Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2013 16:39

Harbans Ji,

Your point about the legality of the order or the lack thereoff, is taken in its entirety and without qualification. However, my point is.

1) That such an order was given.
2) It was obeyed.
3) The results were shared with the "Saheb".

What did "saheb", do?

Now suppose, that the snooping was done to protect the girl, from the unwarranted attention of a babu. Would giving a written order for snooping not alert the Babu.

Or would it have been prudent to do what AS did. Collect evidence and quietly confront the Babu, about it. Without making a hue and cry about it.

To me this is a case with 2 separate sets of illegalities. One from the regime and the other from the man who tapped the order. If the man who gave the order has to suffer. Then the man who obeyed the order also must suffer, as it was an illegal order.

But in all this, it is important politically to exonerate Modi. Cause every thing is politics. I have no reason to believe that Modi acted on his own, with prurient intentions against the lady concerned.

So the NCW, once finds the order was given in order to ascertain that the lady was being stalked by the Babu in question. The snoop gate will go away. Then the full measure of Justice must reach the men behind the snoop gate.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Nov 2013 17:15

Pratyush Ji, i agree with the flow of things you have noted in your post above. Yet at point 2:

2) It was obeyed.

Now NM's opponents are on saying if the govt was protecting the girl, why can't they come out in the open. Instead the logical question should be why 2?

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 22 Nov 2013 17:53

kapilrdave wrote:
Santosh wrote:Twitter is overflowing with negative reactions on #AAP. Not one positive tweet on entire page. If twitter is any indication AAP is toast. I hope Kejriwal gets thrown in jail for all the fraud being committed by AAP.
SM is a funny place. You never know who is who and who is 'how may'. One man can be multiple poster also.

During last two assembly elections in UP, I used to think that bjp had good chance. Why? Because no matter which news site I surfed, the comments section was full of anti sp, bsp, cong. Almost everyone wanted bjp! But we know the result. Most likely those posters didn't even belong to UP. Or they didn't vote. The situation on the ground - such as how many people can he gather - would give more clearer indication. The fact that farji has not even attempted to do a huge rally in dilli, especially in this season of mega rallies, speaks volumes about his confidence. Same way, disinterest of delhites in pappu's speeches shows that there is anti cong wave.

Namo didn't campaign in UP and Rahul didn't declare himself as CM candidate. So most of the core vote got distributed and it ended up as polorized election.

But I agree with SM is not barometer.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Nov 2013 17:55

Is Narendra Modi's speech in Indore right now being streamed live anywhere. I don't get the stream from narendramodi.in or yuvatv!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2013 18:18

harbans wrote:Pratyush Ji, i agree with the flow of things you have noted in your post above. Yet at point 2:

2) It was obeyed.
Now NM's opponents are on saying if the govt was protecting the girl, why can't they come out in the open. Instead the logical question should be why 2?

Which is why I say that the full weight of the law must be felt by those who tapped the conversion, without giving a contrary opinion. If AS was wrong to ask for it, the establishment was wrong to obey it.

Thta is why I say post the conclusion of NCW, inquest, the official concerned must face full weight of law.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Nov 2013 18:21

Rajesh ji, getting it here:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/MLdt2ZYqmx ... r_embedded

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Nov 2013 18:32

harbans ji,

thanks!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Nov 2013 20:20

Madhya Pradesh Rally: Rahul Gandhi vows to fulfill all promises

What is the need to vow when the vow of fulfillment is integral to any promise!

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 22 Nov 2013 20:51

@WorldJat has a bunch of uncomfortable tweets about UP BJP and its inability to harness Jat vote.
https://twitter.com/WorldJat

Atish · Post by **Atish** » 22 Nov 2013 21:09

Principles of Indian Criminal Jurisprudence:
1. Everybody is Presumed Innocent unless Proven Guilty with the exception of Narendra Modi and individuals close to him, who are Assumed Guilty until Proven Innocent Beyond all Unreasonable Doubt.
2. People who are opposed to Narendra Modi are Presumed Innocent even After Being Proven Guilty.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 22 Nov 2013 21:31

VikramS wrote:@WorldJat has a bunch of uncomfortable tweets about UP BJP and its inability to harness Jat vote.
https://twitter.com/WorldJat

The guy seems to be hyper casteist, calling everyone outside his community ugly names. Is this what the Jats think about other communities? Also, he is rooting for a BJP-Ajit Singh alliance. I am not sure that is such a great idea.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2013 21:32

So who is the bureaucrat and his IPS brother who are being shielded while the girl and Modi who was taking steps to protect her is being vilified?

