Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis

[member_28030]

The problem is Islam itself, if you want to call a spade a spade dispassionately. Political dominance with barbaric social engineering are strongly intertwined with their religious dogma. It doesn't matter how you want to solve the secondary problems if you dont address the root of the problem, when diagnosis is wrong, you cannot cure the disease.

How do you propose to solve this disease/problem then?

There are millions of young Muslim girls in Western Countries and India, too. Many of them, if not most, are very educated too. Yet you don't see them revolting against Islam.

Islam really does seem to be the strongest ideological force in human history, as the article I posted says above. It controls and/or takes active part in the construction of social, political, legal, economic, and religious behaviors and beliefs of an individual AND of a society as a whole..and it is very well constructed, in-built mechanisms that keep propagating its march on global level...That is why once its enters a place, it aint going back for sure! (Unless you kill literally all Muslims like in Spain etc, which eventually proved to be fail since today, Islam has eventually reached European heartlands in big numbers)...Look at India, 180 million Muslims and counting (that is, not counting millions of illegal Muslim Bengalis in West Bengal etc)

[member_28030]

Auz

I don't believe that people are converting en masse. The growth is through birth rates only.

Offcouse, primary growth rate of any religion is due to birth rates, and not by conversions (unless the religion is very new on the scene)

It is a demographic disaster for the Islamic world.

Or more immigrant to all parts of the world? Isn't THAT be more worrying aspect of it?

Europe is becoming increasingly anti-Islamic.
More attacks will happen in the west, there will be a backlash against them.

Not Muslims, but all immigrants will face the music of right-wing parties of West. Sikhs were the biggest victim of 9-11.

The West, eastern Europe, Russia, India, China and others are allies (yet to be formalised) against islam, because islam is against ALL.

I don't think so. On state level, Europeans, and Chinese need Islamic World's massive resources. Eastern Europe on its own can't do anything. Turkey alone will over-run entire Eastern Europe within days....but Russians loved Eastern Europe..and Russians are hard-core Christians, anti-Muslim people. Eastern Europe along with Russia is what you wanted to say probably.

'The West' loves Arabs more than Chinese. You love your servants with free oil more than your competent competitors

As I always say to people and to moslems.

"THERE IS NOT ONE MOSLEM NATION ON EARTH THAT IS SELF SUFFIECIENT IN FOOD PRODUCTION AND CAPABLE OF CONTROLLING AND DOMINATING THEIR OWN AIRSPACE!"

Numbers mean nothing if you can't feed them.

Lol, loaded but rhetorical.

Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Algeria, Morocco, Kazakhstan, Tunisia etc etc are pretty stable/decent countries or economies. Then there are desert kingdoms which are super resourceful but can't produce enough agriculture due to the very nature of their geography.

Pakistan is pretty capable of controlling and dominating their own airspace...unless they go against the mightiest USAF. Against USAF, NO country can control and dominate its airspace. Not.even.one. !!!

Talking of food production, OIC is taking steps to increase food production in Islamic World, I heard. lol

OIC is a brilliant organization. They made world record after surpassing the U.N in being the most useless organization to have ever existed.

[member_22872]

How do you propose to solve this disease/problem then?

I am not sure. I don't think it is possible in a short duration. Nor it is going to be pleasant. Currently, the problem of Islamism is not defined. It is not defined because governments don't think it is a problem. Secularism doesn't want to define it as a problem. When the problem itself isn't defined, we can debate a solution, but would be hypothetical at best for now. Right now nations are either turning a blind eye or don't think Islamism is a problem. Until they see it as a problem, problem cannot be solved. The problem needs to be addressed in the form of government policies.

I think many have already proposed many solutions, may be you should read RajeshA ji's posts in other threads.

[member_28030]

How do you propose to solve this disease/problem then?

I am not sure. I don't think it is possible in a short duration. Nor it is going to be pleasant. Currently, the problem of Islamism is not defined. It is not defined because governments don't think it is a problem. Secularism doesn't want to define it as a problem. When the problem itself isn't defined, we can debate a solution, but would be hypothetical at best for now. Right now nations are either turning a blind eye or don't think Islamism is a problem. Until they see it as a problem, problem cannot be solved. The problem needs to be addressed in the form of government policies.

I think many have already proposed many solutions, may be you should read RajeshA ji's posts in other threads.

Well, how to separate Islam and Islamism?

You see the problem here? The very nature of Islam is so comprehensive and complicated that it is impossible to even think to stop it, specially in today's world.

NO ONE has a clear definition of 'Islamism' and 'Islam' can't be fought with because thats just 'nazi stuff' ..What options are left?

Also, can you give me some idea where I could find those posts? I mean, like 3,4 pages back or what? Just a general idea..thanks

[JE Menon]

Auz,

Can you please give the link of the Israeli forum in which the text you pasted was originally posted in?

[johneeG]

It is important to make proper analysis. If one starts with wrong analysis, then one is likely to propose wrong solutions.

