Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

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brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

British respect for the dead, the buried, and the memorials for the fallen especially if they happen to be Indian opponents and as ably supported by other Indians:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/ ... 1060042527
Object description

On Connaught Drive, Singapore, Indian Engineers demolish a memorial erected in honour of the Japanese-sponsored Indian National Army, and the local populaton cheer.

Full description

Medium close-up inscription: ‘Provisional Government of Azad Hind – This stone was laid by Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose on 8th July 1945’. Wider shot showing the memorial, with a small crowd gathered. The base of the memorial with a line tied around it; Indian Engineers position guncotton charges. Major Donald Brunt (Royal Engineers) checking the fuses. Close-up of the fuse being lit. Wide shot from the other side of the road, the cameraman partly shielded by a tree, as the charges explode. Troops of the 17th Dogra Regiment push over the monument (marked ‘Itmad’ on its larger face) with poles; camera spins to show a civilian crowd clapping and cheering enthusiastically; a Malay policeman is present. The clock of the nearby tower, showing 6pm. A burly Indian naik (corporal) of 5th Indian Division, with a Mk 5 Sten gun with bayonet fitted, apparently looking pleased with the destruction of the monument. The naik with two other soldiers, who are noticeably smaller than him. A guard of honour of the 17th Dogra Regiment dressing back a few paces. A brigadier in a kilt (Brigadier Patrick McKerron?) approaches and takes the salute. Medium close-up of the brigadier speaking.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by eklavya »

Talking of memorials to the fallen built by the British:

Image
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

An interesting indication of the degree of honesty and integrity of the British and Brtish controlled armies and their commanders as to whether they really controlled, checked or took measures against the atrocities carried out by their British troops in India: this is about the sack and rape of San Sebastian - a very European, and white resided town in 1813.

The Indian connection to this rape-raid is because of the whole campaign being formally under Wellesley-Wellington. Regarding the actual raid, the blogger quotes from the "Anglo-Irish" Napier - to discount criticism that otherwise it would be propaganda and victimhood.

http://thewildpeak.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... sebastian/
This storm seemed to be a signal of hell for the perpetration of villainy which would have shamed the most ferocious barbarians of antiquity. At Ciudad Rodrigo intoxication and plunder had been the principal object; at Badajoz lust and murder were joined in rapine and drunkenness; but at San Sebastian, the direct, the most revolting cruelty was added to the catalogue of crimes. One atrocity of which a girl of seventeen was the victim, staggers the mind by its enormous, incredible, indescribable barbarity. Some order was at first maintained, but the resolution of the troops to throw off discipline was quickly made manifest. A British staff-officer was pursued with a volley of small-arms and escaped with difficulty from men who mistook him for the provost-martial of the fifth division; a Portuguese adjutant, who endeavoured to prevent some atrocity, was put to death in the market place, not with sudden violence from a single ruffian, but deliberately by a number of English soldiers. Many officers exerted themselves to preserve order, many men were well conducted, but the rapine and violence commenced by villains soon spread, the camp-followers crowded into the place, and disorder continued until the flames following the steps of the plunderer put an end to this ferocity by destroying the whole town.
the ‘town council, cathedral chapter and inhabitants’ of San Sebastian compiled a report or ‘manifesto’ which they sent to the ‘Spanish nation’ describing what happened. Its full title is: Description of the atrocities committed by the Anglo-Portuguese troops in Saint Sebastian, 31 August 1813 and in the following days, exposed to the eyes of the Spanish nation by the municipality, chapter and inhabitants of the town. ( Tolosa 1813). They affirm: ‘We take it on our own head as to the exact truth of this relation that we present to you and that we have all signed.’ What follows is my inadequate verbatim translation of some extracts from this report. I have taken it from a book published in France in 1813 which contained a French translation of the Spanish report. I apologize if my rendition of a two hundred year old French version of a Spanish text has lost something in translation, but I think you will be able to get an idea of what happened to the people of this Basque town:

The town of San Sebastian had been set alight by the allied troops who had besieged it, after these troops had unleashed a horrible sack and its inhabitants had experienced a treatment such as one has not had any idea in civilized Europe…

… The patriotism of the loyal inhabitants of San Sebastian, for a long time suppressed by the severity of the enemy (the French), shone out in many ways, as did the joy and the affection with which the allies were welcomed; but these, insensible to this demonstration, as sincere as it was pathetic, responded to it by taking rifle shots at these same crossroads and balconies from where these felicitations came, and on which a large number of inhabitants perished, victims of the expression of their love of country, a terrible presage of what was to follow…

These horrors were only a prelude to many others, even the memory of which makes one quiver. Oh day forever unhappy; Oh cruel night!… At the extremity were found the enemy, cornered at the foot of the chateau, to save themselves from the unprecedented excess that the pen refuses to describe.

The pillage, the massacre, the rape were pushed to an unbelievable point; and what we discovered for the first time at the fall of night, after the retreat of the French into the Chateau, were limitless scenes of horror. From every quarter we heard the cries of distress of women who were being raped, without regard either to their tender youth or to their respectable age; wives outraged under the eyes of their husbands, girls dishonoured in the presence of their parents; one girl was the victim of the brutality of a soldier which happened on top of her mother’s dead body… Other crimes more horrible yet were committed on this day, and it’s only a sense of ‘modesty’ which prevents us naming them.

Throw a veil over this sad tableau, we’ll put our sights on another, no less deplorable: We have seen innocent victims having their throats cut…. even people of renown. Don Domingo de Govocehea, an old and respectable churchman, and a great many others, who we will not name, were murdered; the ill-fated Joseph de Larramaga was killed while trying to save the lives of a young girl, who had been raped, and her young son, by holding them in his arms.

A huge number of people were dying each day from the bad treatment that they had received. The citizens who were neither killed nor wounded were to suffer in a thousand ways; many of them stripped and left entirely naked.

… Pursued by the soldiers, they envied the fate of the people who had found a momentary asylum on the roofs or in the ‘pigsties’…

These excesses lasted several days after the affair, without anything being done to stop it… They appeared authorized by the commanders, since the goods stolen in the town were sold publically by the English and Portuguese in full view, and right next to, the military head-quarters.

When we thought the spoliation had finished, the allied troops found that the flames weren’t making enough progress; they fed them with a whole mixture of artefacts that they threw into the cauldrons, by which means they propagated the fire with frightening rapidity…

In this manner the town of San Sebastian perished.

