-27 or Su-30 as a delivery platform, then 2 to 4 Alfas, or 2 Yakhonts could be carried per aircraft. This means that a maritime strike package of 2 to 6 Su-30s could deliver a saturation strike against most modern warships. If the ship is better defended, more fighters can be sortied. Even if the SAMs bag every ASCM, then an attacking air force merely needs to keep throwing ASCMs until the SAM magazines on the defending warships are exhausted. Warships cruising at 20-30 KT cannot outrun aircraft which fly at 400-500 KTAS, once contact is made aircraft can keep revisiting the target until they achieve the desired effect.

Even expending twenty 1 million dollar ASCMs is an excellent return on a warship kill.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Not another naval disaster!

http://www.marinelink.com/news/warship- ... 60248.aspx

Indian Navy's New Warship Runs Aground
MarineLink.com
Sunday, October 27, 2013
File INS Kamorta: Photo credit Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers

The 'INS Kamorta', the first in a class of Indian Navy's ambitious Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Corvettes, under construction at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) shipyard ran aground on in the River Hooghly near Geonkhali in East Midnapore, while on sea trials, reports 'The Times of India'.

Citing Navy officers, the newspaper reports that as the ship was negotiating the bends and bars of the Hooghly, its engines seem to have failed. Its steering gear also got jammed and it moved away from the navigation channel and got grounded near the shore at Geonkhali. Two tugs of the Kolkata Port Trust (KoPT) were sent to the spot.

According to the Navy, extensive checks will be carried out once the ship returns to the yard at GRSE. A team of naval designers and engineers will ascertain what caused the engine failure and the steering gear to fail.

Source:' The Times of India

PS:Surely the warship has aux. engines .For both engines and steering/rudder to fail might indicate a problem with wiring for controls.In any case,most warships have a dual system for the same.Strange.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Indian Navy conducts Defence of Gujarat Exercise

This drill has grown in scope and size over the years.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

More on the exercise.
http://newindianexpress.com/nation/Navy ... 861027.ece
Navy's 'defence of Gujarat' exercise to end on Tuesday

By Express News Service - NEW DELHI
Published: 29th October 2013

Validating lessons learned from the 26/11 Mumbai terror strikes, India’s maritime forces have carried out a week-long exercise in the Arabian Sea off Gujarat and Maharashtra to defend the territorial waters and coast from enemies using massive warships, naval planes and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

The annual exercise, carried out on a large scale, witnessed participation from top-notch warships of the Mumbai-based Western Naval Command and was headed by the Flag Officer Commanding of the Western Fleet, according to a Navy release here on Monday. The ‘Defence of Gujarat’ exercise, will end on Tuesday.

“A large scale annual operational exercise of the Western Naval Command of the Indian Navy will conclude on Tuesday off the littorals of Gujarat and Maharashtra,” the Navy said.

“The week-long exercise termed ‘Defence of Gujarat Exercise’ tested the operational readiness of the Western Naval Command in relation to littoral combat and the defence of vital offshore assets in the northern coastal states of Western seaboard of India,” the Navy said.

In addition to large warships such as the indigenous Delhi-class destroyers, the exercise witnessed participation from Russia-built INS Teg and indigenous Godavari-class frigates, operating under the Flag Officer Commanding Western Fleet (FOCWF).

“The exercise also involved a large number of vessels of the local flotilla including potent missile vessels of the 22nd killer squadron, patrol vessels and minesweepers, operating under the Flag Officer Commanding Maharashtra and Gujarat Naval Area (FOMAG),” the Navy said in the release.

Coast Guard patrol vessels played a key part in providing multiple layers of defensive surveillance.

