Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[jahaju]

New Pakistan army chief's brother died in 1971 Battle of Majors in Fazilka

Manu Pubby Posted online: Sun Dec 01 2013, 04:30 hrs
New Delhi : In Pakistani war folklore, it is one of the most talked about battles of the 1971 war, one of the few operations glorified in an otherwise despondent time for the nation. It was the battle of the Majors — one from each side, both hot-blooded and fierce — who wrestled for the control of a key bridge which finally ended in hand-to-hand combat while soldiers looked on, instructed not to intervene in the duel.
Pakistan Army’s Major Shabbir Sharif died in the battle for Beriwala bridge in Punjab’s Fazilka sector. His heroics won him the Nishan-e-Haider, the nation’s highest gallantry award. Major Narain Singh, who led the Indian counter-attack on the bridge which had been captured by Sharif and his men, too died in the battle. He was awarded the Vir Chakra.

So this week, when Pakistan named Raheel Sharif as its new Army chief, bells rang on either side of the border. Because Raheel is the younger brother of Major Shabbir Sharif.

From Jammu, Major Narain Singh’s wife Urmila, who was a 22-year-old during the war, recalled not just “painful memories” but also the “love and respect” her family has got from Fazilka ever since the battle.

The attack on Beriwala bridge was a crucial Pakistani move on the western front in early December to divert Indian resources from the east where General Niazi’s men were facing a rout.

Major Shabbir, a company commander of the 6 Frontier Force who had already been decorated in the 1965 war, was tasked to capture a bridge on the ditch-cum-bund (DCB) near the Indian town of Fazilka which he managed to do on December 3-4 by overrunning BSF positions on the border.

Major Singh, a company commander of 4 Jat, was chosen to launch a counter-attack a day later and recapture the bridge — the bridge was key since it could have been used by the Pakistanis for a strong armour attack.

These facts are well established but there are two versions of what actually happened in the battle.

The Pakistani version spread by word of mouth and was mentioned in a book Pakistan’s Crisis in Leadership by Maj Gen Fazal Muqueen Khan: “In the ensuing hand-to-hand fight, this brave Indian Major was killed by another extremely brave Company Commander Major Shabbir Sharif.”

According to another Pakistani version, Singh charged on their positions with his company and lobbed a grenade at Sharif, injuring him slightly. When Indian soldiers prepared to fire at Sharif, Singh stopped them and opted for a ‘man-to-man’ combat. He was killed by Sharif who died a day later at the same bridge after he was shot at by an Indian T-54 tank.

But the Indian version, as recounted by officers of the 4 Jat who were present at the battle as well as the official citation of the Vir Chakra, is different.

There are no records or eyewitness accounts to confirm the ‘man-to-man’ combat but the charge of 4 Jat’s Bravo Company led by Singh is well known for its bravery and the losses the battalion suffered — over 60 soldiers were killed and several more injured.

While a hand-to-hand fight did occur when Singh’s soldiers attacked the Pakistani positions under Sharif, Singh did not die on the battlefield in direct combat with his Pakistani counterpart, his fellow soldiers recall.

“It was a very brave and courageous battle between the two but he did not die on the spot. He died while being taken by the Pakistani side to their medical room. Major Singh managed to reach the Pakistani positions after going through a hail of fire but was badly injured by the time they invaded the stronghold,” Col (retd) Vijay Singh, who was then adjutant of 4 Jat, told The Sunday Express from Dehradun.

He said the Pakistani side treated Singh with respect. They picked up the unconscious Major and were taking him for treatment when he died.

Singh’s official citation for the Vir Chakra also reflects this: “Major Narain Singh led his men and charged the objective. In the process, he was hit by a burst from a machine gun but he continued to direct the operation during which he was mortally wounded.”

The versions differ, but both sides agree that the battle of Beriwala was one of exceptional bravery during the 1971 war. Though attacks and counter-attacks continued in the sector, it could never be used by Pakistan for a full armour attack.

When news of the appointment of Gen Sharif as the Pakistan Army chief reached Singh’s wife Urmila, it brought back memories of the December day in 1971 when she was first informed that her husband was missing in action.

“I was so devastated then that no one even came to me with tales of his bravery. It was only later that we got to know what he had done for the nation. Earlier this year, my son showed me what the Pakistani side had described about the battle,” she said over phone from Jammu.

After the war, she went to Fazilka. “The residents have given us so much love. They wanted me to come and settle there with my young son. They called him the saviour of Fazilka. Even now when we go there, everyone remembers the battle and his sacrifice,” she said.

link

[rohitvats]

Many-many moons ago, intrigued by the fact that PAF had imported second hand Mirages from all over the world, I did a detailed research to figure out these sources. And their current status. Using Pakistan Defense websites and other international aviation linked websites/blogs, I'd managed to figure out in some detail the status of their fleet - and how the second hand aircraft were being used. But alas! all went down the drain when my laptop got flicked. Insha' Allah! One of these days....