Of the six hundred and some houses that were contained within the ramparts, there were only thirty-six left. It is remarkable that those saved were all adjoining the Chateau that the enemy occupied. The two parochial churches have also been conserved, as they served as quarters and hospitals for the victors. All the rest have been delivered to the flames… Fifteen hundred families were without bread and shelter eking out an existence worse than death.

Goods, furniture, merchandize, shops, boutiques, all had fallen prey to rapacity or incendiary… San Sebastian exists no more.

Oh unhappy town! Honour of Guipuscoa! You who had given such proof of constancy, who had regarded the English as liberators, could you believe that you would be destroyed by the same hands which should have broken your chains! To how many dangers were the inhabitants exposed during the five years that the French occupation had lasted!

When, on 25 July, we saw English and Portuguese prisoners arrive, we wanted to help them; the most delicate women ran to the hospital to lavish them with linen, food and care; the recompense for such fidelity has been the destruction of our town.

When the survivors came to survey what remained of their town, they found, as was reported,
only thirty-six houses and two churches left standing. The houses had been spared because they were being used by British and Portuguese officers when they were attempting to force the surrender of the French holed up in the Chateau – the French capitulated on 8 September. A census of inhabitants showed that before the siege there were about 5,500 people in the town, the massacre had reduced this to 2,600!
We often hear tell that Wellington was a great enforcer of order and military discipline and that he punished any pillaging in the most severe way. After San Sebastian, when his allied army was moving into France, he declared that he had not come to France to inflict pillage on the local people. Supposedly this was in reference to the pillaging and attacks of Spanish troops on the local French (Basque) population. He sent most, though not all, of the Spanish troops under his command back to Spain.

Wellington was not present at the fall and destruction of San Sebastian. The besieging army was under General Thomas Graham. But not only were no measures taken against the British and Portuguese troops who had run wild, but no mention was ever made of what happened in any official letters written by either Graham or Wellington. On 8 September, Graham wrote to Wellington: ‘My Lord, I have the satisfaction to report to your Lordship, that the castle of San Sebastian has surrendered.’ After giving more military details, he adds: ‘Thus, giving your Lordship another great result of the campaign, in the acquisition to the allied armies of this interesting point on the coast, and near the frontier.’ He also enclosed a copy of the terms of surrender agreed with the French.

Wellington sent the news to Lord Bathurst, the Secretary of State for War, on 11 September: ‘The town of San Sebastian was taken by storm on the 31st August, and the garrison capitulated in the castle on the 8th.’ No mention of any ‘atrocities’. But on the same day Wellington wrote to the Spanish General Freyre: ‘Sir, I shall be very much obliged to you if you will send the civil engineer of Biscay…. in regard to the repairs of the place of San Sebastian.’ He also requested that the civil magistrates sent masons, carpenters and ‘common labourers’ to ‘perform the works necessary’. He was no doubt fully aware of what had happened to the town.
There is in San Sebastian a memorial to the British liberators of the town in 1813. It is located on the slopes of Monte Orgullo (Urgull) and was unveiled by the Spanish Queen on 28th September 1924. The two inscriptions read, in both Spanish and English: ‘England has confided to us her Glorious Dead, Our Gratitude will Watch Over Their Eternal Repose’, and, ‘In memory of the Gallant British Soldiers who gave their lives for the greatness of their own country and for the Independence of Spain’.
Note that Wellesley had ran across much of central and south India just a couple of years before. He carefully however seems to have avoided taking action against his british soldiers raping and sadistically torturing white Europeans, and the atrocities do not find any mention in his dispatches. If they are state secrets to be preserved and/or destroyed in the national interest of UK - then also it shows what the British elite or state machinery usually hide and pretend about.

Is it that unlikely that he also turned a blind eye to his British soldiers' atrocities in India against people they were already starting to represent as racially inferior and that the many regional stories of horrendous atrocities committed by the Brits of EIC wars, right up to the possibly well-planned provocation and atrocities leading to 1857 war?

Note also that what distinguished the Brits in many of the continental wars, was the particular sadism of the troops - over and above the usual straightforward rape and massacre and loot, to which the Europeans were used to - to note specially as distinctively "cruel" behaviour.

Suddenly in case of India they all behaved professionally and saintly at the very same period?!!!
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

Does anyone know why the memorial to the fallen at Jallianwallahbag could onlee be raised after independence and not while the Brits formally ruled India? The land was acquired early on, but the memorial had to wait until the 50's and then too no survivor could be found to be included in the trustee board even as a gesture and whose first three members for life were three Congressmen who were not that prominent in the forefronts of the protest movements that grew up in response to the massacre.
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

The reaction of the current Spanish elite or state to San Sebastian is revealing as quoted in the previous post:
There is in San Sebastian a memorial to the British liberators of the town in 1813. It is located on the slopes of Monte Orgullo (Urgull) and was unveiled by the Spanish Queen on 28th September 1924. The two inscriptions read, in both Spanish and English: ‘England has confided to us her Glorious Dead, Our Gratitude will Watch Over Their Eternal Repose’, and, ‘In memory of the Gallant British Soldiers who gave their lives for the greatness of their own country and for the Independence of Spain’.
It is apparently neglected by townsfolk of San Sebastian - who obviously carry on the memories of the atrocity handed down over generations, but their voices or opinions do not count or do not get represented at the state or regime levels - as in India. The British themselves or grateful elite powers in other countries - have put up many memorials honouring the fallen of the British, or armies under British command. Brits honour those memorials which glorify their own, but have scant respect or honour for those of their enemies - as the honourable royal Dickie Mountbatten showed in Singapore. States, regimes, or elite of countries which might feel compelled to look upon the Brits favourably or as benefactors will preserve British erected monuments honouring those who served the British cause.

But is the voice of regimes or elites grateful to the Brits the only voice to be honoured?
JE Menon
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by JE Menon »

Gents kindly take historical issues to appropriate thread. This is for current news and discussion.
panduranghari
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by panduranghari »

Many war memorials are being pillaged and looted in the old blighty by people wanting the expensive copper and other metals. I get a strange sense of Schadenfreude when I say, 'it serves them kind of right'.

