Statewide and National runup to 2014 General elections

[Karan M]

ROTFL - if 2/3rds of AAP guys split off and join the BJP, it would be the funniest thing ever - just to watch shri Kejriwal & their online fanbase's reaction. (hint: apoplexy)
Very unlikely to happen though

[Sri]

^^^

They will join INC.

[niran]

folks here misses the point counting is 3 days away
and these people are protituting themselves some corruption busters they are.

[pankajs]

AAP or AAP breakaway joining hands with either party will weaken their appeal during Lok Sabha in Delhi and around the country. For BJP, AAP with INC would bolster their case of AAP being INC B team. It would make them the only alternative for INC's anti-incumbency vote.

[Dilbu]

BJP will lose onlee.

[pankajs]

If BJP does not get a majority on its own .. The only viable trick for INC and AAP would be to form an AAP gov. with outside INC support.

Allow INC and AAP to keep BJP out of power in Delhi and deny them to claim of a sweep in this round. Will allow AAP to show results in this radical experiment and claim victory. Allow AAP experiment to rolled out to the rest of the country and damage BJP. After Lok Sabha polls AAP can merge with INC. 4-6 months to Lok Sabha polls enough to keep the momentum going for AAP without having to do any thing substantial in Delhi except sloganeering.

[Lilo]

I know. Bajrang Dal has appeal for rural people. Urban young crowd is far removed from that reality. Freedom of expression is a very important thing. I despise Islamists because of their burqa mentality. Now when semi-illiterate BD, SS goons just barge in to art galleries, movie halls and shops to enforce the same Islamist agenda, they are no better than Talibani Islamists.

If BJP has to increase it's vote share among young voters, it has to understand that what BD, SS do in name of "Hindutva" will not help them. Even right wingers like me are put off by such incidents.

Agreed. By doing all this they play into the oppositions hands by stereotyping themselves. Plus, if there is anything truly objectionable, the BJP and all these other orgs need to learn how to use the system rather than attempting to take the law into their own hands. A court order against something like this is preferable to attacking the exhibit and inconveniencing/angering bystanders and attendees. That is the game our elite media/establishment types play very well. Force should be a matter of last resort against those who use force to cow others.

Actually such fringe muscle based groups exist in every ideological stream.

One shouldnt fall in the MSM trap of equal equal being made that
BD, VHP == Taleban

Frankly These guys never use sophisticated weapons forget about the perversities like human bombs fashionable in the Islamic circles. They just turn up to the street fight with whatever house hold materials one has at hand. This is expected because , If your jhuggis are being burnt and women and children are being killed , there is no time to comb your hair or turn up in style.

The ideological spectrum the above groups belong to is itself vast from Rajeev Malhotra types to Sri Ram Sene type posers.Yet our MSM takes great pains to equate this muscle protecting the poorer sections of Hindus (or posers like Sri Ram sene) to Taleban (for sikular considerations they went all the way to an Afghan group to make the comparison) as if the much worse and brutally sadistic Maowaadis and Islamic Terrorists and Jihadis dont exist within India .

MSM is paid to make this equal equal that Yindutvavaadi == Taleban, the fact that they are using Bajrangis or anyone else is not the issue . MSM is the issue. After getting into power through his wide spread appeal in non-english media watching classes, this time NaMo should bring the media to heel.There wont be another chance. Start with making a few examples out of cretins like Vinod Mehta etc. Rest will take the que and voluntarily undo the damage they did to BJP's image all these years through their paid for propaganda.

BD and VHP all said and done have an org , rules of behavior and well defined situations where they are expected to engage physically to protect the core ideologues (example the swami speaking for the Bhagyalaxmi temple in Old city Hyd)

The problem is the continuous spotlight on this "street violence" (necessary aspect in groups like Bajrang dal) is being used by the Sikular media to delegitamize and put down the whole ideological stream itself for the average TV watching urbanite.

The solution is to not disown the these orgs in the scramble to package yourself for the yuppies (these groups are after all the ones who stand between you and the Islamist ghazis like Owaisis in Hyd, and in WB ,Kerala,Kishtwar etc or where ever the chips are down).

