INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

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Shalav
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

vasu raya wrote:...if the catapult jet engine is at an offset from the nosewheel towbar i.e., behind the towbar position by a good plane length or more, that offset could be used for water braking too.
Consider the following requirements for a turbine to work efficiently in this configuration.

- flexible clean air intake for the entire length of the track
- flexible exhaust for the entire length of the track.
- flexible fuel lines for the entire length of the track.
- ability to withstand 20+ g from a standing start, and another 20+ g to stop - which means components which can be stressed to this level. To date nothing produced by man has this shock proof ability continuously without breaking. Parts will need to be replaced constantly instead of during regular scheduled maintenance. Even an offset ball bearing (<1mm) will produce so much vibration the vanes will shake themselves apart and destroy the engine, necessitating a complete replacement and overhaul of the engine.

Too many things can go wrong for this to be a practical solution.
Philip
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Singha,yes,they have many surface warfare assets like Sovs and home designed DDGs,etc.However,they have not worked together as part of a carrier task force and will have to create their own doctrine for operating their carriers and refine their skills.They have plenty of intel though,having snooped on western navies and their carrier ops for decades.As you said,the establishment of a functional air arm is crucial.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Shalav wrote:Consider the following requirements for a turbine to work efficiently in this configuration.

- flexible clean air intake for the entire length of the track
- flexible exhaust for the entire length of the track.
Much like inlet and exhaust fans in wind tunnels, something decent can be done
Shalav wrote:- flexible fuel lines for the entire length of the track.
- ability to withstand 20+ g from a standing start, and another 20+ g to stop - which means components which can be stressed to this level. To date nothing produced by man has this shock proof ability continuously without breaking. Parts will need to be replaced constantly instead of during regular scheduled maintenance. Even an offset ball bearing (<1mm) will produce so much vibration the vanes will shake themselves apart and destroy the engine, necessitating a complete replacement and overhaul of the engine.
not sure where the 20g figure is coming from, check this video of a C-17 deploying reverse thrusters and stopping in under 2000ft, at an estimated total weight of 200tons, each engine can safely stop 50tons in that distance. Each engine weighs about 3.2tons so itself can be stopped in under 50m using the same force. Then there is a fuel tank right above the engine in the wing going through the same stresses. The manned naval fighters decelerate to zero speed under 100m on the flight deck.

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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

how often does the C17 use extreme braking vs the 1000s of time a CBG kit will have to go through. removing and repairing this launcher engine will also be a major hassle. even the steam catapult machinery is 90m long , cumbersome and sits on its own deck between the top and the roof of the hangar. venting the hot exhaust from the engine rushing below the deck is another hazard.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

This is a comment I have seen "The only problem reverse thrust puts huge strains on the wing joins on the fuselage- the c-17 is limited to 100 hours of reverse thrust over the airframe lifetime."

maybe its not really the engines, its the mount, in our case it needn't be light weight as its not flying

even for engines, there should be fighter aircraft MRO already on the A/C, few more engines of the same type for the launcher ain't a big deal neither is contained exhaust as much a hazard as on the open flight deck above

and EMALS can work for ski jumps?
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_23455 »

vasu raya wrote: and EMALS can work for ski jumps?
Theoretically, yes it can. But as Shalav's post earlier in this thread brings out, those are two different approaches to solve a problem.

Seems to be a more expensive solution and violative of the KISS principle, so may end up going nowhere in the end.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

EMALS can work for ski jumps?
IF the EMALS cannot generate enough power.

IF you want a lighter EMALS, with perhaps less power.

.....................

Make sure that all your planes are designed for ski jumps (clearance).

Much better to stick with conventional wisdom and be happy.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

vasu raya wrote:Much like inlet and exhaust fans in wind tunnels, something decent can be done
The inlet and exauset don't have to move with the turbine and remain in a static state. In your idea the inlet and exhaust cannot be used in an enclosed space, hence will require exhaust and inlet ducting. By necessity the ducting will have to move along with the turbine as it travels down the shaft, which means flexible ducting, which makes it complicated, which means its an impractical idea.
vasu raya wrote: not sure where the 20g figure is coming from, check this video of a C-17
Irrelevant comparison - The C17 is not a catapult launched fighter within 20-30 m. Then the catapult has to stop within 3-5 m of the end of its run after launching the aircraft. Hence the 20g deceleration force. Could be more slightly more could be slightly less, but its certainly more than the 8-9g turbine engines are designed for at the extreme end.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Shalav »

vasu raya wrote:...and EMALS can work for ski jumps?
Yes, because they can be shaped to the curvature of the ski jump, just like mag-lev train tracks are shaped for curves. This is not possible with the present steam powered launching systems.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Shalav,
There are fans already on the launcher jet engine, just the air stream flow would have to be maintained by the inlet and exhaust fans