In addition to warships, the exercise also witnessed intense flying activity by the surveillance planes TU 142Ms, IL-38SDs, and dorniers from both the Navy and Coast Guard, apart from the searcher and heron UAVs.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Documentary on Vikramaditya ( use Captions for English translation )

http://youtu.be/SWkwQPRT2hs
pragnya
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by pragnya »

Austin wrote:Documentary on Vikramaditya ( use Captions for English translation )

http://youtu.be/SWkwQPRT2hs
excellent video. must see. thanks.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Indian, US Navy bilateral exercise MALABAR 2013 begins on 5 Nov

IMO Shivalik class will replace Delhi class as the showpiece ship.
Last edited by chackojoseph on 04 Nov 2013 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
Pratyush
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^ you mean 5th nov.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_24684 »

Pratyush wrote:^^^ you mean 5th nov.

in facebook Tarmak 007 posted this news says MALABAR 2013 on Nov 5 ..

looks like This one finished in Oct
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

chackojoseph wrote:Indian, US Navy bilateral exercise MALABAR 2013 begins on 5 Oct

IMO Shivalik class will replace Delhi class as the showpiece ship.
Malabar 2012 had INS Satpura....and two Kashins among others.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Sorry Nov 5. hehehe. Sorry thanks for pointing it out.

RajitO,

Actually, the scope of the exercise is down contrary to what they are saying. There is an anti-sum drill mentioned without sub participation.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Alarming report about the Saudis buying 5 German U-209s for $2.5B,plus a staggering 24 in total! This will completely change the naval balance of power in the IOR,as the Saudis would then have the largest/second largest sub fleet on the littoral states.The IN's sub fleet is in deep trouble (pun intended).To reach the long planned figure of just 24 subs,will take us until 2030.What we really need is at least 24 conventional/AIP subs,half of which can fire Brahmos and Nirbhay,plus another 6+6 SSBNs and SSGNs.China will have between 60-80 new-built subs by 2020,the Pakis around 9-12,Malaysians,Indonesians and Iranians all collectively possessing about 2 doz as well,with whatever subs Oz
has operational as well.This is why for years I've advocated upgrading and buying/building a few more U-boats-a toal of 8 U-209s/212 or 214s,so that we retain our knowledge of German sub tech aaprt from the long overdue and hideously expensive non-AIP Scoepenes.The Russian line of subs would continue with BMos Amur/Ladas replacing Kilos.in time once the design has been put through its paces .

The IN will now have to have a very strong Arabian Sea sub fleet apart from thiose attached to ENC and SC o dela with the Chinese.

Report: Saudi Arabia Eyes Buying German Submarines
Nov. 3, 2013 - 01:26PM | By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE |
BERLIN — Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future, a newspaper reported Sunday.

Citing unidentified government sources, Sunday’s Bild newspaper said Riyadh had its eye initially on buying the five Type 209 submarines, followed long-term by up to 25 submarines in a €12 billion deal.

It said the chancellery had, in a letter to Saudi Arabia in the summer, indicated a swift and sympathetic examination of Riyadh’s weapons plans as soon as the new German government was established following September elections.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives are currently locked in negotiations with the center-left Social Democrats on forming a grand coalition.

A German government spokeswoman, contacted by AFP, declined to comment and would not confirm or deny the reported letter.

In Riyadh, officials do not usually publicly comment on such deals.

Germany’s heavy industry giant ThyssenKrupp which, the paper said, would produce the submarines was quoted by Bild as saying there was “no project on submarines for Saudi Arabia”.

German arms sales to Saudi Arabia have in the past been criticiaed by opposition politicians, especially in light of pro-democracy uprisings throughout the Middle East.

For decades Germany declined to sell heavy weapons to Saudi Arabia because of concerns over human rights and fears for Israel’s security.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_22539 »

^Manned by whom, flying monkeys (or pakis)? Even the [admin: pls do not use derogatory racial words] (Aussies) have trouble manning their subs, what chance does these camel arabs have at getting it done?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SNaik »

Looks like Ka-31 having a bad case of earth resonance on Teg (?)
Anybody knows when this happened?