Also is there a pattern: Jha, Dixit, Pandey (Dilli gang rape) going on in Delhi?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 22 Nov 2013 21:44

about the snooping issue-
from kamen tsection from mediacrooks site

No MistNovember 22, 2013 10:29 AM

Somethings about the 'snoopgate' (which doesnt look like snoop at all)

These conversations date to 2009. The recorded conversations are of Amit Shah. Since those who tapped the phones didnt know what conversation is going to take place, they must have a lot more recorded conversation in possession and must have analyzed all that for innumerable times to find something incriminating. Tapping phones of a home minister cannot be done by state police ... at least not without solid support from central agencies. It follows that central agencies were tapping phones of Shah, Modi and most of BJP leaders since Congress came to power ie 2004. The tapes were leaked in 2013. So in all of 9 years of recorded conversation of almost every BJP leader they could find this 'snoopgate' as the most damaging piece. LOL ... I cannot stop laughing.

Think about it ... those who tapped the phones must be hoping that these BJP leaders would say something sinister about Muslims ... or at the very least something even mildly abusive .... 9 years of tapping ... 4-5 leaders in every state totaling more than 100 BJP leaders ... thousands of hours of conversation ... multitude of 'caged parrots' (CBI/etc) poring over it all for years and years ....

and NOT EVEN ONE sentence against muslims by even one of the leaders accused of being anti-muslim. ..... NOT EVEN ONE minute of abuse

That actually speaks very highly of BJP. Someone from BJP should point out this fact to the electorate. If this doesn't prove pure secularism of BJP, I dont know what does.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 22 Nov 2013 21:46

another kament

RamanNovember 22, 2013 11:04 AM

I believe that no one should be free from factual criticism in a democracy. Modi himself mentioned several times in his speeches that he welcomes criticism based on facts, but not biased & baseless allegations. I did criticize his remarks on using GM seeds for improving cotton productivity in Gujarat. He responded to my criticism & Off late Modi started talking about Organic Farming.

Unfortunately, CONgress has created mountains of issues in the country, which are seriously threatening the foundations of India and its ethos. Do we cry over Toilets/prioritizing SRF/etc. when our very existence is under grave threat? Indians had made a blunder of dethroning NDA in 2004 by picking tiny holes in NDA. Let us not digress from the goal of "CONgress Mukth Bharat"

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 22 Nov 2013 23:35

Rajiv Malhotra's Google Hangout for a Better India.

Please watch the whole thing before you tell me it's OT for this thread.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 23 Nov 2013 00:41

http://newsanalysisindia.com/post/Was-t ... helka.aspx

As per IB alert there is threat on the life of BJP PM Candidate Gujarat CM Modi. Dawood has taken supari for this from ISI. Dawood want to attack Modi with the help of other terrorist organizations IM, SIMI, LeT, JeM, HUJI and terror out fit active in Saudi Arabia. Qestion arises: Was there any conspiracy against Modi at Goa in THiNK of Tejpal Tehelka?

Why was Taliban co-founder and political adviser of Pakistan PM Nawaz Sharif Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef invited in THiNK organized by Tejpal of Tehelka?

Is Mullah Zaeef advisor of Pak PM or Cong Govt? Congress fighting Election 2014 with Taliban: Taliban co-founder Nawaz Sharif's political adviser is in India with Minister Chidambaram and and another minister in Pakistan to shake hand with Nawaz Sharif! Indian Mujahedeen (IM) is the child of Taliban as CBI (caged parrot) is the child of Congress. It seems that CONGRESS party want to gain strength from the enemies of India such as Taliban and Hafiz Saeed.

Why had Goa Governor’s bungalow been used for THiNK function?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Nov 2013 00:47

nageshks wrote:
VikramS wrote:@WorldJat has a bunch of uncomfortable tweets about UP BJP and its inability to harness Jat vote.
https://twitter.com/WorldJat
The guy seems to be hyper casteist, calling everyone outside his community ugly names. Is this what the Jats think about other communities? Also, he is rooting for a BJP-Ajit Singh alliance. I am not sure that is such a great idea.

I follow him. Yes for him it is indeed Jat above everything, and all Jats whether Hindu, Sikh or Muslim are for him Jats and their interests come before Hindutva/Bharatiyata.