I think it is wrong analysis to imagine that gals are the biggest strength of malsI. The correct analysis is that the biggest strength of malsI is its ability to suppress criticism. malsI is very weak in its structure and can be critiqued from so many angles. I think most of the apologists of malsI realize this in their hearts of hearts, so they make every effort to suppress the criticism of malsI by threat of violence. No criticism is allowed. Even the mildest satire evokes angry and violent reactions. It is a scare tactic. It is an attempt to stop people from probing further and finding out that the whole thing is so weak and silly.

For a long time, X-ism did the same. Eventually, the system crumbled and people keep abandoning the system. Once the free and fair debates start taking place, it separates the grain from the chaff...it separates the milk from water.

Therefore, the greatest threat to malsI or even X-ism is free and fair debate and sharing of knowledge. So, they try to stifle the debates and knowledge sharing. They try to keep the people ignorant and poor, so that no questions are asked.

Now, malsI & X-ism criticize each other, but they do so in a very limited manner because they both share many common values. One cannot criticize the other without invalidating oneself. So, they keep their criticisms very limited in scope.

In X-ism and malsI societies, atheists are, perhaps, best placed to criticize malsI or X-ism. But, they suffer from a peculiar problem. Even though these atheists have rejected these ideologies, they are unable to critique them from a philosophical standpoint. They are unable to point out the flaws of the system. So, they resort to using science as the barometer. They try to use science to refute malsI or X-ism. It works to an extent. But, it does not touch the core.

If one goes back in history, one of the things that helped breakdown the vice grip of church in X-ism society is the ideas coming from east(particularly, Hindhuism, Buddhism and Confucian). Until the west came in contact with these eastern religions, the church kept the west in dark ages. And west was unable to break away from it. Only when the the west came in contact with the eastern religions and started using these 'new' ideas to critique X-ism, church's power broke down. Of course, there were other factors also. But, this is one very important factor that is generally not given enough attention.

People, generally, give importance to growth of science in breaking the grip of church and ushering europe out of dark ages. But, they fail to give importance to the role played by the eastern religions and ideas.

The importance of eastern religions is that they are fundamentally different from malsI & X-ism. They question the very basic assumptions of malsI and X-ism. Eastern religions are also rich in philosophy unlike malsI and X-ism.

Both malsI and X-ism, the first thing that they do when they come to power in a region is to block the dissemination of knowledge. The burning down of libraries or killing of scholars...etc. The same thing is done in modern world also in a different manner.

Arts(like poems, songs, movies, dramas, stories, paintings, dances,...etc) provide a very powerful way to package criticisms. Thats why malsI tries very hard to control them. Remember the story that Mo ordered the killing of a woman poet who criticized malsI?

So, in conclusion, the greatest threat to malsI & X-ism criticism. They thrive under ignorance, poverty and crisis.

Solution is to allow criticisms. To not let the malsI or X-ism deter people from criticizing by the threat of violence. Free and fair debates along with easy dissemination of knowledge. And to use ideas from eastern religions to criticize the malsI or X-ism because they question the very basics and provide an alternate system.

[JE Menon]

In general, members are advised to be honest as to information sources, and to not seek to deceive board participants. It may work briefly, but when the deception is discovered, credibility is shot. And future prospects are limited. And for what? A handful of responses? Not worth it, both the deception and its discovery will be forgotten in a few days - and the question itself rendered completely irrelevant. But it all remains on record. Might as well be clear from the outset.


Teeta01
Fedex

[member_28030]

In general, members are advised to be honest as to information sources, and to not seek to deceive board participants. It may work briefly, but when the deception is discovered, credibility is shot. And future prospects are limited. And for what? A handful of responses? Not worth it, both the deception and its discovery will be forgotten in a few days - and the question itself rendered completely irrelevant. But it all remains on record. Might as well be clear from the outset.


Teeta01
Fedex

Auz,

Can you please give the link of the Israeli forum in which the text you pasted was originally posted in?

Where is the deceiving part here?

I got it from a forum, and I posted it here...and even wrote that I got it from another forum.

The forum is http://israelmilitary.net/

[JE Menon]

Who said the deceiving part was addressed to you? I clearly stated "in general" - a comment to all members.

I know the general address of the Israeli Military forums. Where is that particular article? Please give the page link.

[Haresh]

SBajwa,

The quote you have attributed to me at Posted: 01 Dec 2013 09:44 pm is not by me, please change it.
The quote is from Auz

[member_28030]

I think it is wrong analysis to imagine that gals are the biggest strength of malsI. The correct analysis is that the biggest strength of malsI is its ability to suppress criticism. malsI is very weak in its structure and can be critiqued from so many angles. I think most of the apologists of malsI realize this in their hearts of hearts, so they make every effort to suppress the criticism of malsI by threat of violence. No criticism is allowed. Even the mildest satire evokes angry and violent reactions. It is a scare tactic. It is an attempt to stop people from probing further and finding out that the whole thing is so weak and silly.

How would you define criticism? I mean, poking fun is 'criticism'? Calling Muhammad names and such? That will backfire, no?

