Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[Nilesh Oak]

^ Very nice. Watching it right now. Would have been good if there were subtitles. Even without subtitles, much can be understood.

Here is classic (1936) on Sant Tukarama. I must have watched this 'n' (n tends to infinity) times and it literally grows on you, more you watch..

This one is with subtitles....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-4mvbeOOpE

[prahaar]

^ Very nice. Watching it right now. Would have been good if there were subtitles. Even without subtitles, much can be understood.

Here is classic (1936) on Sant Tukarama. I must have watched this 'n' (n tends to infinity) times and it literally grows on you, more you watch..

This one is with subtitles....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-4mvbeOOpE

A true classic. I discovered this movie on YouTube only 5 years back and have watched in many times. The new Sant Tukaram movie has better visual quality, but the heart and soul is missing. The protagonist is portrayed as too bitter in taste for the Sant Tukaram in our hearts - probably due to unfair comparison with timeless classic (1936 version).

[ramana]

Venug, Taking break from MB I started listening to ChKRao on Pothana Bhagavatam. Its five parts 2 hrs each. Very enlightening. The missing parts of MB ie Krishna's early life and Rukmini Kalyanam and her courage all are there.The girl child whom Kamsa tries to kill.
We are truly blessed to be able to hear these gurus ofr we dont have the deep knowledge of Telugu literature to read these works.

And then there are quotes from Devi Bhagavatam we need to hear.

Am now at his fourth lecture.
The fourth is on Krishna leela which starts from birth to kiiling of Kamsa. I had been exposed to short versions via BalaBhagavatam and the BR Chopra TV version in the Mahabharat serial.

But hearing Pothana's composition of Vyasa's Bhagavatam now I get how bhakti marg was so prevalent and is intoxicating to the listener. It is very mesmerising and no wonder Bhaktivedanta was able to attract so many followers thru his ISKCON.


Nilesh, I got to the Putana episode but the way its rendered its about selective infanticide by the king of all new born male babies in his kingdom..

[Nilesh Oak]

Nilesh, I got to the Putana episode but the way its rendered its about selective infanticide by the king of all new born male babies in his kingdom..

There! You have captured the essence of Vartak's argument (not intentionally) about 'Putana' episode. I will post his narration/argument in future (after 'The Historic Rama' project which I had to place on backburner for family, work, and other such Adhi-daivik, Adhi-bhautik and Adhyatmic reasons.
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Think of 'Kaliya Mardan' episode. In this case, a human episode (Kaliya the Naga, who was controlling that area of Yamuna was driven away by Krishna) turned into... Naga to Snake, episode in later times.
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Same thing also happened (In Kaliya Mardan fashion) to story of Takshaka killing Parikshit and later on Janmejaya doing Sarpa-satra. This sarpa satra is the time when Vaishmapayan narrated Mahabharata to King Janmejaya. If taken literally, i.e. Janmejaya literally having a CRUSADE againt 'SNAKES' because one of them bit and killed his father (Parikshit), then we would have to conclude King Janmejaya as utterly mad fellow (and we have no evidence to do so).

Sensible way is to recognize Takshak and Vasuki and many others for who they were. Human beings - proud and brave Indians.

Many here would be familiar with the following (the verse also captures the confusion of Naga to snake and snake poison). I was taught this when I was very young and used to say it frequently per the advice in the verse itself. I distinctly remember the 'intuition' I had even in those days (while reading Chandamama - Chandoba - in Marathi) while reading stories of Naga from Krishna stories or from their adventures in 'Patal' (they were shown under water, with human face and snake tail.. in Chandoba dipictions) that something was gone wrong in their narration.....Oh well, here is the verse, as best as I can recall. Have not uttered it at least for last 25 years.

अनन्तम वासुकी शेषं पद्मनाभं च कम्बलम
शंखपालम धृतराष्ट्रम तक्षकं कालीयेन तथा
एतानि नवनामानी नागनांच महात्मनः
सायंकाले पठे नित्यं प्रातः काले विशेषतः
तस्य विषं भयं नास्ति सर्वत्र विजयी भवेत

[panduranghari]

^ Very nice. Watching it right now. Would have been good if there were subtitles. Even without subtitles, much can be understood.

Here is classic (1936) on Sant Tukarama. I must have watched this 'n' (n tends to infinity) times and it literally grows on you, more you watch..

This one is with subtitles....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-4mvbeOOpE

I have watched it at least about 20 times over years. What a movie. As PuLa Deshpande's Pestan Kaka says about Vishnupant Pagnis - ' ekdum 100% god hai '

[ramana]

Nilesh Nice interpretation. I think you are looking thru the lens of positivism.

Iravati Karve read the MB in isolation and remarks that the Kalidasa version of Abhignana Shakuntalam is more romance version "forgetful hero/fragile nayaki" versus the narration in MB where Shakuntala is very assertive and reminds the king of his paternal duties. However Karve doesn't know that Padma Purana has the fish swallowing the signet ring version that Kalidasa used. Now both are written by Vyasa. Why he chose to be not consistent would be the context. In MB the narration is that of the history of the Bharatas and the emphasis is on how Bharata was acknowledged by his father and succeeded to the throne and enlarged the kingodm and got the land named after him. In the grand narrative the woes of his mother are small and anyway she is recognised as the queen and her son as the successor.


Same was we need to see the MB as a grand narrative of dharma:what is dharma, how it is to be followed, and the benefits of following dharma. All other things are illustrations (gems) of that narrative. And Vyasa doesn't gloss over any unpleasnatness. He puts it in gory detail.


Is there a 'critical' movement in Maharastra? Vartak, Karve und so weiter...?


I see now why Vyasa is also called Bhagawan.

