Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

ashvin · Post by **ashvin** » 03 Dec 2013 19:00

Some time back Jaswant Singh had claimed that there was a mole in the cabinet during Narasimha Rao's prime ministership ( or Vajpayee). Who was that mole? Was that ever revealed? When I review MMS and his incumbency I am often reminded of that statement by Jaswant Singh. Furthermore, what perplexes me even more is that what really compels MMS to be so perfidious toward the nation and so obsequious to the party. Apologies, I am deviating from the thread.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 03 Dec 2013 19:28

From Dilli...

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Dec 2013 20:03

Karan M wrote:Relevant here, as to why NM is now so important
...
MMS in perspective indeed, and is probably the worst PM India has had, given how many resources he had, and how he ran Indian aspirations into the ground. Probably once he goes, we'll get to know what all he did more than what has come out in media alone, despite the near complete attempt to position him otherwise
...

One more thing to be considered is that the only times he has chosen to asserted himself, putting his foot down even at the risk of the government, in the last 9.5 years were conspicuously when foreign, more specifically massa, interests were involved. First was during the nuclear deal, when the congress had to resort to buying MPs to survive. Second was during the recent retail FDI "reform" (like increasing FDI limit is the only form of reform) which saw UPA loose the TMC, this time the CBI allies saved its behind.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Dec 2013 21:35

What about cancellation of Denel artillery upgrade, anti material rifles since they were causing too many Paaki casualties for Aman Ki Asha, falsely dragging former navy chief in Barak-1 false case and caancelling indigenous manufacture of 155mm shells and slowing down domestic defense production. That is a real traitorous legacy.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 03 Dec 2013 21:46

And removal of AFSPA, 'joint control of Kazmir', and vacating kargil. At the same time not taking action when the chins violate the border and when the bakis occupy territory inside LOC.

Any other sarkaar would have had to something real serious after 26/11. But not MMS. He continued with aman ki tamasha. This is not some misguided policy. Rather this comes across as a dedicated policy that will not be deterred come what may.

Some speculate, even in MSM, that the motivation for these actions is Nobull prize. But, I find that really difficult to believe. I mean will a person betray his country's interests(that too when he is in power) just for some prize? I don't think so. It seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong here...

-----
Kjo saar,
Subbu swamy says that the assets of Antonio are an open secret to everyone except the Indians. Infact, he alleges that the dynasty are blackmailed by all and sundry because of their corruption. This allegation was also repeated by an ex-RaW officer. So, TFTA paper can easily obtain the records if they want to.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 03 Dec 2013 21:51

<--official India Today twitter handle

My Badi Nani (Jaipur) had told me that during emergency days Ambassador after Ambassador filled with gold in their trunks used to leave the royal palaces during the night time.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2013 22:21

Err what is the connection to the SG billionaire story?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Dec 2013 22:30

===== edited out.==== unnecessary.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 03 Dec 2013 22:38

^^There were unconfirmed reports that IG had filched the ancestral wealth of the kachwahas of Jaipur in the emergency.

IIRC Motilal Nehru or someone earlier in the Nehru family had spent time in Jaipur working in a senior position for the Jaipur royal family.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 03 Dec 2013 22:41

Regarding SG: I am just amazed how they can lie so openly, no spin, just plain lie and you can do nothing about it.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 03 Dec 2013 22:42

I wonder if SG gang will ever be prosecuted. Let's see satyameva jayate and all.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 03 Dec 2013 22:57

ramana wrote:Err what is the connection to the SG billionaire story?

The connection is simple Ramana Saar. SG is not just billionaire, #LooteriBahu heads multi-billionaire empire of Nehru Dynasty. Didn't even take a day for Huff post to delete her net worth and appologhize.