The problem I see with many of the people is that they confuse Islam and Christianity. Christianity is a joke infront of a giant against Islam. Christianity is a 'creedal' religion and not a 'legalistic' religion like Islam. Islam, by its very nature, tries to be "reasonable" since it legalizes many things and forbids others..and it has to come up with some "reason" for its command (no matter how lame, dumb those reasons are). The very fact that Islam "tries" to be "reasonable" to its follow makes it a way harder nut to crack.

Also, unlike Christianity, Islam's foundations are really strong. Luckily for Islamic Ideological Force, it saw the 'golden age' very early in its career. During Golden age, massive scholars criticized Islam to the core, scholarly debates happened on even the smallest of issues...Theology of Islam evolved in the light of Greek reason and logic. Ghazali and Averroes produced remarkable works in theology, philosophy, and Islam and dissected the Islamic faith from different angles. Qur'anic textual criticism arose in 9th century..while biblical textual criticism wasn't possible until 18th century onwards.

This historical context makes Islam inherently way more "resistant" to secular onslaught because Islam has already seen all of it. It is a young, energetic yet experienced, and well-grilled force that has triumphed every.single.opposing.force it has ever faced!! You can see it in our age too...Islam has been THE single most successful religion in facing the brutal onslaught of secularism, modernity, and scientific approach. While Christianity just fell and got humiliated in the face of this onslaught, Islam didn't only stood its ground but instead benefited from secular/modern onslaught and expanded it even further. In the West, Muslims are way, way more 'practicing' than general population. Turkey is the most secular country in the world..or has been after 1923..heck, they even banned Arabic and hanged those who objected or tried to bring Arabic back..on the face of such odds, look what happened. Islam didn't only 'survive' in Turkey, but it THRIVED in Turkey. Today, Islamists are ruling Turkey..bans of headscarves are gone..Hijab is back in universities, colleges, streets etc..and even parliament now.

And Turkey is seen as an example for Islamic education all across the Muslim World...

So you see, it isn't easy.

Therefore, the greatest threat to malsI or even X-ism is free and fair debate and sharing of knowledge. So, they try to stifle the debates and knowledge sharing. They try to keep the people ignorant and poor, so that no questions are asked.

All of this is openly present in the West..but you don't see Muslims leaving Islam en masse. If anything, Islam is stronger in the West than in many other parts of the world.

In X-ism and malsI societies, atheists are, perhaps, best placed to criticize malsI or X-ism. But, they suffer from a peculiar problem. Even though these atheists have rejected these ideologies, they are unable to critique them from a philosophical standpoint. They are unable to point out the flaws of the system. So, they resort to using science as the barometer. They try to use science to refute malsI or X-ism. It works to an extent. But, it does not touch the core.

Agree! Criticism of Islam has to be far, far more sophisticated than the normal criticism that Atheists are geared to throw at Christianity and make it sound like a retarded faith. I know one Atheist youtuber who does really good videos on Islam and criticizes it very effectively. While Richard Dawkins on the other hand looks like a retarded when he tries to make fun of 'Muslims' and 'Islams' on twitter.

If one goes back in history, one of the things that helped breakdown the vice grip of church in X-ism society is the ideas coming from east(particularly, Hindhuism, Buddhism and Confucian). Until the west came in contact with these eastern religions, the church kept the west in dark ages. And west was unable to break away from it. Only when the the west came in contact with the eastern religions and started using these 'new' ideas to critique X-ism, church's power broke down. Of course, there were other factors also. But, this is one very important factor that is generally not given enough attention.


People, generally, give importance to growth of science in breaking the grip of church and ushering europe out of dark ages. But, they fail to give importance to the role played by the eastern religions and ideas.

The importance of eastern religions is that they are fundamentally different from malsI & X-ism. They question the very basic assumptions of malsI and X-ism. Eastern religions are also rich in philosophy unlike malsI and X-ism.

Oh wow! very interesting. I didn't know that. Can you provide some material/links/evidence for your claim(s)? I am interested to read.



Lastly, why do you write Islam as 'Malsi' ?

[member_22872]

Personally I dont see a difference between Islam and Islamism, the latter springs from the former, without the root, there wouldn't be the former. Any other perspective that sees them as two separate issues is only beating around the bush and a fear to bell the cat. Behind a problem, there has to be a cause, without attacking the cause, trying to solve the problem is no solution. The cause could be a teaching, a wrong perspective or all of them.

Not that there are no solutions, you can try combing this below thread, many have analyzed well:

The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

The solutions discussed are within Indian context, some could be extrapolated.

Every religion can be criticized, so why should Islam hide behind the cloak of "islam under threat" when ever some cartoon of Mohammad shows up in a news paper? It is this shielding that has prevented islam from being shown for what it is and what it is not. Unless this happens, finding solution doesnt even begin.

[johneeG]

Auz,
so, you
dislike Izrael?
support palestine?
think malsI is fantastic?

You know how that sounds?

[member_28030]

Auz,
so, you
dislike Izrael?

No, I dislike the continuation of old European colonial order.

support palestine?

Yes, I support the colonized.