He separated the four vedas and designated certain families to carry the tradition. He worte teh Puranas to illustrate the Vedas. He worte the Bhagavatm: Maha and Devi to illustrate the glory of the God in both male and female form. While dong this he was part of the MB and chronicled it and put into it all his wisdom and learning.
For one person to do this is humanly impossible and only divine providence could guide one.
There are two great anchors of MB: Krishna and Krishna. Vasudeva and Dawipayana respectively.


BTW in the narration of the prehistory of the Bharatas, while narrating the Vinata Kadruva story, Vyasa chronicles the curse Kadruva gives to her Naga progeny that most of them except Takshaka will be burnt up in a sarpa yaga that would be performed in Kali Yuga for not having obeyed her desire to wrap themselves around the tail of Ucchasrava the white horse so she could win a bet with Vinata.


Vasuki, Ananta go on to do tapas and become eternal as the companions of Shiva and Vishnu.


We see repeatedly Takshaka shows up to vile things:
First occurence is wrapping himself on the tail of the white horse to allow his mother to win and unfair bet
Second he shows up in the episode of stealing the ear rings (kundalas) from the rishi
Third he shows up at the Khandava dhana
Fourth he shows up and kills Parikshit Maharaja
Yet he is supposed to be best buddy of Indra who is the father of Arjuna.
In one way Parikshit would be a great grandson of Indra, if we see all this in manava eyes.

[Nilesh Oak]

Is there a 'critical' movement in Maharastra? Vartak, Karve und so weiter...?

Not sure about the 'critical' movement. But here is what Ustad Bade Gulam Ali Khan saab used to say about his preferences. I am paraphrasing his quote from memory. "I prefer doing my concerts in front of audience... from Panjab, Maharashtra and Bengal...first for their enthusiasm, second for their critical faculty and third for their praise".

So somewhere in the genes or in social allele!
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Or it could be very much in the genes...KOBRA ...Vartak, Karve (Karmarkar), Oak, et al. (many past names in the list would include B G Tilak, S B Dixit, V D Savarkar, C V Vaidya, Vinoba Bhave, P V Kane, Shastri Velankar, V B Ketkar, Karnadikar und so weiter)

But this is only inductive reasoning which I detest. So someone needs to propose a deductive conjecture (Yukti-Vada) and then test it against the available evidence.
-----------------------

We see repeatedly Takshaka shows up to vile things:
First occurence is wrapping himself on the tail of the white horse to allow his mother to win and unfair bet
Second he shows up in the episode of stealing the ear rings (kundalas) from the rishi
Third he shows up at the Khandava dhana
Fourth he shows up and kills Parikshit Maharaja
Yet he is supposed to be best buddy of Indra who is the father of Arjuna.
In one way Parikshit would be a great grandson of Indra, if we see all this in manava eyes.

All we have are 'manava' eyes. But with luck (Krishna uses this word (luck) many times in MBH) and effort we may extract the facts/truth.

[johneeG]

http://books.google.com/books?id=b7gOBW ... ni&f=false

Going by kacha's story, i feel it was devas all the way giving problems to asuras. Why were the devas after sanjivini? they had already taken the amrut after churning the ocean.

scroll down, it narrates, "in those days devas and asuras get to freely marry their cousins" - does this mean they married their cousins or cousins of devas and asuras do an inter-gana marrij?

It seems to me that the following is the chronology:
Dheva-Indhra defeated some Raakshasa. And then there were festivities to celebrate the victory. At the time, Dhurvasa came to Indhra, but Indhra misbehaved in some manner. So, Indhra was cursed by Dhruvasa that all his wealth and power would be lost. At the same time, Bali, king of Asuras, rose in prominence with the help of Shukra. Then, the war between Bali and Indhra continued. The war continued for a long time. Bali was in a dominating position and the Dhevas became pretty weak.

Also, most of the wealth of Swarga somehow got situated inside the Sagara(ocean). How? I don't know. It seems Swarga-vaasis also lost the knowledge of immortality. or perhaps they lost Amrutha(which was now situated at the bottom of the ocean) due to Dhurvasa's curse.

Meanwhile, Asuras had the immortality because of the Shukracharya. That was one of the main reasons for the large casualties on the side of Dhevas and the victories of Bali. So, Dhevas went to Bruhaspathi for help. Bruhaspathi told them that he did not know of that particular knowledge. So, Dhevas decided to send Bruhaspathi's son Kacha to Shukra to learn the knowledge. Kacha went to Shukra and became his disciple. Shukra kept him busy in mundane activities but did not teach that particular knowledge. Meanwhile, Asuras became fidgety that Shukra accepted the Kacha as a disciple. They feared that if this knowledge passed on to the Dhevas, their edge would be lost. But, they were afraid to approach Shukra to tell him all this. Instead, they planned to assassinate Kacha. Unfortunately for them, Shukra's daughter Dhevayaani fell in love with Kacha. Whenever Kacha was killed by Asuras, Shukra managed to make him alive again on the insistence of Dhevayaani.

Asuras tried many different ways of killing Kacha, but every time he was rescued by Shukra. So, Asuras tried a remarkable plan. They killed Kacha. Then, they burnt him to ashes. Then, they mixed those ashes in the liquor of Shukra. When Shukra consumed that liquor, the ashes were also went into his stomach. Then, Shukra learnt that Kacha was killed by the Asuras. Dhevayaani declared that she will also commit suicide if Kacha is not brought to life. Shukra understood his dire situation. He blamed the liquor for this situation. So, he passed on injunction that the liquor is henceforth banned. It seems liquor was always banned, but it is one more instance to show that a person's faculties become very slow due to intoxication.

Anyway, Shukra managed to give half-life to Kacha(maybe like a small baby in a mother's womb) and then taught him the knowledge of immortality. Then, he completely brought Kacha to life. But, Shukra died in the process. Then, Kacha using his newly acquired knowledge saved Shukra.