Of course, he is also an ardent fan of NaMo, but he is too intertwined with UP politics and hate the guts of Rajnath Singh, and others. He is also very much against Ajit Singh who he thinks has sold Jat interests to the Congress. And he is anti-Congress.

His peeve against BJP is because he think the Jat interests are not given due recognition within the BJP. He has been talking about sugar cane prices. He is also angry that in the Agra rally of Modi, no recognition was given to local Jat leaders and they were ignored.

And since for him, it is Jat above all else, he is willing to avenge this slight and make BJP pay!

But he cannot change the fact that Jats have nowhere else to go now, not after Muzaffarnagar!

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 23 Nov 2013 01:12

Regarding the WorldJat guy. While it may hurt our sensibilities, the fact that caste identities are very strong, and Jats have never been a BJP constituency, suggests that at least he knows something about his community.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 23 Nov 2013 02:00

EC in a bind after Cong complains Sholay spoof targets Rahul

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 23 Nov 2013 02:08

RajeshA wrote: I follow him. Yes for him it is indeed Jat above everything, and all Jats whether Hindu, Sikh or Muslim are for him Jats and their interests come before Hindutva/Bharatiyata.

Of course, he is also an ardent fan of NaMo, but he is too intertwined with UP politics and hate the guts of Rajnath Singh, and others. He is also very much against Ajit Singh who he thinks has sold Jat interests to the Congress. And he is anti-Congress.

His peeve against BJP is because he think the Jat interests are not given due recognition within the BJP. He has been talking about sugar cane prices. He is also angry that in the Agra rally of Modi, no recognition was given to local Jat leaders and they were ignored.

And since for him, it is Jat above all else, he is willing to avenge this slight and make BJP pay!

But he cannot change the fact that Jats have nowhere else to go now, not after Muzaffarnagar!

Interesting, RajeshA-ji. Thanks for the clarifications. Two questions, though.

Who are the local leaders who should have been given prominence? Off the top of my head, there are no high level Jat leaders in UP BJP. The closest they have to one (if he has actually joined the BJP) is Sompal Shastri.

What are the Jat interests he wants the BJP to champion? Sugarcane price is one thing I can see (but that is actually a caste neutral interest - not all sugarcane farmers of western UP, or even most, are Jat). So what are the other Jat interests?

disha · Post by **disha** » 23 Nov 2013 02:18

On the Snoop gate:

Bureaucrat in the snoop gate: Ex-IAS officer (Suspended) Pradeep Sharma. He has been suspended. He is contesting it in SC and presented taped conversations between Amit Shah and another IPS officer GPL Singhal as "evidence of harassment" against him.

AAP's Prashant Bhushan is representing him in SC.

Suspended IAS officer Pradeep Sharma's elder brother is Kuldeep Sharma - and (former) IPS officer in Gujarat.

Now Kuldeep Sharma is advisor to Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) - New Delhi.

Ms. Soni (yes, the media wallahs shred her privacy., and hounded her and her family out already - it is all over there in TOILet/uNDTV/...) was connected to Pradeep Sharma.

-------------

Assuming this is not a sexual harassment case and only pure snooping by Gujarat govrnment:

GoG perspective

1. Ms. Soni is connected to Pradeep Sharma.
2. Ms. Soni is snooped on to further snoop on Pradeep Sharma
3. It is evident that Pradeep Sharma is snooping on Gov. of Guj. - he has almost 5 years of recorded conversation of all top BJP functionaries (incl. Amit Shah - his home minister and also Narendra Modi - his CM) and their officers (that is if AS is talking to IPS Offc. Singhal - it is recorded)

So what Guj. Gov. is doing is counter-surveillance on Pradeep Sharma via Ms. Soni who is doing a surveillance on the Gov. of Guj. Is Ms. Soni a spy (intended/unintended?)

----------------

Prashant Bhushan/Pradeep Sharma's perspective

Ms. Soni is romantically linked with 'Sahebji' and hence the Home Minister ordered a surveillance on Ms. Soni. Guj. State machinery was used to "illegally" snoop on Ms. Soni - impacting her privacy {A WTFrock moment here - Given the blow to Modi campaigns, IJ chota-mota blasts., anybody who is in contact with NaMo has to be under surveillance and that is the job of Guj. Home Minister - whether he has tacit understanding with his CM or not is their problem}

---------------------

Perspective of Mr. Soni (father of the woman) (based on letter written and news analysis/blogs)

Pradeep Sharma appears to be a powerful lout and is eyeing my daughter and my daughter has expressed feelings of discomfort in his presence. I am worried about her safety., let us put up a request to CM to check this out.

