Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

[Austin]

Coast Guard tests 14 helicopters to boost dwindling fleet

The acquisition process of 14 helicopters for the Indian Coast Guard has made some headway. The trials are due in coming months as the technical bids have been evaluated.

The purchase of new helicopters is part of the Coast Guard's plans to improve its dwindling fleet. The 14 shorebased helicopters are meant for search and rescue operations.

Among those shortlisted for trials after evaluation of technical bids is Eurocopter's EC 725 helicopter.

A twin engine helicopter, EC 725 can be used for multiple tasks, including casualty evacuation, combat and search and rescue operations.

"Eurocopter's EC 725 has been shortlisted after the technical evaluation. Flight evaluation trials, which are at the next stage, are expected to take place in the first quarter of 2014," said a representative of the company. Also in the race for the Coast Guard's contract - the bid for which was floated in November 2012 - were AgustaWestland and Sikorsky.

The helicopters are meant to be operated along the country's vast coastline spanning 7,500 kilometers.

The Indian Coast Guard, like the Indian Navy, at present flies single engine Chetak helicopters. It also operates the home-made Advanced Light Helicopters.

The new helicopters are expected to be a leap ahead of the existing fleet.

A requirement for shore-based search and rescue helicopters was projected. It can be used for multiple purposes, including reconnaissance and patrol of off-shore installations.

[chackojoseph]

Indian Navy inducts HAL made Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers

[abhik]

^^^
The ToT is probably from DRDO to the manufacturing agency.

[Viv S]

Link shows the spiralling cost overruns for the QE class of Aircraft carriers
Vikramaditya at te price we are getting it looks like a good deal.

I quoted the most recent cost in my post ($4.9 billion) not the original quote ($2.7 billion). And unlike the Vikramaditya purchase, this includes long range radar, CIWS, missiles and associated command & control system. And given that its aircraft complement is twice as large, design far more efficient, and entire assembly brand new, the Gorshkov deal doesn't end up looking like much of a bargain.

Ahh - the Queen Elizabeth. It is STOVL only - conversion to CATOBAR was uneconomical. So please add "+fortune for the F-35B".

Aside from the fact that the current cost of F-35 is hardly a fortune (which has been discussed elsewhere), it does not impinge upon the cost of the ship. It has the same 12 degree ski-jump as the Kuznetsov. You could operate Harriers, MiG-29Ks or even Su-33s off it.

[Viv S]

The Hull of such ships can easily last 50-60 years if they are maintained well the problem is the engines and electronics , considering Viki got most thing new except the hull there is no reason to believe what the Admiral is stating.

IN takes care of its ship too well reason why Viraat is still operational and sea worthy , serving two Naval flags in its entire life time.

It can't be stripped out and rebuilt the way you're suggesting, or we'd have done so with the original INS Vikrant rather than purchasing the Viraat (which too would not be retiring). Forget us, the US, UK and France would simply be reusing their carriers instead of spending staggering amounts on new ships (Ford class: $13.5 billion+).

[Austin]

^^ What I am stating is Hull can last 50-60 years if they are maintained well through out its life , Hull is not the major issue but the machinery , electronics , engine is what tends to block its sea worthiness ....then there is the trade off one has to decide if they want to add/upgrade electronics , engine and other component which is the most expensive thing to do in existing hull or continue with minor upgrade and buy a new ship.

How else do you think Viraat is sea worthy till date and if you check even Viraat has gone periodic electronic/weapons upgrade upto a point. Ofcourse replacing the engines and other associated machinery is a major task then they have to decide the trade off involved.

Ofcourse the Admiral didnt pull the number 30-40 years out of his Musharaf and he knows what he is talking about.

[srin]

Link shows the spiralling cost overruns for the QE class of Aircraft carriers
Vikramaditya at te price we are getting it looks like a good deal.

I quoted the most recent cost in my post ($4.9 billion) not the original quote ($2.7 billion). And unlike the Vikramaditya purchase, this includes long range radar, CIWS, missiles and associated command & control system. And given that its aircraft complement is twice as large, design far more efficient, and entire assembly brand new, the Gorshkov deal doesn't end up looking like much of a bargain.