Heck! many of my Jewish mates here agree with my position. I wonder why it is so hard for indians to grab the fact that we, the "civilized" people, are courageous enough to stand upto the wrong doings of our own governments..We don't have to kiss arses of white masters like many others do.

Call spade a spade..

think malsI is fantastic?

What does that even suppose to mean..

You know how that sounds?

No.

[member_28030]

Personally I dont see a difference between Islam and Islamism,the latter springs from the former, without the root, there wouldn't be the former. Any other perspective that sees them as two separate issues is only beating around the bush and a fear to bell the cat. Behind a problem, there has to be a cause, without attacking the cause, trying to solve the problem is no solution. The cause could be a teaching, a wrong perspective or all of them.

Very interesting points..and that was what I was getting at.

You can't just 'ban' Islam in today's world, can you?

Heck! forget about Islam/Islamism thing...you can't even ban Hijabs now or the whole hell would break lose!

[Dipanker]

Auz,
so, you
dislike Izrael?
support palestine?
think malsI is fantastic?

You know how that sounds?

Let me guess, like a Islamists ?

[Haresh]

There are millions of young Muslim girls in Western Countries and India, too. Many of them, if not most, are very educated too. Yet you don't see them revolting against Islam.

moslems in the west have the highest rate of "honour" murdering. Something like 90 %

Do you really think that moslem females who know of a friend/relation or read about it are not affected emotionally by this?

With regards to revolting against islam, it does not have to be an open public rejection, it can be kept secret.

In the office where I work, we have moslem females. They wear tight revealing clothes, makeup, hair styled etc. They look at guys and guys look at them.
They may put a scarf on when they leave/return home, because of family pressure. But I don't think they would give up their life style in the west to be sharia compliant.

Why is it that when I meet a young attractive moslem girl, the first questions she asks are: "are you married" and "are you moslem" They are searching for a better option than their own cousins.

All that is needed is for infidel men to pointblank refuse to convert.
Moslem women are quite easily de-islamised, I have seen this.

The moslems in the west/infidel lands are having their cake and eating it.
They can wear their scarves/veils and tell us how fantastic islam is. The fact is they are protected by secular law and traditions.
Their entire exisitance is schizophrenic.

I wonder what the rate of abortion and contraceptive use is among single moslem women?
I wonder how they feel about the sharia compliancy of abortion and contraception?

You are also very wrong to suggest "Many of them, if not most, are very educated too" The facts do not back this up. They have generally the lowest level of education.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/educa ... 19082.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens ... bands.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/ ... on-britain

and work in mainly low paid jobs. This is a source of constant left wing handwringing concern. As if it is the fault of non moslems that moslems cannot achieve success.

Your statement is flawed.

I will reply to your other comments seperatley.

[Dipanker]

Lastly, why do you write Islam as 'Malsi' ?

There was this article published in Dawn, a Pakistani newspaper, by a Pakistani writer, who termed Malsi ( Islam ) as the main cause of most of problems faced by Pakistan. He call Malsi as the elephant in the room no Pakistani wants to talk about. Genesis of the word Malsi on BRF goes back to that article.

Now ask your self what is common to the problems faced by the Islamic world? The answer would be?

[member_22872]

Heck! forget about Islam/Islamism thing...you can't even ban Hijabs now or the whole hell would break lose!

Angola did ban Islam recently. I don't know the merits of it. Banning Islam is more like building a wall to protect yourself, it can work for so long, it is temporary fix, not a permanent one. Permanent one has to be multi pronged, mainly it has to attack the very foundation of Islam. For that to happen non-Muslims must understand Islam without any hang ups and without any guilt that they are looking Islam down. It is what it is. You cannot bring in a rudimentary tribal laws that which were frozen in time and force them or others and kill them in the name of Allah because they don't want to follow you. This cannot happen when governments show it in a different hue so to please certain sections just to look "good".

When Islam is discussed openly, when it is compared and contrasted against other faiths and religions, when it is shown to would be adherents the loop holes and false claims of Islam, when it is shown the Islam suffers from a destructive genetic disease that needs a threshold of number of followers to become dominant and get expressed and spread, then I think it will fall apart by it self.
But this unraveling of Islam takes time, if governments fool it's people by shielding Islam in its propagandist claims, then this unraveling might take very long or might not happen till it is too late. Governments shouldn't shy away from cracking whip when they have to. They dance as long as there is music. Practicing religion doesn't mean it becomes public nuisance and against the rule of the land. Religion is private, it is between God and oneself, not something you shove it up people's arses when they resist to swallow.

[Haresh]

[/quote]quote="Auz"]Offcouse, primary growth rate of any religion is due to birth rates, and not by conversions (unless the religion is very new on the scene)[/quote]
The point behind my comment was this, they are born moslem, they don't choose to be moslem. This prooves that when moslems say that people are converting en masse, they are lying.

Birth rates mean nothing with economic development. They still need to be fed.

Or more immigrant to all parts of the world? Isn't THAT be more worrying aspect of it?