Rather first Grab power. Turn the current narrative by MSM centered on these groups to other groups within the ideological stream more appealing to yuppies ( like the cerebral ideologues and groups which espouse unwavering commitment to Nationalism) - and make it a new 24x7 affair in English news media. Such "cool" groups exist in the BJP stream too - look how Tejpal has been dragged over coals by one such group in SM.

[panduranghari]

AAPtards got 20000 people from across the country to help with delhi polling. Do they have the numbers to do that at the national level? Only by being a Congi B team its possible. Its a pity that LKA and his gang allowed the rise of AAPtards. This is what happens when people become career politicians.

[panduranghari]

BD and VHP all said and done have an org , rules of behavior and well defined situations where they are expected to engage physically to protect the core ideologues (example the swami speaking for the Bhagyalaxmi temple in Old city Hyd)

Lilo ji,

Whats wrong in engaging in physical violence if its being reciprocated?

[Karan M]

Lilo ji and PRH ji - point is if the system is structured to make you "lose" - ie provoke you and have you engage in physical stuff which is a) bad for further growth/makes you into eebil fscist and b ) gets the law and order system to target you too..

why play by these rules?
agree with you that MSM wants dhimmi, totally deracinated community and that shouldnt be allowed to happen either. but violence should be a matter of last resort against thugs who use it.

[Lilo]

In a teeming urban slum iam not wrong when I say that violence is a daily fact of life. Violent situations are quite common ly faced and when police don't care (for sikular reasons) then people them selves group together and stand up.

So KM ji and PRH ji - I am also making the same point with regard to above , that although violence should be the last resort that last resort happens to be the only resort in quite a few situations on the ground .

[kapilrdave]

Before I start my post, I will say I respect you a lot Jamwal ji and Karan ji. But I can't let pass this stereotype against VHP/BD.

Many young people don't vote for BJP because of the antics of Bajrang Dal, SHiv Sena goons. Their Talibani mentality on things like Valentines Day, alcohol, dresses etc. is hardly inspiring. Most people think that BJP=BD,SS goons

Yes yes. We should not do anything but to ride the horse of high morale in our A/C chamber and whine about how we are deracinated by x,y,z. Something called dhimmified hindus?

Let me tell you what these BD and VHP types 'talibanis' do when they are not barging art galleries and movie halls. These goons save hundreds of cows from being slaughtered everyday. Just last Janmastami muslim butchers of an area decided to slaughter more than 100 cows on the same day. Reason? Krishna Bhagvan loved cows . VHP/BD cadre literally fought with them and released 120 cows. My relative was leading the VHP crowd who ended up fracturing his hand. At times he goes with his team to 'one of those' area and bring back cows from inside the slaughter house. That is not a job of faint hearted.

When VHP/BD are not beating up love birds of valentines day they deter muslim lover boys from executing their love jihad. Everyday, repeat everyday, these guys have to patrol around girls collages and hostels to nab jihadis. Now anyone can guess that these jihadis would have some sound backing of musclemen of their community. But those musclemen don't dare to utter a word against these real hindu warriors. Everyday there would be multiple cases where a helpless father of a stupid girl who fell in a fraud muslim lover and eloped. There is only one place where these fathers can go for help (because police can't help). That is VHP/BD. And needless to say that they do deliver at the risk of their life. What do they get in return? Utter hateret of dhimmifieds. But they don't care. They know that this is a dirty job that to be done by someone.

When VHP/BD are not opposing the western dressing of girls they do everything to stop people converting from hinduism. At the time of riots they will be the one who will take the first brunt of muslims on their own to save dhimmis. They just hope that these dhimmis will see their bravery and join them.

A court order against something like this is preferable to attacking the exhibit and inconveniencing/angering bystanders and attendees.

You must be jocking. What law? What would you do within the law against the likes of MF Hussain who can think nothing other than nudity in Indian gods/goddesses? Why he hadn't painted a one single painting against prophet or christ? Why do these 'Art Galleries' see art in only paki artists?

What would you do within law against a love jihadi who elope with a stupid hindu girl?

What can you do within law against cows being slaughtered everyday?

What can you do against EJs luring hindus for conversion?

That is the game our elite media/establishment types play very well. Force should be a matter of last resort against those who use force to cow others.