The ref to C-17 was to say that the jet engine can be stopped in 50m distance without losing its nuts and bolts, out of the 150m or so available track and again this stopping distance is a function of engine thrust. Even for EMALS the sledge has to be stopped in 2-3 meters which takes it beyond 20g per your statement.

NRao,
guess, the ski-jump curvature matters for EMALS or we are willing to remove the ski-jump at a later time

RajitO,
Between maglev, jet turbine powered generators or locomotives our experience is more with the latter and not as expensive

if I want to divide the overall A/C expenses pie between imported EMALS and indigenous nuclear propulsion, guess what would be the right choice?
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

vasu raya - i would have thought that the space/volume required to provide the air inlet and exhaust would add so much volume to the deck where you'd put the turbine that the ship would become quite unwieldy. besides there are very serious airflow and pressure drop issues to think about for such an application
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Lalmohan,
we can pare it down to a couple of F414 engines in a side by side configuration, the mass flow req. would be the same as a naval fighter takeoff and abort run, if the inlet fan can push in so much air at sea level the space constraints would be addressed, there is no need to speed up the air like in a wind tunnel, the tunnel can be same dia along the length and straight. The bypass ratio of commercial jet engines means something? the gap between the engine and the tunnel walls to the air pressure drop? you guys are the experts.
Cosmo_R
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

Prithwiraj wrote:Veinticinco de Mayo came to Alang, Gujarat for scrapping
Alang: The Ultimate Homeport ;)
Eric Leiderman
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Eric Leiderman »

For the sake of discussion only. This idea is most probably not pheasable.

You do not require huge supply fans only exhaust fans, The deck could have numerous openings
there will be below atmospheric pressure moments on this deck, however a turbofan can be tweaked to adjust to that (as she does at higher altitudes in an aircraft application) The vessels speed will funnel in fresh air to the deck if designed so. The deck naturally will be off limits to personnel during operations because of the exhaust gases and from a safety point of view.
There can be only one catupult of this type for heavier aircraft eg AWAC/aerial refuelling applications and maybe a few heavy fighers, where as the ski jump could be used simultanously for lighter and medium aircraft to increase sortie rate. (LCA / MIG29)
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

vasu raya wrote:and EMALS can work for ski jumps?
In theory, yes. But I see two problems applying the concept to the Vikramaditya and Vikrant.

One, if you cut a long slot in the deck, you would end up weakening it. Remember, the deck is a part of the structure of the vessel. To maintain its strength, you would need to thicken it. That adds weight (in addition to what the catapult mechanism would weigh) and affects seakeeping, top speed, manoeuverability, and so on.

Two, when an aircraft takes off from a ski-jump, it imposes longitudinal as well as lateral stresses on the landing gear. These stresses are dependent to the acceleration of the aircraft. My knowledge of rigid body kinetics is a bit rusty, but I believe they would vary as the square of the velocity. So if you install a cat to increase the acceleration, you would likely need to strengthen the landing gear as well. That would involve considerable expense and time, and would result in added weight at the very least.
Viv S
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Sorry about the very late reply.
RajitO wrote:Check again. The VL stands for Vertical Landing.
Yeah. Meant STOBAR of course.
Since the IN will never give a detailed and transparent account of what made them decide to soldier on with the Vikramaditya despite the litany of problems with the basic ship design and Russian capriciousness, here's a hypothesis:

1. Like their USMC and RAF/RN counterparts, every Harrier guy in IN speaks with great affection about the aircraft, but in more candid moments will admit that the aircraft has great limitations, especially as a strike platform.

2. Once the IN aviation chaps start looking around for "capable" aircraft, the Mig29's carrier borne version - still in infancy -becomes part of a very short, shortlist. The aircraft on the shortlist eliminate 90% of the carriers which can be purchased off the shelf.
Agree with the first part.