Ahh - the Queen Elizabeth. It is STOVL only - conversion to CATOBAR was uneconomical. So please add "+fortune for the F-35B".

Aside from the fact that the current cost of F-35 is hardly a fortune (which has been discussed elsewhere), it does not impinge upon the cost of the ship. It has the same 12 degree ski-jump as the Kuznetsov. You could operate Harriers, MiG-29Ks or even Su-33s off it.

No arrestor cables. It was cancelled because it was too costly. Hence F-35Bs only (they sold off their Harriers).

[SNaik]

Looks like Ka-31 having a bad case of earth resonance on Teg (?)
Anybody knows when this happened?

very frightening vid. are you sure it's Teg ?

Well, it is one of Indian 11356 without doubt. The large letter T on the helipad indicates that. The first 3 Talwars were having numbers T3 to T5, this one looks like T1, thus my guess it is Teg. The Ukrainian guy who posted this seems to be in the helicopter business as his other videos also include chopper tests in Equador, for instance. Our educated guess at Balancer's forum was that he may be working for Motor Sych engine company, which is based in the city of Zaporozhye in Ukraine, which he has used as his hometown in registration with the Russian mail.ru site.

[Viv S]

^^ What I am stating is Hull can last 50-60 years if they are maintained well through out its life , Hull is not the major issue but the machinery , electronics , engine is what tends to block its sea worthiness ....then there is the trade off one has to decide if they want to add/upgrade electronics , engine and other component which is the most expensive thing to do in existing hull or continue with minor upgrade and buy a new ship.

The Gorshkov hull was launched in 1982. 50 years puts the end of life at 2032. Say 2040.. that's about 25 years in IN service.

How else do you think Viraat is sea worthy till date and if you check even Viraat has gone periodic electronic/weapons upgrade upto a point. Ofcourse replacing the engines and other associated machinery is a major task then they have to decide the trade off involved.

Viraat's operational availability over the last few decades has been poor, to say the least. There's a price to paid for operating a ship that old.

Of course the Admiral didnt pull the number 30-40 years out of his Musharaf and he knows what he is talking about.

The admiral is not wrong. He's an officer that belongs to a navy that will have flogged a ship with a lifespan of 25 years, all the way upto its 60th year. Despite, the spate of new inductions recently, for most its existence it has operated a number of refurbished vessels. It did so for the same reason that the IAF flogged the MiG-21 well past its sell by date. There was no money for alternatives and unlike some other countries, the services had to be ready to fight an actual war, for better or worse, with everything they could possibly muster.

You could flog the ship for 50 years if you had to. By the same metric you could drag the QE class ship to the dawn of the next century. But unless something catastrophic happens to the economy in next two decades, the Navy's admirals in 2040 will fortunately not be forced into the same choices.

[member_23370]

The QE will not be dragged into any century it will be moth balled immediately. It is a classic white elephant project so UK can strut about pretending to be a so called world class power when in reality they can simply US's bitch.

[Viv S]

No arrestor cables. It was cancelled because it was too costly. Hence F-35Bs only (they sold off their Harriers).

The F-35B was acquired, after a brief dalliance with the CATOBAR variant, to save on the cost of integrating the EMALS and allowing for the aircraft to serve on both QE class ships. An arrestor wire would have been a relatively cheap and simple addition to the carrier.

[Viv S]

The QE will not be dragged into any century it will be moth balled immediately. It is a classic white elephant project so UK can strut about pretending to be a so called world class power when in reality they can simply US's bitch.

Assuming that was in response to my post; the QE and F-35B will both enter service. The UK's geopolitical standing is irrelevant.

[member_23370]

No QE will enter and Price of wales will be moth balled. The cost has already ballooned without the expense of F-35b being taken into account. Wait another 2-3 years and you can see UK navy dwindle down to 10 escort ships for this white elephant.

[NRao]

The potential to dwindle certainly exists. But, that is a function of economies, not technologies. What if the economies head in the right direction? Which they can (it applies to pretty much all EU nations and the US too).

[Rahul M]

would people please stop discussing the QE in this thread ?
one or two posts for reference is ok, but not this.