Well if everyone started caring what media thinks about them then we would have been a non-hindu country by now.

People just dont get it. There is a war out there since centuries. And to fight a war you need soldiers, not arm chair generals. Words are cheap. Actually doing something is more important.

[pankajs]

How exit polls predicting BJP sweep have affected map of Telangana - NDTV

[kittoo]

Before I start my post, I will say I respect you a lot Jamwal ji and Karan ji. But I can't let pass this stereotype against VHP/BD.

Many young people don't vote for BJP because of the antics of Bajrang Dal, SHiv Sena goons. Their Talibani mentality on things like Valentines Day, alcohol, dresses etc. is hardly inspiring. Most people think that BJP=BD,SS goons

Yes yes. We should not do anything but to ride the horse of high morale in our A/C chamber and whine about how we are deracinated by x,y,z. Something called dhimmified hindus?

Let me tell you what these BD and VHP types 'talibanis' do when they are not barging art galleries and movie halls. These goons save hundreds of cows from being slaughtered everyday. Just last Janmastami muslim butchers of an area decided to slaughter more than 100 cows on the same day. Reason? Krishna Bhagvan loved cows . VHP/BD cadre literally fought with them and released 120 cows. My relative was leading the VHP crowd who ended up fracturing his hand. At times he goes with his team to 'one of those' area and bring back cows from inside the slaughter house. That is not a job of faint hearted.

When VHP/BD are not beating up love birds of valentines day they deter muslim lover boys from executing their love jihad. Everyday, repeat everyday, these guys have to patrol around girls collages and hostels to nab jihadis. Now anyone can guess that these jihadis would have some sound backing of musclemen of their community. But those musclemen don't dare to utter a word against these real hindu warriors. Everyday there would be multiple cases where a helpless father of a stupid girl who fell in a fraud muslim lover and eloped. There is only one place where these fathers can go for help (because police can't help). That is VHP/BD. And needless to say that they do deliver at the risk of their life. What do they get in return? Utter hateret of dhimmifieds. But they don't care. They know that this is a dirty job that to be done by someone.

When VHP/BD are not opposing the western dressing of girls they do everything to stop people converting from hinduism. At the time of riots they will be the one who will take the first brunt of muslims on their own to save dhimmis. They just hope that these dhimmis will see their bravery and join them.

A court order against something like this is preferable to attacking the exhibit and inconveniencing/angering bystanders and attendees.

You must be jocking. What law? What would you do within the law against the likes of MF Hussain who can think nothing other than nudity in Indian gods/goddesses? Why he hadn't painted a one single painting against prophet or christ? Why do these 'Art Galleries' see art in only paki artists?

What would you do within law against a love jihadi who elope with a stupid hindu girl?

What can you do within law against cows being slaughtered everyday?

What can you do against EJs luring hindus for conversion?

That is the game our elite media/establishment types play very well. Force should be a matter of last resort against those who use force to cow others.

Well if everyone started caring what media thinks about them then we would have been a non-hindu country by now.

People just dont get it. There is a war out there since centuries. And to fight a war you need soldiers, not arm chair generals. Words are cheap. Actually doing something is more important.

Agree wholeheartedly. These are the same points I bring up whenever someone starts ranting against BD/VHP guys. My pranaam to them and to you.

[Atri]

Bau saari post, kapilbhai.

[Karan M]

A court order against something like this is preferable to attacking the exhibit and inconveniencing/angering bystanders and attendees.

You must be jocking. What law? What would you do within the law against the likes of MF Hussain who can think nothing other than nudity in Indian gods/goddesses? Why he hadn't painted a one single painting against prophet or christ? Why do these 'Art Galleries' see art in only paki artists?

What would you do within law against a love jihadi who elope with a stupid hindu girl?

What can you do within law against cows being slaughtered everyday?

What can you do against EJs luring hindus for conversion?

If the same laws can be used to target hindus for outraging minority sentiments, same can be done other way too. Point is use the physical means only when you have to (and you do point a few examples) but otherwise, use the system wherever possible. If all you have is a hammer.. that approach needs to stop.