Now that Kacha had learnt the knowledge, he immediately wanted to return to Swarga(Amaravathi). Dhevayaani proposed marriage to him. Kacha declined it by saying that they are like brother and sister. Dhevayaani cursed Kacha that his theoretical knowledge will not have any practical success going forward. Kacha did not mind because he intended to pass on the knowledge to other Dhevas who could have practical success.

Once this knowledge reached the Dhevas, the war became more balanced. And it was attrition with both sides taking loses. Eventually, Dhevas went to Lord Brahma for help and He advised them to go to Vishnu. Vishnu proposed the churning of ocean to repossess the wealth. But, only the Dhevas were incapable of doing it. So, a proposal was sent to the Asuras to cooperate in the endeavor. Asuras accepted the deal. Both sides had malafide intentions. They simply wanted to use the other sides as labours and intended to cheat them once the job is done.

The main architect and overseer of the churning was Lord Vishnu. He appointed Mandhara mountain and Vaasuki specific jobs. Dhevas managed to trick the Asuras into taking the head side of the Vaasuki. Then, the churning started. Vishnu became a Tortoise to support the base of Mandhara. Various valuable items started coming out of the ocean. The items were claimed by different people. Goddess Lakshmi also came up and She re-married Vishnu. Divine horse(Uchchi-shravas), divine tree(Kalpa-tharu), ...etc came out. Jambaavaan, the bear, participated in this churning by throwing various medicinal plants and trees into the ocean. Jambaavaan was born from Brahma.

Once upon a time, Moon(Chandhra) also had went and hid in the ocean. During the churning, he also came out. Thats why, Chandhra is called the brother of Lakshmi. Since, Lakshmi is the mother to all creatures, Chandra becomes the uncle for us. Thats why its Chandha-mama.

Finally, everyone was waiting for the Amrutha. But instead of Amrutha, a most dangerous poison came out. Immediately every ran hither and tither. Eventually, they all ran to Kailasa and begged Lord Shiva to help. Lord, without much ado and without much effort, took the poison and stored it in his throat. Shiva is fair like a snow. When, He stored the poison in his throat, the throat became blue and shone like sapphire. This is quintessential Shiva. He remains mostly detached from all material activities. But, He does help anyone and everyone when they need help. And He is the final authority that people seek when they are in distress.

Now that the poison had been handled, all the Asuras and Dhevas returned to their churning. Finally, the much awaited Amrutha came out. Immediately, the Amrutha was snatched by the Asuras. Lord Vishnu called Kali to distract the Asuras by sowing seeds of division among them. Then, Asuras started fighting among themselves as to who should drink it first. This allowed, Lord to create a Maya. Vishnu took a beautiful female form named Mohini to entice, seduce and divert the Asuras.

When Asuras saw that beautiful girl, they all started flirting with her. She also flirted with them. She asked them why they were fighting and if She could help. Asuras told her that they wanted the Amrutha to be distributed among them. Asura offered Mohini to do the job. Mohini accepted the task pretending to be doing so with much reluctance. She managed to include the Dhevas also into the distribution.

She told them to sit in two separate batches. She poured the Amrutha to Dhevas, while she only dished out her enticing looks for the Asuras. Most of the Asuras were too engrossed in Mohini's wiles to realize what was happening. Dhevas knew that Mohini was Vishnu, so they were not fooled. Eventually, one Asura caught on with the ploy and changed his get up and sat in the Dheva's side. He sat between Chandhra and Surya. He managed to drink the Amrutha. But, he was identified by Chandhra and Surya. So, Mohini re-assumed Her Vishnu form and chopped the head of the Asura. The head of the Asura became Raahu and the body became Kethu.

The Asura was now immortal. He wanted some task. Lord Brahma assigned him the task of devouring the Sun and Moon at some specified times. These two i.e. Raahu and Kethu are called Chaaya grahas i.e. Shadow grahas. Graha means one which exerts pulling power on the earth. These are the two nodes. This is generally thought as the allegory.

So, the Asuras were used and fooled. With the return of Amrutha, the Dhevas became powerful, but Bali was still a great threat who needed to be neutralized.

Later, once upon a time, there was a bet between two sisters namely Kadhru and Vinatha(both wives of Kashyapa and daughters of Dhaksha). The bet was whether the tail of the divine horse that sprang from the ocean was black or white. And the one who lost the bet had to become the other's slave. Kadhru bet that the tail was black. But, the horse(uchchai-shravas) was completely white. Kadhru wanted to cheat in the bet by using her children(snakes i.e. nagas). But, the nagas refused. So, Kadhru cursed them that they all will die. Brahma also agreed with the curse because the nagas were killing many people. Then, the nagas agreed to help the Kadhru to win the bet. Kadhru won the bet by cheating. Vinatha became the slave of Kadhru. Vinatha gave birth to two eggs. She protected those eggs for a long time. But, the eggs didn't hatch. After 500 years, she broke an egg due to vexation. A person emerged from a egg. His lower part(from thighs onwards) was not formed. So, he was called un-urah. He told his mother(Vinatha) that she should have been more patient. He told her that the next egg will hatch after 500 more years and then that son will save her from the slavery. Then, Un-urah went to Surya and became his driver.

After 500 more years, the next egg hatched and Garuda was born. Garuda also became a slave of the snakes just like his mother. He carried them on his back. One day, he asked the snakes to give him a deal: he will do anything they ask, but they should release him from slavery. They told him to bring Amrutha for them. He agreed.

Garuda attacked Swarga for Amrutha. All the Dhevas tried to counter him but failed. Then, Indhra started a parley with him. Dheva-Indhra declared Garuda as the Indhra(Lord) of the birds. He asked him what was Garuda's purpose for attack. Garuda told him that he needed Amrutha to release his mother from slavery. Indhra agreed to give the Amrutha, but wanted a promise that the Amrutha wouldn't be drunk by the snakes. Garuda agreed. He took the Amrutha and started out for his place. Vishnu was impressed by Garuda that he did not want to drink Amrutha himself. So, Vishnu appointed Garuda as His vehicle and flag. Garuda wanted the snakes to be his meal. Vishnu agreed.