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congress-jittery-in-the-wake-of-modis-mega-rallies

gyan-on-gujarat-model-kerala-lawmakers-make-beeline-to-surat

Farticle Alert on Article 370:
modis-call-for-debate-stinks-of-majority-politics The writer says its non-negotiable

Someone needs to tell him what Nehru said "Ghiste ghiste ghis jayega"

Comments:

" Article 370 , among other things, protects the cultural sphere and rights of the people of Jammu and Kashmir."

2 significant achievements of this article 370 claims to protect the cultural sphere and rights of the people of Jammu and Kashmir, as claimed by the author, are -

- Kashmir pandits persecuation by majoity sunnis and subsequently resulting in Pandit's displacement off the valley.

- Persecuation of shias who are barred from celebrating their cultural and traditional festivals. Moharrum is just one such festival for shias

-Ladakhians are almost banned to enter govt jobs, thru unofficial ways of exclusive practices backed by sunni politicians

Best one

That basically means, since I dont have a logical reason to contuer Modi's arguments, I will vomit complicated english vocubulary in the hope that people get befuddled and accept my claims without posing counter arguments.

Guess what buddy? We are not impressed. If the great wall of Berlin can fall, if Bangladesh can be created... then article 370 is nothing.

Article 370 coverage by international media:
Indian media: Narendra Modi's call to 'debate' Kashmir status

--------

Last night or night before GobarPost head Mr. Bahal was exposed on Times Now by Arnab and Piyush Goyal

on his gobar sting blue virus. GobarPost head was mumbling for some answer when Mr. Jha came to rescue

Rahul Mehta · Post by **Rahul Mehta** » 04 Dec 2013 08:50

BJP's initial position was "repeal art-370" and now it has changed to "lets have debate on art-370". And some people see it as evolution and going forward !!!

Essentially, NaMo wants to get rid of commitment that "BJP will repeal art-370". So he is saying that "lets have debate on art-370". So when he becomes PM in may-2, he can keep art-370 as it is, and say to us anti-370 people that "see, in dec-2013, I told you that all I am promising is debate on art-370 ; I never promised that I will repeal art-370 ; so now let the epic debate begin ..." .

So those who wish to to repeal art-370 can vote for NaMo, and all they will get in jun-2014 will be a debate.

So Ram Janam Bhoomi Devalaya issue is now off the promise list. Krishna Janam Bhoomi Devalaya and Kashi Vishvanath Devalaya issues have been killed and buried deep since 1999. Article-370 issue is also now dead. And uniform civil code issue will soon die too. Corruption issue is non-issue anyway.

IMO, only think we will see in in jun-2014

1. Economic growth by large scale entry of MNC-owners

2. MNC-owners and Missionaries want India to fight against (China + Pakistan) axis and later (China + Pakistan + Iran) axis , and so they will beef up Indian Military and Police, which will enable us to counter Pakistan in a better way.

And what will happen to India after MNC-owners and Missionaries are done with China\Pak is anybody's guess

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 04 Dec 2013 08:55

Mods - can we please have a Rahul Mehta Conspiracy Theory thread and move all his posts there, where he can bleat to his heart's content about MNCs and missionaries? Post after post of whining about MNCs and missionaries and how we are all doomed in every thread is nauseating. I grant that he has a political need, but the continuous spouting of conspiracy theories is beginning to grate on the nerves, particularly when he has not an ounce of evidence.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 04 Dec 2013 08:57

YEs am tired of reading RMji's theories

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 04 Dec 2013 09:03

^+1 to that. This is indeed becoming tiresome. Some day the world might indeed end according to these doom sayers, but meanwhile we have to focus on reality.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 04 Dec 2013 09:06

RMji
Even if you are true, Do you have a better plan for Bharateeya's future considering the time we lost already and being surrounded by mortal enemies?
Why not give NM a benefit of doubt and then we can have a discussion on your Missionaries and MNCs theory and article 370, say next year same time?
JMT
Altair

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 09:12

if you can't digest his posts, don't read. or better yet, put him in ignore list. RM already has his own thread.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 04 Dec 2013 09:22