I dont understand why Indians who were born and raised in India but now live in UK wear poppies for remembrance day? They clearly are not aware of the history.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Lalmohan »

you can wear poppies to remember the Indians who fought and died in the world wars
panduranghari
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by panduranghari »

Lalmohan wrote:you can wear poppies to remember the Indians who fought and died in the world wars
I do not really agree to this. They were the same people who subjected atrocities to the Indian population under the order of their colonial masters.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Haresh »

panduranghari wrote:I dont understand why Indians who were born and raised in India but now live in UK wear poppies for remembrance day? They clearly are not aware of the history.
Maybe they are aware and as Lalmohan says they are remembering the Indian troops!
I always use it as an opportunity to remind the average Brit that India made a huge contribution and that it is called the "Forgotten Army" for a reason!!!
Lalmohan wrote:you can wear poppies to remember the Indians who fought and died in the world wars
you can wear poppies to remember the Indians who fought and died in the world wars
This is one of the reasons I wear one. My uncle fought in Burma and other relations/friends of my father fought in North Africa/Italian campaign.

I also wear it for a friend who was an officer and killed in Afg.
panduranghari wrote:I do not really agree to this. They were the same people who subjected atrocities to the Indian population under the order of their colonial masters.
Were they really???? It was a volunteer army, it is always the poor who voluteer for these things, as it is an escape from poverty. They were fighting in foreign theatres, how many were used for internal duties?

I have more respect for those who joined for this reason than those who served in the Colonial Administration for personal gain, the sort of people who give the outward image of being patriotic Indians, who attended the best private schools, Doon, Lawrence etc, who send their own kids to the best schools and use their influence to get them jobs, which they are totally incompetant at, who think too highly of themselves that they could never spend two evenings a week to teach children in a slum school to read and write. I have met a few of these, daddy is a corrupt judge, grandfather was a judge as well and served under the British.
The son of a senior FM official who's grandfather did the same. These sort of people are not fit to wipe the boots of a Indian or even a British soldier. The ones I met were very quick to call offensive names and make comments.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Philip »

Atrocities? Bangladesh must rank as one of the worst ever in history,where 400,000 Bengali women were raped,millions massacred,when Indian troops entered some cantonements,our troops were speechless as naked women came out ,the barbaric Paki pathologic perverts left a massive pile of the naked corpses of women at a crossroads,all sexually tortured.And the successors of these monsters is what the US is overtly and covertly planning to bring back to power in B'Desh! A journo who was embedded with our troops,was so scarred by the utter inhumanity he saw, said he could not sleep or eat for days and when he returned to Delhi looked like a ghost to his family.

A storm is brewing in London after Jeremy Paxman,famous TV newswallah savaged PM Cameron.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 31226.html

Downing Street demands apology after Jeremy Paxman calls David Cameron 'complete idiot'

Jeremy Paxman, the combative Newsnight anchor, is at the centre of yet another row after calling the Prime Minister a “complete idiot” for his First World War centenary plans.

Asked about the forthcoming events next year, Mr Paxman said the PM had likened the commemorations to last last year’s Diamond Jubilee celebrations.

He said he was ‘troubled’ by Mr Cameron “talking about how millions of pounds were going to be spent marking this anniversary” and the fact that he had “compared it with the celebrations for the Diamond Jubilee.”

Speaking to the BBC chat show host Graham Norton, Mr Paxman said: “Therefore people get the idea that somehow this is going to be celebrated. Well, only a complete idiot would celebrate such a calamity.

“Three quarters of a million men never came back to this country. Millions of men served. Millions of men were wounded mentally and physically. No one would celebrate that. It was just Cameron’s clumsy use of language.”

It is believed that Mr Paxman was referring to a speech the Prime Minister gave in October 2012 at the Imperial War Museum in London; a speech he used to announce that more than £50 million had been allocated for next year’s commemoration of the outbreak of the war.

But a senior Downing Street aide, Rob Wilson MP, has written to the BBC Director-General Lord Hall demanding an apology from the long-serving Newsnight presenter.

According to the MailOnline, Mr Wilson wrote: “Mr Paxman should make a full and public apology for his comments. He should make it clear to BBC viewers and licence fee payers that his remarks were inaccurate and ill-founded.

“This sneering and aggressive approach is one of the reasons many people are put off politics.”

The veteran presenter, famous for his forthright views and somewhat belligerent interview style, is used to controversies - he was criticised by the deputy PM Nick Clegg last week for being “sneering about politics”, while at the same time making a good living from Westminster.

And he was also attacked for admitting he once did not vote because the choices were so “unappetising”.

In an interview with the Radio Times he said: “At the next election we shall have a choice between the people who've given us five years of austerity, the people who left us this mess, and the people who signed public pledges that they wouldn't raise student fees, and then did so – the most blatant lie in recent political history.”

Mr Paxman had recently given the comedian Russell Brand a hard time during a Newsnight interview because the comic “can't be arsed to vote”.

A BBC spokesperson said: “We have not yet received Mr Wilson's letter but when we do we will respond in due course.”
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by eklavya »

panduranghari wrote:I dont understand why Indians who were born and raised in India but now live in UK wear poppies for remembrance day? They clearly are not aware of the history.
If you live in the UK, then the present day British armed forces are protecting you, regardless of where you were born and raised. Its the same logic if you live in America, Canada or Australia.

The money raised by the Poppy Appeal actually goes to support the families of soldiers in the present era, not the colonial era.

I am happy to contribute a few pounds every year directly to the welfare of the British soldiers who fought and are fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, etc.

This does not, even in the slightest, make me less of an Indian or forgetful of the terrible injustice and criminality of the colonial era.

In the fight between the British Army and the Taliban, I am not a neutral observer, I am an outright and committed supporter of the British armed forces.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-inv ... ppy-appeal
Last edited by eklavya on 12 Nov 2013 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
sanjaykumar
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yes I am sure Australia aborigines as well others elsewhere are appreciative.
eklavya
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by eklavya »

^^^
Particularly those that served their country.
panduranghari
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by panduranghari »

eklavya wrote:
panduranghari wrote:I dont understand why Indians who were born and raised in India but now live in UK wear poppies for remembrance day? They clearly are not aware of the history.
If you live in the UK, then the present day British armed forces are protecting you, regardless of where you were born and raised. Its the same logic if you live in America, Canada or Australia.

The money raised by the Poppy Appeal actually goes to support the families of soldiers in the present era, not the colonial era.

I am happy to contribute a few pounds every year directly to the welfare of the British sol diers who fought and are fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, etc.