------------

Questions for BRF unthinker-tankerless bandhus:

1. Pradeep Sharma monitored the entire Gov. of Guj. for few years and across the leadership spectrum including the most villified and communal CM and his sidekick on earth Amit Shah and all they could find - and all they could find was the unauthorized snooping on a single person? Is that it? No communal statement against minorities? None? Aren't they communal?

2. This is the first skeleton. As things go, more deeper skeletons will emerge. Wait - if there is a darker and a bigger skeleton, why not bring it out and convict the CM/HM right away? Isn't that the goal of CongIs? LaWh0reViaKuwait - ergo there is no evidence which is can be used for convicting them - the only value of the surveillance is to find out pin pricks and use them in Election campaign - that is use the information for dirty swift boating.

3. And the largest question - Isn't surveillance of a Govt - in this case Government of Guj. itself illegal and a crime? On whose orders Pradeep Sharma was doing the surveillance? Implications of this surveillance falling in the hands of US of A or UK or Bakis? If Central MHA was doing this - isnt' the GOI itself is in docket for illegal snooping on a democratically elected Government of Guj.? No questions for MHA? Isn't Shivraj Patil and Shinde liable? At this stage my mind blows up into a bunch of four letter words @#$#%^$DF ...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Nov 2013 02:28

nageshks ji,

I don't have further insight into the issue and local Jat politics! Sorry! May be someone else here can give us gyaan!

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 23 Nov 2013 03:15

disha ji,
Why don't you put it in a blog and give us link? We will tweet it for better visibility.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 23 Nov 2013 03:19

^^ thanks for sharing RM hangout Rudradev. This are exactly my thoughts. Wonderful esp. The ideas about power economic, intellectual and military.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 23 Nov 2013 03:30

Boss no need to give credibility to snoop gate.
It's simple: Alarms rang when Sharma called private #.
Leak traced to Soni. Full watch ordered to see if she is being coerced, blackmailed or a spy.

Father informed and he approved.

Only issue is there were no written orders.

But most IB work done without such.

It's the cleanest saffron syndrome.

disha · Post by **disha** » 23 Nov 2013 04:05

Vamsee'ji thanks for the support. At least I have settled down on the name -> #mediapimps

disha · Post by **disha** » 23 Nov 2013 04:10

VikramS wrote:Boss no need to give credibility to snoop gate.
It's simple: Alarms rang when Sharma called private #.
Leak traced to Soni. Full watch ordered to see if she is being coerced, blackmailed or a spy.

Father informed and he approved.

Only issue is there were no written orders.

But most IB work done without such.

It's the cleanest saffron syndrome.

Beyond that, there is another murky world of CongI dirty tricks and #mediapimps in action at play. Who ordered surveillance on Guj. Home Minister AS and his police officers? IB? MHA?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 23 Nov 2013 04:15

RajeshA wrote:
harbans wrote:So in Snoopgate, it is not about womens rights, or Shah doing something illegal. It's about the basic breakdown, why an important bureaucratic organ like the Police chose not to point out the extra legality of snoop and advise accordingly. By not doing so and going around doing something xtralegal and taping it..that was the BIG error and failure of the democratic process. The bottom line here to be investigated is the bureaucracies utter failure in cooperating with Amit Shah and giving them proper advise on the request.

From my knowledge i don't remember any bureaucrat in Gujarat being transferred and harassed as is happening to Khemka for instance. I would like to see the notes of dissent that Singhal sent to Shah of the xtra legal order he was showing if at all one exists. Or proof that he threatened him to carry out the xtra legal operation despite his protests. That would be cause for concern on part of the politician (in this case Shah). But in this particular case the real cause of concern for Democratic norms is the bureaucratic response. Surprising none in the media and political experts that right reams and come in droves on Channels all the time looked into this aspect.
I don't see anything wrong with a state government putting some citizen under surveillance. Surveillance can be useful for finding out anti-national activities, for terrorist activities, for criminal activities, or for a plethora of other reasons doing with abuse of power. Surveillance is something all sorts of intelligence agencies are doing all the time, and yes on citizens.

The only requirement is that surveillance should have some justification. Here there is sufficient justification. Preventing a crime of molesting, sexual harassment, blackmail is more than good justification.

