Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[nikhil_p]

I feel vindicated!! Wow. This was actually attempted? Why can't this be done now with far more advanced technologies including lighter and yet stronger cases made of composites.

Well as you said, as we are into more advanced tech which allow us the carry the missile why it has to be dragged?
To put it colloq. if you can carry and run why to do the hardship of dragging the luggage through the mud?

That is if it was towed. What if it is kept on the body of the sub like a parasite?

As you mentioned, there are are few examples like USS Virginia. But you haven't mentioned the purpose why you want to carry a missile as parasite? What are you trying to achieve?

PIC of USS Virginia carrying 'parasite' sister sub:

The 'parasite' module (even 1 missile) might enable even our Kilo's or HDW's to carry missiles to the nearest point of launch.

Yes, it does affect the dynamics of the submarine, but if properly designed to be as conformal to the hull as possible, such a module, in theory, could actually enable even a Diesel Electric/ AIP sub to double up as a missile carrying sub - affording a second kill capability. I have put my thoughts in a sketch during a conference I was attending.


apologies for the delayed response. I have been extremely busy over the weekend!

[ramana]

Please take these to the newbie thread.
Thanks.

[Vipul]

India Halts VSHORAD Contest To Weigh Stinger Offer.

ndia has halted the procurement process for a very-short-range air defense (VSHORAD) system while the Defence Ministry considers a Raytheon proposal to sell the Stinger on a government-to-government basis, an Indian Army source said.

The original VSHORAD tender of 2010 has not been shelved, added the source, but if the Raytheon proposal is accepted, it could be canceled.

Saab, MBDA and Rosoboronexport are competing in response to the tender and are awaiting the downselect since completing the requisite trials nearly a year ago. Army sources said Saab is the frontrunner after the trials.

Raytheon’s proposal to supply the Stinger system was received nearly three months ago, the source said, and the Defence Ministry began seriously considering it after Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Washington in September, the source said.

While no Raytheon executive here would comment whether the Stinger offer has been made, the source said Raytheon has even proposed a possible joint development of the Stinger VSHORAD system with India’s state-owned Bharat Dynamics.

The Stinger would also form part of the package for the 22 Apache attack helicopters the Air Force selected. Boeing’s Apache edged out Russia’s Mi-28 for the US $1.2 billion Air Force contract last year.

India is also considering mounting Stinger missiles on the 210 Mi-17 helicopters the Air Force has contracted with Russia, the source said.

Under the government’s existing proposal, the Army plans to buy 5,175 VSHORAD systems with technology transfer expected. Out of these, 2,300 systems would be acquired fully built, 1,260 in a partially constructed condition, and the remaining will be license-produced in India.

The VSHORAD system must be able to engage aerial targets day and night, have an effective range of 6 kilometers and be able to strike targets at an altitude greater than 3,000 meters. The Army wants to replace its aging Russian-made Igla air defense systems and wants a manportable VSHORAD weighing less than 25 kilograms.

An executive with one of the competitors claimed that its system far exceeded the Staff Qualitative Requirements, adding that they are awaiting the results of the downselect after the trials.

[Singha]

So why didnt raytheon not respond to the competitive tender. Its a bad idea to go fms when options are available. This is not c17 or p8i case.

[Prem]

Aint the stingers programmed to ignore F16 and other Massa made military Maal?

[Karan M]

The Stinger is also not the best VSHORAD out there either. What the heck is wrong with MMS and co? He cant get anything in return from Washington and is constantly giving them freebies. He is seriously the worst PM we ever had, and even beats Deve Gowda, IKG and the rest.

[tushar_m]

People Stinger may sting us on the price front but transfer of tech & local production is too good of opportunity to pass not to miss the quick buy.

[saumitra_j]

People Stinger may sting us on the price front but transfer of tech & local production is too good of opportunity to pass not to miss the quick buy.

So exactly what technology would get transferred? Would appreciate it if you could let us know.

[Singha]

we will get a set of components and beautifully crafted and illustrated instructions on how to use the supplied tools to assemble. and a $200 mil annual service contract with raytheon contractors based onsite.
no need to translate from the russian screwdriver manuals.
BDL will be happy to get guaranteed work and profits without having to slog any more than minimum.

[saumitra_j]

BDL will be happy to get guaranteed work and profits without having to slog any more than minimum.

Singha, that is precisely the point which those who support technology transfer do not appreciate. Past experience has been that we have learned nothing through these tech transfer deals. And on top of that, we have the yanks here who would subject us to hajaar restrictions on the usage of the product, forget about any crucial technology being given to us.....

[Karan M]

Tech transfer of Stinger to BDL is already giving me belly laughs. Looks like under MMS & co, India has to become a vassal state of the Khan and ask them for everything - massa, can we use this against x country please and not y? Even Jalashawa was to have inspections to make sure we didn't misuse that old tub
Seriously, this fetish for FMS deals claiming "process is broken" when its not being followed deliberately after umpteen trials, its just a big joke.

