INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

[Lalmohan]

i know, and quite a few weere converted cargo ships with flat tops
the big boys were few in number

[member_20067]

Can we also track Carriers--- with wake pattern -- subsequent detection by Sea-Bouy -- Like Tsunami detection---

Using dispensable drone -- launched from safe distance --

Using dispensable remote naval craft--

Smoke and oil trails...

[member_23455]

Read on from page 39 how the US CBGs used to play hide and seek with the Soviets

Link

[SaiK]

instead of spending time and energy on wake pattern corrections (if not expensive affair), i would think we focus on perimeter defence systems, SAMs, and most importantly the naval packs - harriers, n-lca and the mig29k.. the faster we get the astra, the better would be for us against aerial attack.

[chackojoseph]

Can we also track Carriers--- with wake pattern -- subsequent detection by Sea-Bouy -- Like Tsunami detection---

watch Battleship (2012)

[Pratyush]

^^^

It wont work as we will not know the nature of the ship. The only fool proof, passive way to identify a particular ship is to listen to her and identify her machinery noises. Then track those noises through your Sonar array or Sonar Ships.

Which is why NATO aircraft was snooping around the Vik.

[Nikhil T]

Why have no Indian Navy pilots landed on the Vik yet? We definitely have MiG 29k pilots, some of which have trained with USN aircraft carriers. Have they not been trained by Russian Navy pilots?

[krishnan]

Can we also track Carriers--- with wake pattern -- subsequent detection by Sea-Bouy -- Like Tsunami detection---

watch Battleship (2012)

NOAA

[ArmenT]

^^^

It wont work as we will not know the nature of the ship. The only fool proof, passive way to identify a particular ship is to listen to her and identify her machinery noises. Then track those noises through your Sonar array or Sonar Ships.

Which is why NATO aircraft was snooping around the Vik.

Was wondering if this could be countered by mounting speakers close to the props and playing a soundtrack to add extra sounds and distort the original sound signature? The speakers could be mounted to face the hull of the ship and the compartments they are in could be sound-proofed on all sides, except the hull wall. Then, all they have to do is play a long set of soundtracks, could be anything -- sounds of another ship, heavy metal albums, bhajans etc. The soundtrack would interfere with the machinery noises and produce a different signature and since the soundtrack does not repeat itself for several hours/days, the overall sound signature will not stay constant enough to identify any particular ship. I wonder if this is actually feasible and if any Navy does this?

[Pratyush]

^^^

It may be countered, but as long as you have man made noises and they are different from surrounding environment. Attention will be drawn.

An AC will have a very unique acoustic signature, whats with all the jets landing and taking off. The sound of the arrestor gear, the sound of the Jet engine on deck. You may try to cover it up through music, but you are still making a noise. That is man made. The energy required to make this noise, the unique sound of the propeller blades moving at a specific rotation.

These are man made sounds and are different from the rest of the ocean sound, you can be isolated on the basis of these sounds.

In an area with sonar array the type of ship may be unknown with no aviation activity, but the moment you start the first jet engine the game's up.

[Lalmohan]

noise cancellation should work in theory, but in practice the energy requirements may be prohibitive

[Brando]

Was wondering if this could be countered by mounting speakers close to the props and playing a soundtrack to add extra sounds and distort the original sound signature?

This would only "increase" the total acoustic signature of the vessel. There are methods in which the existing signature is damped by using a phase modulated signal that is inverse (180 deg) of the one being generated to cancel out the original acoustic signature, just like a noise cancelling headphone. Additionally, active vibration control is another method that aims to control the problem at the source. Both are extremely complex to employ with absolute success.

[ArmenT]

Oh, I wasn't talking about cancelling the sound signature, but augmenting it, the idea being (in theory, at least) that people listening can't tell if it is the USS Ronald Reagan or the tug boat SS Podunk going by. Spread the noise sources among enough vessels and you can cause the enemy to spread out their resources trying to chase non-existent carriers. Is this idea still feasible then?

[Lalmohan]

it should be, but you'll give the whales and dolphins a horrible headache!

[Austin]

Mig-29K Back on Deck , Report from INS Vikramaditya ( pg 38 )

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to28.pdf

[Rahul M]

Oh, I wasn't talking about cancelling the sound signature, but augmenting it, the idea being (in theory, at least) that people listening can't tell if it is the USS Ronald Reagan or the tug boat SS Podunk going by. Spread the noise sources among enough vessels and you can cause the enemy to spread out their resources trying to chase non-existent carriers. Is this idea still feasible then?

most systems have a fundamental freqn band and if the masking noise tries a different band (it has to, if it is to mimic another boat) modern sensors would be able to resolve the two. so, you would end up increasing your noise signature without gaining anything.
now, if you can reduce your actual signature enough to make it small compared to the masking noise -- that would be something.

something like this is what the counter torpedo decoys use, mimic the prop rotations of parent vessel to fool torpedo seekers.

