INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 23 Nov 2013 04:58

Seen some of the pix onboard the ac and the text or information on the controls, etc are all russian. Is it going to remain that way or when will the Indian Navy change them. Are all or most of the naval personal onboard fluent in russian?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 23 Nov 2013 05:26

Hmm...

I have described the issue here INS Vikramaditya transferred back in Sevmash Dry Dock

An offshore Tug boat pushed the aircraft carrier through the narrow flooding gates. The operation was risky as the dry dock walls were barely few centimeters away from the ships hull. The dry docking was further complicated as the wind set in forcing the task was to be completed in just one hour.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Nov 2013 21:08

I don't see any Blast deflectors on the Vik.
With a Mig 29 with full after burner on ready for take off, the jet blast must be pretty big, they really really need blast deflectors behind the take off position.
Otherwise other aircraft, weapons on the flight deck, crew are going to be at risk, there will be accidents. The tempo of ops will be very slow if the deck has to be clear of other aircraft each time there is a take off.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Nov 2013 21:27

the deck is pretty small, there will be nothing behind the aircraft taking off

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2013 04:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9DcPnr9jOQ
from where did erroor get this?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 24 Nov 2013 09:40

SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9DcPnr9jOQ
from where did erroor get this?

I think he was on board the Vikramaditya as a reporter isn't it ?

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 24 Nov 2013 11:15

prasannasimha wrote:
SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9DcPnr9jOQ
from where did erroor get this?
I think he was on board the Vikramaditya as a reporter isn't it ?

He got it from the same place he got the NATO spying pics from. No flying ops were happening when he as there for the induction.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Nov 2013 11:26

take it to 1080p full screen level, and observe the wake patterns. the ship was on the move.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Nov 2013 17:42

No rip-off or lack of help.The ship's movements and voyage to India is of great interest to many navies,both western and eastern. Dec. 4th is also Navy Day.We may perhaps see a ceremonial send-off on that day .The carrier's escorts and those warships joining it on the voyage must also be with it as it sails home.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Nov 2013 18:14

Nice one liner lalmullah,
Reality is different.
For example in the video posted by Shiv Aroor, if the aircraft takes from from the starboard launch station, the whole flight deck behind it, including parking for the other aircraft further aft on the starboard side are in the line of the jet blast! Deck crew are at risk too!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Nov 2013 19:57

gagan - lets leave benis names in benis please

maybe you are right, possibly i am wrong - lets see what comes up in future pictures

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Nov 2013 21:05

it would have an effect for the shorter T/O path, not so much for the longer one.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 24 Nov 2013 22:29

SaiK wrote:take it to 1080p full screen level, and observe the wake patterns. the ship was on the move.

Saik Ji :

I refer you your Original Post with the YouTube Link :

SaiK wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9DcPnr9jOQ
from where did erroor get this?

You will note that the "Foam" is moving inwards to the Ship's Body.

I now refer you to the following Video :

INS VIKRAMADITYA

Herein when the Ship is moving the "Foam" travels Outwards.

Is this normal i.e. if a Ship is moving the Foam may travel either Inwards or Outwards as I think it can only travel outwards.

Cheers

jahaju · Post by **jahaju** » 24 Nov 2013 22:38

link

Strong as the Sun: Vikramaditya is like no other ship Indian Navy ever had
Manu Pubby Posted online: Sun Nov 24 2013, 00:25 hrs
New Delhi : In July this year, an old game played out in the Barents Sea — a new warship undergoing exhaustive trials by Russian shipbuilders prior to her induction, being shadowed by NATO ships keen to understand what it would be capable of. During the several weeks that the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier underwent trials, a Norwegian NATO intelligence vessel kept company, steadily building up an electronic dossier.
This was a follow-up to last year when a NATO maritime surveillance aircraft heavily buzzed the same ship, dropping buoys to pick up an acoustic profile.

The game is not just old, it is one that Vikramaditya has played in an earlier avatar — as Soviet aircraft cruiser Baku, patrolling the Mediterranean in the late 1980s. However, the intense interest in Vikramaditya — whose name literally translates as Strong as the Sun — now comes from the extensive refit and modernisation it has gone through.

For a Navy that is proud of its legacy of operating aircraft carriers, the Vikramaditya is like no other ship it has had in the fleet before. It is the Navy’s biggest ship for one — surpassing INS Viraat by 10,000 tonnes — and one of the most potent aircraft carriers in this side of the world, in fact the first ‘new’ ship of its class to be based in the Indian Ocean in over two decades. While India had to acquire older technology often in the past due to non-willingness of nations to share strategic assets, the Vikramaditya with its MiG-29K fighters is top of its game.