However, there's no reason why a MiG-29K (if not a Su-33) couldn't have been operated off an vessel custom built to the IN's specifications by a foreign shipyard.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

http://www.indianexpress.com/picture-ga ... 935-1.html

there are about 10 pics.. and 'was looking for that masala dosa making machine .. but later found here from the chindu link: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/k ... 501663.ece
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:Having on paper a great fleet of nuclear powered CBGs is a wet dream,but in the Indian context highly unaffordable and perhaps impractical.Operating 3 carrier task forces will demand a huge piece of the def. budget pie.The big Q is what is the opposition that we will face in the future? Let's take a look.
For a 60,000 ton carrier nuclear propulsion may in fact turn out to be cheaper than conventional units.


The Cost-Effectiveness of Nuclear Power for Navy Surface Ships


In recent years, the Congress has shown interest in powering some of the Navy's future destroyers and amphibious warfare ships with nuclear rather than conventional (petroleum-based) fuel. In this study, CBO estimated the difference in life-cycle costs (the total costs incurred for a ship, from acquisition through operations to disposal) between powering those new surface ships with nuclear reactors and equipping them with conventional engines.

The U.S. Navy plans to build a number of new surface ships in the coming decades, according to its most recent 30-year shipbuilding plan. All of the Navy's aircraft carriers (and submarines) are powered by nuclear reactors; its other surface combatants are powered by engines that use conventional petroleum-based fuels. The Navy could save money on fuel in the future by purchasing additional nuclear-powered ships rather than conventionally powered ships. Those savings in fuel costs, however, would be offset by the additional up-front costs required for the procurement of nuclear-powered ships.

To assess the relative costs of using nuclear versus conventional propulsion for ships other than carriers and submarines, CBO developed a hypothetical future fleet, based on the Navy's shipbuilding plan, of new destroyers and amphibious warfare ships that are candidates for nuclear propulsion systems. Specifically, CBO chose for its analysis the Navy's planned new version of the DDG-51 destroyer and its replacement, the DDG(X); the LH(X) amphibious assault ship; and the LSD(X) amphibious dock landing ship. CBO then estimated the life-cycle costs for each ship in that fleet—that is, the costs over the ship's entire 40-year service life, beginning with its acquisition and progressing through the annual expenditures over 40 years for its fuel, personnel, and other operations and support and, finally, its disposal. CBO compared lifecycle costs under two alternative versions of the fleet: Each version comprised the same number of ships of each class but differed in whether the ships were powered by conventional systems that used petroleum-based fuels or by nuclear reactors.

Estimates of the relative costs of using nuclear power versus conventional fuels for ships depend in large part on the projected path of oil prices, which determine how much the Navy must pay for fuel in the future. The initial costs for building and fueling a nuclear-powered ship are greater than those for building a conventionally powered ship. However, once the Navy has acquired a nuclear ship, it incurs no further costs for fuel. If oil prices rose substantially in the future, the estimated savings in fuel costs from using nuclear power over a ship's lifetime could offset the higher initial costs to procure the ship. In recent years, oil prices have shown considerable volatility; for example, the average price of all crude oil delivered to U.S. refiners peaked at about $130 per barrel in June and July 2008, then declined substantially, and has risen significantly again, to more than $100 per barrel in March of this year.

CBO regularly projects oil prices for 10-year periods as part of the macroeconomic forecast that underlies the baseline budget projections that the agency publishes each year. In its January 2011 macroeconomic projections, CBO estimated that oil prices would average $86 per barrel in 2011 and over the next decade would grow at an average rate of about 1 percentage point per year above the rate of general inflation, reaching $95 per barrel (in 2011 dollars) by 2021. After 2021, CBO assumes, the price will continue to grow at a rate of 1 percentage point above inflation, reaching $114 per barrel (in 2011 dollars) by 2040. If oil prices followed that trajectory, total life-cycle costs for a nuclear fleet would be 19 percent higher than those for a conventional fleet, in CBO's estimation. Specifically, total life-cycle costs would be 19 percent higher for a fleet of nuclear destroyers, 4 percent higher for a fleet of nuclear LH(X) amphibious assault ships, and 33 percent higher for a fleet of nuclear LSD(X) amphibious dock landing ships.