^If he has his own thread then he should post there. The fact that he posts here is indicative of how few people bother to read his thread. He should not pollute fast moving threads with his own agenda, just so he could get more eyeballs on his pet theories. As for not reading his posts, I have been doing it all this time and will continue to do so.

archan · Post by **archan** » 04 Dec 2013 09:35

There were people who were pining for his return. Well now you have him. Arun, as Rahul M said, use the ignore function and you'll never see his posts.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 04 Dec 2013 09:44

Rahul Mehta wrote:So Ram Janam Bhoomi Devalaya issue is now off the promise list. Krishna Janam Bhoomi Devalaya and Kashi Vishvanath Devalaya issues have been killed and buried deep since 1999. Article-370 issue is also now dead. And uniform civil code issue will soon die too.

Good. In my opinion, none of these issues are as important for India's future as

1. Permanently exiling the Dynasty from Indian politics
2. Reinvigorating Indian achievement in all spheres, while promoting pride in Indian civilization and culture
3. Restricting the spread of dogmatic religions that are not in synch with liberal Indian values

As for the last one, the BJP has already promised to make the anti-conversion law cover the full country as a first step. I am sure they will build further on it as the years go by.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Dec 2013 09:48

Well I have disagreed with Rahul Mehta and disagreed with him on several counts....so with those disclaimers out of the way. Rahul is making his point based on what Modi said recently in a speech. So it is pretty much a fair game for Rahul or anybody to appreciate or criticize Modi's ideas. Media "reports" that "some" see the call for debate as "softening" of BJP's stance on Article 370. So Rahul Mehta is not creating CTs.

Similarly Rahul made a case based on Modi's importance to toilets "over" temple as a sign of discarding Ayodhya temple. I prefer government building "toilets" over "temple" unless there is a special need.

Rahul is giving his interpretation/read of Modi based on what he hears and sees; we might disagree and want or not want to debate Rahul on this here. But I do not think his points are in the realm of CTs, yet.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 04 Dec 2013 09:51

SwamyG wrote:Well I have disagreed with Rahul Mehta and disagreed with him on several counts....so with those disclaimers out of the way. Rahul is making his point based on what Modi said recently in a speech. So it is pretty much a fair game for Rahul or anybody to appreciate or criticize Modi's ideas. Media "reports" that "some" see the call for debate as "softening" of BJP's stance on Article 370. So Rahul Mehta is not creating CTs.

Similarly Rahul made a case based on Modi's importance to toilets "over" temple as a sign of discarding Ayodhya temple. I prefer government building "toilets" over "temple" unless there is a special need.

Rahul is giving his interpretation/read of Modi based on what he hears and sees; we might disagree and want or not want to debate Rahul on this here. But I do not think his points are in the realm of CTs, yet.

SwamyG-ji,
Missionaries and MNCs have nothing to do with Article 370. Those are RM's pet theories and he inserts them into every post and how we are all doomed in 2014.

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 04 Dec 2013 09:51

Building devalayas is not the government's business. The govt. should get out of religious issues - stop regulating and controlling temple funds.

If Modi can bring true democracy and prosperity to India, he'd have done Sanatana Dharma a signal service. SD thrives under such conditions. The proselytizing religions do not.

disha · Post by **disha** » 04 Dec 2013 09:55

Rahul Mehta wrote:...Essentially, NaMo wants to get rid of commitment that "BJP will repeal art-370". So he is saying that "lets have debate on art-370". So when he becomes PM in may-2, he can keep art-370 as it is, and say to us anti-370 people that "see, in dec-2013, I told you that all I am promising is debate on art-370 ; I never promised that I will repeal art-370 ; so now let the epic debate begin ..." .

So those who wish to to repeal art-370 can vote for NaMo, and all they will get in jun-2014 will be a debate. ...