With the ship likely to reach its home base of Karwar in January, preparations have been made to ensure that it is operationalised at the earliest. As things stand, it is coming without any fighters on board, with only a small chopper complement for utility missions. The plan is to start the first landings and take-offs of the fighters on board within two-three weeks of Vikramaditya reaching India.

At present, Indian pilots are training on simulators to operate from the confines of the small flight deck. A shore-based facility in Goa, where the fighter squadrons will be based, is set to start training MiG-29K pilots on landing and taking off from the carrier.

Part of the training will be conducted during the journey of the carrier from Russia, which is expected to take four to five weeks. The 183 Russian personnel on duty will not only help operate the ship but also train the 1,600-odd Indian sailors on board. Strategies and operational tactics to exploit the platform are already being worked on and will be fine-tuned as the ship’s characteristics are revealed in internal trials and war games.

“The plan is to start operations as soon as possible. Certification of both pilots and air controllers has to be done before the ship can formally join the fleet,” an aviation officer said.

After it sets sail from Severodvinsk, the Vikramaditya will be met by INS Deepak — a tanker ship — near Murmansk. Tailing the aircraft carrier will be a Talwar class frigate, fully geared for deployment in icy waters. Additional ships, including a Delhi-class destroyer, will join the convoy near Gibraltar. From here, one of the two options to come home will be decided — the route through the Suez or going around the continent of Africa. While clearances from the Suez canal authorities have not been obtained yet, the Navy has been trying to get permission to use this shorter route home.

India’s first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, a Majestic-class ship, was acquired from the UK and commissioned on March 4, 1961. The second, INS Viraat, a Centaur-class carrier, came into service more than two decades later, in 1987. Negotiations for acquiring the 44,500-tonne Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, now Vikramaditya, started in 1994 after the ship was put up on offer by Russia.

After prolonged negotiations, the contract was inked in January 2004 and the cost was agreed at Rs 4,881.67 crore for the ship, spares, infrastructure augmentation and documentation. As per the contract, it was scheduled to be completed within 52 weeks at the Sevmash shipyard.

However, once the work began, it was realised that the scope of the project would have to be increased tremendously as parts after parts were found to be malfunctioning and needing replacement. Additional costs were agreed to in December 2009, with the ship to be delivered in 2012. The cost doubled to more than US $2.3 billion by then. A final hiccup occurred in 2012 when the boilers malfunctioned during high-speed trials, putting off the delivery date finally to November 2013.

As part of the offer to India, the Gorshkov was to be converted from a carrier designed to operate VTOL aircraft to a STOBAR (Short take off but arrested recovery) class of carriers. This involved massive redesign and modifications, including changing the flight deck to include a ski-jump and arrester gear. The changes performed were mind-boggling due to the scale of the warship — 1,950 of the 2,500 compartments were modified, for one.

To accommodate the MiG-29K fighters, the mainstay weapon of the ship, a new 14-degree ski-jump was set up.

The ship finally managed to sail in 2012, after a gap of 17 years.

http://static.indianexpress.com/fronten ... ya-123.jpg

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Nov 2013 03:40

Part of the training will be conducted during the journey of the carrier from Russia, which is expected to take four to five weeks.

okay, that (erroor's) should have been a training take off!

the slow motion at 8:30ish on Peregrine's video is just classy!!! tooo mucho!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Nov 2013 07:55

In one of the clips .the one with the coconut breaking ceremony,watch carefully at the parabolic curved structures behind the ship in the adjoining quay.These are the telescopic roof covers for nuclear subs when in the yard,to protect them from sat surveillance.A similar technique is also being used by us at Vizag.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2013 08:11

Can India sell this ship?

May be I should add:

Spain and Italy are on the way.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 Nov 2013 08:25

Philip saar,
Inside that covered submarine dry dock, some internet rumor says there is an oscar II class sub being refurbished for the Indian Navy.

Once again, internet rumor only.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 25 Nov 2013 08:33

NRao wrote:Can India sell this ship?

May be I should add:

Spain and Italy are on the way.

Well the question to be asked NRao is are these two countries up for sale.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2013 08:47

: (.

The island of that ship is really interesting - to say the least (reminds me of Bombay's chawl system). Then I just noticed they have an elevator bang in the flight path of one of those takeoff paths. The parking lot below looks too cramped. And, all this for $2+ billion?

Dunno. I think IN would be better served to use it as much as possible and commission a replacement and then sell it for whatever India gets for it.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 25 Nov 2013 08:52

The problem is that even if you wanted to sell off this ship both Spain and Italy will have to pawn their family jewels to buy it. Forget about running it. Spain for example mothballed their carrier because they couldn't afford to run it.

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Nov 2013 10:39

NRao wrote:: (.