To determine how sensitive those findings are to the trajectory of oil prices, CBO also examined a case in which oil prices start from a value of $86 per barrel in 2011 and then rise at a rate higher than the real (inflation-adjusted) growth of 1 percent in CBO's baseline trajectory. That analysis suggested that a fleet of nuclear-powered destroyers would become cost-effective if the real annual rate of growth of oil prices exceeded 3.4 percent—which implies oil prices of $223 or more per barrel (in 2011 dollars) in 2040. Similarly, a fleet of nuclear LH(X) amphibious assault ships would become cost-effective if oil prices grew at a real annual rate of 1.7 percent, implying a price of $140 per barrel of oil in 2040—about the same price that was reached in 2008 but not sustained for any length of time. A fleet of nuclear LSD(X) amphibious dock landing ships would become cost-effective at a real annual growth rate of 4.7 percent, or a price in 2040 of $323 per barrel.

The amount of energy used by new surface ships—particularly those, such as destroyers, that require large amounts of energy for purposes other than propulsion—could also be substantially higher or lower than projected. Employing an approach similar to that used to assess sensitivity to oil prices, CBO estimated that providing destroyers with nuclear reactors would become cost-effective only if energy use more than doubled for the entire fleet of destroyers.

The use of nuclear power has potential advantages besides savings on the cost of fuel. For example, the Navy would be less vulnerable to disruptions in the supply of oil: The alternative nuclear fleet would use about 5 million barrels of oil less per year, reducing the Navy's current annual consumption of petroleum-based fuels for aircraft and ships by about 15 percent. The use of nuclear power also has some potential disadvantages, including the concerns about proliferating nuclear material that would arise if the Navy had more ships with highly enriched uranium deployed overseas. CBO, however, did not attempt to quantify those other advantages and disadvantages.

Congressional Budget Office
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Oh no. Elasticity!

Btw, in the IN thread someone posted that the z vicky runs on oil. Expensive was the word associated with it.
Peregrine
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Peregrine »

NRao wrote:Oh no. Elasticity!

Btw, in the IN thread someone posted that the z vicky runs on oil. Expensive was the word associated with it.
NRao Ji :

The Vikramaditya Main Boilers consume LSHSD : LOW SULPHUR HIGH SPEED DIESEL oil

Cheers Image
NRao
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Peregrine wrote:
NRao wrote:Oh no. Elasticity!

Btw, in the IN thread someone posted that the z vicky runs on oil. Expensive was the word associated with it.
NRao Ji :

The Vikramaditya Main Boilers consume LSHSD : LOW SULPHUR HIGH SPEED DIESEL oil

Cheers
How expensive is it in comparison to other options out there?
Gagan
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Gagan »

The masala dosa machine along with the Chapati maker machine is now standard fitting in the Shivalik Class Frigates and most of the under construction IN bigger platforms.
Peregrine
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Peregrine »

Peregrine wrote:
NRao wrote:Oh no. Elasticity!

Btw, in the IN thread someone posted that the z vicky runs on oil. Expensive was the word associated with it.
Peregrine wrote:NRao Ji :

The Vikramaditya Main Boilers consume LSHSD : LOW SULPHUR HIGH SPEED DIESEL oil

Cheers
NRao wrote:How expensive is it in comparison to other options out there?
NRao Ji :

Please check on the following Websdite :

PETROLEUM BAZAAR

They do not give the price of Heavy Fuel Furnace Oil 600 CST – used in Power Plants Boilers as well as in Marine Boilers – but give the prices of 180 CST and 380 CST which are used in Marine Diesel Engines.

The above site gives the price of HSD FZD which may be equivalent to the LSHSD. Any case one can check the prices from Oil Companies on Monday.

Cheers Image
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Dilbu »

Philip
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

One never fails to wonder at this most simple of inventions,the ski-jump,which has made carrier take-offs safer and simpler.
vasu raya
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Eric Leiderman wrote:For the sake of discussion only. This idea is most probably not pheasable.

You do not require huge supply fans only exhaust fans, The deck could have numerous openings
there will be below atmospheric pressure moments on this deck, however a turbofan can be tweaked to adjust to that (as she does at higher altitudes in an aircraft application) The vessels speed will funnel in fresh air to the deck if designed so. The deck naturally will be off limits to personnel during operations because of the exhaust gases and from a safety point of view.
There can be only one catupult of this type for heavier aircraft eg AWAC/aerial refuelling applications and maybe a few heavy fighers, where as the ski jump could be used simultanously for lighter and medium aircraft to increase sortie rate. (LCA / MIG29)
while I like the bolded part, Scoops aren't such a bad thing as seen below and relative to the size of a A/C it would be very small

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... oseup.JPEG
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Mihir wrote:In theory, yes. But I see two problems applying the concept to the Vikramaditya and Vikrant.