[member_23455]

This would only "increase" the total acoustic signature of the vessel. There are methods in which the existing signature is damped by using a phase modulated signal that is inverse (180 deg) of the one being generated to cancel out the original acoustic signature, just like a noise cancelling headphone. Additionally, active vibration control is another method that aims to control the problem at the source. Both are extremely complex to employ with absolute success.

There are other tried and tested ways to dampen acoustic signatures, like Prairie-Masker

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... rairie.htm

Why have no Indian Navy pilots landed on the Vik yet? We definitely have MiG 29k pilots, some of which have trained with USN aircraft carriers. Have they not been trained by Russian Navy pilots?

Especially after the extended sea trials, it's better to have the carrier in home waters for the work-up to begin. Spare a thought for the morale and also the costs of having sailors deployed through another long cold winter. After the billions they have bilked from us that 180 person warranty-team sent for after-sales support should be put to good use.

[Philip]

del.

[pragnya]

Why have no Indian Navy pilots landed on the Vik yet? We definitely have MiG 29k pilots, some of which have trained with USN aircraft carriers. Have they not been trained by Russian Navy pilots?

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/11/ ... ya_19.html

[MN Kumar]

Why have no Indian Navy pilots landed on the Vik yet? We definitely have MiG 29k pilots, some of which have trained with USN aircraft carriers. Have they not been trained by Russian Navy pilots?

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/11/ ... ya_19.html

He was flying backseat and it was not a solo landing.

[pragnya]

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/11/ ... ya_19.html

He was flying backseat and it was not a solo landing.

indeed but it is still landing all the same!! the question by Nikhil was also not about 'solo' landing.

[JTull]

The pilot who has the "con" will get the credit for the trap. Otherwise, imagine who gets the credit when a E-3C lands on a USN carrier? It has 4 flight crew and more than a dozen mission crew. No pilot is ever likely to fly it solo.

[Leo.Davidson]

I think the question is how many Indian pilots have been practicing landing on the carrier. This report states that the Indian pilot was piggy backing and did not state that he was the one who landed the plane. Indian pilots may have practiced on US carriers, but how many have transitioned to Vikramaditya. Also practicing on a man made structure in Goa is no where scary to the featureless surrounding water, turbulent cross winds and bullseye like landing strip on a carrier.

[Nikhil T]

I think the question is how many Indian pilots have been practicing landing on the carrier. This report states that the Indian pilot was piggy backing and did not state that he was the one who landed the plane. Indian pilots may have practiced on US carriers, but how many have transitioned to Vikramaditya. Also practicing on a man made structure in Goa is no where scary to the featureless surrounding water, turbulent cross winds and bullseye like landing strip on a carrier.

Exactly my question. It seems like a detail too important to be missed out. If during the sea trials, Captain Berry could command the ship for 1700 miles (out of total 16k miles), IN could've also performed some landings!

I remember thinking a few days back that the month long journey from Russia to Karwar would be a golden opportunity for IN pilots to do CAP, surveillance and night landings in waters far away from the mainland. After all, we've had the MiG-29k for over 3.5 years now. Only after Livefist published that report of Capt Ahuja being the first IN pilot to 'land' on Vik did the reality dawn on me. The wait is not over yet. Sigh..

[Nikhil T]

INS Vikramaditya joins Indian Navy: Shiv Aroor on why India is relieved that the battleship is finally here

Quoting:

"Bahut pareshan kiya," fumes a sailor on the crew of INS Vikramaditya, the massive new addition to the Indian Navy's fleet. The Russians troubled us a lot, he says, succinctly describing the Indian Navy's experience over the last 10 years in this freezing town on the White Sea coast. The 45,000 ton aircraft carrier was ceremonially transferred to the Indian Navy on November 16, nearly five years later than promised and over $1.5 billion over contracted cost. While November 16 marks an undoubtedly important day for Indo-Russian relations, the over 1,600 Indians officers and sailors departing these shores later this month won't be sorry to do so. At every level, big and small, from the level of the entire navy, down to the youngest sailor, there's relief that it's finally over.