[krish.pf]

To add to what Karan M has posted before,

#JF-17 doesnt have an internal Jammer.

#JF-17 can carry 2, (max 4??) MRAAMS(SD-10s). The PK of AIM-120 is around 45%, that too against clueless, blindfolded enemies like the Iraqis and the Serbs. Do note that some of the Iraqi aircraft didnt even have radar lock warning, let alone MAWS. Against an Airforce with AWACS, better situational awareness, Jammers, etc etc expect the PK to drop even if the Variant is the latest AIM-120. And the greens only have the C5 version. And we are not even talking about the AIM-120s here, but Chinese junk PL-12/SD-10 which the PAF were FORCED to acquire when the french tried to fleece the PAF, like they did and are still doing to us. God knows what the PK for the SD-10s will be.

If this continues, pretty soon PAF will take the status of the PN.

#It's G rating is 8Gs. It's not a 9G fighter.

#It has a max angle of attack of 26 degrees. LCAs max controllable angle of attack is only 22 now, and will be 24 at FOC. That's a 2 degree massive advantage over FOC Tejas!!

[Kartik]

krish.pf, the actual max alpha for the Tejas Mk1 will be 26 degrees as per Cmdr Maolankar, not 24 degrees. It has already achieved 24 degrees. I got it straight from the horse's mouth at AI-'13.

[Karan M]

On a lighter note:

Bundaar updates

The Pakistani security apparatus and allied engineers not only produced the JF-17 Thunder prototype in a record period of two-and-a-half years as against a period of 8-9 years taken in the advanced world on the first model of a combat aircraft , they have also taken the Pakistani contribution in the avionics’ preparation to the optimum level of 70 per cent of the Pak-China joint endeavour and to a satisfactory figure of 58 per cent in the preparation of other essential components.

Talking to The News, Pakistani functionaries who had been working in commanding positions in the manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder disclosed that China’s cooperation has been efficiently reciprocated by Pakistani engineers and technicians whose talent has been acknowledged by Chinese scientists.

Given the high level of this talent, the JF-17 Thunder aircraft can be easily compared even with some highly efficient blocks/models of F-16 especially in the area of avionics. Avionics in fact has enabled the JF-17 planes to acquire considerable airpower edge over the adversary’s aircraft.

And in the area of acceleration forces that enable the aircraft to overcome the gravitational pull, JF-17 is a G-8 plane as compared with F-16 that is a G-9 plane (G denotes acceleration force applied against the Gravitational pull to lift the aircraft). In this manner, JF-17 is no less capable and efficient an aircraft than many advanced planes of the world.

While the credit for accomplishing this excellence goes primarily to the Chinese friends, the role of Pakistani engineers, technicians and officials has been equally remarkable as also acknowledged by the Chinese company Avic (China Aviation Import-Export Corporation).

One of the prime factors that provided fresh impetus to JF-17 co-production was the frequent visits of senior functionaries of PAF to different parts of the world to procure international specifications, including those matching with first-class American aviation standards that are rated as the best standards. It was due to these exclusive efforts of PAF seniors or their frequent visits to countries having soft corner for Pakistan that a G-8 aircraft was produced.

As for the difference between G-8 and G-9, that is only due to metallurgy in use of both China and Pakistan. According to sources, producing a G-8 aircraft was not an easy task too. For this purpose the PAF seniors also sought the technical assistance of experts of a Middle Eastern country that is not much friendly with Pakistan. That diplomatic overture of PAF did work well and the aircraft with many capabilities no less than most of the modern warplanes of the contemporary world came into production within a record, brief period of two to two-and-half years.

Chinese friends are happy over the vigorous input of Pakistani engineers and functionaries that they say has resulted in a big success of international level with export orders expected from many countries. Appreciation has been especially expressed for Pakistanis’ fine diplomacy and specification-collecting skills.

When The News posed a question what hope the people of Pakistan should pin on its pride co-production, JF-17 Thunder, the sources replied: “It is now one of the best and most reliable combat planes of the world as, apart from the G-8 versus G-9 factor, its radar range is 60 aeronautical miles which comes on a par with advanced international standards. Moreover, JF-17 is equipped with a far more advanced BVR system i.e. Beyond Visual Range system that gives it an edge over the enemy aircraft which it can hit from a considerable distance and move far away with full speed in a flash after firing the missile.

On a lighter note:
Bundaar updates

wow. Is this a parody article from a mainstream news paper. It sounds like a chapter in a bad romance novel.

Several things are re-confirmed by the above article.