The island of that ship is really interesting - to say the least (reminds me of Bombay's chawl system). Then I just noticed they have an elevator bang in the flight path of one of those takeoff paths. The parking lot below looks too cramped. And, all this for $2+ billion?

Dunno. I think IN would be better served to use it as much as possible and commission a replacement and then sell it for whatever India gets for it.

The reason is that the superstructure is nearer the center than, for instance, in INS Vikrant. That causes a lot of space constraints.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Nov 2013 14:21

NRao wrote:Can India sell this ship?

May be I should add:

Spain and Italy are on the way.

Nyet, but we will barter it with one of the nimitz in 10 years. Just the ship though, airwing will be our desi only.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2013 15:27

Vikky was not as wide like a proper Kuz style carrier...there was a overhang on left but 0 on the right.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... ZN0VrApLjw
vs
any purpose built carrier would have a smaller island and a overhang on right as well to house the island and rear parking area.

Vikrant though of similar tonnage will have a bigger airwing, easier deck space and more responsive power plant due to gas turbine.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 25 Nov 2013 20:14

NRao wrote:Then I just noticed they have an elevator bang in the flight path of one of those takeoff paths. The parking lot below looks too cramped. And, all this for $2+ billion?

Oh, it gets worse. The take-off and landing paths intersect, so aircraft can't take off and land simultaneously. The lack of jet blast deflectors means that the deck behind aircraft taking off has to be cleared of personnel and equipment before each take-off. It slows down operations.

The hull is still a cruiser hull with a lot of weight added topside. How this will affect seakeeping is anyone's guess. I remember someone on BRF (tsarkar?) mentioning that the slim cruiser hull also limits hanger space.

Vikrant, being designed from ground up as a 'proper' carrier, will very likely end up as the superior vessel.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Nov 2013 20:19

Yes,it's not ideal,a wider flight deck would've been better,but there is no shop on the globe where you would get a virtually brand new carrier such as this for such a paltry sum.The QE class is upwards of 6.5B pounds without her aircraft and helo complement too.In addition,there is very useful space behind the island and movement of personnel and utility vehicles could use this space. The RN's Illustrious carriers,and the smaller Italian and Thai flat tops aren't in the same league at all. From the video clips of aircraft landing and taking off,there is no great difficulty with the MIG-29K operating well from the vessel. Furthermore,the IN is hopeful that the NLCA will make the grade and also operate from both the Vikram and IAC-1/Vikrant.Russia did say that if we weren't interested in the carrier they would gladly pick it up! Fortunately,the IN and our strategic planners wisely know the virtue of having a med. sized carrier,with aircraft far more capable than our small remaining fleet of Sea Harriers,which will last us for at least 3 decades.Once the IAC-1 also arrives hopefully by 2017,we will have two carriers operational,one for each seaboard,with at least one always operational ready for any crisis.The Viraat if nursed until 2020 could be replaced by the first of the planned 3-4 amphib flat tops designs of which are being examined.If the design is frozen and the first laid down in2-15,we could expect it to arrive by 2020.
The carrier will be of immediate relevance to the security situ that exists and will be put to operational use immediately after her MIG-29Ks are integrated with the vessel.For the next 3-4 years,the Viraat too will serve as a very useful partner in our sea-control ops in the IOR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2013 20:59

> jet blast deflectors

why could this not have been fitted as its just a panel with hydraulic jacks that sits flush with the deck. not a ati adhuni khan tech for sure.

at 0:47 you can clearly see it on Laioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ3ApvOMMZE

imo Vikky has the deflectors just we didnt see in use during the test videos

Anthony Hines · Post by **Anthony Hines** » 25 Nov 2013 21:00

Wisdom and IN planners dont seem to gel. Why on earth do they keep switching from CATOBAR (Vikrant 1) to STOVL (Viraat) to STOBAR (Vikramaditya) to CATOBAR (Vishal)?

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 25 Nov 2013 21:06

Anthony Hines wrote:Wisdom and IN planners dont seem to gel. Why on earth do they keep switching from CATOBAR (Vikrant 1) to STOVL (Viraat) to STOBAR (Vikramaditya) to CATOBAR (Vishal)?

For the simple reason that these 3 ships are 'bought' and not made in India. Since they are bought ships you have to take what is on offer. Its the same situation as when you buy a 'used car', you have to take the spec with which the car is equipped with rather than one which you would like.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2013 21:10

Fortunately,the IN and our strategic planners wisely know the virtue of having a med. sized carrier

The wisdom of the IN planners was not in question. It was the design of the Vicky and associated costs. Are you saying that the ROI on the Vicky was worth it? IF so, why? What are the reasons? (Curious.)

I feel that even with a little more funds they could have bought a ship that really catered to their needs.