One, if you cut a long slot in the deck, you would end up weakening it. Remember, the deck is a part of the structure of the vessel. To maintain its strength, you would need to thicken it. That adds weight (in addition to what the catapult mechanism would weigh) and affects seakeeping, top speed, manoeuverability, and so on.
Compensating all this additional tonnage would be Nuclear propulsion, however due to funds constraint if the choice is between imported EMALS and Nuke propulsion (say at their mid life upgrade) both Vikramaditya and Vikrant will be left with neither, no catapult system then no need of additional energy so no justification of expensive nuke propulsion.
Mihir wrote:Two, when an aircraft takes off from a ski-jump, it imposes longitudinal as well as lateral stresses on the landing gear. These stresses are dependent to the acceleration of the aircraft. My knowledge of rigid body kinetics is a bit rusty, but I believe they would vary as the square of the velocity. So if you install a cat to increase the acceleration, you would likely need to strengthen the landing gear as well. That would involve considerable expense and time, and would result in added weight at the very least.
The Naval LCA has been a good learning experience in the design of the landing gear suitable for ski jumps, it might be a tradeoff between what the increased weight of the landing gear would be vs. the total take off weight increment offered by the catapult system.
member_27808
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by member_27808 »

Where is she at the moment - any update or news?
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

While RN studies honed onto 60-65,000t as the optimum size for a carrier ,aircraft embarked,sortie rates,etc.,the cost of huge sueprcarriers is becoming a budgetary problem even for the USN.It now effectively can only operate between 3-4 carriers despite having more in the inventory.The advent of Chinese carrier-killer BMs too has provoked a rethink in some quarters on "spreading the risk" by having larger numbers of smaller "light" carriers,which would allow for more flexibility too.The IN's 40-45,000t med. sized carriers,which in USN parlance would be considered "light",being the size of USMC amphib flat tops,in the Indian context,is perhaps a more cost-effective solution.The design parameters of IAC-2 should be very carefully worked out.A radical design departure from the Vikram and Vikrant-2 would mean greater complexity in our carrier ops,training regimes and even aircraft in the inventory,which could pose a maintenance and support nightmare.

For over 2 decades I've been advocating the idea that any major warship above 8000t should have a flat top and operate STOVL aircraft and med/large multi-role helos.One is happy to see the idea of these mini-carriers being taken seriously by SoKo and Japan,with their multi-role flat top amphibs,which have progressively grown larger in size and now approach "light" carrier size.However,to exploit this concept to the fullest,one has to have STOVL aircraft like Harriers,JSFs or future equivs. aboard which will dispense with the need for expensive cats and EMALs.One must also note that these smaller flat tops are not meant to be replacements for med. sized carriers ,but would be complementary and confuse the enemy who would not know from which platform the attacking aircraft are from.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/03 ... riers/all/
After the Aircraft Carrier: 3 Alternatives to the Navy’s Vulnerable Flattops

By David Axe
03.20.13
Ronald Reagan tests a flight deck sprinkler system last week. Photo: Navy

The U.S. Navy’s huge, nuclear-powered aircraft carriers — capital ships that have long dominated military planning and budgeting — are slowly becoming obsolete, weighed down by escalating costs, inefficiency and vulnerability to the latest enemy weapons.

But if the supercarrier is sinking, what could rise to take its place? Smaller, cheaper flattops; modified tanker ships; and missile-hauling submarines are three cheaper, more efficient and arguably more resilient options.

Navy Capt. Jerry Hendrix, a historian, analyst and futurist, caused a stir by making the case against the Navy’s cherished supercarrier fleet. Hendrix’s recent study ”At What Cost a Carrier?” (.pdf), published by the Washington, D.C.-based Center for a New American Security, urges the Navy to begin drawing down its 10-11 Nimitz-class flattops and follow-on Ford-class vessels.

A single new carrier costs $14 billion to build plus $7 million a day to operate. “Not a good use of U.S. taxpayer money,” Hendrix asserts. Moreover, he contends that huge carriers with their five-acre flight decks and scores of warplanes are ill-suited to the American way of war, in which precision and avoiding civilian casualties are more important than overwhelming firepower. Worst, Hendrix warns, the carriers — major symbols of American military might — are increasingly big targets for China’s DF-21D ship-killing ballistic missiles.