• Pakistanis just do not know what they are talking about.
• They thrive on stealing
• They do not simply understand or even appreciate the complexities of technologies involved. They are simply clueless.
• They want to depend on some country or the other for their entire achievements
• They fool themselves and their citizens
• Pakistanis are willing to believe in their own tall claims
• They believe in the extraordinary skills of their own scientists and engineers in a country which to-date has only 8 patents (OK, that was a few years ago; may be it is 10 now)
• They are shameless
• They provide unending mirth to the rest of the world
• They think that the rest of the foolish world buys their myth-making

[Lalmohan]

rawheel's birader may have died in honourable combat
but that doesn't mean that rawheel himself is possessed of the same qualities
we need to stop this ridiculous pampering

[Karan M]

On a more serious note, SIPRI data shows PAF stocking up on PGMs and AAMs. These are a mix of basic (LT-2) to better (Paveway/JDAM/LS-3). Their SRAAM inventory is a gen behind IAF without HMS (for JF-17). MAR-1 can be handled by layered defence when Barak-2/MRSAM come in. Ditto for CM-400.

Basically, expect strikes on fwd tactical AFB where we keep our short ranged aircraft. The way out for the IAF then is to mount an intensive counter air campaign and target these platforms from opening day. PAF will then seek to conserve its assets.

Also, high time IAF looked at radar directed CIWS for cheap ways to take out PGMs.

JF-17 - specific

MAR-1 ARM- 100
C-802 AShM -50
CM-400 AKG AShM-50
PL-12/SD-10 BVR AAM- 600
LS-3 (750) - LGB/GPS-INS PGM
LS-6 (500) - GPS-INS PGM (500 kg)
LT-2 (750) - Plain LGB
PL-5E (900)- WVR AAM

For F-16
Paveway - 1600, 700 GBU-12 and 300 GBU-10
JDAM- 500
AMRAAM- 500
Sidewinder AIM-9L/M- 200

[Mihir]

On a lighter note:

Bundaar updates

The Pakistani security apparatus and allied engineers not only produced the JF-17 Thunder prototype in a record period of two-and-a-half years as against a period of 8-9 years taken in the advanced world on the first model of a combat aircraft , they have also taken the Pakistani contribution in the avionics’ preparation to the optimum level of 70 per cent of the Pak-China joint endeavour and to a satisfactory figure of 58 per cent in the preparation of other essential components.

Holy Schmidt, that's some sloppy reporting. Makes the likes of Rajat Pandit and the exhalted Prasunji look like erudite scholars in comparison. Sometimes, the chest-thumping the Pakis do about the JF-17 is downright embarrassing.

Having said that, I would urge everyone to look at the JF-17 from the Pakistani perspective before heaping ridicule on it. And looking at it from an unbiased perspective, I have to admit that the Paksitanis have done remarkably well given the circumstances.

What did the PAF have in the late nineties, when the Thunder was conceived? A hundred or so ROSE upgraded Mirages, a handful of obsolescent F-16s that had to be carefully husbanded due to lack of support from Lockheed and a dwindling cache of spares, and a bunch of ancient F-7s that were basically cannon fodder against the IAF. A pitiable fleet.

With the JF-17, they got themselves a fairly decent multi-role fighter, one that is at least as capable as the Bison, if not more. It provides the PAF with BVR capability, something they lacked during the Kargil War. The capability itself may be very rudimentary, but it is far better than nothing. It is cheap, and can therefore be procured in numbers. Granted, the whole "jointly developed with the Chinese" part is bull. But that in itself means little. Even if they simply embedded PAF/PAC teams as observers during the development effort, it gave them the opportunity to learn about combat aircraft development. Assembling it at Kamra has, for the first time, given them experience with aircraft manufacturing. Could they use the knowledge to fix little niggles and implement minor upgrades on their own? If yes, then that puts them leagues ahead of where they were in 1999.

Overall, not bad for a country with a no industrial base to speak of, very few skilled engineers and technicians, and a economy that produces little of value.

[Eric Leiderman]

It has a large manafacturing base as far as terrorism is concerned
This has export potentail which has already been achieved as far as its neighbourhood is concerned and is now being branded and exported as Sunni freedom fighters in other locations

[rohitvats]

Both JF-17 and Al-Khalid tank represent maximum gains being extracted by a country (read armed forces) for the resources they have. They just don't have the resources for anything more fancy. Period.

There is nothing in western stable of aircrafts which PAF can buy in numbers to affect the much required transition from older generation airplanes to newer ones. And in quantity. F-16 Block XX a/c can be brought in only that much numbers - 100 or 120 to max. Even that is a stretch. They can get 4-5 Squadrons at max of this a/c type. Rest of the air force needs replacement as of yesterday. That is where JF-17 comes in. While we may say things about this aircraft, from PAF's perspective it does represent a better and more advanced option as compared with J-7 and Mirages in inventory.