Conversions, love jihad - all can be targeted using the law. The point is how best to do it and who will help the BJP do it. Right now, the entire fix-law, get things done easily group seems to be in the other camp. And no wonder they had an easy ride for 8 years.

That is the game our elite media/establishment types play very well. Force should be a matter of last resort against those who use force to cow others.

Well if everyone started caring what media thinks about them then we would have been a non-hindu country by now.

And aren't we? Conversion percentages are a big issue across India even in the south. Whether we like it or not, a huge demographic is westernising and is getting away from their own identity because they are confused about what their own people are, fed to them by media tropes. You have to have different tools in the shed for all groups.

People just dont get it. There is a war out there since centuries. And to fight a war you need soldiers, not arm chair generals. Words are cheap. Actually doing something is more important.

Exactly. If there is a war on, then what is being done is also important. The point being made is not to talk about "words are cheap" or engage in the sort of personalized arguments you are making, misunderstanding what others are saying.

So understand what is being said. You need not just muscle men, but lawyers, branding professionals, marketing executives- all those middle class, white collar professionals who can make the VHP/BJP more popular and also work the system to help the right cause. Right now, many in this group are mostly undecided or pro-INC.

The point is what needs to be done is to be nuanced and has to meet different situations differently. Per your one size fits all approach, many people will never turn to BJP, let alone VHP et al.

[nawabs]

If BJP does not get a majority on its own .. The only viable trick for INC and AAP would be to form an AAP gov. with outside INC support.

Allow INC and AAP to keep BJP out of power in Delhi and deny them to claim of a sweep in this round. Will allow AAP to show results in this radical experiment and claim victory. Allow AAP experiment to rolled out to the rest of the country and damage BJP. After Lok Sabha polls AAP can merge with INC. 4-6 months to Lok Sabha polls enough to keep the momentum going for AAP without having to do any thing substantial in Delhi except sloganeering.

Don't think they will merge together. They might support each other in times of 'need' and for that too, a convincing story needs to be developed to pacify most of AAP supporters (if what people say about most of AAPians supporting Modi at national level). But they will not merge because AAP is more of a foreign investment having a 'pact' with Congress and not it's B team itself. Both parties seperate will serve their backers well.

[kapilrdave]

You need not just muscle men

I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that rejecting VHP/BD for the kind of work they are doing and equating them with talibanis and goons is unfair. Yes, from your post I agree that we don't need just musclemen. But we do need them. And we need them badly and in bigger number.

The law rout you are talking about is not feasible for individual cases. By the time the verdict would come the girl (or converted by EJ) would have kids doing love jihad themselves. You can use law only for systemic change. If that is not being done, too bad. But that doesn't mean that what is being done should also stop.

We are going OT so I would consider responding on other relevant thread after this post. Thanks.

[Hari Seldon]

Before I start my post, I will say I respect you a lot Jamwal ji and Karan ji. But I can't let pass this stereotype against VHP/BD.

Many young people don't vote for BJP because of the antics of Bajrang Dal, SHiv Sena goons. Their Talibani mentality on things like Valentines Day, alcohol, dresses etc. is hardly inspiring. Most people think that BJP=BD,SS goons

Yes yes. We should not do anything but to ride the horse of high morale in our A/C chamber and whine about how we are deracinated by x,y,z. Something called dhimmified hindus?

Let me tell you what these BD and VHP types 'talibanis' do when they are not barging art galleries and movie halls. These goons save hundreds of cows from being slaughtered everyday. Just last Janmastami muslim butchers of an area decided to slaughter more than 100 cows on the same day. Reason? Krishna Bhagvan loved cows . VHP/BD cadre literally fought with them and released 120 cows. My relative was leading the VHP crowd who ended up fracturing his hand. At times he goes with his team to 'one of those' area and bring back cows from inside the slaughter house. That is not a job of faint hearted.

When VHP/BD are not beating up love birds of valentines day they deter muslim lover boys from executing their love jihad. Everyday, repeat everyday, these guys have to patrol around girls collages and hostels to nab jihadis. Now anyone can guess that these jihadis would have some sound backing of musclemen of their community. But those musclemen don't dare to utter a word against these real hindu warriors. Everyday there would be multiple cases where a helpless father of a stupid girl who fell in a fraud muslim lover and eloped. There is only one place where these fathers can go for help (because police can't help). That is VHP/BD. And needless to say that they do deliver at the risk of their life. What do they get in return? Utter hateret of dhimmifieds. But they don't care. They know that this is a dirty job that to be done by someone.