The Navy is unlikely to decommission its giant flattops, to say the least. But should it start taking Hendrix’s advice, one or more of the following vessels could sail in their place.construction. Photo: Huntington Ingalls

Flattop Lite

Hendrix alludes to “light amphibious carriers” as possible replacements for the supercarriers, but fails to mention the specific vessel type best suited to this role. The future USS America, nearing completion at a shipyard in Mississippi, is roughly half the size of today’s Nimitz class and less than a third the cost.

Though technically a transport for Marines and their helicopters, America also supports Harrier jump jets and the still-in-development F-35B model of the stealthy Joint Strike Fighter, which like the Harrier can land vertically on small flight decks. Hendrix also called for the development of a long-range, armed drone able to launch from ships such as America. The Pentagon has already taken steps toward that goal.

In theory, the Navy could acquire and operate dozens of America-class vessels for the price of the 10 current carriers — and therein lies the smaller ships’ key advantage. According to one popular theory of naval warfare, it’s better to deploy large numbers of smaller ships than small numbers of bigger ships.

The idea is that a more numerous and spread out “distributed” fleet is harder to disable with weapons such as the DF-21D. By this way of thinking, the supercarriers represent single points of failure, whereas a larger fleet of “flattop lites” means redundancy and resilience amid combat losses.

If there’s a downside to the gas-powered America class, of which the Navy has ordered two, it’s the type’s limited speed and range compared to a nuclear-powered vessel — plus its lack of a steam catapult. It’s the absence of a catapult that prevents America from launching F/A-18 Hornets, X-47B jet-powered drones and other high-performance aircraft and instead compels it to wait for the troubled F-35B and brand-new drone types.

The new dock ship Montford Point. Photo: Navy

Everything’s a Carrier

Taking the notion of a distributed fleet even further, the Navy could potentially replace the aviation capability of today’s supercarriers with … most other ships in the fleet. Increasingly, all new warships — from the small Littoral Combat Ships to the latest Lewis and Clark-class supply vessels — come with extra-large flight decks. More and more, every ship is partially a carrier.

The Navy’s latest support vessel stretches this concept to the extreme. The Montford Point, a modified oil tanker launched late last year, is primarily meant to transport hovercraft for beach assaults. But a future version of the $500-million ship will include a roughly 500-foot-long flight deck that could support helicopters, drones and potentially even F-35Bs.

But like the America class, the Montford Points will not have catapults. And as modified tanker ships, they lack armor and defensive systems, making them potentially more vulnerable to enemy attack once located. (Although again, a distributed fleet could have greater overall resilience.) Plus, they’re slow, capable of just over half the speed of a supercarrier.

Still, as part of a widely distributed fleet of aviation-capable ships, future flight-deck-equipped Montford Points could support all but the biggest planes. And since they cost just 4 percent the price of a supercarrier, the Navy could afford lots of them.

The missile submarine USS Georgia. Photo: Navy

Underwater Arsenal

One thing supercarriers do better than other ships is deliver tons of high explosives onto distant pinpoint targets fast. The means of delivering this firepower is, of course, the flattop’s 40-plus fighter-bombers. But as Hendrix points out, the Navy possesses another method of blasting targets at long-range: precision-guided Tomahawk cruise missiles.

No vessel packs more Tomahawks than the sailing branch’s four Ohio-class guided-missile submarines. Converted from their original role carrying nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles, the so-called SSGNs each pack as many as 154 cruise missiles in vertical tubes and can fire them stealthily from underwater.

The SSGNs are getting on in years and could begin retiring in the mid-2020s. The cash-strapped Navy says it can’t afford to build new submarines with an equivalent missile load, and instead is planning on slightly increasing the much more modest Tomahawk loadout on some of the smaller Virginia-class attack subs.

But if the pricey supercarriers go away, the Navy could find itself with money to spare for a new class of missile subs or more of the enhanced Virginias with extra cruise missiles. Compared to today’s fleet balance, that would mean a radical shift in resources from the surface force to the subsurface force. But if the big flattops end up being replaced by smaller, cheaper aviation vessels — however numerous — more subs could be the best way to maintain the Navy’s overall striking power.