Same goes for AEW&C aircraft - while a/c from two nations which cannot talk to each other or to entire fleet is nightmarish situation for any nation, it is not so from PAF's perspective. They have assets in place which provide them AEW capability knowing Pakistanis, they will get something to optimize the situation. It is all or nothing situation for them.

[vivek_ahuja]

Rohit, Mihir,

Look, I don't think anybody is arguing that they have a decent airplane in hand with the JF-17. And as you guys have already stated, it fills a role for the PAF that is useful to them and, when deployed in numbers, dangerous to us as well.

But that said, personally speaking, I don't spare the Pakis when they come along pretending as if that aircraft is "South Asia's" ( ) answer to the F-22.

On a sidenote, I think the "17" in JF-17 was chosen only because it is +1 on the F-16. Ah, I see another myth building between the Paki ears!

-Vivek

[Aditya G]

2002 was probably when the PAF was most vulnerable. The last decade has been good for them as well as Pakistani military aviation in general.

Compared to then, PAF now has:

1. Range of guided rocket munitions
2. Swedish AEW - I expect it to be a competent and mature system
3. In Flight Refueling
4. Newer build JF-17s (F-7PGs are also quite new)
5. Higher airlift due to new C-130s and C-235s. IIRC the C-130s are armed with EO sensors also for loitering COIN Ops

PN meanwhile has acquired Z-9s and P-3s. Now ATRs have joined the fleet which will ultimately replace the Atlantics and Fokkers

PA AH-1 fleet is also doing well with new tech as well as operational experience. New Mi-17s have been acquired.

Having said that, the last 10 years have also witnessed the IAF transforming into a different league of capabilities altogether, and this difference will continue to rise. But the IAF has a tougher mission to perform due to aggressive posture, while PAF's primary aim will be to defend the airspace.

[tsarkar]

Many-many moons ago, intrigued by the fact that PAF had imported second hand Mirages from all over the world, I did a detailed research to figure out these sources. And their current status. Using Pakistan Defense websites and other international aviation linked websites/blogs, I'd managed to figure out in some detail the status of their fleet - and how the second hand aircraft were being used. But alas! all went down the drain when my laptop got flicked. Insha' Allah! One of these days....

Here you go. Mirage & F-16s were their only air to sea capable platforms, primarily because of the radars. PAF followed the IAF practice of buying MiG-21 trainers from any sources. They face the same problem - lack of maintenance records of previous users, leading to lack of awareness of past defects, leading to same, if not higher, crash rate as MiG21.

# current # inducted Type Inducted Squadron Squadron Name Wing Command Based
2 3 Mirage-IIIDP ROSE-I 1967 (BF1) 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
16 18 Mirage-IIIEP 1967 (BF1) 15 Cobras 34 Central Rafiqui, Shorkot Road
2 3 Mirage-IIIRP 1967 (BF1)
2 2 Mirage-IIIDP ROSE-I 1970 (BF2) 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
28 28 Mirage-5PA 1970 (BF2) CCS Skybolt CCS Central Mushaf, Sargodha
9 10 Mirage-IIIRP 1975 (BF3)
2 2 Mirage-5DPA2 1979 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
15-2 18 Mirage-5PA2 1979
9-1 12 Mirage-5PA3 1979 8 Haider 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
7 7 Mirage-IIIOD 1990 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
28 32 Mirage-IIIOE ROSE-I 1990 7 Bandits 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
6 6 Mirage-IIIDF 1996 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
16 19 Mirage-5F ROSE-II 1996 25 Eagles Shahbaz, Jacobabad
14 14 Mirage-5F ROSE-III 1996 27 Zarrars 34 Central Rafiqui, Shorkot Road
1 1 Mirage-IIIDL 2000 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
9 9 Mirage-IIIEL 2000
4-1 4 Mirage-5DD 2002 22 (OCU) Ghazis 32 Southern Masroor, Karachi
6 6 Mirage-5D 2002
4 4 Mirage-5DR 2004

[VinodTK]

From The Hindu:Pakistan army warns of ‘disproportionate response’ in future wars

Army’s mother document” says growing Indian military power “disturbs strategic equilibrium of the region”

Pakistan’s official Army Doctrine calls on the country to “invoke disproportionate responses” in future wars with India, a copy of the document obtained by TheHindu has revealed. “The causes of conflict with the potential to escalate to the use of violence,” the classified internal document states, “emanate from the unresolved issue of Kashmir, the violation of treaty arrangements on sharing of natural resources, and the organised and deliberate support by external powers to militant organisations.”