This does not, even in the slightest, make me less of an Indian or forgetful of the terrible injustice and criminality of the colonial era.

In the fight between the British Army and the Taliban, I am not a neutral observer, I am an outright and committed supporter of the British armed forces.

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-inv ... ppy-appeal

You might be a committed supporter of British armed forces, but I am not. And they don't protect me. I am on my own here. Just like every foreigner in England is. Besides I don't remember when was the last time British fought for the rights of others.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by panduranghari »

Haresh wrote: I have more respect for those who joined for this reason than those who served in the Colonial Administration for personal gain, the sort of people who give the outward image of being patriotic Indians, who attended the best private schools, Doon, Lawrence etc, who send their own kids to the best schools and use their influence to get them jobs, which they are totally incompetant at, who think too highly of themselves that they could never spend two evenings a week to teach children in a slum school to read and write. I have met a few of these, daddy is a corrupt judge, grandfather was a judge as well and served under the British.
The son of a senior FM official who's grandfather did the same. These sort of people are not fit to wipe the boots of a Indian or even a British soldier. The ones I met were very quick to call offensive names and make comments.
Right tell me how RBL has supported Indian widows or disabled veterans?


These are their ethos

The main purpose of the Legion was straightforward: to care for those who had suffered as a result of service in the Armed Forces in the Great War, whether through their own service or through that of a husband, father or son. The suffering took many forms: the effect of a war wound on a man's ability to earn a living and support his family; or a war widow's struggle to give her children an education.

But even those who had come through the war relatively unscathed struggled with employment. As a result of the war, Britain's economy plummeted and in 1921 there were 2 million unemployed. Over six million men had served in the war - 725,000 never returned. Of those who came back, 1.75 million had suffered some kind of disability and half of these were permanently disabled. To this figure then had to be added those who depended on those who had gone to war - the wives and children, widows and orphans as well as the parents who had lost sons in the war, on whom they were often financially dependent.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

There is a lot of appreciation from Aborigines down under. Really. Onlee that people have to look beyond the ANZAC version of reality. [The Allied victimhood - all "atrocities" by the Japanese are elaborately mentioned - none whatsoever by the Allies].

As for Canadian portion of HM's dominions, the feelings of "Aborigines" now about their service and their rewards are also well documented. One sample is here (and not that "far back in time" either).
As a reward for fighting, the Canadian Soldier Veteran's Settlement Act allowed returning soldiers to buy land at a cheap price. However, many of the Aboriginal soldiers were never offered nor told about the land entitlement. Some returned home to find the government had seized parts of their own reserve land to compensate non-Native war veterans. Whole First Nations communities still mourn the loss of the thousands of acres of prime land they were forced to surrender.
http://www3.nfb.ca/enclasse/doclens/vis ... 43&about=1
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

Just one unfortunate group of heroes fighting the Talebs to have been betrayed by someone manning the audio stream:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... chest.html
'I'll put one in his head, if you want': Tape reveals moment three British soldiers 'murdered Taliban fighter by shooting him in the chest'

The alleged execution in September 2011 captured on a helmet camera
Audio recording reveals gunshot and sound of Afghan man moaning
Marine A, B, and C 'dragged him through field before firing into chest'
Marine A heard saying: 'There you are. It's nothing you wouldn't do to us'
'This doesn't go anywhere. I just broke the Geneva Convention,' he added

By Martin Robinson and Ian Drury
PUBLISHED: 15:29 GMT, 7 November 2013 | UPDATED: 01:30 GMT, 8 November 2013
A tricky decision to make : is it okay or not to perform within the "letter of the law" while fighting Talebs? [all British coercive forces always operate strictly within the letter of the law.]
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by sanjaykumar »

I understand the Canadian contingent found the Americans came to Afghanistan to make war, which is exactly what they did-brutal and messy.


'..there you are. It's nothing you wouldn't do to us'


Much as I abhor violence and war, there is a certain logic to this. (Which is why global conflict should be settled by friendly bouts of arm wrestling).
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Haresh »

panduranghari wrote:Right tell me how RBL has supported Indian widows or disabled veterans?
I would assume that if they now live in the UK and are British citizens then they would be supported some how, I don't know.

Would the Indian equivilant of the Legion not be responsible for supporting Indian vetrans in India??

In short I wear one out of respect for men who fought, and as I said before I always use it to remind the average Brit about the service of Indians in both wars.

Also I don't think that Indians and people of Indian origin should behave the same way as the paks/RoP'ers and be disloyal or disrespectful to the country they choose to live in.
Airfares are cheap and airports are plentiful, if people cannot be loyal/respectful then they should leave, which is what the paks should do. Indians are much respected in the UK despite what you may read in some sections of the UK media. :D
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by sanjaykumar »

Choosing not to commorate a savage mutual slaughter by civilised Europeans does not disrespect Britain or Canada.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by sanjaykumar »

Commemorate.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Lalmohan »

the majority of indian officers who volunteered in WW2 did so because they sincerely believed that it was the best way to push for indian independence, this is very clear in their memoirs
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by panduranghari »

^^ but remembrance day was the commemorate the great war of 1914-1918 where too many British soldiers died in Flanders in Belgium. The war of 1940-1945 was useful for India as it broke the British back.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Lalmohan »

rememberance day started after WW1, but has included every (british) war since
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

More UK soldiers die from suicides than fighting Afghan Taliban
http://zeenews.india.com/news/south-asi ... 62193.html
Last Updated: Sunday, July 14, 2013, 16:34
London: A study has revealed that there have been more suicide cases among British soldiers in comparison to deaths while fighting the Afghanistan Taliban.

The study found out that the traumatic stress of the time spent in Afghanistan has taken toll on the lives of the British soldiers. BBC reports that 21 serving soldiers killed themselves last year, along with 29 veterans. According to the report, some of the soldiers' families claimed that the men did not get enough support from the army. Meanwhile, the Army diagnosed many soldiers with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

The number of soldiers with PTSD has more than doubled in the past three years among those who served in Afghanistan, according to MoD figures.
ANI
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 267169.cms
IANS | Nov 5, 2013, 05.45 PM IST
LONDON/MUMBAI: Britain has more than 10,000 millionaires from the among 2.72 million Muslims who live and work in the country, contributing 31 billion pounds (Rs.3 trillion) to its economy, a new report says.