This will cease to be a problem when the infidel world comes to the realisation that islam and civilisation are not compatible. Politics is slowly moving to the Right.
There will come a time when they will simply be denied entry.If it takes the armed forces to enforce this, then it will happen. I refer you to Bulgaria where barbed wire fencing is being constructed to keep moslem refugees from syria from entering via islamic turkey.

If the navy was required to protect the european Mediteranean then it would happen.

Not Muslims, but all immigrants will face the music of right-wing parties of West. Sikhs were the biggest victim of 9-11.

I and others spend quite alot of time on various internet forums explaining the difference. People are aware of the difference. Yes Sikhs were the victims of a backlash after 9/11 but that was more than 10 years ago. Westerners are more aware now.

I don't think so. On state level, Europeans, and Chinese need Islamic World's massive resources

So what?? they take the resources with or without consent from the islamic world. Whoever is in power in the islamic world, they will still have to sell resources.
What are they going to sell for an income, the koran??

Auz

I don't believe that people are converting en masse. The growth is through birth rates only.

Offcouse, primary growth rate of any religion is due to birth rates, and not by conversions (unless the religion is very new on the scene)

It is a demographic disaster for the Islamic world.

Or more immigrant to all parts of the world? Isn't THAT be more worrying aspect of it?

Europe is becoming increasingly anti-Islamic.
More attacks will happen in the west, there will be a backlash against them.

Not Muslims, but all immigrants will face the music of right-wing parties of West. Sikhs were the biggest victim of 9-11.

Eastern Europe on its own can't do anything. Turkey alone will over-run entire Eastern Europe within days....but Russians loved Eastern Europe..and Russians are hard-core Christians, anti-Muslim people.

Are you sure of this? It was the Serbs who saved europe from the jihadists in the Yugoslav civil war. It was a shame they were fighting the Croat's as well.

Your comment about turkey over-running eastern europe within days is nonsense, rubbish. It is not militarilly or economically possible. Poland is very capable militarily/economically.
The turkish military does not have any real Expeditionary warfare capability. You are being childish

Eastern Europe along with Russia is what you wanted to say probably.

Thanks Auz, I know what I wanted to say, that's why I typed it !!

quote="Auz"]Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Algeria, Morocco, Kazakhstan, Tunisia etc etc are pretty stable/decent countries or economies. Then there are desert kingdoms which are super resourceful but can't produce enough agriculture due to the very nature of their geography.

You must be seriously deluded if you think that any of those countries are "stable/decent countries or economies"

Only Indonesia and Kazakhstan are any of those because they are relativley secular and non wahabbi. That may change in the future.

What does geography have to do with agriculture? The Israeli's have mastered desert agriculture, why can't the arabs? Do you think it could be because they are retarded by islam and all the constraints it places on human development??

Pakistan is pretty capable of controlling and dominating their own airspace...unless they go against the mightiest USAF. Against USAF, NO country can control and dominate its airspace. Not.even.one. !!!

Are they?? The fact is if push came to shove India, Russia "the West" could dominate Pak airspace. Please do some research.
I think the Russians would give the Americans a run for their money.
The point I was making was that the islamic world could be starved into submission in an all out civilisation fight to the finish. Their ports would be destoyed, their airspace dominated, the koran has no nutitional value.

Talking of food production, OIC is taking steps to increase food production in Islamic World, I heard. lol

Yes they are leasing land in africa. Which leaves them vulnerable.

With all due respect your arguments are childish.

[Haresh]

Apologies for the mixed up and confused formatting in my above post. I don't know how it happened and I do not have the patience to correct it.

[SBajwa]

by Venug
Angola did ban Islam recently. I don't know the merits of it. Banning Islam is more like building a wall to protect yourself, it can work for so long, it is temporary fix, not a permanent one.

The permanent solutions could be
1. Uniform Civil Code including inheritance, marriage, divorce and all types of crime.
2. Banning of the conversion (no more conversion allowed).
3. No more patronage of the "religions matters" i.e. "Haj Subsidy".
and so forth! Add to list.

[member_22872]

X-Posting from B'desh thread:

Much of the the following is what we already know, but still yet another public domain pointer to what has been going on in Bangladesh...

Bangladesh: Genocide Now, Taliban Soon

According to Dr. Sachi Dastidar, professor of politics at the State University of New York at Old Westbury, Long Island, forty-nine million Hindus are missing from the Bangladesh census over the period of 1947 to 2001. At the time of the partition of India in 1947, Hindus comprised thirty-one percent of the population of Bangladesh. The population of Hindus in Bangladesh is now down to a mere nine percent. The numbers are shrinking very fast due to coerced conversions; the kidnapping of girls and women, as well as rapes followed by murder; forced flight -- and genocidal massacres.

In the near future, all the non-Muslims may be "ethnically cleansed" from Bangladesh.

Till now we only talked about 2-front war, now it could soon become 3-front war...seems we soon have to solve a N-Front war problem similar to N-Body problem, only that N-Front war problem will deal with repulsive(to India) forces tearing India apart.

[sanjaykumar]

The permanent solutions could be
1. Uniform Civil Code including inheritance, marriage, divorce and all types of crime.
2. Banning of the conversion (no more conversion allowed).
3. No more patronage of the "religions matters" i.e. "Haj Subsidy".
and so forth! Add to list.