The December, 2011, Doctrine does not name any country as a threat, but Pakistan has accused India of seeking to block its access to Indus waters, and backing terrorism. The Doctrine describes itself as the “army’s mother document” and “the fountainhead for all subordinate doctrines.”

Indian military sources told TheHindu the study was commissioned in the summer of 2008, soon after former chief of army staff General Pervez Kayani took office. It evolved through intensive discussions of the Kargil war of 1999 and the near-war that followed the December, 2001, terrorist attack on Parliament House

Georgetown University scholar Dr. C. Christine, author of a forthcoming book, Fighting to the End, says the Doctrine confirms what scholars have long known. “It tells us several interesting things,” she says, “among them that the Pakistan army sees Indian military modernisation as a threat, but that they also think nuclear weapons will insulate them from the consequences of pursuing high-risk strategies, like backing jihadist clients.”

Future wars, the Doctrine states, “will be characterised by high-intensity, high-tempo operations under a relatively transparent battle-space environment.” This, it states, is because of the “incremental increase in asymmetry of conventional forces and [the] nuclear overhang” — evident references to the programme of rapid modernisation India put into place after the 2001-2002 crisis, and both countries’ efforts to expand their nuclear weapons capabilities.

In the view of the Doctrine’s authors, de-facto parity between the two countries induced “through a combination of conventional and nuclear deterrence, has obviated the [likelihood of] conventional war.”

However, the Doctrine argues, “a disparity at the conventional plane continues to grow disproportionately, which too disturbs the strategic equilibrium of the region.” This, it states, “depletes peaceful diplomacy and dialogue, replacing it with coercion on the upper planes and violence across the lower-ends of the spectrum.”

“What worries Pakistan’s army,” says the former Indian Army vice-chief, Arvinder Lamba, “is their inability to organise offensive or defensive responses to our growing rapid mobilisation capacity. Their challenge is to deter us from striking by threatening nuclear weapons use in the face of the least provocation.

“India’s government and military must seek perceptual clarity on exactly what we intend to do in the face of such threats,” he said.

The Doctrine states that Pakistan will use nuclear weapons “only as a last resort, given its scale and scope of destruction.” Nuclear parity between India and Pakistan, it argues, “does not accrue any substantial military advantage to either side, other than maintaining the status quo.”

“In a nuclear deterrent environment,” it adds, “war is unlikely to create decisive military or political advantage.” However, it argues that “integration and synergy between conventional and nuclear forces, maintaining both at an appropriate level… [will avoid] an open-ended arms race.”

It does not state what the red lines compelling nuclear weapons use might be, but says future strategic “force development centres around developing and maintaining credible minimum deterrence, based on a [land, sea and air] triad, including an assured second-strike capability [to an Indian nuclear first-strike].”

“Lots of this thinking has been operationalised in Pakistan’s military,” says Rana Banerjee, a New Delhi-based expert on the Pakistan army, and former Research and Analysis Wing official. “Basically, this document signals they intend to react to even limited Indian military operations with disproportionate force, and hope fear of escalation deters New Delhi from reacting to events like 26/11.”

[VijayN]

Good read: Pakistan's fear of Indo US axis!!

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/n ... epage=true

Would be curious to know, if we have something on these lines.

[Aditya G]

congress.gov:

Authorizes the President to transfer on a grant basis to Pakistan in each of FY2014-FY2016 one of the OLIVER HAZARD PERRY class guided missile frigates USS KLAKRING, USS DE WERT, and USS ROBERT G. BRADLEY 15 days after certifying to Congress that Pakistan is: (1) cooperating with the United States in counterterrorism and nonproliferation efforts, (2) not supporting terrorist activities against the United States in Afghanistan or elsewhere, (3) taking steps towards releasing Dr. Shakil Afridi, (4) taking steps to dismantle improvised explosive device (IED) networks, (5) providing humanitarian groups with access to detainees and other Pakistani civilians, and (6) ensuring that Pakistan's military and intelligence agencies are not intervening into Pakistan's political and judicial processes.

USN is more than happy to hot transfer older vessels - I bet this transfer to Pak will go thru despite the riders

The Perrys are ASW platforms known for their good build. They like a missile capability though it should be easy to retrofit inclined launchers for Harpoon or C802 missiles. AAW is a problem area though. There are rumours of Genesis upgrade from Turkey though i believe it is only a limited upgrade and not the full genesis package.

[MN Kumar]

From the Hindu link:

Pakistan’s official Army Doctrine calls on the country to “invoke disproportionate responses” in future wars with India, a copy of the document obtained by TheHindu has revealed. “The causes of conflict with the potential to escalate to the use of violence,” the classified internal document states, “emanate from the unresolved issue of Kashmir, the violation of treaty arrangements on sharing of natural resources, and the organised and deliberate support by external powers to militant organisations.”