"Eta secret". Russian for "Sorry, that's secret". That, according to Indian personnel who've spent years in Severodvinsk learning how to sail their enormous new ship, has been the most common response from Russian personnel to any query or request for help. Over 188 days, during two rounds of sea trials between 2012 and 2013, Indian personnel are said to have been deeply irritated with the manner in which the Russian trial team on board ran the show, speaking largely in their own language, and ticking off mandatory test points on the ship, while bewildered Indian Navy personnel repeatedly requested them to slow down and take everyone on board, so to speak. The Indian side has had far less experience on the ship than it would have liked: of the 19,500 miles covered by the ship during trials, barely 1,700 miles were under the command of Commodore Suraj Berry, who is now officially commanding officer of the vessel.

[member_23455]

The pilot who has the "con" will get the credit for the trap. Otherwise, imagine who gets the credit when a E-3C lands on a USN carrier? It has 4 flight crew and more than a dozen mission crew. No pilot is ever likely to fly it solo.

E2C not E3C, and it carries a crew of 5 typically in all. 2 Pilots and 3 Mission Crew.

I think the question is how many Indian pilots have been practicing landing on the carrier. This report states that the Indian pilot was piggy backing and did not state that he was the one who landed the plane. Indian pilots may have practiced on US carriers, but how many have transitioned to Vikramaditya. Also practicing on a man made structure in Goa is no where scary to the featureless surrounding water, turbulent cross winds and bullseye like landing strip on a carrier.

None have CQ-ed on the Vikramaditya but no biggie.While landing on a carrier, especially at night is no child's play, in both training and work-up you first train on the field - what the Yanks call FCLP, then "go the boat", and first CQ-day and then CQ-night, and the latter is done for all pilots in a squadron only by the USN.

So if the Mig29K chaps are maintaining their currency at Dabolim that's good enough for now. Especially with a new ship, to be based at a new location, there are already lot of balls having to be juggled in the air.

[member_23455]

I think the question is how many Indian pilots have been practicing landing on the carrier. This report states that the Indian pilot was piggy backing and did not state that he was the one who landed the plane. Indian pilots may have practiced on US carriers, but how many have transitioned to Vikramaditya. Also practicing on a man made structure in Goa is no where scary to the featureless surrounding water, turbulent cross winds and bullseye like landing strip on a carrier.

Exactly my question. It seems like a detail too important to be missed out. If during the sea trials, Captain Berry could command the ship for 1700 miles (out of total 16k miles), IN could've also performed some landings!

I remember thinking a few days back that the month long journey from Russia to Karwar would be a golden opportunity for IN pilots to do CAP, surveillance and night landings in waters far away from the mainland. After all, we've had the MiG-29k for over 3.5 years now. Only after Livefist published that report of Capt Ahuja being the first IN pilot to 'land' on Vik did the reality dawn on me. The wait is not over yet. Sigh..

Sorry but with all due respect have you any idea of the immense logistics it takes to set up a CQ regime? Divert airfields (which in your wishlist would require us to negotiate with foreign countries - the USN we are not), and the fact that this is a new ship with countless little loose ends that Captain Berry will be tying up over the voyage.

The British did an emergency work-up on their way to the Falkands, lost some folks too - that was war. Apart from armchair warriors wanting some gratification, why should the IN make life difficult for itself?

[Singha]

>> and the latter is done for all pilots in a squadron only by the USN.

do you mean not all pilots in other carrier navies are night qualified?

[member_23455]

>> and the latter is done for all pilots in a squadron only by the USN.

do you mean not all pilots in other carrier navies are night qualified?

Absolutely, not even the French and British.

Have pointed to this earlier as well that in the justified awe that we have for those Nimitz-class behemoths, we forget that at a squadron-level the combat power that a USN squadron can generate is many X times of others as even the rookie (nugget= USN) pilots have to get night qualified.

It does require lots more $$$ to be spent but it is necesary for the high-tempo operations philosophy that the USN has embraced in carrier warfare. I hope we emulate that, not just the shiny new platforms, which are good too.

[Pratyush]

do you mean not all pilots in other carrier navies are night qualified?

I find it difficult to believe that a navy will send a ship of war on deployment and not have all of its equipment and men ready for any eventuality. That includes night ops for the Aircrew.

Especially in the modern context, where the western way of war to try and fight as much during the night as is possible.

[member_23455]

Good old forum. Beliefs and Opinion above all.

http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2012/01/v ... nding.html

[Pratyush]

Sure man, you know better then the rest, but I get this result.