In any event, the Navy has options. Sinking the supercarriers, as Hendrix advises, does not mean giving up on naval aviation or on the ability to strike targets at long range. Indeed, the hundreds of billions of dollars the sailing branch would save over a period of decades with the flattops’ retirement could lead to new ships, new methods and new attitudes — and, effectively, a revolution in naval warfare
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by prashanth »

Nice article Philip sir. At $7 million per day, a supercarrier is quite expensive to maintain, even for USN. Have to wait and see how IN manages a three carrier group.
Since, amphibious assault ships carry VTOL aircrafts (helos included), what prevents one to reserve some space in the flat top to integrate anti ship missiles, CIWS etc. If these are added to the ship and it is made agile and fast, it can effectively become the equivalent of MRCA for a navy. Or is it too much to ask for?
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

I think that IN carriers from the Vikrant-2 will have VLS silos for a range of anti-air and anti-ahip/LR land attack cruise missiles.Some renderings of the ship show VLS silos fore and aft of the ship's island.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

And David Axe rears his head ...................... again. If I had to believe this guy there would be no USAF or USN. Why have anything?


Wonder why PN has any ships at all. With Indian Brahmos no one in the IOR should have any ships out there.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Leo.Davidson »

How much do the Aster15/30 and the MICA vls air defense systems cost? Why did INDIA not fit the Shtil-1 vls onboard this ship?
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

DA's arguments are valid.The issue,vulnerability of supercarrriers has frequently come up in articles in the USNI Proceedings as well.Leave aside the daily cost of operating a supercarrier,what about its escorts too?! Navies have to have balanced fleets.Putting all your eggs into a few expensive "baskets" invites trouble.AWST had a feature on the USN's carrier woes,due to the budget cuts,where it will effectively have only 3-4 CBGs operational despite having double the number in the inventory.In the IN context,simply unaffordable.

Secondly,the USN's supercarriers are designed and intended for force projection (waging war) far away from home on distant shores.Iraq Wars,Afghan War,Libyan War,Balkans War,Vietnam,etc.,etc.This demands massive firepower to be available bothf rom the sea and land based air support operating from friendly nations as in the Gulf and Afghan wars.In fact even the UK lent support with its "Harrier carriers" in Afghanistan and Iraq.India has NO "expeditionary warfare" strategy beyond defending its own landmass and island territories from attack from the sea and domination of the IOR,sanitising its chokepoints.Protecting smaller island nations like Mauritius from overthrow/invasion is part of the responsibilities.In any future spat with Pak however,air strikes from the sea at Paki naval bases such as Gwadar,etc.,and eliminating Paki LRMP assets (P-3 Orions) is on the cards.

Our "look east" policy venturing into the Indo-China Sea where Vietnam is a key potential logistic asset is meant to primarily keep watch on the PLAN's activities ,capabilities,and provide early warning of any intentions of the PLAN to break out into the IOR.Once we have the neccessary sub assets,shadowing PLAN SSBNs will be one very important task.3 med. sized carriers would be sufficient for the IN provided that we also have 3-4 amphib flat tops too which can play the role of multi-purpose "light" carriers,but need to be equipped with STOVL aircraft. The cost of operating a large nuclear powered CV with attendant acquisition and operating costs in the IN's context is a matter of debate and concern.It has to be balanced against the option of operating a few SSGNs (3-4) for the same cost,which have their own virtues.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

due to space constraints, even the nimitz class does not spare much room for SAMs beyond a token few boxes of RAM / ESSM stuck on few balconies.
the russians , true to their form have installed some 196 SAMs on the kuznetsov + guns making it the most heavily armed vessel in SAM terms (well perhaps next to the Sejong class of Soko which is on a insane level all its own).
but all these balconies sporting heavy batteries of SAMs all along the sides surely adds to the ships weight and sacrifices speed. plus you need people to operate and feed these systems.
in case of a hit, huge explosions could damage the aviation hanger and gut the ship.

I am all for a combo of AK630 + barak1 vls at a few locations along the sides, but leave medium and long range SAMs to the escorts. and definitely no need for LACM or ASM.

Kuz has a mass of vls systems on the sides http://cdn4.pix.avaxnews.com/avaxnews/d ... edium.jpeg
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Unlike other nations India faces two basic situations: An enemy that can be dealt with by all three services and a true blue water capability. The US has for the most part a blue water need. China and Russia too have a greater need for a blue water navy. So, Indian situation is rather unique in that respect.