This clearly seems to be another pathetic attempt to get the international community into the picture.

[tsarkar]

The Perrys are ASW platforms known for their good build.

Yes, US ships those days had significant weight/space reservations for future growth. Look how much Arleigh Burke class has grown in weight

They like a missile capability though it should be easy to retrofit inclined launchers for Harpoon or C802 missiles.

That is where the inclined Harpoon launchers from the Amazons are probably going.

Bigger problem if they mounted Babur in those large hangers like Dhanush, went into the sea and targeted Indian population/industrial centers along the coast like Dwarka and used Google Maps for feeding GPS/INS coordinates.

[Singha]

for some reason the USN broke up no less than 24 of the large capable 8000t Spruance class ships in the last decade alone, instead of passing them off to TSP type rogues. many were just 20 yrs old and could have served for another 20 with a MLU.

apart from 2 x SH60, it carried comprehensive arms in asroc, RAM, ESSM, harpoon and a 61cell launcher for any missile.

[Aditya G]

for some reason the USN broke up no less than 24 of the large capable 8000t Spruance class ships in the last decade alone, instead of passing them off to TSP type rogues. many were just 20 yrs old and could have served for another 20 with a MLU.

apart from 2 x SH60, it carried comprehensive arms in asroc, RAM, ESSM, harpoon and a 61cell launcher for any missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruance-class_destroyer


The last Spruance-class destroyer on active service, USS Cushing, was decommissioned on 21 September 2005. It was then offered to the Pakistan Navy, but was sunk as a target 29 April 2009.

[Singha]

I guess the pakis has nowhere near the opex to run these large ships. without SM2 missiles, they depended for protection on accompanying AAW/CVN unit - something the TSPN cannot provide. however usa (for a fee) could have filled that Mk41 VLS with huge number of ESSM to provide the TSPN with a real porcupine type AKIZUKI class...

its amazing the khan can scrap 20 perfectly MLUable ships of 8000t size and not feel any pain in service delivery worldwide. speaks volumes of their build rate and staying power in a serious fight. the next 10 navies combined are not even remotely in their league.

[arun]

X Posted from the TSP thread.

Guys today is 16 the December and day when momin army surrender to Kufar army 42 years ago.

Jehadi Shetty said Shahbaz also asked (demanded) MMS to restart playing cricket with Pakis as Modi will not do it.

1971 article on the surrender of the uniformed jihadis of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The surrender should have taken some of the gloss of the wholly misplaced sense of Mohammadden religion inspired supremacist braggadocio inherent in the comment "One Pakistani soldier equals five Indians" :

Fri. Dec 17, 1971

When The Tiger Of Pakistan Was Humbled By Surrender

By HENRY BRADSHER
Washington Star

Calcutta – “I am ‘Tiger’ Niazi –that’s the name I got in World WarII.”

Lt. Gen. Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi, a bullheaded man of 52 years, looked and acted tough in a talk with this correspondent last month in Dacca. He commanded all Pakistani troops in East Pakistan.

“You know off course that I got the M.C.(British military Cross For Valor In Combat) at Kohima” Niazi said. The last Japanese offensive into British India was stopped at Kohima in some of the bitterest fighting of the war more than a quarter of a century ago.

This is the man who had been ordered by the Pakistani President and Army Commander Gen. Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan , to fight to the last man in Dacca. Niazi said he intended to do it.

With Dacca cut off and the Indian Army Shelling it from several sides, Yahya Khan was trying to buy as much time as possible before the Bangla Desh Government could set itself up in the capital.

Yahya Khan was apparently hoping for some sort of diplomatic miracle to keep him from having to admit the loss of East Pakistan.
Or, India wonders, maybe he still hopes the United States or China could intervene.

“I had a division in Lahore until last April – I was a Major General then – and I came over here after March 25,” Niazi said last month. The Pakistan Army crack-down on the local nationalist movement began March 25 with savage repression.

Niazi expressed confidence last month that China would help Pakistan in case of war with India by causing a diversionary threat on India’s northern border.

India then had eight or ten divisions on East Pakistan’s borders, he said. “They’l have to turn two divisions around” to face the Chinese he said.

As for the remainder that India could use against his own forces, which Niazi said comprised four divisions, “I can knock the hell out of them.”

One Pakistani soldier equals five Indians he said.

That was last month.

Now the India Army and local insurgents have cleared most of the region of Pakistani troops. China has not done anything significant.
But Niazi still talked tough.

While East Pakistani Governor, A.M.Malik, and many other civil officials have admitted defeat by seeking Red Cross protection, and the general handling civil affairs tried unsuccessfully to arrange a surrender, Niazi was ready to fight to the death as ordered.