Rahul Mehta'ji - I have a quote for you from Abraham Lincoln (and taken from the latest movie):

Abraham Lincoln: A compass, I learned when I was surveying, it'll... it'll point you True North from where you're standing, but it's got no advice about the swamps and deserts and chasms that you'll encounter along the way. If in pursuit of your destination, you plunge ahead, heedless of obstacles, and achieve nothing more than to sink in a swamp... What's the use of knowing True North?

I bring in the above quote purposely because of your statement. I will let you figure out why I bring in the quote.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 04 Dec 2013 10:00

More than any other state, BJP's win in Delhi will seal NAMO as the de facto national leader with appeal in most of India.

Compared to other states Delhi BJP has gone out on limbs to Modi. He is on every, poster, advert and FM ad. I must say this time BJP has done better organisational work then before.

Can't wait for 8th. If BJP wins in Delhi it will be an as important a mile stone as Gujrat last year.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Dec 2013 10:02

nageshks wrote: SwamyG-ji,
Missionaries and MNCs have nothing to do with Article 370. Those are RM's pet theories and he inserts them into every post and how we are all doomed in 2014.

I do not know if Missionaries + MNCs have anything to do with Article 370. However, there have been several discussions in BRF and elsewhere, about the money pumped by missionaries into India for conversion. You must have read about the 10-40 Window, and also read reports of millions of dollars pouring into India. There are FEMA documents.

Right from FDI, arms/weapons procurement, insurance, education, retail, energy (including nuclear) MNCs have considerable interest in India. The lone super power, USA, is pretty much has its hands tied by its corporations. The East India Company swayed Britain, trade has always influenced Kingdoms/countries to befriend or fight others.

So MNCs and Missionaries are definite influence, is it as much as Rahul makes it out? That is up for a debate. I am just saying there are some points from Mehta ji and everything is not CTs. Well you are free to protest

and make requests to admin. I have no comments on that. My comments are specific to the point of CT. More over he is "officially" a politician.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 04 Dec 2013 10:12

Nice catalogue of Modi Rallies

http://www.niticentral.com/modirally/

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 04 Dec 2013 10:52

sudarshan wrote:Building devalayas is not the government's business. The govt. should get out of religious issues - stop regulating and controlling temple funds.

If Modi can bring true democracy and prosperity to India, he'd have done Sanatana Dharma a signal service. SD thrives under such conditions. The proselytizing religions do not.

True. But, then building shauchalayas is also not the business of the govt. Ideally, govt should create a situation where people are able to take care of their own needs(sanitation or religious or financial or social) without the interruption of the govt.

'Lets build Shauchalaya' seems like a shauchalaya-ration scheme to me. No wonder this line was started by the kongis. But, I am surprised that NaMo took it up. I can understand govt. trying to build awareness among people. I can understand govt trying to provide facilities like water supply and drainage system. But, I can't understand sarkaari shauchalaya scheme specially in rural areas. Yep, in large cities, one can understand the public toilets.

Frankly this seems like another kongi hare-brained idea. I would have expected the NaMo to refute it. Instead, he has repeated the same thing.

----
As long as sarkaar eats the funds of temple or funds the building of prayer houses of non-Hindhu creeds, it cannot really claim to be 'secular'. If a sarkaar wants to be 'secular', then it should first stop taking the temple funds and stop funding the prayer houses of non-Hindhu creeds.

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 04 Dec 2013 10:55

Sri wrote:More than any other state, BJP's win in Delhi will seal NAMO as the de facto national leader with appeal in most of India.