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Eric Leiderman »

http://www.defenceiq.com/naval-and-mari ... uble/&amal ticp;mac=DFIQ_OI_Featured_2011&utm_source=defenceiq.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DFIQOptIn&utm_content=11-05-2013

Link shows the spiralling cost overruns for the QE class of Aircraft carriers
Vikramaditya at te price we are getting it looks like a good deal.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

In retrospect,barring the unforeseen problems refurbishing the vessel,extra work,material,delays and cost escalations,the final price is still a real bargain when compared with western equivalents.Moreover we are getting the 45+ MIG-29Ks at an astonishing price of just over $30M an aircraft! This is much less than the cost of refurbishing/upgrading just one M2000. The IN will be really lucky to have acquired a large virtually brand new carrier that will serve for 30+ years and its aircraft at a very good overall price.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by member_22539 »

^We will see how this "virtually brand new" carrier holds up in the future. I wish you were as upbeat and optimistic about indigenous projects.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:In retrospect,barring the unforeseen problems refurbishing the vessel,extra work,material,delays and cost escalations,the final price is still a real bargain when compared with western equivalents.Moreover we are getting the 45+ MIG-29Ks at an astonishing price of just over $30M an aircraft! This is much less than the cost of refurbishing/upgrading just one M2000. The IN will be really lucky to have acquired a large virtually brand new carrier that will serve for 30+ years and its aircraft at a very good overall price.
INS Vikramaditya
45,000 tons. Refurbished for $2.35 billion. Contract signed 2004. Delivered 2013. (9 years)
Lifespan 20 years.

Now lets take a look at the 'western equivalent', which has been criticized for being late and over-budget.

HMS Queen Elizabeth
70,000 tons. Genuinely new for $4.9 billion (up from $2.9 billion). Contract signed 2007. Delivered 2018. (11 years)
Lifespan 50 years.


While the INS Vikramaditya is no doubt a welcome addition to the IN fleet, lets not pretend it was a bargain.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by negi »

^ The catch is we would have bought HMS Queen ELizabeth for not 4.9 billion but a lot more than that; the reasons why Gorshkov cost us more have more to do with our procurement and not the platform. You have been bringing in your lousy COST argument without accounting for hundreds of variables which govern it to each and every thread now. Your comparisons are so out of place if you really want to compare why don't you do that for IAC and then talk.
Last edited by negi on 06 Nov 2013 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

According to Navy Vikramaditya will serve for 30 to 40 years

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 996525.ece
“The entry of the Vikramaditya marks a paradigm shift, as it heralds a new era in carrier operations in the Indian Navy. The way it has been rebuilt and equipped with advanced systems and machinery will ensure that it plods on for another 30 to 40 years,” Rear Admiral S. Madhusudanan, Admiral Superintendent of the Naval Ship Repair Yard (NSRY) in Kochi,
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

SNaik wrote:Looks like Ka-31 having a bad case of earth resonance on Teg (?)
Anybody knows when this happened?

Image
very frightening vid. are you sure it's Teg ?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:According to Navy Vikramaditya will serve for 30 to 40 years

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 996525.ece
“The entry of the Vikramaditya marks a paradigm shift, as it heralds a new era in carrier operations in the Indian Navy. The way it has been rebuilt and equipped with advanced systems and machinery will ensure that it plods on for another 30 to 40 years,” Rear Admiral S. Madhusudanan, Admiral Superintendent of the Naval Ship Repair Yard (NSRY) in Kochi,
You can push most vessels well past their expected operating life. Case in point: HMS Viraat which will be decommissioned 35 years after its formal life of 25 years. Most small navies operate ex-RN, ex-USN vessels decades after the class was retired by the primary user.

Trouble is the longer you flog the vessel, the worse the results are in terms of operational availability. Which is acceptable for some users, but not for one that may actually call on to employ it (only to find that it spends 8 months a year in refit).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

The point is from IN perspective she will serve the navy for 30-40 years , may be the Navy can push it to 50 + years but at cost of low operational tempo.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by negi »

Rahul M wrote:
SNaik wrote:Looks like Ka-31 having a bad case of earth resonance on Teg (?)
Anybody knows when this happened?