Garuda went back to snakes and gave them the Amrutha and got his mother(and himself) released from slavery. Snakes went to bath before they could drink the Amrutha. Meanwhile, Indhra came and took the Amrutha back. (This is the reason for the saying, Alasyam amrutham visham which means that the delay makes a poison out of Amrutha).

The desperate snakes tried to lick the Kusha grass on which the Amrutha jar was kept. Some drops of the Amrutha may have fallen on the grass, so that grass became sacred. By licking, the snakes' tongue was split.

Adhithi, mother of Indhra, wanted Dhevas to be saved from Bali. So, she started a tapasya. Eventually, Vishnu was born to her. Since, Vishnu was technically a younger brother of Indhra, He was called Upa-Indhra. He was a dwarf, so He was called Vamana.

Vamana went to Bali and asked him for a donation of 3 steps of real-estate. Bali agreed. And Vamana, the dwarf, became huge(Thri-Vikrama) and occupied the whole world. Jambavaan did circumabulations(parikrama) of Thri-Vikrama. of Then, Bali was banished to Pathala by Vishnu. Bali was not killed because Vishnu had promised Bali's grandfather(Prahalladha) that his descenders would not be killed. Vishnu promised that Bali would be the next Dheva-Indhra.

After that, Asuras became weak. They all retreated to Pathala. Bhanasura was the son of Bali.

Originally, Golden Lanka was built as the retreat for the Indhra by Vishwakarma. Raakshas under the leadership of Maali, Sumaali and Malyavantha defeated Indhra and conquered Lanka. They made Lanka as their capital. (notice the words Maali and Sumaali. Their are 2 african nations with these names. Similarly, Maya-Asura and Maaya civilization also may have connections.). Vishnu Himself came to the rescue of the Dhevas and led them in the battle. The Raakshas were defeated and they retreated to Rasa-thala. The Lanka remained abandoned. Meanwhile, Kubera was born to Vishravasu, son of Pulasthya(son of Brahma). Kubera was appointed by Lord Brahma as the divine treasurer and the leader of Yakshas and Gandharvas. He made Lanka as his capital. Sumaali sent his daughter to wed Vishravasu, so as obtain a leader like Kubera. Sumaali's daughter is Kumbhinasi. Kumbhinasi wed Vishravasu. Her son was Ravana. Ravana became the leader of Raakshas. He forcibly obtained the Lanka from his step-brother Kubera. Kubera shifted to the north in Himalayas and made Alakapuri near Kailasa as his capital. Kubera was the friend of Lord Shiva.

Bali was personally protected by the Vishnu as bodyguard in Pathala. Ravana came to Pathala also in course of his conquests. He met Bali. From the Ravana side, they tried to claim the legacy of Asuras. But, Asuras saw themselves as distinct and superior to the Raakshas. Raakshas try to see themselves as extension of Asuras. There are also Dhaanavas...

Bana, the son of Bali, had an encounter with Krushna. Bana's daughter fell in love with Krushna's son(Aniruddha). Aniruddha went to the city of Bana to meet his lover. Bana imprisoned him. Krushna Himself came to rescue him. Bana was worshipper of Rudhra. There was an encounter between Krushna and Bana. Rudhra Himself came to the rescue of Bana. And there was a fight between Krushna and Rudhra. Eventually, Krushna won. It needs to be remembered that Krushna Himself was also a devotee of Rudhra. He did a thapasya for Shiva to obtain sons. Thats why Krushna named His son as Saamba.

Some (Shaiva?)commentators say that the defeat of Rudhra is similar to Krushna taking up arms in Kurukshethra to satisfy Bheeshma.

Asuras reveal that Dhuryodhana was an Asura project. He was obtained as a boon from Lord Shiva. They had their hopes on Dhuryodhana. Paandavas are the Dheva project. So, its repeat telecast of what happened before.
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As for intermarriage, its always there. It is more a norm, than an exception.

So not only Krishna, but Arjuna also serves as charioteer. And Shalya for Karna. More datapoints to throw at the morons who keep yapping about Karna=suta (charioteer)=low caste fellow oppressed by high caste bigots.

Brahma was the charioteer of Shiva in Thripura-asura episode.

^ That 'Putana' was a viral/bacterial infection ( I am quoting from memory). Over time, was added anthropomorphic character. He analyzes varying and contradictory narrations of 'Putana' stories in making his point.

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On different but related subject: Jarasandha was very powerful and Krishna had to use all tactics at his disposal to get rid of Jarasandha (Bhima/Arjun, along with Krishna, visiting Jarasandha). Of course, later Krishna-Bhakti lore has turned this Jarasandha-Krishna long term battle 180 degree opposite (opposite of historical narration of Mahabharata or Harivamsha). Note: Harivamhsa is a mixed baggage, very enlightening ....nonetheless.

Saar,
this Puthana theory sounds a bit ridiculous. I mean if it was a disease, they could have easily said so. If one depends on such arbitrary things, then one could also hypothize that 'Jarasandha' means 'diahorrea' and 'Dhuryodhana' means 'headache'. 'Paandavas' stand for 'coconot water' and 'Krushna' means 'sesame oil'.

As for Jarasandha, he was defeated several times by Krushna. If not for Lord Krushna, he would have become the emperor of Bharath. It was Krushna alone who defeated Jarasandha. Even the Yadhavas were in Jarasandha's camp when Kansa was alive. Krushna killed Kansa and then Yadhavas rallied under Him. So, there is no 180 degree opposite. Its straight-forward.

I don't think there can be any better first-post

Evvani chE janinchu jaga mevvani lOpala nunDu lInamai
Evvani yandu Dindu paramEswaruDevvaDu? mUla kAraNam
bevva? DanAdi madhya layuDevvaDu sarvamu tAne aina vA
DevvaDu vAni nAtma bhavanIswaru nE saraNambu vEDedan!