Even if BJP comes out as the single largest party in Delhi, it will have signalled Modi's arrival as the de facto leader of India. If AAP does not want to tie up with Congi as they have been saying and as Kapil ji postulated, BJP will form the govt but it will be susceptible to threat of AAP+Congi alliance and no confidence movement.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 04 Dec 2013 11:09

Whether RM ji's points are conspiracies or not, we will know very soon. But Namo has given us many indications in the last 6 months that there is a 20% chance he may go astray. So we should use RM ji's inputs to create a pressure group in the government in 2014. We should have 10 - 20 very important issues on which we need to create daily pressure on the Namo govt. This needs to be done in a much more shrewd and effective manner than what vhp-rss guys did during the abv govt. See how numbersusa puts pressure on the republicans in the US.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 11:10

Arun Menon wrote:^If he has his own thread then he should post there. The fact that he posts here is indicative of how few people bother to read his thread. He should not pollute fast moving threads with his own agenda, just so he could get more eyeballs on his pet theories. As for not reading his posts, I have been doing it all this time and will continue to do so.

his thread is for his pet schemes, why should he be asked to post about modi there ? I find his posts petulant and silly but as long as his posts are relevant to the topic and doesn't violate BR rules of personal attack etc he can post anywhere he wants.

frankly, I dont get the angst, if you don't like it put him on ignore. you can't ask BR to do thought policing.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 04 Dec 2013 11:41

muraliravi wrote:Whether RM ji's points are conspiracies or not, we will know very soon. But Namo has given us many indications in the last 6 months that there is a 20% chance he may go astray. So we should use RM ji's inputs to create a pressure group in the government in 2014. We should have 10 - 20 very important issues on which we need to create daily pressure on the Namo govt. This needs to be done in a much more shrewd and effective manner than what vhp-rss guys did during the abv govt. See how numbersusa puts pressure on the republicans in the US.

+1, notice how pressure on twitter forced Modi to respond to KP issue. Another example is criticism of D4 on the web/social media, this pressure is one big reason for Modis elevation when all the rootless wonders were against that.

So IMVHO we need people like RMji and Vinod Sharmaji(@vinod_sharma) to keep them in check.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 04 Dec 2013 11:48

Applying pressure to keep our ship on course is all well and good, but perseverating on the same thing nonstop will render any point or argument useless, as it will be coated in the thick muck of paranoia and CT.

Furthermore, I don't think its any pressure from the likes of us keyboard warriors that forced Modi to mention the Kashmiri Pandits. If you remember, there was similar outrage at how he did not mention the BJP/RSS workers martyred in Tamil Nadu before his speech there. He is said to have had discussions about that in the back rooms and it is purported to be the reason why he didn't utter a single good word about Jayalalitha. All the hand-wringing and whining about it did not make a ounce of difference. Same with the toilet issue, no retractions.

Mr. Modi is made of stuff far sterner than many people realize. He has an agenda and will work accordingly. He did not fail to mention the KPs because it slipped his mind or because of pressure from some weasel in the party. I am sure he has good reasons for that. At the end of the day, I see a secular brigade on the back-foot on article 370 for the first time in memory and trying hard to turn the tables on Mr. Modi by making vague remarks about how he compromised on repealing article 370. I can't believe people are falling for the filthy tricks of paidmedia again. Why would there be a debate on article 370 if not to repeal it? Is that so difficult to fathom? Rather than be disciplined soldiers in the war against evil, at each and every opportunity we prove ourselves to be the infamous argumentative Indian and pounce on our own kind. Is it even a wonder whey we are in this mess in the first place?

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 04 Dec 2013 12:26

I don't understand why people would think modi's call for people's debate on A370 is to diluting bjp's stand on it. In fact he has given this issue a new dimension to think about. And that dimension is as important (if not more) to talk about as KPs issue. J&K govt has been eating up central govt's funds badly since decades. The funds don't reach to ordinary kashmiris. It is safe to assume that good amount of that fund is used to hit India back with terrorism. Because of 370 the state govt cannot be scrutinized for this. NM's reference to only 50 families benefiting from 370 was in this regard i.e. politicians of J&K. On one side the J&K ordinary people are not benefiting and on the other side rest of India are starved of funds even after paying tax on hard earned money. More is that they are attacked by terrorists using their own money. This is not only for Kashmiris, this issue is for entire India to think about. NM is trying to build a consensus before he takes the decision on 370. The development and corruption are two issues which will relate even kashmiri muslims (well I only hope so). If people keep talking about 370 as a communal issue then most people will distance themselves from the debate (which is pathetic though). This is why I said that this was a landmark speech.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 Dec 2013 12:39

archan wrote:There were people who were pining for his return. Well now you have him. Arun, as Rahul M said, use the ignore function and you'll never see his posts.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 04 Dec 2013 12:52