Or perhaps recognition and formalisation that Hindu/Sikhs/Buddhists etc are first citizens of India and the rest should be legally obligated to be treated as these citizens are treated in Pakistan, Saudia etc

[member_22872]

Relative grading as 1st class and 2nd class citizens will lead to fissures in the society, we already have reservations issue, lot of stresses are built into the system. In fact even Indian Muslims too were Hindus/Buddhists at one point. But I do agree to all the 3 points.

May be we should follow on the lines of what Buddha proposed but this time it is for Indian civilization as an organism:

Search for the good in you, and preserve the good.
Search for the bad in you, eliminate the bad.
Inculcate the good in you, what is absent.

This should translate into what is good and what is bad for the Indian civilization, which shouldn't be hard knowing our history and consequences of Islam.

If applied at microscopic level(individual level), at group(Dharmic faiths, internal cleansing, I don't mean killing, I mean home keeping, getting rid of practices that are not good for Indian civilization to prevail) and at the macroscopic level(as a nation), this might work.

Like gifting a bone to a dog for good behaviour, encourage practices that lead to greater good, that will make people shun Islam, no punishment if not done, but no benefits either if they stick with Islam. Prosperity and happiness could open the closed eyes. People convert for a reason, identify the reasons, identify what forced them to convert and fix those loop holes. We should prevent conversions, encourage reverse Inculturation, build your your own dharmic system of choice. First of all, when a system is healthy, why would anyone leave it?, if they still do, let them, there is nothing one can do.

[SBajwa]

by Venug
May be we should follow on the lines of what Buddha proposed but this time it is for Indian civilization as an organism:

Search for the good in you, and preserve the good.
Search for the bad in you, eliminate the bad.
Inculcate the good in you, what is absent.

That's the fundamental difference between Dharmic vs non-Dharmic faiths. Dharmics believe in Soul and afterlife, non-Dharmic believes in Kabila/group and heaven after life. We need to go back to our time tested ways which is Satyamev Jayate. Speak Truth!

[member_22872]

SBajwa ji, absolutely, even the solution should be dharmic/Indian. That of looking inward at our selves, into the civilizational practices that went berserk overtime. Revive it back to life. Even civilization has karma no? if civilization is suffering from a disease, identify it, cleanse it, take steps that wont happen again. Let's not wait for incarnation of Maha Vishnu, sometimes he can come in the form of whole bunch of Indians.

[krisna]

small correction- Angola has not banned islam at least not yet offcially - it is a predominanatly christian country of about 18 m people. muslims are about 90000. There are some laws ? which state that you need some permission to open schoools mosques etc etc. also you need to be in good numbers. Overall the predominat christian country views islam highly negatively. citizens support it.
In all making it diffcult to practice islam openly.

[Prem]

X-Posting from B'desh thread:

Much of the the following is what we already know, but still yet another public domain pointer to what has been going on in Bangladesh...Bangladesh: Genocide Now, Taliban Soon
Till now we only talked about 2-front war, now it could soon become 3-front war...seems we soon have to solve a N-Front war problem similar to N-Body problem, only that N-Front war problem will deal with repulsive(to India) forces tearing India apart.

Did You forget the Indian inernal dynamics under seculars? Any sign of Indian weakness at border will ignite internal Islamist front to push for maximum gain. Bengladeshi muslims are just paying back their debt and thanking us for their liberation by doing the genocide of Hindus and Budhists.

[member_22872]

krisna garu, thanks for the correction. Didn't know that.

jhujar ji, of course, when the problem shifts from 2-Fronts to N-Fronts, that means "Breaking India" will be in progress, we can wash our hands off. Termites always eat from within. It would be too late before we discover the problem.

[member_28030]

The point behind my comment was this, they are born moslem, they don't choose to be moslem. This prooves that when moslems say that people are converting en masse, they are lying.

Ok, got it.

Birth rates mean nothing with economic development. They still need to be fed.

Exactly. And that is the problem. Ill fed peoples will come to the West...

Read the book "Puritanical Islam: The Geo-expansion of the Muslim World"

The author, an expert in this field, explains how and why Islamic Immigration will continue outwards of Islamic Lands in the future..

This will cease to be a problem when the infidel world comes to the realisation that islam and civilisation are not compatible. Politics is slowly moving to the Right.

Where? In Eastern Europe? May be.

In the United States? Heck no.

Remember, U.S is the boss of the Western World, and by that token, of the world...Liberals of U.S won't allow "systematic" oppression of Muslims in Western World..

There will come a time when they will simply be denied entry.If it takes the armed forces to enforce this, then it will happen.

There are about 45 million+ Muslims in 'West' (Russia included) already! and the number is all set to reach a freaking 60 billion+ by 2030!!!! "When" exactly this time of yours will come?

Even if we block new entries, what about tens and tens of millions of Muslims living all over Western heartlands already?!

I refer you to Bulgaria where barbed wire fencing is being constructed to keep moslem refugees from syria from entering via islamic turkey.

Source?