"The Muslim Pound - How Muslims Add Value to Britain's Prosperity" was released by the Muslim Council of Britain ahead of the just-concluded 9th World Islamic Economic Forum Meet 2013 in London.

Stunned by the report, a group of Muslim intellectuals in Malegaon, a (Muslim-dominated town in Maharashtra's Nashik district), held a seminar Tuesday to discuss its content, said one of their leaders, Aleem Faizi, executive editor of Unmid.com. "We plan to invite some of the people (involved with the report) to help us and implement measures to make the Muslims here also prosperous," Faizi said on the phone.

The report said that when many Muslims left their native countries to choose an alien land, they started out as labourers in industries like cotton mills, looms, steel and automobiles to re-shape post-war Britian - unsure if their dreams would ever materialize. Five decades on, there are more than 10,000 millionaires and thousands of others are engaged in higher managerial, administrative and professional occupations.

"From coffee houses in Elizabethan London to curry houses in modern day Britain, thousands of Muslim-owned businesses have made a significant contribution to the UK economy, and, by extension, the cultural life of Britain," the report said.

In London alone, an estimated 33.6 percent of small to medium enterprises are Muslim-owned. With over 13,400 Muslim-owned businesses, they have created more than 70,000 jobs and some have gone to become big household brand names.

"There is an estimated 10,000 Muslim millionaires in the UK with liquid assets of more than 3.6 billion pounds. And there are more than a dozen British Muslims listed in the 2013 Sunday Times Rich List of the most affluent in the UK. Some estimate the amount that the community is contributing to the UK economy to be about 31 billion pounds," the report revealed.

Another 114,548 Muslims in England and Wales occupy higher managerial, administrative and professional occupations with successful British Muslim entrepreneurs contributing not only to the country's prosperity but also to the fabric of British society and act as role models, the report said.

As per the 2011 Census, London had a total population of around eight million including one million Muslims.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by disha »

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/s ... 364854.ece
So it has been over the last week with the Roma in Britain. The Liberal Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, provided his disclaimer. “I am a liberal,” he said. “I think one of the great things about our country is that we are open-hearted and generous-minded.” Describing the Roma as sometimes “intimidating” and “offensive,” he also said: “We have every right to say if you are coming to live in Britain ... you have got to be sensitive to the way that life is lived in this country.” Sensitivity is a great thing, but mythology is dangerous. One wonders how the Roma should indicate their inculcation into British values. By encouraging their teens to get hammered on a Friday and Saturday night and start brawling? Or by stigmatising the next group of immigrants who come after them? For that too is the way “life is lived in this country.”
Also from the above article, the role of Swedes in forced sterilization.
The truth is the Roma have far more to fear from non-Roma than vice versa. Gassed by the Nazis, forcibly sterilised by the Swedes, recently expelled by the French, they have long been persecuted. In the last six weeks, two Roma families in Ireland, accused of stealing children because they didn’t sufficiently look like them, had their kids taken away from them by the state only to have them returned. In Serbia, skinheads tried to snatch a blonde child from in front of his house for the same reason.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by rohitvats »

The posts about BIA and attendant stuff has been moved into IA History Thread.

Regards,
Philip
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Philip »

Should also be in the SL td.,but posted here to show how myopic our diplomacy is and how the Brits famed foreign office seldom lose an opportunity to score.Cameron not only reinforced his international reputation as being pro-active in foreign policy and human rights,but also played to his home gallery showing himself as a forthright leader not afraid to pull his punches.The glee from the Eelamite diaspora is an added bonus ,who will be used by Britain's overseas intel agencies to pursue their interests in the island and subcontinent.

http://www.asianage.com/columnists/came ... s-show-306

Cameron stole India’s show
Kishwar Desai
Mr Cameron has stolen a march over India, which should have been the one to take an aggressive stand over the Tamil issue and actually carried the battle forward, engaging through dialogue and diplomacy

While India pondered over how to treat Sri Lanka at the Commonwealth meet in Colombo, ultimately it was British Prime Minister David Cameron who walked away with the laurels, the headlines and possibly even the Tamil votes. Pitching himself into a difficult situation, Mr Cameron managed to steal the publicity from what could have been just another routine meeting of the heads of state. In fact, by visiting Jaffna and commiserating with the locals who claim that more than 40,000 were killed or are missing following the Army operation four years ago,
Mr Cameron has definitely won space in the hearts of over 150,000 disaffected Sri Lankan Tamils who live in the UK.
This group has been extremely active for a while, making their grievances known quite vehemently both to the political class (through sustained lobbying) as well as to the common Londoner (through street protests). For them, the fact that Mr Cameron not only met their families but also ticked Sri Lankan President Mahinda Rajapakse would have come as a huge relief.
Moreover, since he has also given the Sri Lankan government four months to conduct an investigation into human rights violations — before he takes up the case internationally — the tough talk has certainly been welcomed by the Tamil groups in the UK. Many think Mr Cameron has stolen a march over India, which should have been the one to take this aggressive stand over the Tamil issue and actually carried the battle forward, engaging with Sri Lanka through dialogue and diplomacy.
While the results are awaited, at least it diminishes worries that CHOGM does not focus on human rights violations. But could it also be that the Brits feel they are on a moral high ground and can ethically debate this, while other countries, uncertain about their position, prefer to keep a censorious silence?

Onto cheery news. As electric sledges flood the skies above Oxford Street, the slugfest to grab the shoppers is mostly taking place in the virtual world. But while tempting commercials celebrating this have been launched everywhere, the UK has been seized by a baking mania and perhaps one thing which might not be bought online from shops will be the legendary Christmas cake.
The recent shows on television, such as The Great British Bake Off have apparently driven the sales of ingredients for the cakes to the highest level ever. The Bake Off, which saw tears and tantrums alike, grabbed an audience of over nine million but the debate over how long before Christmas should the cake be actually left to mature is yet to be resolved.
Glamorous chef Nigella Lawson has suggested it should be baked a whole year ahead, according to some reports and then frozen. Others think it’s not a bad idea to do it months ahead because that’s when the ingredients are much cheaper. But one thing that they all agree on is that the cakes need to be “fed” constantly with brandies such as cognac, after being baked. The time for this “feeding” ideally should be at least three months, to get a correct flavour. So the good news is that those of us who haven’t baked as yet can do so at least for next year.