Image
very frightening vid. are you sure it's Teg ?
It looked like an IN ship the number 10 uniform worn by one of the crews is a giveaway. Earth resonance is dangerous it actually breaks down the entire chopper. :shock:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

SNaik wrote:Looks like Ka-31 having a bad case of earth resonance on Teg (?)
Anybody knows when this happened?

Image
Never seen any thing like that , when did this happen ?

Good thing is the chopper didnt explode although it caught fire and looks like crew are safe.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

In praising the virtues of the Vik/Gorky bargain,no one is badmouthing our own indigenous efforts with IAC-1.Even though it too is delayed by a few years,it is a learning process for us and in future all our CVs will be home built.The Gorky/Vikram. will easily serve us for at least 30 years. The manner in which we have nursed the Vikrant and Viraat to serve us a couple of decades past their scrap-yard date, is testament to the ingenuity of the IN and the capabilities of our dockyards. "Neccessity is the mother of invention" ,what?!

One sincerely hopes that IAC-2 is nuclear powered whatever the cost,as energy supplies are going to be a major problem in the future.One is not sure of the contours of the classified UCAV project,but one hopes that a naval version,like the X-47B has also been planned for the future. A mix of UCAVs and manned fighters will help in keeping the size of CVs down to reasonable sizes.In addition,all future large surface combatants should take a leaf out of SoKo and the Japanese,who have built mini/small flat tops,actually with Japan's latest a de-facto small carrier, which can operate heavy multi-role helos and JSF type STOVL aircraft.These would give a formidable reach and power projection in excess of a large conventional cruiser class warship.Also armed with missiles in flush-deck silos,they could pack a considerable amount of missiles of various types,anti-ship,land attack,ASW,SAMs,etc. The 3-4 amphibious vessels which we plan to acquire/build should be the second line of multi-role flat tops in the IN's order of battle,which can deal with smaller crises and situations.

As posted above,the Saudi sub ambitions is a wake-up call,if any was needed after the SR disaster,as to the crisis in our sub fleet. On the one hand nuclear-sub development ,the follow-on ATVs in the pipeline,and SSGN procurement with Akula leases is very heartening.Nevertheless,the obsolescence in the conventional sub fleet is truly alarming.Both Kilos and U-209s are being upgraded to serve the In for another decade+. The 6 Scorpenes will only be completed after 2020.As shown above,the IN needs at least 24 conventional subs ,at least 16 with with AIP and Bmos/Klub to spread around he IOR,Indo-China Sea and beyond into the Pacific and Atlantic.This need is crucial to protect our energy supplies which have to traverse the world's ocean,as far off from Venezuela for example.With Chinese companies operating the Panama Canal and outposts all over Africa,the role of subs in the IOR and beyond is going to be substantially increased to deal with multiple threats from varying compass points.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:The point is from IN perspective she will serve the navy for 30-40 years , may be the Navy can push it to 50 + years but at cost of low operational tempo.
Its over 25 year old today. You can push it past 2040 at the cost low operational tempo.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Indranil »

SNaik wrote:Looks like Ka-31 having a bad case of earth resonance on Teg (?)
Anybody knows when this happened?

Image
Frankly, I was very moved by the selflessness of the crew. It is quite brave to go near a chopper laden with aviation fuel and on fire.

The first thing one sees is somebody jumping straight in to get the pilots out. Next, the people trying to the douse the fire show zero care for their own safety and get the fire under control as soon as possible (looks like the ships could do with a stronger pump for those hose).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nachiket »

^^Will they be able to repair that Ka-28 after that accident, or is it a total loss?

Very scary video.
looks like the ships good do with a stronger pump for those hose
Exactly what I thought. Those hoses seemed quite inadequate.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:The point is from IN perspective she will serve the navy for 30-40 years , may be the Navy can push it to 50 + years but at cost of low operational tempo.
Its over 25 year old today. You can push it past 2040 at the cost low operational tempo.
The Hull of such ships can easily last 50-60 years if they are maintained well the problem is the engines and electronics , considering Viki got most thing new except the hull there is no reason to believe what the Admiral is stating.