I and others spend quite alot of time on various internet forums explaining the difference. People are aware of the difference. Yes Sikhs were the victims of a backlash after 9/11 but that was more than 10 years ago. Westerners are more aware now.

Then you don't know much about 'westerners', I presume. When push comes to shove, do you ACTUALLY believe that people will take time to separate a 'Sikh' turban dude with an 'Arab' turban dude?

I don't think so. On state level, Europeans, and Chinese need Islamic World's massive resources

So what?? they take the resources with or without consent from the islamic world. Whoever is in power in the islamic world, they will still have to sell resources.
What are they going to sell for an income, the koran??

Easier said than done.

Are you sure of this? It was the Serbs who saved europe from the jihadists in the Yugoslav civil war. It was a shame they were fighting the Croat's as well.

Your comment about turkey over-running eastern europe within days is nonsense, rubbish. It is not militarilly or economically possible. Poland is very capable militarily/economically.
The turkish military does not have any real Expeditionary warfare capability. You are being childish

No, you are being childish with all these cartoons

E.Europe without Russia or Western Europe is nothing.

Name just three Eastern European countries that can stand upto the Turks?

Turks are a historical greats...leader of humanity at one time..superpower of the planet with dominating millions of sq. km in Europe, Africa, Asia/Middle-East etc for centuries!

You don't have to wage 'war' to dominate a region smaller than yours. Economy, culture, trade, military, and global reach/connections/influence play a big part. And in all of this, Turkey is ranked far above than any other E.European nation (Again, unless E.Europeans align with Russia or West)...

You must be seriously deluded if you think that any of those countries are "stable/decent countries or economies"

Ok, lets take Turkey as an example..

Turkey: nominal per capita income $10,000+

A near trillion dollar economy for 75 million people..

Largest exporter of t.vs to Europe.

One of the largest constructors on planet..

Increasing wealth..just opened underground railway connecting Istanbul across the sea...

One of the most famous tourist destination of the world..

Shipping industry bigger than even that of Brits..

And so on

Pretty "decent" in my opinion...Farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ahead than your country India actually. I fail to understand how you look down upon Turkey and yet call yourself indian nationalist believing your country to be really great etc.

Only Indonesia and Kazakhstan are any of those because they are relativley secular and non wahabbi. That may change in the future.

So what? Indonesia is a typical Muslim country just like Iran is a Muslim country. Secular? Yeah, Indonesians have gay-marriage rights for gay couples, and people can insult Islam/Qur'an anytime they want like people do to Christianity in U.S and...oh wait. Nevermind.

What does geography have to do with agriculture?

And you were telling me that I was being childish? Oh the irony! LOL!

You can't grow rice is Arabian Desert, can you?

[img]http://blog.sevenponds.com/wp-content/u ... sert-1.jpg[/img

The Israeli's have mastered desert agriculture, why can't the arabs?

lol, because Arabs don't have suitable geography for mass-scale agriculture. Majority of their land is desert.

Do you think it could be because they are retarded by islam and all the constraints it places on human development??

No, I think it has more to do with geography. Many Muslim countries are one of the largest producers of agricultural products, milk, meat, nuts, fruits etc.

It depends on the geography more.

Arab World is the largest producer of dates in the world..and make sense too, historically, Arab lands and oasis were good in dates etc.

Pakistan is pretty capable of controlling and dominating their own airspace...unless they go against the mightiest USAF. Against USAF, NO country can control and dominate its airspace. Not.even.one. !!!

Are they??

Yes. I see Pakistani Air Force completely dominating its air space and no other entity can fly inside Pakistan.. (Again, other than intrusions of the USAF drones which Pakis allow themselves)..

The fact is if push came to shove India, Russia "the West" could dominate Pak airspace.

No, india can't "dominate" Pak's airspace. India might in case of war..i.e if india wins it...but that isn't sure. No one knows how the war will turn out with India and Pak fighting..both are pretty well matched up (in ratio terms, in numbers india is far ahead)...but indian air force doesn't have any "decisive" edge on Pak AF. For example, U.S' B-2 bombers and F-22s are "decisive" edge on any air force...I don't see any such weapons in Indian AF.

Also, "West" means U.S pretty much. Russians? On paper? probably yes. In reality? nahhh....they don't have the power projection capabilities like we do.

I think the Russians would give the Americans a run for their money.

lol...yeah right.

We are far superior to Russians. Far superior. Mind it.

The point I was making was that the islamic world could be starved into submission in an all out civilisation fight to the finish. Their ports would be destoyed, their airspace dominated, the koran has no nutitional value.

By who?

If U.S destroys Dubai port, China/Japan will go BEZERK! It is a very critical port for trade with West...Also, the whole world economy would burst into items if you "starve" and "wage war" at 25% of total humanity spreading all over the world. Also,

West has 45 million of its own citizens as 'Muslims' ...30 million for China..180 million for india...Unless all of these countries/entities want to commit suicide... I don't see any such hypothetical war..

Talking of food production, OIC is taking steps to increase food production in Islamic World, I heard. lol

Yes they are leasing land in africa. Which leaves them vulnerable.