एव्वनि चे जनींचू जॅग मेववाणी लोपल नुन्डु लीनमै
एव्वाणी यन्दु डिन्द परमेस्वरुडेव्वडु? मूल करणाम
बेव्वा? डनादि माध्य लयुडेव्वडु सर्वमू ताने आइन वा
डेव्वडु वानि नात्म भवनीस्वरु ने सरणम्बु वेडेदन!

From whom this whole universe is created; within whom 'this everything' dissolves; who ensures this fixed order of things; who is the root-cause the series of causes; who has no beginning or no end to His state of ever-being; who takes the forms of ALL - the animate and the inanimate, the visible and the invisible;who is the real material underlying the concept of ”I–MYSELF“; I seek refuge in that.

Saar,
this is the complete definition of 'God' or 'Goddess' in Hindhuism.
One who is the creator;
one in whom the whole world resides while it exists;
one in whom it dissolves;
the one who is the root cause of all things;
one who is without beginning, middle and end;
the One who is himself all things;
that one, who is my self, in that Lord, I take refuge.

This single verse contains the entire essence of Hindhuism.

i have one question to the gurus here

ever since i read the story of garuda.i have become a big fan of him.his strength,power,discipline,knowledge and wisdom is unbelievable.

i was listening to adi parva by sri changanti ji.and even he was full of praises for garuda.he even said that there are only two people who can give you instant strength when remembered one is hanuman and other is garuda. he said both are similar in many ways.

my question is . why us hindus dont pray to him as much as we pray the other gods .
why dont we see temples for him (afaik there isnt any famous one india)
why is there a rumor that we shouldn't have garuda purana book in our houses?

Saar,
Garuda is quite famous. He is worshipped in America by the original Amricans. Along with Garuda, they also worship Nagas. The Eagle symbol of the America is taken from the Amrican Indians which is actually a Garuda symbol.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1389176
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1389737

Similarly, in China, one can see the snake and dragon dance that they do very colorfully. It also seems to be related to Naga and Garuda. Nagas are famous in China and they have legends around them. They are similar to Arjuna-Ulupi love story. Ulupi was a naga princess.

In Indonesia also Garuda is famous. (See the movie Ong Bak 2. There is a repeated reference to Garuda. There is even a dance on Garuda performed by the heroine)

Even among Hindhus, Garuda is quite popular. Maybe you are asking why there are no dedicated temples for Garuda? Then, I don't know the answer. But, as others have said, Garuda is present in all Vishnu temples.

Garuda was declared as the Indhra of birds. Hanuman is the future Brahma. There is a Rudhra-amsha in Anjaneya. So, that may be the reason for His specialty.

On a related note, the word 'Indhra' means 'Lord'. Thats why there are words like Raaksha-Indhra(Lord of Raakshas), Asura-Indhra(Lord of Asura), Sura-Indhra(Lords of Sura), ...etc.

Since the word means 'Lord', it is used very often in the Vedhas. 'Indhra' is a synonym of 'Ishwara' or 'Isha'. 'Bhagwaan' also approximately means the same. So, when the word 'Indhra' is used in Vedhas, it doesn't necessarily refer to the Dheva-Indhra.

Similarly, the word 'Agni' means 'Leader'. Agre niyathi ithi Agni i.e. one who leads from the from is called 'Agni'. So, when trying to understand Vedhas, one must keep this in mind.

As for Garuda Puraana:
It can be kept in the house. Its just a superstition that some people think it should not be kept in the house.

Am now at his fourth lecture.
The fourth is on Krishna leela which starts from birth to kiiling of Kamsa. I had been exposed to short versions via BalaBhagavatam and the BR Chopra TV version in the Mahabharat serial.

But hearing Pothana's composition of Vyasa's Bhagavatam now I get how bhakti marg was so prevalent and is intoxicating to the listener. It is very mesmerising and no wonder Bhaktivedanta was able to attract so many followers thru his ISKCON.


Nilesh, I got to the Putana episode but the way its rendered its about selective infanticide by the king of all new born male babies in his kingdom..

Ramana garu,
this has been copied by the others. For example, this infanticide is copied by the Judism in Moses story. And it is also found in Yesus story of NT.
Link to a post on the topic

[SwamyG]

I bought "The Bhagavad Gita: A Sublime Hymn of Dialectics Composed by the Antique Sage Bard Vyasa" by Nataraja Guru.

I just completed the Introduction and well into the first chapter. It is a fascinating work. Nataraja Guru is the disciple of Narayana Guru. It was first published in 1961. It is be noted that Narayana Guru and Natraja Guru had some controversy surrounding the social reform in the early 20th century in the Izhava community in parts of Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

So far I like the book. As you can see from his conclusion in the Introductory chapter, his analysis is that BG is a non-religious endeavor by safe,poet philosopher Vyasa. He does bring the Indian tradition in these words:

It is in the light of the habit so prevalent among ancient classical writers in India of submerging their own identity in favor of some great name belonging to hoary Indian tradition itself, such as that of a Vasistha or a Narada, that we have to fix the authorship of Gita, vague as it already is, on to the generic and mysterious personage of Vyasa, rather than on a specific or actual person.

In the introduction, he goes to almost attack and call out the various sentiments expressed on BG - from one extreme to the other. Briefly analyses Sankara's take of BG, Vyasa's literary devices used in BG - to understanding BG, structure of each chapter, the Guru nature of Krishna, importance of a couple of chapters, Yoga, Dialectics etc.

In essence, he dismisses the religious argument and places BG at a higher level (as per him) in to a contemplative level. BRF philosophers would like this book.