Up to now, no one can deny that the media has been extremely kind to the Duchess of Cambridge, Kate Middleton. All that suddenly changed about a week ago when she appeared in public taking a routemaster bus along with her husband, the Duke of Cambridge, for London Poppy Day events held to support ex-servicemen. The press which had showered her with compliments following the christening of her son for her slim-again figure (and boy George’s composure), took a rather shockingly rude tone.
They pointed out that Kate’s brow was furrowed, and worse, her grey roots were showing despite her beautifully flowing hair. It seems they have decided that she is simply not allowed to be a normal 33-year-old new mother who might not find the time for beauty parlours and intensive make up anymore. But this is the price of being a celebrity and the paparazzi can be ferocious. For the rest of us, however, if a few grey hair and wrinkles denote a drop in the standards of the Perfect Princess, frankly it will be a relief.

Calling forth all fans of P.G. Wodehouse now: Get ready to tally ho and what not! Perfect Nonsense based on his characters of Jeeves and Bertie Wooster is now playing at the West End, though to a mixed response. Of course, comedy is always difficult to do and adapting well-known and well-loved characters from a book might be a huge risk, which is why this has been so rarely done. Yet, given that Wodehouse wrote 96 books, it is astonishing that this is apparently only the second attempt at putting that hilarious couple of Wooster and Jeeves on stage! What ho?
The writer is an award-winning author
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by rsingh »

^^
It is not about grandstanding,it is about preserving harmoney. We will have our own moment free Scots.
We did the right thing. We sent the message that war crime are not to be tolerated but we didn't give lecture to the Lankans.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by eklavya »

Hundreds of British muslims appear to be fighting in the Syrian civil war (on the side of the terrorists) and many will return "home" with their newly acquired skills!
Briton killed fighting in Syria civil war

A British Muslim has been killed fighting against Bashar al-Assad's forces in Syria, his family in London have said.

Mohammed el-Araj, who was in his early twenties, is only the second Briton to have been named and confirmed as dead while fighting in the civil war. Araj, who spent 18 months in prison for violently protesting outside the Israeli embassy in London in 2009, was killed in Syria in mid-August.

Commenting on general numbers, a government spokesperson said: "We are aware of 200 UK-linked individuals of concern who have travelled to Syria, but the true number is likely to be higher."
Four Britons 'killed fighting in Syrian civil war with Al Qaeda rebels'

It is estimated there are between 200 and 350 Britons who have travelled to Syria to fight.
British spies have also warned about ‘jihadi tourism’ in Syria and the threat young extremists pose when they return home.

It is feared they could radicalise others on their return and train them in how to use weapons.
50 Syria Militants Could Return to Wage Jihad in UK, Claims Intelligence Source

Up to 50 British jihadists may have returned to the UK to plan terrorist attacks, after receiving weapons training and combat experience in the Syrian civil war.

A security source told the Sunday Times that MI5 was tracking a number of individuals who are believed to have fought for al-Qaida-linked jihadist groups against the forces of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by anupmisra »

brihaspati wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 267169.cms
IANS | Nov 5, 2013, 05.45 PM IST
At first glance, something didn't gel right with this report. I checked another source (London Evening Standard) and the numbers are correct. So, why the big whoopee by the brits to celebrate something so mundane? Here's what the numbers show:
...the Muslim Council of Britain released an assessment of the Muslim contribution to the British economy, estimating that we have more than 10,000 Muslim millionaires, with liquid assets of more than £3.6 billion. There are 13,400 Muslim-owned businesses in London, the report said, creating more than 70,000 jobs and representing just over 33 per cent of Small to Medium Enterprises in London.
There are some 2.78 million Muslims in Britain
Lets do some basic math:

1) 10,000 millionaires out of 2.78 Million muslims makes it 0.36% of the muslims are millionaires (but what qualifies as a millionaire?).

2) 10,000 millionaires with liquid assets of 3.6 Billion Pounds makes it an average of £360,000 per millionaire. Really, so these are all paper millionaires? Maybe the council homes they live in are worth the extra £640,000?

3) 13,400 SMEs create 70,000 jobs @ 5.2 jobs per enterprise. Counting and deducting the one job held by the owner and one by his son or wife of this average enterprise, that makes it 3.2 jobs per enterprise. Many of these workers are other friends and family. So, how do these enterprises qualify as medium scale?

Checking another source (Small Business Statistics, here's what I found relevant to the obvious cooking of the statistics above:

1) There were an estimated 4.9 million businesses in the UK which employed 24.3 million people, and had a combined turnover of £3,300 billion
2) SMEs employed 14.4 million people and had a combined turnover of £1,600 billion
3) With 841,000 private sector business, London had more firms than any other region in the UK
4) Definition: micro: 0-9 employees, small: 10-49 employees, medium: 50-249 employees

So, if the number of muslim owned "businesses" in London were 13,400, that would equate to 1.5% of the businesses in Londonistan and not 33%. Secondly, with an average of 4.2 employees, the muslim-owned businesses are largely micro enterprises (and not SME).

Conclusion: this was just a "feel good report" that aims to placate a certain section of the brit society by painting an incorrect picture about a group of people that thrive on dole and social benefits. Sure, there are rich muslims from the middle east who have investments in the UK, and some Indian muslims who have worked hard to create multimillion $ businesses that serve the Indian communities.

But the report is, by and large, factually incorrect.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by anupmisra »

rsingh wrote:^^
It is not about grandstanding,it is about preserving harmony.
Maybe that was the strategy discussed by MMS and Cameron when the latter was in India before leaving for Colombo.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Philip »

So much for Cameron's self-righteous,sanctimonious humbug on display in Sri Lanka at the CHOGM summit ,as apart from its war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistamn,the truth of secret British hit squads killing unarmed Irish civilians has just exploded! The Lankans must be raising their glasses of coconut arrack in these revelations.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... mbers.html

Secret British Army hit squad posed as dustmen and meths drinkers to 'shoot and kill unarmed IRA suspects'
Soldier said the people he killed were hardened criminals not innocents 'we were hunting down hardcore baby-killers'
Former members of the Military Reaction Force (MRF) have revealed that they wore disguises as they tracked down potential terrorists in Belfast
The unit, which was disbanded in 1973, would allegedly patrol west Belfast around the clock and would shoot suspected IRA members
Ministry of Defence has referred disclosures to police
Allegations made in BBC Panorama programme, Britain's Secret Terror Force, to air tonight
By Anna Edwards and Lucy Crossley

PUBLISHED: 08:26 GMT, 21 November 2013 |

A former British solider at the centre of revelations about the killings of unarmed civilians in Northern Ireland has denied his secretive unit acted outside the law.