IN takes care of its ship too well reason why Viraat is still operational and sea worthy , serving two Naval flags in its entire life time.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Karan M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Eric Leiderman wrote:http://www.defenceiq.com/naval-and-mari ... uble/&amal ticp;mac=DFIQ_OI_Featured_2011&utm_source=defenceiq.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DFIQOptIn&utm_content=11-05-2013

Link shows the spiralling cost overruns for the QE class of Aircraft carriers
Vikramaditya at te price we are getting it looks like a good deal.
Price is not all. Its a refurbished soviet era hull and refurbished kit can always have issues. Plus design wise, it has some severe issues.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by srin »

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:In retrospect,barring the unforeseen problems refurbishing the vessel,extra work,material,delays and cost escalations,the final price is still a real bargain when compared with western equivalents.Moreover we are getting the 45+ MIG-29Ks at an astonishing price of just over $30M an aircraft! This is much less than the cost of refurbishing/upgrading just one M2000. The IN will be really lucky to have acquired a large virtually brand new carrier that will serve for 30+ years and its aircraft at a very good overall price.
INS Vikramaditya
45,000 tons. Refurbished for $2.35 billion. Contract signed 2004. Delivered 2013. (9 years)
Lifespan 20 years.

Now lets take a look at the 'western equivalent', which has been criticized for being late and over-budget.

HMS Queen Elizabeth
70,000 tons. Genuinely new for $4.9 billion (up from $2.9 billion). Contract signed 2007. Delivered 2018. (11 years)
Lifespan 50 years.


While the INS Vikramaditya is no doubt a welcome addition to the IN fleet, lets not pretend it was a bargain.

Ahh - the Queen Elizabeth. It is STOVL only - conversion to CATOBAR was uneconomical. So please add "+fortune for the F-35B".
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Karan M »

This is good news and exactly the same way the Navy proceeded with EW fit upgrades while the Ellora EW suite got ready. They imported a mix of Israeli ESM/EW suites as interim. While acquiring enough sonars/torpedos in number to make a significant addition to their fleet, they still keep space for future upgrades/inductions of the Nagan sonar/variants and local torpedoes as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by GeorgeWelch »

srin wrote:Ahh - the Queen Elizabeth. It is STOVL only - conversion to CATOBAR was uneconomical. So please add "+fortune for the F-35B".
You have to consider 'uneconomical' in light of them planning to build it and then immediately scrap it or sell it because penalty clauses made it cheaper to build at that point than cancel.

Also, there's no reason a ramp couldn't be added if that's the route you wanted to go (although I think that would be a mistake as cats allow E-2s and COD, two very powerful things).

A QE with cats would be immensely more capable than the Gorky.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

India, US Launch Annual Malabar Exercises in Bay of Bengal
NEW DELHI — The Indian and US navies began conducting their annual Malabar joint exercises today in the Bay of Bengal, off the coast of Tamil Nadu, an annual event since 1992. The exercises will run through Nov. 11.

The exercises will include gun-firing, fighter combat operations from aircraft carriers, combating terrorism and maritime interdiction operations exercises.

Indian Foreign Ministry sources said the Indian government has limited the exercises to bilateral operations, despite attempts by Washington to included other countries in the region, including Japan, Singapore and Australia, because of concern that Beijing would object.

According to an Indian Navy statement: “The exercise will feature both ashore and at-sea training. Ashore training will include subject matter expert and professional exchanges. The at-sea portions will be conducted in the Bay of Bengal. They are designed to advance participating nations mil-to-mil coordination and capacity to plan and execute tactical operations in a multinational environment.”

US Navy participation includes the Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer McCampbell (DDG 85) and P3C Orion aircraft.

The Indian Navy will employ the homemade frigate Shivalik, the guided missile destroyer Ranvijay, and the Russian-made TU-142M maritime reconnaissance aircraft.
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