Pages 69-70 from Introduction

Conclusion
The Gita is a wisdom dialogue of a non-religious and non-obligatory, contemplative and philosophical order, consciously and artfully inserted in the heart of the great epic called the Mahabhartha by the ancient Sage-Bard Vyasa; in which the rarest of possible coincidences called an absolutely just war is taken as presenting itself to be fought by its central character, Arjuna, who being a sensitive and contemplatively disposed type of soldier, is about to adopt a negative, escapist attitude of regret and retrospection when it was actually too late for him to extricate himself from the situation that had already assumed a harsh and imperatively necessary character. Arjuna suffered from a characteristic form of subtle egoism which, taking the form of a self-pity, regret or mystical agony, blurred his outlook, making him claim prematurely the high virtue of renunciation while still given to relativist patterns of thinking altogether incompatible with the thoroughly absolutist philosophy and way of life that the Gita brings out through the words of Krishna as representing the Guru and Absolute at once.

Krishna, who, besides being the Guru, is also relation, friend and charioteer of Arjuna, takes every possible measure at every possible level of life, to remove the philosophical doubts, religious scruples and psychophysical inhibitions which dimmed Arjuna's vision and clogged his spirit. Eloquently and in elevating language, Krishna preaches that rare type of unitive wisdom or Absolutic way of life known as Yoga, a mystical and intuitive path of contemplative dialectics. Established in this unitive way by which inner and outer factors of life are equalized, harmonized or neutralized. Arjuna is able to get rid of superstitious repressions and conflicts. He regains normality of outlook as a true yogi who does not particularly wish to avoid war when its is absolutely necessary, just and conducive to general happiness. Whether he adopted the way of quiet contemplative retirement portrayed in the last chapter or whether he engaged in harsh warfare is left an open question by Vyasa. Before the epic moves onwards in its grand heroic pace again, we find Arjuna a fully disillusioned contemplative ready to affiliate himself wholeheartedly as one of the counterparts of a contemplative situation in which Krishna himself is involved as representing the supremely Absolute Value.

[Nilesh Oak]

^SwamyG,

Does this author present any evidence for his contention (underlined part in quote below), or it appears to be a simple case of careless and casual Brain Fart?

Conclusion
The Gita is a wisdom dialogue of a non-religious and non-obligatory, contemplative and philosophical order, consciously and artfully inserted in the heart of the great epic[/b] called the Mahabhartha by the ancient Sage-Bard Vyasa;

[ramana]

Nilesh, Was driving back home and listening to a Telugu rendering of the pre-Yuddha paravas. What struck me is your insightful observation that Vyasa was telling an astronomical fact when refering to Arundhati walking in front of Vashista while a whole lot of ill omens are mentioned in the verse.
I guess if one has no astronomical knowledge it would be interpreted the traditional way as in ill omen. At same time your researches vouch for the facts that Vyasa tells us in the MB and buttresses it as an 'itihasa' that which happened. Great insight in using the modern mond to reinforce the MB and not undermine as it is done all the time.


Next was thinking why would Vartak think of viruses and bacteriological agents. Then recalled the Ten Commandments story where Moses calls out his GOD to bring down plagues to kill the Egyptian first born.

Unless Vartak is thinking that Moses rendering is the real deal!!

[SaiK]

is lord ram's return from vanvas the oldest reference to diwali?

[SwamyG]

^SwamyG,

Does this author present any evidence for his contention (underlined part in quote below), or it appears to be a simple case of careless and casual Brain Fart?

Conclusion
The Gita is a wisdom dialogue of a non-religious and non-obligatory, contemplative and philosophical order, consciously and artfully inserted in the heart of the great epic[/b] called the Mahabhartha by the ancient Sage-Bard Vyasa;

With all respects I am not going to answer your question because of the words 'brain fart'.

[Nilesh Oak]

With all respects I am not going to answer your question because of the words 'brain fart'.

SwamyG,

I respect your position and decision to not answer.

Regards,

[Nilesh Oak]

Nilesh, Was driving back home and listening to a Telugu rendering of the pre-Yuddha paravas. What struck me is your insightful observation that Vyasa was telling an astronomical fact when refering to Arundhati walking in front of Vashista while a whole lot of ill omens are mentioned in the verse.
I guess if one has no astronomical knowledge it would be interpreted the traditional way as in ill omen. At same time your researches vouch for the facts that Vyasa tells us in the MB and buttresses it as an 'itihasa' that which happened. Great insight in using the modern mond to reinforce the MB and not undermine as it is done all the time.


Next was thinking why would Vartak think of viruses and bacteriological agents. Then recalled the Ten Commandments story where Moses calls out his GOD to bring down plagues to kill the Egyptian first born.

Unless Vartak is thinking that Moses rendering is the real deal!!

I don't think Vartak was inspired by Torah rendering. IMO, what drove Vartak to his interpretation is the multiple (not uncommon in Indian Itihas/purana) and varied renderings of Putana episode (Bhagavat, Vishnu Purana, Harivamsha) and some renderings with many apparent exaggerations and/or inconsistencies.

He has done the same (bring out multiple versions of same stories.. e.g. Putana, but also other pasttimes of Krishna, and then try to make sense out multiple renderings. I don't think he thinks of his interpretation as the final word but thinks of it as advancement over past interpretations with the hope that future generations would research it further.
-----------------
On the other hand, would not be surprised if it later proved that inspiration for Moses story came from Putana story!

[Nilesh Oak]

is lord ram's return from vanvas the oldest reference to diwali?

Saik ji,

Don't know answer to your question.. other than the fact that Valmiki Ramyana itself does not have references to Diwali.