Yep, the way NaMo ignited this 370 debate was superb and sheer genius. This is much more than electoral politics at play. He is gunning for something much bigger. And obviously KPs are going to be part of it. KP issue is a defensive posture. 370 issue is the offensive posture. NaMo took the offensive posture. And he linked it with corruption and development. In one stroke, he aimed at both the kashmiri politicos and their nexus with the dilli billis.

The same points can be made in regard to NE as well. If nothing else, this single speech should be enough to convince people that NaMo is the right guy for the job.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 04 Dec 2013 13:08

While I think this Devalaya business is distracting from what I feel is the more important reforms that needs to be done if and when NaMo becomes PM, RM's aspirations are as valid as mine.
That said, in his speeches I don't think NaMo has gotten into appeasing individual segments of the population. His speeches, as much I read and heard about them, have always been creating a equal platform for everyone in the form of development for all and atleast starting the debate about issues like 370 which confers special category on some group. I believe this is his overarching theme. I think his not talking about Kashmiri Pandits genuine grievances falls into that category. The idea of dividing the population and appeasing each one of them has gotten us into this soup. I am glad he is not treading into these minefields,as the opposition without and within wants him to do.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 04 Dec 2013 13:48

RahulM wrote:I find his posts petulant and silly but as long as his posts are relevant to the topic and doesn't violate BR rules of personal attack etc he can post anywhere he wants.

I don't find them so.

Karan M wrote:
archan wrote:There were people who were pining for his return. Well now you have him. Arun, as Rahul M said, use the ignore function and you'll never see his posts.

Frankly this shouldn't snowball into a discussion about a particular poster and his quirks (every one here has some) rather than the pith of his opinions - as mods themselves regularly make sure to point out.

Regarding his posts themselves . I don't think they are being made with aim towards his political gains (as some posters keep needlessly insinuating) . Frankly with election budget of 8 lakh from his pocket and about 7000 votes polled as an independent ,RM ji is hardly your run of the mill blockbuster politician - in fact I don't see him relevant to me as a politician at all since I don't reside in his Ahmedabad constituency. Further none of his posts here were ever in the "vote for me" mold - so the posts insinuating his politician status to put down his opinion are un justified.

Regarding whether there is pressure on NaMo to know tow to MNC and Missionary interests - every one here will agree that its there.
Whether he will bend to their pressure is a wrong question . He at the least needs to give the impression that he is bending to their will (that implies infact bending to their will on what he sees as relatively unsubstantial issues for the larger goal) for his govt to function.
Provided those exceptions are taken to strengthen Bharat in the nearterm upto the next election cycle.
Ultimately a great leader is one who best shields and enables more space for the next crop of leaders to be nurtured in the core philosophy so that when Bharat's hand becomes more stronger by the next election its leaders can drive a harder bargain with these interests.
NaMo is an important link in that continuum and for each subsequent link to be more Hindutva waadi than previous the climate and the pressure from the ever critical and expanding core has to be kept relentlessly. For this to happen , his PM ship will not hinder the larger Bharatiya consolidation process currently occurring in private sphere (for the sake of development goals) is my firm belief , and if I know him , he will in fact hasten it - which is the true reason for his elevation.
All said and done suffice to say that my vote is for Bhajapa and NaMo and nothing said or uttered in this dhaga will change it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2013 15:12

Lilo, that was my point. I don't have to find them interesting.