Well, it is one of Indian 11356 without doubt. The large letter T on the helipad indicates that. The first 3 Talwars were having numbers T3 to T5, this one looks like T1, thus my guess it is Teg. The Ukrainian guy who posted this seems to be in the helicopter business as his other videos also include chopper tests in Equador, for instance. Our educated guess at Balancer's forum was that he may be working for Motor Sych engine company, which is based in the city of Zaporozhye in Ukraine, which he has used as his hometown in registration with the Russian mail.ru site.

thanks. I am guessing he got hold of the vid when the engine came for repairs ?
how badly damaged do you think it is ? repairable or totaled ?

[Philip]

Footnote on the QE2 class CVs.The historic Portsmouth yard will cease building warships for the RN after centuries.Believe you me,one day in the future,as in the imperial era,when Malabar teak was used for Nelson's warships,RN carriers will be built in Kerala,in Cochin or another Indian yard!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 24263.html

End of the line: Defence giant BAE cuts 1,775 jobs as it halts shipbuilding at historic Portsmouth yard
1,775 jobs axed across country in its naval ships business after 'significant' reduction in workload
Adam Withnall
Wednesday 06 November 2013

This is going to make India one of the last few nations building carriers.The US,Russia,China,India,France,Italy and Spain apart from the UK still have the capability.newcomers to the list are japan and soKo,whose new small flat tops are de-facto STOVL carriers which will use the JSF when available.

[John]

I quoted the most recent cost in my post ($4.9 billion) not the original quote ($2.7 billion). And unlike the Vikramaditya purchase, this includes long range radar, CIWS, missiles and associated command & control system. And given that its aircraft complement is twice as large, design far more efficient, and entire assembly brand new, the Gorshkov deal doesn't end up looking like much of a bargain.

Not apples to oranges that is domestic program vs export which means kickbacks, tariffs, Currency factor, higher profit margin for all the players and vendors involved = much higher costs usually 50-100%. Just look at scorpene vs s-80 cost comparison. So in other words if they built a CVF program for export for IN it would be at least 7.5 billion+.

[Viv S]

Not apples to oranges that is domestic program vs export which means kickbacks, tariffs, Currency factor, higher profit margin for all the players and vendors involved = much higher costs usually 50-100%. Just look at scorpene vs s-80 cost comparison. So in other words if they built a CVF program for export for IN it would be at least 7.5 billion+.

Possibly. Then again, the QE hasn't been managed particularly well, labour costs are on the higher side and the choice of sub-systems makes it hard to achieve economies of scale. Plus you're referring the price of an at-cost acquisition rather than a fire-sale for the PoW.


Nevertheless, the point was to illustrate the fact that cost of the Gorshkov and its refurbishment was hardly a bargain, as repeatedly suggested by Philip. A contract for the similar class of ship awarded to Daewoo, Hanjin or even Northrop Grumman, would have resulted in a new and superior vessel in the same time-frame at a comparable or only slightly higher cost.

[Eric Leiderman]

Except for Northrop Grumman how many aircraft carriers of the 40k class and above have the other two shipyards built?
Do you realistically expect Northrop Grumman to have built a vessel of those dimnsions for India (5 years back)
Forget the tech side , just the politics and optics would make the project unachievable

Anyway this is all hypothetical as one of the army generals said "u fight with what u got,......"

Bargain might not be the right word to bandy about what it implies is one side of the contractractual partner got shafted.
What was implied was it was a good deal considering the following points.
1) Availability 2) price 3) freedom on choosing the eqipment that went with the platform
4) the air wing was a bargain

there are more points than the 4 above but Vikramaditya is our ship now and she is the best

[Austin]

Viv S , I will take the Admirals word over yours and I tend to agree with what he says since I am aware that how it is.

[Austin]

Indian Navy emerging as a major air force

[Viv S]

Except for Northrop Grumman how many aircraft carriers of the 40k class and above have the other two shipyards built?