[Austin]

SAAB RBS-70NG is the best of the lot in VSHORD competition , Mistral and Igla-S are more or less equal.

[member_20453]

I think if Joint development is on the offing, should be interesting, I feel may be the offer is very tempting. Normally they have avoided single vendor deals when enough competitors are available, but them putting on hold a large multi vendor deal to have a look at the stinger seems interesting. However, may be joint developement talks of a new version Indianized with perhaps new seekers and significant TOT. Lot of tempting offers were made by unkil recently. Let's also keep in mind apart from the IGLA-S and Stinger, all other systems like Mistral and RBS-70 are not truly MANPADS. Mistral and RBS-70 - 87 kg (Stand + Sight + Missile) are heavy and requires more people to carry & deploy, Stinger is light weight (14kg including launcher + missile), easily carried by 1 with another carrying some spare missile and is over-all pretty good. It is also considerably cheaper. Moreover, it comes equipped on the Apache and I like that it will go on the Mi-17 and hopefully LCH as well. I am sure for the same price we'll get 20% more Stingers than RBS-70 or Mistral. I for one support this idea and I hope we go for it.

[dinesha]

India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 749188.cms

The joint venture between India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Israeli Aerospace Industry to manufacture Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR SAM) and Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MR-SAM) has turned out to be a non-starter.

[merlin]

India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 749188.cms

The joint venture between India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Israeli Aerospace Industry to manufacture Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR SAM) and Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MR-SAM) has turned out to be a non-starter.

Again, its Avinash Chander who is saying that everything is fine . Hope it does not turn out like that IOC-2 in September assertion

[tushar_m]

People Stinger may sting us on the price front but transfer of tech & local production is too good of opportunity to pass not to miss the quick buy.

So exactly what technology would get transferred? Would appreciate it if you could let us know.

Let me have a chat with avinash uncle , then i will fax you .........


but on serious note , stinger has been there for quite some time & its solid rocket motor is one of the best (what kind of seeker it uses is also to be seen)

RBS70 is not a MANPAD it is heavy & cannot be used in the heat of battle . Stinger on the other hand is a true MANPAD which could be carried by a single guy & threaten any helicopter or fixed wing aircraft.

Stinger weight 14.3 kg (32 lb)

RBS70 weight 87 kg (Stand + Sight + Missile)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBS_70

[Austin]

India-Israel joint venture to manufacture missiles fails to take off
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 749188.cms

The joint venture between India's Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Israeli Aerospace Industry to manufacture Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR SAM) and Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile (MR-SAM) has turned out to be a non-starter.

I hope thats not true , it will be a body blow to P-15A SAM and commissioning of the ship which is already delayed ......we may have to run for MBDA Aster system

[member_20453]

Nah, AEGIS is the best option other than LR-SAM. Wtih SM-3 or SM-2 we should have some serious long range Naval AD capabilities. Aster doesn't match neither.

[saumitra_j]

but on serious note , stinger has been there for quite some time & its solid rocket motor is one of the best (what kind of seeker it uses is also to be seen)

You still have not explained what exactly would India get as ToT. The material technology behind the rocket case??? The seeker technology?? The technology behind rocket propellants?? You seem to be so sure about it being a good deal, I am sure you know the details about it which you can share with us mere mortals who do not have any uncles or aunts at high places .....

[member_20453]

SM-3 is a truly long range AD system, I would love to see these acquired and locally manufactured under TOT, I know AEGIS was offered to us some time ago. SM-6 and SM-3 Block 1B + or eventually Block 2 could be the best we could get. They both offer long ranges and are tested more often than other naval defence systems.

As far as Stinger is concerned, we have little info on what is on offer, but the fact that they put the whole VSHORADS deal on hold to properly have a view on Stinger seems to suggest something tempting is on offer. Besides, they do say joint developement, perhaps it is an upgraded variant with new seekers and more composites etc. let's wait & see.

[Karan M]

but on serious note , stinger has been there for quite some time & its solid rocket motor is one of the best (what kind of seeker it uses is also to be seen)

You still have not explained what exactly would India get as ToT. The material technology behind the rocket case??? The seeker technology?? The technology behind rocket propellants?? You seem to be so sure about it being a good deal, I am sure you know the details about it which you can share with us mere mortals who do not have any uncles or aunts at high places .....

We will get nice made in India stickers printed with atya adhunik videshi tech which BDL can solemnly affix to the packaging.