When VHP/BD are not opposing the western dressing of girls they do everything to stop people converting from hinduism. At the time of riots they will be the one who will take the first brunt of muslims on their own to save dhimmis. They just hope that these dhimmis will see their bravery and join them.

A court order against something like this is preferable to attacking the exhibit and inconveniencing/angering bystanders and attendees.

You must be jocking. What law? What would you do within the law against the likes of MF Hussain who can think nothing other than nudity in Indian gods/goddesses? Why he hadn't painted a one single painting against prophet or christ? Why do these 'Art Galleries' see art in only paki artists?

What would you do within law against a love jihadi who elope with a stupid hindu girl?

What can you do within law against cows being slaughtered everyday?

What can you do against EJs luring hindus for conversion?

That is the game our elite media/establishment types play very well. Force should be a matter of last resort against those who use force to cow others.

Well if everyone started caring what media thinks about them then we would have been a non-hindu country by now.

People just dont get it. There is a war out there since centuries. And to fight a war you need soldiers, not arm chair generals. Words are cheap. Actually doing something is more important.

+1 sir.
I'm as high-brow for political and legal niceties as the next guy. But *only* when there's some semblence of a level playing field. MKG himself taught that unfair systems deserve to be opposed. Regardless of whether the establishment likes it or not.

[RajeshA]

Here the problem is indeed one of image, where "Western modernity" in India has forced everything Bharatiya to look "uncool"! Change in this perception is a mid-term plan! However good looking young ladies in one's political corner always help in selling one's politics as well. That is where I think ABVP can concentrate, especially using the issue of women's security.

Please don't pass such ungratuitous remarks about people just because they did not vote for your favorite political party.

Thanks for the input and raising some salient points.

1. Respect for the will of the people: One needs to differentiate here between acceptance of the will, which is unconditional, and respect for the quality of judgment of the people. Of course in the end one looks at one's own failure in better convincing the other side, but should one then smother criticism of the other's judgment and choice? Then all political debate would come to a halt.

2. Cursing others due to a difference of opinion: If you feel that has been the case here, then it is a misreading of my post on your part. I feel, that is a worthless exercise and I am not indulging in it. Putting a label on someone or a group is not necessarily cursing just to vent off some steam.

3. Putting Labels and Definitions on various Groups: Labels in the political arena have multiple purposes. For one it is useful for political analysis to create a sociopolitical and cultural taxonomy which helps to better calibrate one's own behavior towards them to either better shield oneself or to better influence them for one's purpose. I'm aware it stereotypes people but this stereotyping is not based on birth or status based factors but due ideological and cultural bent so the observer still needs to do individual analysis. Moreover labels and definitions are useful in today's media interaction with short attention spans, good sound bites and 140 char length messaging. Moreover these are useful as it puts one's opponents on the defensive and ensures not only a momentary upper hand, but also encourages the dialogue partner to do introspection to see whether the labeling was justified or why the other got such a perception. So it is a tool for rhetoric and this tool has been used for quite some time now - orthodox, conservatives, nationalists, chauvinists, left-liberals, radicals, bigots, seculars, pseudoseculars ..... So I think it is time for the Hindutvavadis to also get to know their opposition and the social challenge better and more easily. Differentiation helps.

If the political party and its apparatus (which includes ABVP) cannot identify with the aspirations of people and clearly deliver a message, then the fault lies with the party and not people. It is all very nice and dandy to talk about 'dharma' and 'Bhartiyata' on an internet forum and talk big - but all this amounts to zilch if the political party cannot ensure that the drain outside my house is covered and I get regular water supply.

Considering the decades of Nehruvian secularism and Macaulayism ruling over India, some "dandy" talk should be tolerated.

I agree that ultimately a Hindutvavadi political party and various orgs too would have to deliver accountability, transparency, governance, development and justice besides security.