In a democratic country, perhaps one can say, such surveillance needs to be authorized by some court or some law. But we all know that Gujarati courts are full of Congress-sponsored judges. And everything is politics in India.

In the final analysis the only thing that mattered is whether Narendra Modi ordered surveillance as a political measure or as an administrative measure, and everything points out to the latter.

RajeshA garu, I believe that unlike say USA, someone like a home minister in India has a lot of power to order surveillance without the need for court order etc. The entire IB system works like that. The "deep state" machinery is very much an unquestioned part of government. The constitution has language protecting freedoms, but most of those sections come with a caveat--"nothing in this section shall be allowed to interfere with legitimate government action to preserve law & order etc. etc." What is "legitimate" is left up to interpretation and tradition mostly.

disha · Post by **disha** » 23 Nov 2013 04:25

^^^ Why are we even assuming that CM Guj. Gov. ordered the surveillance?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 23 Nov 2013 04:30

disha wrote:^^^ Why are we even assuming that CM Guj. Gov. ordered the surveillance?

I am not assuming that at all.

What I had in mind was that much of the shouting about "snoop" gate is based on the right to privacy (i.e., the right to not be snooped on by government etc.) which has resonance in places like USA, and I suppose by extension for the DIE whose heads are in the USA, or some imagined version of it. Whereas, in reality, I don't think there is any such right in India as also UK (even in the USA, especially after 9/11), and any home minister can order surveillance for the purpose of gathering information based on suspicious activity by someone.

Everyone must be knowing that let alone home minister, IAS / IPS officers, Home secretary types etc. are all very powerful figures, and have lots of discretion and leeway in what they do, or whom they decide to target. The point is that this is normal, and legal behavior in India. So, all the kolaveri about the lady's privacy etc. is just kathakali.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Nov 2013 05:06

Now Mayaben jumps onto the co-ordinated bandwagon...

Mayawati asks Modi to avoid tall claims, come clean on snooping row

Modi's aide Amit Shah is alleged to have misused his powers for the illegal surveillance of a young woman at the behest of his "saheb."

Massive doses of oxygen pumped via artificial ventilators to keep this snoopgate dud alive, seems like... co-ordinated attacks from across the political spectrum by the C-system's front orgs ...

Cong might really have no other ammo left if this one goes under, the desperation seems to indicate...

Meanwhile, another set of Cong agencies with govt powers lets off certain parties in court cases for want of evidence. Clear indication of alliance formation for 2014 LS polls? Are lulu-paswan out in the cold or will they be 'unofficially' part of the anti-namo front in Bihar?

CBI tells HC it has no evidence against Nitish Kumar in fodder scam

The CBI informed the Jharkhand High Court that no evidence could be found against Bihar Chief Minister Nitish Kumar and JD-U leader Shivanand Tiwari in the Rs.950 crore fodder scam.

Hmmm.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Nov 2013 05:27

so what if pappu's illiterate... at least his team is well-educated... enough to properly spell 'congress' in hindi...

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 23 Nov 2013 05:46

Look PAPPU has BINDI now.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 23 Nov 2013 05:54

He is even saying his family is from Kashmir. Any rubbish and people believe?

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 23 Nov 2013 05:57

Hari Seldon wrote:so what if pappu's illiterate... at least his team is well-educated... enough to properly spell 'congress' in hindi...

Kansgress? As in Mama Kans?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Nov 2013 06:18

^^Looked more like kasangress to moi.. as in kasai + ingress... onlee...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Nov 2013 06:48

what is he hiding in with folded fingers? khoon?

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 23 Nov 2013 10:40

niran · Post by **niran** » 23 Nov 2013 11:23

nageshks wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:so what if pappu's illiterate... at least his team is well-educated... enough to properly spell 'congress' in hindi...
Kansgress? As in Mama Kans?

this is from the time when election was not even announced around
two months ago in reality two million years ago.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Nov 2013 12:55

Watched NM's speech in MP. Last day of polling and all that. Worked the crowd very well, seems like. Called out on Cong lies, oath-breaking and mischief. Reminded folks of the importance of winning booths - said MP can only be won booth by booth. Nicely done.

Evening rally in Dwarka area of Dilli, am told. Pushing for the final lap, am guessing. The man has been tirelessly campaigning, 2-3 meetings a day almost. Wow. Can't be faulted for not putting in all efforts.