The orders changed and “Tiger” Niazi has surrendered Dacca to the mixed forces of the Indian Army and the Mukti Bahini guerrillas of Bangla Desh.

From Here:

Google

[arun]

X Posted from the TSP thread.

Excerpt from Bangladeshi newspaper Daily Star on the genocide committed by the uniformed jihadis of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

On June 13, 1971, The Sunday Times of London ran a 16 column (2-page) story, titled GENOCIDE, on the atrocities that were being carried out in Bangladesh, then East Pakistan. The world was stunned by this revelatory piece by a Pakistani journalist — Anthony Mascarenhas — invited by its military to see the operations conducted by them. Overcome by revulsion of what he saw, he published the following report after moving first his family, and then himself, to UK. The writer was Assistant Editor, Morning News, Karachi.

Given the ongoing War Crimes trial and the death penalty meted out to one of the perpetrators,and to mark the Intellectual Martyrs Day, we reprint The Sunday Times report to remind our readers of the genocide that was perpetrated on the people of Bangladesh. This report completely shattered the Pakistani propoganda effort and helped to turn world public opinion in favour of our Liberation War. This is Part One of a Three Part series. –Editor

Genocide Part 1

Gencocide Part 2

Gencocide Part 3

[Kartik]

X Posted from the TSP thread.

Guys today is 16 the December and day when momin army surrender to Kufar army 42 years ago.

Jehadi Shetty said Shahbaz also asked (demanded) MMS to restart playing cricket with Pakis as Modi will not do it.

1971 article on the surrender of the uniformed jihadis of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The surrender should have taken some of the gloss of the wholly misplaced sense of Mohammadden religion inspired supremacist braggadocio inherent in the comment "One Pakistani soldier equals five Indians" :

Fri. Dec 17, 1971

When The Tiger Of Pakistan Was Humbled By Surrender

By HENRY BRADSHER
Washington Star

Calcutta – “I am ‘Tiger’ Niazi –that’s the name I got in World WarII.”

Lt. Gen. Amir Abdullah Khan Niazi, a bullheaded man of 52 years, looked and acted tough in a talk with this correspondent last month in Dacca. He commanded all Pakistani troops in East Pakistan.

“You know off course that I got the M.C.(British military Cross For Valor In Combat) at Kohima” Niazi said. The last Japanese offensive into British India was stopped at Kohima in some of the bitterest fighting of the war more than a quarter of a century ago.

This is the man who had been ordered by the Pakistani President and Army Commander Gen. Agha Mohammed Yahya Khan , to fight to the last man in Dacca. Niazi said he intended to do it.

With Dacca cut off and the Indian Army Shelling it from several sides, Yahya Khan was trying to buy as much time as possible before the Bangla Desh Government could set itself up in the capital.

Yahya Khan was apparently hoping for some sort of diplomatic miracle to keep him from having to admit the loss of East Pakistan.
Or, India wonders, maybe he still hopes the United States or China could intervene.

“I had a division in Lahore until last April – I was a Major General then – and I came over here after March 25,” Niazi said last month. The Pakistan Army crack-down on the local nationalist movement began March 25 with savage repression.

Niazi expressed confidence last month that China would help Pakistan in case of war with India by causing a diversionary threat on India’s northern border.

India then had eight or ten divisions on East Pakistan’s borders, he said. “They’l have to turn two divisions around” to face the Chinese he said.

As for the remainder that India could use against his own forces, which Niazi said comprised four divisions, “I can knock the hell out of them.”

One Pakistani soldier equals five Indians he said.

That was last month.

Now the India Army and local insurgents have cleared most of the region of Pakistani troops. China has not done anything significant.
But Niazi still talked tough.

While East Pakistani Governor, A.M.Malik, and many other civil officials have admitted defeat by seeking Red Cross protection, and the general handling civil affairs tried unsuccessfully to arrange a surrender, Niazi was ready to fight to the death as ordered.

The orders changed and “Tiger” Niazi has surrendered Dacca to the mixed forces of the Indian Army and the Mukti Bahini guerrillas of Bangla Desh.

From Here:

Google

typical bluster from a Paki..unable to back it up, the bugger had to be the one to sign the document of surrender..

[Austin]

Pakistan begins production of new fighter jet

Kamra, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday launched production of a new version of a combat aircraft featuring upgraded avionics and weapons system.

The plane, to be called Block-II JF-17, will be manufactured at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex west of Islamabad, which has so far produced 50 older-model Block-I JF-17s for the air force.

The complex on Wednesday formally handed over the 50th indigenously produced Block-I JF-17 Thunder aircraft to the air force at a ceremony presided over by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

The JF-17 Thunder has been co-developed and co-produced with the China National Aero-technology Import and Export Corporation.