But all that is a given, and people should look for alternatives if their elected leaders fail to deliver. The issue is about the quality of the alternative. Let's say my tenant of a room next to mines does not pay rent regularly or on time. Would I then go and rent it to some rapist? Would I not want to do some security checks or ask for some references or try out my own critical eye on him?

Or should my decision not be second-guessed simply because I am the landlord and I refuse to do the checks?

Why do you think the social media is filled with supporters of NM who don't necessarily identify with BJP? Why are these English speaking and people with 'western' modern outlook supporting Modi? Why is the BJP expected to do well in urban areas? It is because these people have a stake in the development and they can see first hand the effects of corruption, misgovernance and indecision. They want better lives for themselves and their children. And they somehow feel BJP can do that.

The people who voted for AAP also have similar aspirations and feel they can deliver the goods.

True many "western" modern outlook people support Modi, but I don't remember saying they would not do so. There are just as many "western" modern outlook people who are rabidly against Modi.

The first group supports Modi because, besides being enamored by his administrative record and his personality, they are comfortable with his brand of Hindutva. Just because one is "modern" does not mean one loses one's comfort with Bharatiya Sanskriti and faith in the native ingenuity.

For the benefit of all let me try to define what I mean by Yuppie.

A Yuppie is one whose primary interest is to extract fastest and maximum from life in terms of status, fun and money and extols everything that provides him with the same. The Yuppie as such often aligns with the elite and their cultural and ideological inclination and preferences, and in the Indian case it is with the thought that non-native systems are better at delivering that what he aspires for, thus psychologically separating the elite and the system, and ascribing all the problems in the system to native inefficiency and corruption.

Now there are many groups which voted for the AAP, not just Yuppies. A lot of "jholawallahs", Marxist types, idealistic college going people, were also part of Kejriwal's army. And there were many concerned Delhi citizens who too voted for AAP.

The comments in my initial post were concerned only with Yuppies, as that is a group I consider to not have much of ideological convictions and a group which certainly can be brought to the Bharatiya camp, as their chief concern is themselves.

Yippies, who are usually apolitical and couldn't care less, joined AAP because of media buildup of Kejriwal, because of networking by the college jholawallas, and because of the "coolness" factor.

Apropos "coolness" factor was visible at the AAP Concert at Jantar Mantar on Nov 23, 2013.

This is not a comment on the idealistic college goers who think system needs to change. Among these there may be many who feel completely at ease with Modi's Hindutva or his development politics. Yippies however would not feel comfortable with Bharatiyata or Hindutva at the moment simply because of cultural preferences which they derive from DIE.

If the person can come in, set-up a party out of scratch and go on to win 10-15 seats (conservatively speaking) all within a matter of one-year, than he must have done something right. Whether he is able to deliver or not remains to be seen. But if he delivers a message which hits home to an extent that people come out to vote especially for him, then he has done something which BJP failed to do.

There is nothing to Kejriwal. His accomplishments are simply not commensurate with the attention he received. He thanks everything to Anna Hazare and a massive campaign in MSM to promote AAP, the latter an undertaking by some powers that be, both internal and external.

And yes there are many "secularists" who are willing to move on to another organization, other than Congress, which they feel is dying due to over-corruption and past its use. There is a need for a new carrier of the same ideological stream.

If the co called 'kool-aid' drunk crowd actually moves it butt and comes out to vote in favor of what they see as a viable alternative, it simply goes to show that this 'good-for-nothing' bunch also has aspirations. And believes in something. And if it sees these aspirations being filled (or promises made to the effect), it will vote. And vote in a manner so as to make an impact.

Yuppies are generally at the moment angry with the Congress as well for their bank balances and opportunities have been ruined as well. They are generally happy with a high growth rate and opportunities and not too hung up on how it looks in the rural areas or how the cultural struggle pans out.

Let me give you a small anecdote:

My maternal family has been staunchly pro-BJP. And in every election has done lot of ground work for BJP. In fact, most of my maternal village WAS pro-BJP. But you know what they did in last state elections? They revolted almost enmasse against sitting BJP CANDIDATE - because he was found to completely aloof to people's requirement save for the community he came from. The whole village (and it is a pretty big and influential village) voted for a Congress candidate. And the tragedy was that this Congress was fielded from outside the area.