Does anyone know... where (which ancient document(s) refer to Diwali?
----------------
Rama's return from Vanavas matches, more or less, season of Diwali in our times, but not the Lunar month. He returned to Ayodhya on Vaishakha Shuddha 6 (Puhsya Nakshatra). (Details in upcoming... "The Historical Rama")

[putnanja]

In Karnataka, we actually celebrate on 14th day (naraka chaturdashi) and then on the day after amavasya (kartika masa 1st day, bali padyami). Naraka chaturdashi is the day that Lord Krishna is supposed to have killed Narakasura and rescued the 16,000 women held captive. We don't celebrate on the amavasya that many other celebrate as Lakshmi pooja. On the next day, which is the first day of kartika month, we celebrate it for the day that Vishnu in Vamana avatara pushed Bali to the patala loka, and since he was actually a good man, the lord granted him the boon that that day would be celebrated as bali padyami.

On Bali padyami, earlier, the women folk would make a fort out of cow dung, and everyone would worship that. That night, they would cover it as the men folk aren't supposed to see it the next day after sunrise. The women would wake up early and clear it off by the time the men woke up. These days, it is difficult to get cowdung in many cities, and many women don't want to touch that either. So that tradition is slowly dying out. In many traditional households in old Mysore area, they still do it though.

[ramana]

Atleast in Andhra families that was the same tradition of Naraka Chaturdasi. And we get to explode the patakas next day.

[Nilesh Oak]

^^ In Maharashtra, Day after Laxmi Puja, i.e. first day of Kartika is celebrated as Bali-Pratipada. The day is celebrated (I don't think it is connected to story of Bali in any form...but I could be wrong) as recognition and celebration of husband-wife relationship, where Husband gifts his wife.

[Vayutuvan]

Yes, in the "deepAvaLi wishes" thread, I mistakenly said "naraka chaturThi" which is incorrect as it is the fourth day of the paksha. It is "naraka chaturdashi" the fourteenth day of the krishna paksha and hence the next day is amavasya which is deepavaLi celebrating the victory of the forces of good (krishan bhagawan and satyabhAma) over the forces of evil (narakAsura).

[Vayutuvan]

Nilesh, is bali in "bali pratipada" in anyway related to the ritualistic sacrifice?

[SaiK]

i was thinking if diwali/deepavali has more acceptance in the festivals among various states and people zones (assume: true), then it has to be connected to mahadev too, i searched but only one reference i could find

http://www.vedicstore.com/originofdiwali.html

ord Shiva said, O Mother Lakshmi, you are the consort of Lord Vishnu, the creater and sustainer of this creation, what made you worship me with such devotion. What do you seek from me? Your devotion has overwhelmed me. I will give you any boon you wish. Ask me, O Mother Lakshmi. I am at your service.

Upon hearing Lord Shiva's plea, Devi Lakshmi expressed her desires of being worshipped on Earth in such a way that no one was worshipped in the past, nor will ever be worhipped in the future.

Lord Shiva, blessed Devi Lakshmi "Tathastu!" As you desire, so shall it will be. Lord Shiva said, from today onwards, in the Month of Kartik, of Krishna Paksha (Waning fortnight), of Amavasya (the 15th day of this fortnight), on Vishakha Nakshtra, on Guruvaar or Thursday. O Mother Lakshmi you will be worshipped in the form of Lakshmi the Goddess of Wealth and Prosperity. This occasion will be known as "Deepavali" the night of the lights. When the darkest night will be illumined with light, every home will chant your name, pray to you and seek your blessings". And so this is the origin of Diwali or Deepawali.

[Sridhar K]

In TN also narakachaturdasi is celebrated as Deepawali and not Lakhsmi pooja. The lighting of lamps happen during Kartkikai Deepam instead of Diwali.

[SaiK]

lighting of lamps happen both during diwali and kartika deepam, in my observations, but like sridhar says, the number of mud-lamps my mom light up for kartikai is 100 times more than for diwali. again this is connected to lord shiva where the light beam of shiva is never reached by either vishnu or brahma (he says a lie having thazham flower as witness - gets cursed - no temples for brahma).

the temple at arunachalam temple (@annamalai) celebrates this with grandeur. the panchabhootam kritis (buy that audio CD - sung by bombay jayshree) songs, has one of the bhootam has arunachalam idol as agni.
http://www.allmusic.com/album/panchabhu ... 0002080516

[Vayutuvan]

In Andhra region of AP, left over fireworks and firecrackers are lit up on a day called aTTla tadiya. In the morning they have a day old rice with buttermilk and onions. Also a big fire is lit at cross-roads and sisindrilu (small 1.5 inch long paper cones filled with home made rocket fuel, which when lighted up and released fly in totally unpredictable ways - quite dangerous and a lot of fun) and juvvalu (3 inch long sutli cylinders filled with home made rocket fuel and a dried spine of a coconut leaf is tied to give balance to the centre of gravity - these have to be launched into the air by hand as the spine doesn't have enough stiffness to place in a bottle- gain lot of fun but quite dangerous if released before the richer fuel kicks in).

[ramana]

So you know sisindrilu! An energetic person without direction is also called that!

The rocket you are describing is tara juvva.
Many of those are responsible for fires in villages thatched roofs.

In old Hyderabad there was a near spherical device that one lit and throw in the air. It used to have a purple flame indicating potassium permanganate. People would have jhola of them and walk the streets lighting them and throwing in the air.

with my enjeeneering knowldege used to wonder about stability! But then its cp and cg were within the spehere!

[member_22872]

Also a big fire is lit at cross-roads and sisindrilu

bogi-manta.

[Vayutuvan]

... dup ...

[Vayutuvan]

venug,

not bhOgi manta which is lit on bhOgi one day before sankrAnti. This festival is called aTtla tadiya - when people eat aTTlu (aka dOselu). In Andhra region, they have what is called pullaTTlu which we used to have 10 for a rupee in the morning just around the corner from where we lived.

ramana garu,

we used to make sisindrilu at home. If I remember right the proportions are 3/4 charcoal (which we would make my burying smoldering embers in the ground), and 1/4 surekaram (I am not sure what the chemical name of this is).