BTW, the Vicky is really not a "used car" - everyone seems to claim it is a brand new ship - with an old hull. No matter what, I just do not see it being an optimal design. Perhaps it was 10 years ago, do not know.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2013 21:15

the cost of getting DCN to build us a brand new clemenceau class ship in 1980s with an airwing of super etendard was unaffordable. france had built them in 1960s so it would be a new project for them as well.
nothing else in catobar was available and even now catobar is only open due to much improved relations with khan..in 1980s we were the big bad soviet ally and enemy of democracy n freedom.

wrt Vikky we might got a new build Cavour & a airwing of Mig29k for same price with 20/20 hindsight...made in italy. surprising the italian arms mafia didnt see this huge opening...but have to remember its the NDA which signed up

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 25 Nov 2013 21:21

Singha wrote:> jet blast deflectors

why could this not have been fitted as its just a panel with hydraulic jacks that sits flush with the deck. not a ati adhuni khan tech for sure.

Good point. My guess is that the cutouts required for the deflectors would have weakened the deck beyond acceptable levels. The only way to solve that would have been to thicken the deck, which would have made the ship heavier, that too above the metacanter. So they came up with a compromise and decided not to add deflectors.

Singha wrote:imo Vikky has the deflectors just we didnt see in use during the test videos

I didn't see cutouts in any pics, either. I hope I'm wrong on this one.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Nov 2013 21:23

hopefully better sense can prevail and these will be fitted locally. the flames from the Mig29k are huge and there is always the chance of a accident or some unwary soul burned to death.
a ship this size should be able to take another 10t without needing huge FCS mods...the deflector plate and jacks would be around he weight of a loaded Mig29K at most.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 25 Nov 2013 21:26

NRao wrote:
Fortunately,the IN and our strategic planners wisely know the virtue of having a med. sized carrier

A mid-size carrier, not the Vik specifically. The Navy had initially rejected the Vik, preferring to focus on the IAC instead. The government basically forced it down their throats.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Nov 2013 21:37

OK, some time-pass analysis:

List of carriers by nation

(going to keep the Big Dog out of this picture), so:

Under construction:

UK - 2
Aussies - 2
India - 2
China - 1
Japan - 1 (Interesting they place their helo destroyer under ACs)

Italian: Cavour - $2.05 billion (2009)
Japan: Izumo - $1.2 billion (need to verify) (2013) (Helo ship - so they claim)
Spain: Juan Carlos I - $600 Million (2009) ??????
UK: HMS Queen Elizabeth - $11 billion (2016)
Aussies: HMAS Canberra - $1.5 billion (helo ship) (2014)
India: Vikrant -

Where would the Vicky stand WRT these ships?

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 25 Nov 2013 21:51

Nobody has really answered my question about MiG's MTOW without a catapult assist on Vikramaditya. On other forums, people are saying that the MiG fighters will only offer minimal value as fleet defence fighters since they can only take off with 4000 kgs instead of 9000 kgs and because of this, this ship will not be effective anywhere else but the IOR and only against non-NATO forces. And based on this, this is overkill and waste of money because to achieve what this ship does can be done with cheaper alternatives.

Will adding a catapult make a big difference and how much does it cost to do so?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Nov 2013 22:39

there is little reason to believe the fulcrum can't take off with most if not all its Max T/O weight. that's what those ski-ramps are for. even the old fulcrums have a pretty high TWR and they have long impressed people (including USAF pilots who were here on exercises) with their impressive short take-offs. after all, that's what they were designed for.
of course, it will have to take the longer T/O path on the deck.

the only limiter would be bring back weight, which is a problem for all carrier-borne fighters. if the aircraft weight is above safe limit the pilot would have to dump fuel and if that's not enough, even weapons.

btw, I wasn't aware we were planning to go to war with NATO anytime soon. especially since they are halfway around the world.

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Nov 2013 22:39

Singha wrote:the cost of getting DCN to build us a brand new clemenceau class ship in 1980s with an airwing of super etendard was unaffordable. france had built them in 1960s so it would be a new project for them as well.
nothing else in catobar was available and even now catobar is only open due to much improved relations with khan..in 1980s we were the big bad soviet ally and enemy of democracy n freedom.

wrt Vikky we might got a new build Cavour & a airwing of Mig29k for same price with 20/20 hindsight...made in italy. surprising the italian arms mafia didnt see this huge opening...but have to remember its the NDA which signed up

Cavour class is a STOVL carrier. It has no angled deck, and no arrestor cables. So can't fit in Mig-29K's without modifications (or pay for F-35B's).

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Nov 2013 22:44

The real drawback of the STOBAR is that you apparently cannot operate E-2D's from it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Nov 2013 08:08

MiG-29K Touch & Go On INS Vikramaditya