“The indigenous manufacturing of JF-17s will not only lead to self-reliance and industrialisation but will also further strengthen Pakistan’s friendship with China,” Sharif told the ceremony.

“The first Block-II JF-17 will be ready by June next year,” chief project director Air Vice Marshal Javaid Ahmad told AFP.

The Block-II will have improved versions of avionics sub-systems, air-to-air refuelling capability, additional weapons carriage capability and some extra operational capabilities.

Ahmad said several countries in Central Asia, South America and Africa had shown interest in buying the new plane.

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, which overhauls and rebuilds the air force’s whole range of combat aircraft, has the capacity to roll out 16-25 aircraft per year.

[Kartik]

Ugly solution for IFR on the JF-17..the placement of the probe so near to the canopy means that if the pilot misses the basket when trying to achieve contact, there is a very real chance of the basket hitting the canopy..

[jamwal]

Cheeni birathers are fairer than every Paki and taller than most. What blasphemy is this ?

[Paul]

^^^Kartik you may right. The Boeing JSF solution had a similar refuelling probe. Possibly one reason why it lost out on the JSF contract.

Watch from 1:24 onwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbPx6rQO3qg

[member_22539]

One question to the experts - Is the 3000 km plus range of JF-17 true and if so, why such a disparity between it and the LCA?

[Kartik]

Take it with a massive pinch of salt. Its the bloody ferry range with no payload for sure.

[Karan M]

Man...the IFR plumbing looks like local abdul got out of his bicycle shop, yelled "munna pejkas, hathodi and do number ka pana laa" and proceeded to whack away at the aircraft till the tube was attached onlee.

[Karan M]

Pakistan begins production of new fighter jet

Kamra, Pakistan: Pakistan on Wednesday launched production of a new version of a combat aircraft featuring upgraded avionics and weapons system.

The plane, to be called Block-II JF-17, will be manufactured at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex west of Islamabad, which has so far produced 50 older-model Block-I JF-17s for the air force.

The complex on Wednesday formally handed over the 50th indigenously produced Block-I JF-17 Thunder aircraft to the air force at a ceremony presided over by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

The JF-17 Thunder has been co-developed and co-produced with the China National Aero-technology Import and Export Corporation.

“The indigenous manufacturing of JF-17s will not only lead to self-reliance and industrialisation but will also further strengthen Pakistan’s friendship with China,” Sharif told the ceremony.

“The first Block-II JF-17 will be ready by June next year,” chief project director Air Vice Marshal Javaid Ahmad told AFP.

The Block-II will have improved versions of avionics sub-systems, air-to-air refuelling capability, additional weapons carriage capability and some extra operational capabilities.

Ahmad said several countries in Central Asia, South America and Africa had shown interest in buying the new plane.

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, which overhauls and rebuilds the air force’s whole range of combat aircraft, has the capacity to roll out 16-25 aircraft per year.

16-25 aircraft per year means they are basically kit bashing, assembling the aircraft from modules supplied by PRC.

[Singha]

I doubt they will be hitting such a high production rate. the mirages and F6/F7 will have to soldier on in batches until 2020 just like our Mig27/Jags/Bisons.

[Indranil]

Ugly solution for IFR on the JF-17..the placement of the probe so near to the canopy means that if the pilot misses the basket when trying to achieve contact, there is a very real chance of the basket hitting the canopy..

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1387401574

I must say, that is the most grotesque IFR probe I have seen till now. Looks like they did not have any space/money to even take the pipe to the front internally and then have a fixed probe out of the nose (like that of Rafale, Mirage).

In their defense the probe is still in front of the pilot's head. I always wondered how a Gripen pilot would have to crane his neck back in order to see where his probe is with respect to the basket.

Here they speak of the Czech experience.

The report explains that performing an in-flight refueling is not an easy task. In the final phase of the connection, the pilot must be able to approximate the location of the refueling basket at about 5 km/h. If the connection is successful, the pilot needs to be attentive and make sure that the edge of the basket should be at about 30 cm from the canopy.

[RajD]

Sorry folks, didn't know where to post.
The latest - IDRW.ORG site has been hacked most probably by some pakis. Its diverting to ADRB( see about us at the bottom) with a photograph of the paki army chief in the middle.
It was ok in the morning.
Mods pleas move the message to the appropriate thread if necessary.
Regards.
Rajendra

[Karan M]

it was anyways a copypaste site.

[krish.pf]

South African Mirages. See the resemblance? The south Africans were the ones who gave the refueling kits initially for the PAF Mirages.

[Karan M]

Good find

(but man o man is that an ugly installation)

[Austin]

Not sure if this was posted , JF-17 @ recent Dubai Air Show

http://youtu.be/bkzJM6mB4_w

[krish.pf]

It's more than an eyesore. Bandaar needs an undie.