Thats Saudi Arabia.

OIC has made a commission to over-look Agricultural production and its trade and expansion in Muslim World..

With all due respect your arguments are childish.

With all due respect, you are very childish.

[Agnimitra]

Turks are a historical greats...leader of humanity at one time..superpower of the planet with dominating millions of sq. km in Europe, Africa, Asia/Middle-East etc for centuries!

My dear Auz abi, are you one of those Ghazi University products excited about Turkish neo-Islamism? Or are you just one of their Pakistani sidekicks?

Islam arose as a cult at a time of decline of multiple civilizations across Eurasia, that coincided with an ecological trough as far as the climatic changes were concerned. That is why, with drought, disease and pestilence, there was a lot of talk of "end of times" in some regions, including Arabia. During such times, the most tribal, primitive societies proved to "thrive" due to better memes for violence and hardiness. Arabs, Mongols, and yes - Turks. These tribal creatures lived a parasitic existence on older civilizations such as Persia, India, Greece/Eastern Rome, Egypt, etc. Like highwaymen, they dominated the trade routes between the Eastern and West Eurasian and N. African civilizations. On balance, they destroyed many times more than what they preserved or pieced back together again as "inventions". They presided over the Dark Ages, not just for Europe but also for India. Even the Iranian Muslim poet Ferdowsi called the Muslims "the Armies of Darkness." Thus, "thriving" by sheer violent parasitic existence over other "enslaved" civilizations is hardly something to crow about. At best, it can be said that at an inflection point during human history, some of the last remaining barbaric and primitive races from the hot and cold deserts of Arabia and Central Asia were brought into the light of civilization via the brutal conquering medium of Islam. Islam was the most sleek weaponization of human religious tendencies towards brutal colonization. Later, the Europeans learned their colonial tactics and absorbed the Islamist memes. so if you claim you are against colonialism, you might want to re-think your admiration for Islam. (Correction - Islamic memes are not unique nor the most sleek programming for the reptilian charge. If certain Vedic memes are revived from their deep dormancy, Islam might find itself staring at Qiyamat Itself).

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but I have seen many Islamists such as you who get a kick out of creating some khujli and despondency in "unbelievers" with the kind of propaganda you have been posting here.

[harbans]

I thought this thread was about Islamism/ Islamophobia news abroad and some associated analysis atmost.

[Rajagopal]

Dear Auz(or is it Aurangzeb?),

You started your first “Khujlee” post a month ago and ended up revealing your true Islamist colors by your 18th post. See? you can never hold down a true Islamist for long.
You are not the first Islamist here on BR to use “Taqiyya” techniques to push the Islamist agendas.
I am surprised that you are allowed to “run around free” on this forum.

[sanjaykumar]

Perhaps this will help clarify matters:

Indian MiG 25s flew missions over Lahore in the late 90s, Indian helicopters have destroyed infrastructure along the LOC (but I forget, that is not Pakistan). The Atlantique Breguet was shot down over Pakistan territory. Of course Osama did not walk out to the Arabian Sea to drown himself.

So all and sundry do in fact violate Pakistan's airspace.

It is ironic that Muslim migrants are dependent upon the goodwill of liberals in the west and the US in particular to ensconce their alien ways in these haram societies.


Yes there are millions of Muslims in the west-most of them are found in ghettos variously called cites, in France, Malmo in Sweden, Bradford in Inglaand. There are many in these countries' prisons.White Christians and Jews will never discuss Islamic immigration with Muslims enabling them to continue living in a fool's paradise. But they will and do intimate th undesirability of Muslim immigration to Hindus.

You are surely on your own.

[joygoswami]

[SBajwa]

Aurungzeb let loose!! moderators do the Needy!

[anupmisra]

Aurungzeb let loose!! moderators do the Needy!

No, please. Let him be. It is educational as well as entertaining. It's nice to get into your adversary's head this engaging way although he is all over the map. Not sure of his background, though. Could be Turkish-American.

[sanjaykumar]

Not sure of his background, though. Could be Turkish-American.


Not at all, Pakistanis ingratiate themselves with Turks, even those who empty dustbins in Berlin (which leads one to question the utopia that is Turkey). The Turks don't give the proverbial rat's a$$ for Pakistanis, merely finding their love an embarrassment.

[member_28030]

Its funny to see you indians cry.

Just because I stated facts, that go against your own held delusions, now I've become a Turko-Paki-Islamist?

Not a SINGLE thing I said is/was contrary to historical and contemporary facts. Turkey's economy is pretty decent, and they are stronger than any E.European country. Just uttering these lines makes someone an "Islamist"? I just David Cameron and Barack Obama are also Islamist, then.

Turks are historical greats...they were the superpower of the world at one point...again, what is wrong with these lines? Just because I am educated enough to have studied history, I am somehow praising 'Islam' now?

What a load of bullcr@p.

I'm not Turkish. Paki?

Try to respond on the merits of posting, keep your verbal diarrhea for someone else.

And for the record, we started discussing this post which led to this. So see things in context

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1549870