Long story short - just calling oneself 'Akhil Bhartiya Vidyarthi Parishad' will not get people's vote. You need to work for same. And ensure you deliver the right message.

Well my small anecdote is that my parents voted for AAP for similar reasons, and I have to gulp that down as well.

My example of ABVP was solely related to getting Yuppies on their side. They should try with idealistic college going kids as well. Networking goes a long way.

[Karan M]

You need not just muscle men

I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that rejecting VHP/BD for the kind of work they are doing and equating them with talibanis and goons is unfair. Yes, from your post I agree that we don't need just musclemen. But we do need them. And we need them badly and in bigger number.

The law rout you are talking about is not feasible for individual cases. By the time the verdict would come the girl (or converted by EJ) would have kids doing love jihad themselves. You can use law only for systemic change. If that is not being done, too bad. But that doesn't mean that what is being done should also stop.

We are going OT so I would consider responding on other relevant thread after this post. Thanks.

Then we are in agreement. My point is that hard force is only to be used as necessary not being frittered away on fringe activities (protesting against v-day etc) - even having a large number of musclemen is not a bad thing, only that they then may have to use force only when they must.
By doing so, and co-opting all the urbanized folks who are hitherto scared of VHP/BD - they will reap the benefits. Urban indian hindus have to understand that VHP/BD actually protect them and are not against them. That would involve some compromise by VHP types as well on which issues to protest etc.

At the end of the day, if the current GOI had not been such a disaster economically, the BJP may still have had a hard sell in urban India. That has to change is what I am saying.

[RajeshA]

Published on Dec 5, 2013
By R Jagannathan
The idea of AAP: why it feeds the middle class fantasy Firstpost

[RajeshA]

Albatrossinflight ‏@albatrossinfo
No Delhi piece for now, has been withheld till full data is out. Will say this much, AAP seems to be suffering in the evening surge of votes

[Muppalla]

Lilo ji and PRH ji - point is if the system is structured to make you "lose" - ie provoke you and have you engage in physical stuff which is a) bad for further growth/makes you into eebil fscist and b ) gets the law and order system to target you too..

why play by these rules?
agree with you that MSM wants dhimmi, totally deracinated community and that shouldnt be allowed to happen either. but violence should be a matter of last resort against thugs who use it.

+1. I wrote long time back with Cricket analogy. First play by the rules of enemy's game and become top of it and then change rules. In cricket India played when Auzzies and Brits have veto powers of ICC. Now India is the one that creates the rules and it has the power to change schedule to accommodate IPL in the schedule.

Similarly VHP, BD has to play the rules, bring more votes to BJP and change rules. Meanwhile, do not lose focus. Do not become Abhimanya of Mahabharat. Sympathies will be there but you will always lose.

[VikramS]

https://twitter.com/abpnewstv/status/408604456591163392

CG is close it seems

ABP News exit poll in Chhattishgarh: Cong: 42, BJP: 43 and others: 5
#KaunBanegaMukhyamantri.

[vishvak]

There must be reasons why silent majority is not allowed to arm for self defense. We are very much non violent country entirely but dhimmitude lets people get away with violence against people and traditions.

[jamwal]

kapildarve sahib,

I agree with almost all of your points. I don't exactly hate BD and I realise that they are very much needed in our country. I'm even trying to get a RSS/VHP membership myself but can't find enough information or time to do so. I also realise that the violence is necessary at times.

My gripe with BD is their hooliganism against arts and public display of affection kind of stuff. If they are beating up love jihadis, I'd love to join the group myself. But most of the time, they are harassing young couples in the name of protecting Bhartiya sabhyta, hamara culture and all that jazz.

Their acts of violence against artists, movies etc. is unforgivable. The freedom of expression should be absolute. Any artist should be able to express his opinion, no matter how unpleasant it is. If it's seditious, libel or deliberately inflaming, it should be countered lawfully. I don't really like Hussain or his crap "f"art, but he has the right to create the art in any way he sees fit. How is BD any better than rabid mullahs who set fire to anything nearby when it comes to Mohammed ?