Do you realistically expect Northrop Grumman to have built a vessel of those dimnsions for India (5 years back)
Forget the tech side , just the politics and optics would make the project unachievable

No carriers but plenty of civilian ships in the 100,000 ton class (the Triple-E will be 400K+)

And a conventionally powered carrier from Northrop Grumman (a modified America-class for example) five years was very much doable. There's unlikely to have been any more political opposition than to say... the P-8I sale four years back.

Bargain might not be the right word to bandy about what it implies is one side of the contractractual partner got shafted.
What was implied was it was a good deal considering the following points.
1) Availability 2) price 3) freedom on choosing the eqipment that went with the platform
4) the air wing was a bargain

(1) Other sources were available
(2) Much higher than expected
(3) Most vendors give the option of customizing the product (the Israeli equipment we normally add would not have been an issue)
(4) The ship was supposed to be 'free' in return for the MiG order. The Russians would hardly have vetoed a sale if the ship wasn't included.

there are more points than the 4 above but Vikramaditya is our ship now and she is the best

[Viv S]

Viv S , I will take the Admirals word over yours and I tend to agree with what he says since I am aware that how it is.

You'll notice I did not in fact contradict the admiral. Merely pointed out that by the same metric, a new ship would last for 60-70 years.

[Austin]

The ship would but not the electronics and machinary nor the spares and big small things like that keeps the ship going and then ripping the entire thing and filling it up like they did with Groshkov will all this will cost a bomb the hull is the least costly in the matrix of thing.

Reason why you see the IMS Vikrant floating around and not breaking up.

INS Vikramaditya will remain sea and battle worthy for atleast 35-40 years and likely with ships of this type it will go 2 - 3 major refits during this 40 years and much more minor ones for routine maintenance activity. AFAIK Russian have guranteed spare support for 30 years as part of the deal.

Beyond that the ship may not go to sea as much as they may want to in order to preserve the life of machinary and electronics which has certain guranteed working hours.

[Karan M]

Indian Navy emerging as a major air force

Good report. IMHO they need to ramp up ASW and AEW&C assets even more.

[Rahul M]

get land based CABS AEW&C + AAR birds.

[Philip]

Guys,I know sometimes thinking outside the box is a "thought too far",but reading Austin's post/report,and the delay in the NLCA arriving-perhaps 5 yrs. from now would be the earliest induction,what about using/developing a naval version of the Hawk if funds permit? It could be a useful A-4 class combat trainer that could fly off the carrier's decks making it an even better naval combat trainer,which could have export potential too.

[pragnya]

Guys,I know sometimes thinking outside the box is a "thought too far",but reading Austin's post/report,and the delay in the NLCA arriving-perhaps 5 yrs. from now would be the earliest induction,what about using/developing a naval version of the Hawk if funds permit? It could be a useful A-4 class combat trainer that could fly off the carrier's decks making it an even better naval combat trainer,which could have export potential too.

as versus naval LCA which is already in trials, you want naval HAWK to be planned, funds allocated, redesigned, executed, tested, productionised and put into service?? seems 15/20 years to me atleast. this when you say naval LCA will take 5 years??

[Viv S]

The ship would but not the electronics and machinary nor the spares and big small things like that keeps the ship going and then ripping the entire thing and filling it up like they did with Groshkov will all this will cost a bomb the hull is the least costly in the matrix of thing.

That being the case (i.e. cheap hull), it would have been simpler still to commission a new hull instead of appropriating the Gorshkov's which is hardly modern in terms of its design efficiency, signature management, survivability or upgrade potential.

Reason why you see the INS Vikrant floating around and not breaking up.

Its not breaking up doesn't not imply that its seaworthy.

INS Vikramaditya will remain sea and battle worthy for atleast 35-40 years and likely with ships of this type it will go 2 - 3 major refits during this 40 years and much more minor ones for routine maintenance activity. AFAIK Russian have guranteed spare support for 30 years as part of the deal.

Only 2-3 refits was not implied in the admiral's statement. That's an assumption you're making. The Viraat for example has been been through five refits in the last 20 years.

[Viv S]

Guys,I know sometimes thinking outside the box is a "thought too far",but reading Austin's post/report,and the delay in the NLCA arriving-perhaps 5 yrs. from now would be the earliest induction,what about using/developing a naval version of the Hawk if funds permit? It could be a useful A-4 class combat trainer that could fly off the carrier's decks making it an even better naval combat trainer,which could have export potential too.