Making juvvalu (yes, it is short for tara juvvalu) of course would require lot more skill. One takes a card from a pack of playing cards, makes a cylinder. Close one end and then from the other end fill with 50% charcoal and 50% surekaram (mix with a small amount of fine iron filings for red, cooper for green, Al for white color flame plus a small amount of magnesium for sustaining the burn) and ound it with a round wooden piece and a hammer. Only 70-75% is filled in this dense fashion. A small neck/waist is made by pinching and the rest is filled with sisindri mix and the whole assembly would then be wrapped in sutli. The sisindri mix is the fuse and the neck acts as the rocket nozzle.

The pot like things you are talking about are called "pichukalu" (sparrows) - it is a small earthen pot of about 4" in dia with small opening at the top and a small slit at the bottom. Imagine a a small earthen pot - it has almost exactly the same shape. The mix is 50 % sugar and 50% potash which is filled into this small pot very carefully on top of a thin layer of sisindri mix covering the slit at the bottom. potash is fairly unstable and can explode when subjected to even medium amount of pressure so this has to be prepared quite carefully. The top is closed off with wet dung/mud mix and then they are dried in shade (hot sun might set off the darn things prematurely). To launch these suckers, one catches the rim at the top with all the five fingers palm facing down (i.e. facing the top opening which is closed off with mud), put a match to the slit at the bottom lighting up the sisindri mix. When the sugar-potash mix starts burning, you can feel the force. At that moment you have to turn the pot as if you are turning a top - a twisting motion and launch it straight up. When this goes up it almost looks like a flares (which are used in Military and rescue ops). I never launched one personally but have seen some older (college) kids do it. Looking back, I think that making and launching of these devices is quite dangerous. For one, invariably the earthen pots are not made perfectly as they are made by a potter and sold in large lots in the open market. Secondl, the mud seal at the top may not hold (which is called cheedaDamu - sneezing). Since the palm is facing the opening, people can (and have) burn their hand very badly. Big juvvalu and pichukalu are launched in marriage processions by professionals who wear some kind of a special steel fortified fire resistant glove. They launch really big ones - 3x the ones the kids would launch on deepAvaLi.

(corrected spelling and grammar)

[Nilesh Oak]

Nilesh, is bali in "bali pratipada" in anyway related to the ritualistic sacrifice?

Bali as in King Bali who was tamed (via trickery) by Batu Vaman (5th Vishnu incarnation) while King Bali was performing Yajna.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balipratipada

[Vayutuvan]

Could you please expand on the word "Batu"?

[sudarshan]

That "surekaram" sounds like either sodium or potassium nitrate, or sulphur. It's the recipe for gunpowder - charcoal + nitrate + sulphur.

[sudarshan]

Nilesh ji, also meant to ask you about one of the points you made in your Ramayana dating book. Is it ok to ask here when the book isn't out yet? It's not something to do with the main thrust of your book, it's one of the incidental details which has some interesting (for me) connotations.

[SaiK]

matrimc, in the good old kid days, i happened to go to rural karnataka - especially areas where more telugu people were there (can't remember, vague memories).. boys almost on rags, ties up cloths and drags old cloth from every house.. and these village boys used to have fun.. but they sing something still I remember little bit - pardon errors:
ramudamma ramudo!
something..patta..rumudo.
...
everamma intillo
usillamma intillo
then.. something..cheers
then someone died.. oye oye..! and they run away.. collect, rag pick and burn them. [of course, i am assuming they are making fun of someone in the song]

I have never seen anywhere like that where young kids collect just for burning and campfire fun.

[ramana]

I think batu is corruption of vatvu (upanayanam initiate)*.

I don't think it was trickery. Even Bali agreed even after Shukracharya told him who the young person. Its another thing the latter lost his eye for blocking the udakam or water from the kamandalam.
Did you want Vishnu to kill Bali the next Indra?

*Pothana's description of vamana avatara and the descriptions of the upanaynam ceremony are invoked even now while performing the samskara.

[Vayutuvan]

That "surekaram" sounds like either sodium or potassium nitrate, or sulphur. It's the recipe for gunpowder - charcoal + nitrate + sulphur.

I think you are right - I vaguely remember one of my chemistry teachers mentioning that it is some kind of sodium salt. I forgot to mention that Sulphur is one of the ingredients.

These chemicals used to be sold just at the corner kirana store or the temporary fireworks tents that would come up a month or two before deepAvaLi. They were definitely not regulated at that time (> 35 years back). IMHO, these should be regulated to prevent the danger to the limb and life of our kids.

[Vayutuvan]

matrimc, in the good old kid days, i happened to go to rural karnataka - especially areas where more telugu people were there (can't remember, vague memories).. boys almost on rags, ties up cloths and drags old cloth from every house..

Probably it was not me or my merry band of ragamuffins as I was never in Karnataka as a kid.

[Nilesh Oak]

Matrimc

Ramana Garu gave the answer to 'Batu'.

Sudarshan,

Please post your question about Ramayana incident here....

[SaiK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgtl07eFPuM
little tamil and some sanskrit needed to listen, but he explains why aditya hradayam is important very succinctly.

actually should belong to cricket thread. never knew srikkanth was so religious

[sudarshan]

Sudarshan,

Please post your question about Ramayana incident here....

It's actually not about an incident in the Ramayana. It's about your statement in the draft book about some event (don't want to reveal details when the book is not even out) happening on a Thursday, and your corroboration of that fact using Voyager.

I was under the impression that the seven-day week was traced back to the Biblical concept of God creating the universe for six days and taking a break on the seventh day. The Jewish sabbath day is on Saturday, the Christian one on Sunday.

Is the seven-day week an Indian concept, and has it been carried over for so many thousand years? That's what that particular passage in your book seemed to imply. If so, was there no "reset" of the week when the yugas changed (Treta to Dwapara to Kali)?

SaiK ji, Srikanth was a sun-worshiper even on the cricket field. His son's name is "Aditya," and he used to keep looking to the sun for inspiration during his stints at the crease.