[Karan M]

Again, its Avinash Chander who is saying that everything is fine . Hope it does not turn out like that IOC-2 in September assertion

Can he really say anything else? His challenge is to fix a program that was clearly driven by others and he will try to do his best.
The embedded quotes in the article, though say it all, about how we got gypped in the name of JV. And the man who led this great program and foisted it down the throat of DRDO is the same ex-CAS linked to both the WKK giri over Siachen, was the Rafael rep in India plus the one linked to the AW deal.
Israel took our money and spent it on ramping up their BMD programs.

[member_20453]

We will get nice made in India stickers printed with atya adhunik videshi tech which BDL can solemnly affix to the packaging.[/quote]

It'll be the same whether we by the RBS-70 or Mistral, so might as well for go the system that is truly man portable and perhaps cheaper

[Aditya_V]

How come Barak-8 is ready for Isareli warships but not for Indian warships after sinking USD 2.5 Billion.

[Karan M]

We will get nice made in India stickers printed with atya adhunik videshi tech which BDL can solemnly affix to the packaging.

It'll be the same whether we by the RBS-70 or Mistral, so might as well for go the system that is truly man portable and perhaps cheaper

[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. They are not affected as much by ITAR.

[Karan M]

How come Barak-8 is ready for Isareli warships but not for Indian warships after sinking USD 2.5 Billion.

Its not ready for them either.

[Victor]

So why didnt raytheon not respond to the competitive tender. Its a bad idea to go fms when options are available. This is not c17 or p8i case.

Maybe because of the terms of the tender. We seem to consider "ToT" to be literal spoon feeding where we don't need to do anything but purchase a foreign company's crown jewels. As the LR-SAM and MR-SAM case has clearly demonstrated, we are being extremely naive (and have been for decades). The Americans may not want to call us stupid by calling us stupid so they are offering the next best thing: joint development of a proven system. ie. take a weapon and make it better or develop it for our needs. This way, both sides get something of real value. This would be something like the Brahmos and Su-30MKI model. The smart thing to do is to plug into the most advanced and efficient MIC in the world.

IMO, unless we understand at a basic level that the DPSU is not the way to reach self-sufficiency, we will be stuck in a rut and forever be moaning, groaning and making excuses like DRDO. It is the definition of idiocy to keep doing what does not work, even if we don't consider that the DPSUs are a scam clothed in "national interest".

[Karan M]

The smart thing to do is to plug into the most advanced and efficient MIC in the world.

Yes, the same one which imposes sanctions at the drop of a hat, and constantly tells Indian bumpkins about how to deal with minor issues like terror etc.

IMO, unless we understand at a basic level that the DPSU is not the way to reach self-sufficiency, we will be stuck in a rut and forever be moaning, groaning and making excuses like DRDO. It is the definition of idiocy to keep doing what does not work, even if we don't consider that the DPSUs are a scam clothed in "national interest".

Ah, so while politically driven JVs are not delivering and are turning out to be scams, you want more politically driven scams to be foisted onto us merely because they are from America & obviously will work well. Funnily enough, the moaning, groaning DRDO seems to be making Akash, Agnis et al just fine, while the lord & master aka the Khan, whom you wish for India, is the one which put sanctions on India & is now putting a spanner in the works of working procurement systems, by offering FMS deals with dubious joint development claims - no clear definition of what is joint development and where.

[Singha]

I think they even rejected the idea of testing the Javelin in india. this for a $1 billion deal.
for them $1b is peanuts and they can afford to be arrogant on all fronts.

[Cosmo_R]

Re the ToI article on LRSAM etc. Here's the key takeaway:

"Expecting Israel to share its technology with India is unfair. But such things should have been clarified before the joint venture was entered into," said an official.

Nobody, not the Russians, French, Israelis or the US is going to share their knowledge base with any buyer.

If you want sophisticated stuff, you either make it yourself or buy it off the shelf from someone else. This obsession with "ToT" only adds to delays and costs in procurement.

That said, if you want to buy, FMS is the best route to go because you have transparent benchmarks for unit costs. For 3-5%, the DoD does all the negotiating and logistics for the buyer.

FMS is hated by foreign militaries and pols because there's no room for skimming. If France, Russia or Israel had similar programs it would put politicians out of business. However, unlike the US, they know that it also means less money if they are totally transparent. The US can afford to be transparent simply because foreign sales are a pittance compared to domestic purchases.

[Victor]

I think they even rejected the idea of testing the Javelin in india.

This was before Leon Panetta began to break down the bureaucratic walls last year. The Pentagon wasn't too warm to the idea and basically said "take it or leave it" after India requested it (US did not offer it). Panetta was given the mandate to bring about a change in the American attitude and to understand our needs better. He proposed co-manufacture of the Javelin and then after DRDO started making the usual whining sounds about ToT, he upgraded the deal to co-development. This is still not ToT in the sense that we (or actually DPSUs) understand it but it is still far better than outright purchase or even co-manufacture. We will be exposed to the innards of the tech but absorbing it and using it is entirely upto us. We (or actually DPSUs) have proved spectacularly inept in this regard so far.