Carrier Qualifications deployment

The aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (CVN R91) left Toulon naval base on October 16 with its full crew and airwing onboard (Rafale, Super-Etendard Modernisé, Hawkeye, Dauphin helicopter). The training will focus mainly on the validation of pilot skills in two consecutive phases.

The first phase, commonly called "École de l’Aviation Embarquée" (Carrier-borne Aviation School), will qualify rookie French naval aviation pilots for day and night carrier operations. No mention of day / night qualification segregation, For some of those young pilots this will be their first landing on the deck of Charles de Gaulle CVN.

The second phase will consist in training newly qualified pilots as well as veteran pilots in the conduct of operational missions from the aircraft carrier. Evidently the french don't believe in skill segregation, where some get tasked more heavily as opposed some who are only limited to day ops

Night flying is an integral part of carrier operation and any carrier whose air wing / squadron that has pilots that are not qualified for night ops is not fit for combat operations.

Now, it is generally recognized, that for carrier operations you have to re-qualify every few months or so. When not on deployment. But during deployment it self, by the time the sip reaches its assigned area of operations every one of the pilots must be fully qualified. That includes for night flying. Else, you are looking at an over worked crew whose fighting potential will be diminished so quickly that, the ship will have to retire from combat operations, for RR, and re-qualification.

Thereby defeating the purpose of having the carrier.

The Indian Navy, will also need to follow a uniform training standard for all of its Mig 29 pilots.

[Philip]

For info I suggest members read how the Vikrant was first inducted and how the voyage to India was effectively used for work up purposes.It will be a great experience for the carrier transiting through the Barents Sea,North Sea,Atlantic,Meditt and then into the Arabian Sea and IOR,from artic to tropical waters.It will be a great opportunity for the carrier to be put through its paces.Once it arrives in Karwar,on is sure that the MIG-29Ks will be inducted aboard the carrier .The MIGs are currently serving on board both seaboards,eastern and western at Vizag and Goa.

If the carrier does transit through the Suez canal,exceptional care must be exercised as Al Q and their ungodly Paki compatriots are quite capable of suicide attacks as we saw with the case of the USS Cole which was almost lost.We've been given no news about its helo component which may already be aboard,AEW KA-31s and ASW Kamovs,apart from escort helo assets.

[member_23455]

The report is wrong, DDM exists everywhere. Many conclusions drawn on the basis also are similarly erroneous.
But, Free World and all that...

Moving on, some trivia that might be of interest, from Adm. Sandy Woodward's book - One Hundred Days:

1. When the Falkands War broke out, 801, the (in) famous Sharkey Ward commanded-squadron on the Invincible had 50% night-CQ

2. The 800 Sqn. on Hermes (now Viraat) had just the CO night-CQ-ed.

[chackojoseph]

Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya loads supplies for passage to India


It appears, 5 ships sent for escorting Vik will join them at different ports. A tanker and a frigate will be along with it from Russia.

[Peregrine]

Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya loads supplies for passage to India


It appears, 5 ships sent for escorting Vik will join them at different ports. A tanker and a frigate will be along with it from Russia.

chackojoseph Ji

From the above Article :

Vikramaditya departure is scheduled for late November but the exact date depends on weather conditions, as the transition through the channel for such a large ship is rather complicated task.

Rather ominous!

Cheers

[Singha]

the entry from sverodbinsk into the white sea seems like 50km wide! but ice must be heavy this time...icebreakers might clear the way.

btw I found a couple of pix of SLCM launches from a surfaced yasen class sub. it has multi purpose virginia type cells aft of the sail..a lot of them.
http://s006.radikal.ru/i215/1306/aa/729c333d1920.jpg
http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/atta ... &type=.jpg
http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php ... &type=.jpg
pic of the sub caliber tube system - arihant has something similar http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php ... &type=.jpg

[NRao]

but ice must be heavy this time...icebreakers might clear the way.

Too early in the season for that concern. Just checked google maps - the coast is right around freezing temps.

I think the challenge is about "channel" - ships without proper guidance will get stuck somewhere.

Do not know, but I get the feeling that the Russians are not in any hurry to provide help.

[Singha]

^ will likely demand 300% of regular tugboat and pilot fees citing the tough circumstances. one last ripoff opportunity

[SaiK]

After the snooping incident (not a pessimistic view, but going by how DDM and media authorities are handling this), the last thing we want to hear like Vikramaditya interdicted, pirates, dubai ports freezes supplies, etc. stupidity.

How about keeping out Sukhoi squadron with P8I, and a refueller ready for any emergencies? I am not arm chairing.. but being cautious. Just for that bit of information is always hidden from DDM.