Tonight's BBC Panorama programme claims that an undercover unit of the British Army in Northern Ireland tasked with 'hunting down' IRA members killed unarmed suspects.

In the episode, entitled Britain's Secret Terror, former members of the Military Reaction Force (MRF) revealed that they wore disguises as they tracked down potential terrorists, labelled by one as 'hardcore baby-killers', in Belfast as the Troubles raged in the early 1970s.
Scroll down for video
Clearing up: British Army Troops deployed on the streets to combat rioting on the Falls Road, West Belfast during The Troubles, Northern Ireland in August 1976

Revelations: Alongside uniformed British soldiers, shown here working to combat rioting in West Belfast, 1976, undercover unit, the Military Reaction Force, was also in operation and hunting IRA members. The unit has today been accused of killing unarmed suspects

The unit, which was disbanded in 1973, would allegedly patrol west Belfast around the clock in unmarked cars and would shoot suspected IRA members.

Panorama also alleges that there were several ‘drive by’ shootings carried out by MRF soldiers, in which people were killed and wounded - even though there is no independent evidence that any of them were armed or were members of the IRA.

Speaking publicly for the first time on Panorama, some ex-members of the unit admitted firing on groups of people on the streets of Belfast even if they could not be sure they were carrying weapons.

One former MRF member has admitted killing, but denied operating outside the rules of engagement which covered the British Army in Northern Ireland at that time. The ex-intelligence officer, who wrote the book ‘MRF Shadow Troop’ which prompted the Panorama investigation, protects his identity for fear of IRA reprisals and now operates under the name Simon Cursey.

'We were there to protect the innocent people of Northern Ireland,” said Cursey, who was recruited to the MRF at its inception in 1972.

More...

Calls for inquiry into British shoot-to-kill policy in Ulster
Exposed: The army black ops squad ordered to murder IRA's top 'players'
Victims' fury at call to end prosecutions of IRA murderers: Backlash at suggestion of 'amnesty' for crimes committed before Good Friday Agreement

'If people got in our way and they were armed, they were dealt with. It’s as simple as that. I can not recall any situation whereby any member of our unit ever opened fire on innocent or unarmed people.

'But we were right in the middle of the hard areas, surrounded by terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. We were working alone or in very small units most of the time, We did not have the support of a whole platoon with tanks or guns. When you are alone like that, you can’t mess around.

'I killed people. But I’ve never had nightmares about it or a loss of sleep. Nothing, nothing like that. The people we were dealing with killed women and children. They murdered people for nothing.

'We were acting a counter-terrorist unit and, as far as I am concerned, we never did anything wrong. We did not target innocent people, we did not need to. We never opened fire on innocent people, we just targeted people with weapons. There were so many people running around the streets of Belfast with weapons that we did not need to target innocent people.'

The Panorama revelations come after the Attorney General in Northern Ireland proposed an 'amnesty' for those suspected of scores of unsolved murders during the Northern Ireland Troubles.
'Secret British Army hits' on IRA - Watch extracts from BBC...
'Brutal killers': An IRA gunman holding an assault rifle in Belfast

Seven former MRF members of the force spoke to Panorama reporter John Ware about their involvement in the unit, while three of them appeared on camera, although they were heavily disguised.

The three men told Panorama that they believed they had saved the lives of many innocent people who were caught in the crossfire of the Troubles.

Speaking anonymously, the former members claimed they had posed as Belfast City Council road sweepers, dustmen and even 'meths drinkers' to conduct their operation.

One former member of the unit said: 'We never wore uniform - very few people knew what rank anyone was anyway.

'We were hunting down hardcore baby-killers, terrorists, people that would kill you without even thinking about it.

'We were not there to act like an army unit, we were there to act like a terror group,' said one former MRF soldier.

'We were there in a position to go after IRA and kill them when we found them.'

The men addressed each other by first name and dispensed with ranks and dog tags.

One described their mission as to 'draw out the IRA and to minimise their activities... if they needed shooting, they'd be shot'.

All seven former MRF soldiers acknowledged that they sometimes acted in contravention of the ‘Yellow Card’ - the strict rules carried by every soldier, which spelt out the circumstances under which they could open fire and stay within the law. Generally, lethal force was only lawful when the lives of security forces or others were in immediate danger.

However, another MRF soldier explained: 'If you had a player who was a well-known shooter who carried out quite a lot of assassinations…

He added: 'It would have been very simple, he had to be taken out.'

All the soldiers denied that they were part of a 'death' or 'assassination squad'.

The Ministry of Defence said it had referred the disclosures to police.

Panorama identified 10 unarmed civilians shot, according to witnesses, by the MRF:

Brothers John and Gerry Conway, on the way to their fruit stall in Belfast city centre on April 15, 1972;

Aiden McAloon and Eugene Devlin, in a taxi taking them home from a disco on May 12, 1972;

Joe Smith, Hugh Kenny, Patrick Murray and Tommy Shaw, on Glen Road on June 22, 1972; and

Daniel Rooney and Brendan Brennan, on the Falls Road on September 27, 1972.

The Ministry of Defence refused to comment on claims that soldiers involved in specific shootings had been members of the MRF, and said that the armed forces serving in Northern Ireland were accountable to UK and humanitarian laws.

According to the Panorama programme, the MRF consisted of around 40 men, hand picked from across the British Army, and was disbanded 40 years ago after just 18 months in operation.

Patricia McVeigh told the BBC her father, Patrick McVeigh, had been shot and killed by plain clothes soldiers on May 12, 1972, as he was stood by a car in west Belfast.

The father of six was a member of the Catholic Ex-Servicemen's Club, whose members had been manning barricades in Belfast.

daniel rooney.jpg

Victim: Daniel Rooney, 18, was allegedly killed by members of an MRF patrol on September 26, 1972. The Army claimed he was an IRA gunman but the IRA have never claimed him as a member. Forensic tests at the time showed he had not fired a weapon

The 44-year-old died two minutes later after being hit in the back - despite being unarmed.

Mr McVeigh's family have been campaigning for justice for him ever since.