For another whatever India faced was yesterday - the analysis was fine, investments, etc - outside of politics and such - the decision making was good. That is not my point. Moving forward what will India face is the question I would like answered. And, if not for any other reason, just the way China is behaving I feel India will have to reevaluate her responses, She will be forced to become more aggressive in her posture. I just do not see any other option for India. This border agreements that China has agreed to are only a stopgap agreement - to allow China to beef up. Let there be no misgiving that China is after AP and is hell bent on getting it.

On funding, India is not a poor country. She is a very corrupt nation, with funds hidden away from the public. Indians need to tap that source and things will work out.

(And, please leave this US funding problems out of the picture. The US will find ways to fund what they need. Ways are already under way - the US also has huge wastage and bad habits - just a matter of time. Major road bumps that will be overcome.)
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

True,the challenges will only get more complex.However,geography is our greatest asset as the Indian sub-continent juts into the IOR like a dagger.3 naval commands,each with a carrier at its disposal apart from sundry amphib. carriers and several LRMP aircraft will be a very potent force to reckon with.We can intercept and destroy any Chinese marauders entering into the IOR through the chokepoints and Chinese merchantmen and tanker traffic transiting the IOR will find that the Arctic convoys of WW2 were a picnic in comparison.

At this moment in time,the PLAN and the PLAAF are the dominant force in the Indo-China Sea.The large numbers of aircraft in particular (mostly Flankers) that the PRC can throw at an Indian CBG would test even a supercarrier's defences.Only the US's large CBGs and accompanying orchestra will be able to deal with the Chinese in the inner island chain.Even here,wargaming shows split results.However,Indian SSGNs operating in the same waters,with 40+ weapons aboard each, would be a very potent "offensive" threat. If you add AIP subs operating in the same waters with logistic support from Vietnamese ports-and we are training the Vietnamese navy to operate their new Kilo 636.3s,the quantum of capability increases significantly.One musn't forget the huge Chinese sub fleet that will near 80 boats around 2020. As NR has said,the IN will have to adopt a more offensive capability and posture when it matters,if only to deter the enemy. The contours of the balanced fleet needs to be framed so that we are not deficient in any aspect.Right now the sub fleet is the weakest and needs urgent attention.

There is one aspect which demands an answer,both diplomatic and military.Years ago when the new Fijian govt. largely led by the Indian community took office,they were deposed iin a coup by the Fijian army. At that time some in the nation bemoaned the fact that we were unable to provide support for the democratically elected govt. of Indian ancestry.We now have to redefine our support for the Indian diaspora scattered all over the world.What support we can give,both diplomatic and military in practical terms. In the past we've provided the Sri Lankan govt. of Mrs.Bandaranaike support when faced with a Marxist attempt (JVP) at overthrowing her govt. in the '70s,squashed an attempted coup in the Maldives in the '80s,and sent in the IPKF to the assistance of the Lankan govt. too in an attempt to establish peace in the island.One must also not forget "71 and the Bangladesh war of liberation.Sri Lanka,the Maldives,Mauritius,the Seychelles,and anti-piracy in the Arabian Sea will be the predominant flashpoints in the future.A forward posture in the Indo-China Sea is gradually becoming a standing requirement.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Let me put it this way. China makes a big deal when the President of India visits AP.

We should take bets (in a proper thread) on which year China will announce a ADIZ over AP.
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by kit »

Good question.. i have had some feedback from a few Filipinos ., India did send some supplies without much fanfare, but almost all the heavy lift mobilization was by the Americans ...the helicopters and ships from their battle carrier group stationed nearby supplied most of relief work., and the marines did a splendid job of moving the disabled.India because of its location could have done a lot better., but as usual south block either did not 'think' or act
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Re: INS Vikramaditya: News and Discussion

Post by kit »

NRao wrote:And David Axe rears his head ...................... again. If I had to believe this guy there would be no USAF or USN. Why have anything?


Wonder why PN has any ships at all. With Indian Brahmos no one in the IOR should have any ships out there.

heh maybe he is out to 'axe' anything in the status quo ! but no worries nobody listens :mrgreen: certainly not IN ! .. maybe someday IN gets an admiral from the submariners we will have ohios with slcm s
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