The BAE Hawk has a naval variant - T-45 Goshawk. Built by Boeing, in service the US Navy, it was in production until 2009 IIRC. Given that the Tejas has a two seat naval variant in development, there's no particular need for a naval Hawk. However for the record, if it needed to be acquired, we would not have to develop such a variant, the design (probably tooling as well) could be bought outright.

[Austin]

That being the case (i.e. cheap hull), it would have been simpler still to commission a new hull instead of appropriating the Gorshkov's which is hardly modern in terms of its design efficiency, signature management, survivability or upgrade potential.

Yes they could have done that , either built a new hull or may be Gorshkov hull was not an issue for the navy.

[Pratyush]

Indian Navy emerging as a major air force

Quoting from the link

The navy is on track to operate more than 300 fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft. These including 45 MiG-29K/KUBs; over 50 Tejas LCAs; 8-12 Boeing P8 multi-mission aircraft; 36 Dornier 228 utility aircraft; 36 medium range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft; 5-10 long range maritime reconnaissance (LRMR) aircraft; 90 medium helicopters; 59 naval utility helicopters; and more than 30 airborne early warning helicopters.

This is the first time I am seeing such a number for 50 Tejas.

[pragnya]

Guys,I know sometimes thinking outside the box is a "thought too far",but reading Austin's post/report,and the delay in the NLCA arriving-perhaps 5 yrs. from now would be the earliest induction,what about using/developing a naval version of the Hawk if funds permit? It could be a useful A-4 class combat trainer that could fly off the carrier's decks making it an even better naval combat trainer,which could have export potential too.

The BAE Hawk has a naval variant - T-45 Goshawk. Built by Boeing, in service the US Navy, it was in production until 2009 IIRC. Given that the Tejas has a two seat naval variant in development, there's no particular need for a naval Hawk. However for the record, if it needed to be acquired, we would not have to develop such a variant, the design (probably tooling as well) could be bought outright.

it was offered by the Boeing to the IN in 2006 but they did not go for it.

[Philip]

Prag,really? A pity .Yes,in retrospect it may have been better to have worked out a deal for the Gorky + a new carrier based upon the broad contours of the design,with major improvements.Two for the price of 1-and-a-half what?

[Aditya G]

Hawk is not the only aircraft in our fleet with naval variant ....

Guys,I know sometimes thinking outside the box is a "thought too far",but reading Austin's post/report,and the delay in the NLCA arriving-perhaps 5 yrs. from now would be the earliest induction,what about using/developing a naval version of the Hawk if funds permit? It could be a useful A-4 class combat trainer that could fly off the carrier's decks making it an even better naval combat trainer,which could have export potential too.

The BAE Hawk has a naval variant - T-45 Goshawk. Built by Boeing, in service the US Navy, it was in production until 2009 IIRC. Given that the Tejas has a two seat naval variant in development, there's no particular need for a naval Hawk. However for the record, if it needed to be acquired, we would not have to develop such a variant, the design (probably tooling as well) could be bought outright.

[SNaik]

http://rutube.ru/video/c56271d6ed60b080 ... /?ref=logo

[nachiket]

Hawk is not the only aircraft in our fleet with naval variant ....

Notice the catapult. With its anemic engines it would be impossible to fly it off a STOBAR carrier.

[Austin]

http://rutube.ru/video/c56271d6ed60b080 ... /?ref=logo

Looks like she is doing tight turns making her tilt at an angle.

Any pictures of the control room below deck ?

[Philip]

Yes forgot that the Goshawk was carrier capable too.However,can both the Goshawk and naval Jaguar take off from a ski-jump with a reasonable payload? If the NLCA bombs,could the Jaguar upgrades consider a naval variant too,or would it be too inferior to the option of just buying more 29Ks for commonality.

[kit]

http://seabreacher.com/seabreacher-x/

maybe useful for the indian marine commandoes !

http://seabreacher.marketingwc.com/wp-c ... ating4.jpg


pulse jet propulsion just like the ones in virginia or borei class