'He was an innocent man, he had every right to be on the street walking home. He didn't deserve to die like this,' she told the programme.

Although soldiers involved in the shooting of Mr McVeigh made statements to the Royal Military Police saying they had been shot at, Panorama says there is no evidence that McVeigh or anyone beside him were members of the IRA.
Accused: Patrick McVeigh was killed by an MRF patrol who claimed he was holding a weapon. Forensic tests were negative and his family have been fighting for 40 years to clear his name

Accused: Patrick McVeigh was killed by an MRF patrol who claimed he was holding a weapon. Forensic tests were negative and his family have been fighting for 40 years to clear his name

Tony Le Tissier, a Major in the Royal Military Police, told Panorama: 'They were playing at being bandits, they were meant to be sort of IRA outlaws. That’s why they were in plain clothes, operating plain vehicles and using a Thompson sub-machine gun.'

The MRF soldiers told Panorama they agreed to be interviewed because they believed their role in the fight against the IRA had gone unrecognised.

The police are currently re-investigating Bloody Sunday, with relatives of those killed having long campaigned for the soldiers allegedly involved to be prosecuted.

John Larkin QC, the Attorney General in Northern Ireland, has called for an end to 'prosecutions, inquests and other inquiries' into deaths before the 1998 Good Friday Agreement.

The 1998 Omagh bomb, which happened after the Good Friday Agreement was signed, would not be covered by Mr Larkin's suggestion.

Mr Larkin said this would not amount to an amnesty - the pre-1998 offences would still be crimes but they would no longer be prosecuted.

Ruling out an amnesty, David Cameron told the Commons it would be 'rather dangerous' to block possible future prosecutions.

Former US diplomat Dr Richard Haass is trying to achieve political consensus on a number of issues as yet unresolved during the peace process – one of which is how the province addresses the legacy of its violent past and the seemingly endless unanswered questions over killings carried out by all sides.

Mr Larkin outlined his controversial proposals in a submission to Dr Haass.

An MoD spokesman said on the claims that the MRF shot unarmed civilians: 'The Armed Forces served with full accountability to the law and the MOD continues to support and cooperate fully with all ongoing investigations dealing with Op Banner legacy issues.

'The UK has strict rules of engagement which are in accordance with UK Law and International Humanitarian Law. These applied to operations in Northern Ireland.

'Soldiers were at all times subject to general criminal law on the use of force which was made clear to them in training and before operations; specifically on the use of the Yellow Card which clearly explained the circumstances in which it was permitted to open fire.

'Where allegations of criminality are involved it is up to the Police Service of Northern Ireland to consider whether any investigation is necessary and, if appropriate, to take it forward.
Justice: Patricia McVeigh, daughter of Patrick McVeigh, told the programme her father was an innocent man

Justice: Patricia McVeigh, daughter of Patrick McVeigh, told the programme her father was an innocent man

'The Ministry of Defence has cooperated fully with their inquiries.

'Whilst the Armed Forces and MoD recognise the contentious nature of certain issues relating to its involvement in Operation Banner (1969-2007), the invaluable work and personal sacrifice by tens of thousands of military personnel contributed to establishment of the framework allowing today’s political progress and peace.'

Speaking today, Colonel Richard Kemp said that thousands of British Army soldiers stuck to the rules of engagement in Northern Ireland, but said that where there was evidence of murder it should be investigated.

'Thousands of forces went through Northern Ireland and stuck to the Yellow Card, to keep a soldier operating within the law. It may be that some didn't,' he said.
Investigation: Panorama reporter John Ware at the scene of the fatal shooting of Daniel Rooney

Investigation: Panorama reporter John Ware on the Whiterock Road, Belfast, where it is alleged that fruit sellers John and Gerry Conway were mistaken for IRA gunmen and shot by plain clothes soldiers on April 15, 1972

Reconstruction: Glen Road in Belfast, where Joe Smith, Hugh Kenny, Patrick Murray and Tommy Shaw were killed on June 22, 1972

Reconstruction: Glen Road in Belfast, where Joe Smith, Hugh Kenny, Patrick Murray and Tommy Shaw were killed on June 22, 1972

'Soldiers often speak with bravado, and I wonder how many people on the programme say that they shot people themselves.'

He added: 'If there is evidence that soldiers acted unlawfully they need to be charged. But I also believe at the same time that all the cases of alleged murder should be investigated with the same vigour.'

Colonel Kemp said the behaviour of British Army soldiers should be 'beyond reproach' but added troops were operating in a war zone and issues were 'not as black and white as it appears in 2013'.

Speaking today Miss McVeigh said: 'There was nothing brave about shooting an unarmed man and the fact that my father was shot in the back shows they didn't follow the Yellow Card rules,' she said. 'These men were forensically tested (to show they were unarmed). These men were compensated by the Ministry of Defence but no one was charged with any crime ever.'

She added that she wants the men responsible to stand trial.

'That is what we expect - some form of justice. When you kill someone you have to be brought to court no matter how long ago that was.'

Panorama: Britain’s Secret Terror Force is on BBC One 9pm on Thursday 21st November.
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by brihaspati »

Philip ji,
all UK armed services, intel wing, police, army, always operate within the constraints of the law, and therefore whatever the MRF did was okay by some British law, even if you and I do not know of the specific law. These kind of elimination activities are person and identity specific. There must be different laws for different people and identities which in turn must be legally valid as a principle anyway.

Also this particular bit was sort of common knowledge, and appeared in various reports at least over a decade ago - even if parts were suppressed. People were simply unwilling to acknowledge their existence.
Haresh
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Haresh »

Gateway to terror: British Islamic preacher Anjem Choudary 'sent hundreds to join al-Qa’ida in Syria'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 60883.html

French spies and a neo-Nazi plot to kill Abu Hamza

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... Hamza.html
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Lilo »

Haresh wrote:Gateway to terror: British Islamic preacher Anjem Choudary 'sent hundreds to join al-Qa’ida in Syria'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 60883.html
....
^ How many are David Headley types going to "their Pakistan" for training , I wonder.
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Post by Haresh »

Lilo,

I am sure their hundreds/thousands of them.
The UK/US governments do not care.
They are only terrorists if the kill white Brits/Americans.

It's ok to kill Russians/Israeli's/Indians/Serbs etc.

I hope it doesn't happen, but these chickens will come home to roost. Probably in a shopping centre. :(
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