[Victor]

If you want sophisticated stuff, you either make it yourself or buy it off the shelf from someone else. This obsession with "ToT" only adds to delays and costs in procurement.

Exactly. Where our people got the idea that we can simply buy critical tech is a mystery but they seem stuck on it like the backbenchers are stuck on leaked question papers. The point to ponder is, why are we dependent on "ToT" after over half a century of DRDO's existence for common, everyday weapons?

[NRao]

I think this whole tamasha and expectations of tot came from the mki project.

Time to reboot.

[ramana]

If you want sophisticated stuff, you either make it yourself or buy it off the shelf from someone else. This obsession with "ToT" only adds to delays and costs in procurement.

Exactly. Where our people got the idea that we can simply buy critical tech is a mystery but they seem stuck on it like the backbenchers are stuck on leaked question papers. The point to ponder is, why are we dependent on "ToT" after over half a century of DRDO's existence for common, everyday weapons?

For starters the funding for DRDO for everyday weapon is minscule to come up with world class imports

Secondly the forces seem to want videshi maal and hence the need to TOT to make it in India.


In a way of speaking DRDO is setup to appear to be serious about indegenization but in reality it gets very low funding and forces demand some thing out of its capability and turn around and import. In meantime the govt and its babus and supply chain honchos make money. And also get entertainment by berating the DRDO for not performing and how they are forced to go for imports.

[Victor]

It might help if we tasked DRDO to master basic weapons tech like guns, bombs and bullets which we are still struggling with and leave the more esoteric stuff like titanium casting and forging research to someone like Bharat Forge or L&T. They will be better equipped and more than happy to carry out this research if the funds support is funneled to them instead of DRDO. Similarly, while it is hard to ignore the truth in "army marches on its stomach", it might be more efficient to hive off stuff like high-altitude chapati and dal making technology to other specialized institutions (granted that this is a big success area). Having a single organization develop everything from warmer socks to lighter combat aircraft is indicative of our grand illusions and the neta-babu expertise in siphoning off taxpayer money.

[Indranil]

It might help if we tasked DRDO to master basic weapons tech like guns, bombs and bullets which we are still struggling with and leave the more esoteric stuff like titanium casting and forging research to someone like Bharat Forge or L&T. They will be better equipped and more than happy to carry out this research if the funds support is funneled to them instead of DRDO. Similarly, while it is hard to ignore the truth in "army marches on its stomach", it might be more efficient to hive off stuff like high-altitude chapati and dal making technology to other specialized institutions (granted that this is a big success area). Having a single organization develop everything from warmer socks to lighter combat aircraft is indicative of our grand illusions and the neta-babu expertise in siphoning off taxpayer money.

The disdain with which you look down upon DRDO scientists is regrettable (put mildly). And how churlish are we armchair generals who keep crying about taxpayers money. Everybody in DRDO/DPSUs pay tax. And they work towards national security, unlike most of those who keep crying all the time.

Sorry, couldn't hold it back.

[ramana]

Err, I bet even those two won't master Ti alloy castings. BF might be able to master Ti forgings from ingots developed by DRDO. Anyway what is the biggest tonnage press with BF?

[Victor]

The disdain with which you look down upon DRDO scientists is regrettable (put mildly). And how churlish are we armchair generals who keep crying about taxpayers money.

Indranil, I think you are reading past me. I hold the institution called DRDO, its backers and its track record over half a century in disdain, not the people who work there and I have said so repeatedly. I'm sorry you consider it "churlish" to complain about wasting Indian taxpayers' money, no matter who pays it. I don't agree and I not only disdain it, I am furious in case that wasn't apparent.

And they work towards national security, unlike most of those who keep crying all the time.

See that's the problem. They are not helping national security unless I'm missing something. We still need to import infantry rifles and bullets, not to mention tanks and fighter jets. Yes, yes, I know---it is the damned army and air force that are to blame because they are corrupt and want only firangi maal. They should make do with whatever the likes of DRDO/HAL dishes out.

[Victor]

Ramana, I believe BF has titanium Ti6Al4V as one of their products, the same alloy used in M777 howitzer AFAIk. They have plants worldwide including Germany, US and China so I feel such an Indian company is in far better position to develop leading edge metal technologies than DRDO. Don't know about casting though Kalyani Group also does casting.

Biggest tonnage press I can see here is 12,000T open die press that can handle 250MT ingots but that is old data.

The point is, if we want advanced technologies, we should go to the most suitable Indian organizations whether private or public that are likely to provide it, not an ill-equipped, underfunded outfit that is not answerable to anybody.

Anyways, apologies for taking this thread OT.

[Indranil]

Victor sahab,

I sincerely apologize. I shouldn't have flown off the handle like that, no matter what your thoughts and feelings are.