It's same with personal lives of people. If the people are drinking in pubs, buying stuff for each other from gift shops, they should be free to do so. If you're sure that there are jihadis trying to be Pakis, give them hell by all means. But the hooliganism that they engage in and the way they harass couples will never win them any admirers.

For most people I interact with BD = militant hooligan Hindoos = VHP = RSS = BJP.

This is why even intelligent people who don't like Congress wouldn't vote for BJP. If BJP wants to have a more inclusive and popular image to attract youngsters and fence sitters, the acts of hooliganism have to be stopped.
Sangh Parivar needs a major image makeover.

[vishvak]

Have to differ about freedom of expression clearly.

MFHussain miya had summons from the Supreme Court and he ran from it.

There was no Interpol notice to get him back and face court of law. The case was closed after his death.

So let's take this freedom of expression without selective bias.

Hindus have right to go to courts.

In short, how come BD are assumed as guilty party when case against MFHussain miya is closed? It is misplaced value judgement when case is closed and not taken to its logical conclusion; even Interpol was not issued red corner notice for absconder MFHussein miya.

Unless such people are made to face laws, such lopsided views can't be passed off with BD assumed as guilty party. It makes no sense.

[jamwal]

You have the answer in your post itself.
Hussain was sued in court and ran away. But when his gallery was attacked, all that happened was that Hindu groups were painted as terrorists and the old turd gained sympathy and fame. Which one is better ?

[Hari Seldon]

^^Right and the jaw-droppingly egregious CVB (Communal violence bill) is being pushed by psecs, sonia NAC and UPA... If this gets through, the Bajrang Dalis, VHP sadhus and practically all RSS pracharaks can be arrested for any BS that the psecs can engineer... E.g., in a shia-sunni clash also, under some 'majority clause of CVB', the bajrangis can be arrested only. Apparently.

Sure its OT I realise.. but let's stop pretending that all is hunky dory if only we yindoos worked through the system instead of letting loose hotheads etc...

[Yagnasri]

My gut feeling is bjp will take Delhi outright. Vote share predictions, seat predictions etc for aap was on downward swing for more than a month. Doc. Harshavardhan image and Modi meetings helped bjp. Even the normal Sheila didi voter also would be comfortable to vote to bjp than to aap.

[Yagnasri]

Bjp has good organisation, network and experience in election work. This is also good Advantage. Almost no pollster is factoring it.

[vishvak]

You have the answer in your post itself.
Hussain was sued in court and ran away. But when his gallery was attacked, all that happened was that Hindu groups were painted as terrorists and the old turd gained sympathy and fame. Which one is better ?

This is why taking Hussein miya to court is as important as taking such cases to logical conclusion.

Unless such a case is taken to logical conclusion no one can assume anyone guilty. So why assume anything when it was MFHussein miya running from court of law.

Point is not taking such cases to logical conclusion is more harmful than inaccurate image of BD/VHP when the image is built by someone else or even media.

Shouldn't media be explaining all this.

[kapilrdave]

This 'freedom of expression' debate has been beaten to death on all platforms so no point doing it once again here. No one is going to change their view on it. Some would not find anything wrong in it. But people like me (talibani types ) find it intolerable in any just world where only hindu gods are targeted and sick movies are deliberately screened just to make it controversial. I concede the point regarding the v-day antics of BD though. But understand that such people are different from us 'intellectuals'. They have their own solution to all problems. That's how they are. Not saying that they don't need improvement.

[vishvak]

Media created a lot of hoopla and drama to hide facts in MFHussein miya case.

Anyone will understand the issue when pointed out how MFHussain miya ran from summons from the Supreme Court and its meaning.

Interpol should have issued notice to bring back MFHussein miya and let him face court. Alas media didn't say a word about using Interpol notice.

That would have definitely helped cource of law and bringing it to logical conclusion.

[johneeG]

There is a saying in thelugu which means 'if the husband was there, what would be the need for the lover...' Basically, if the sarkaar was good than why would all these vigilante groups spring up?

The problem is not that the muscle is used. I think the problem is that there is no corresponding use of other means. I think the Hindhuthva guys should build up other means(without giving up the muscle part). Organize thinkfests in colleges, universities and offices and invite people to speak and debate. Organize fests to celebrate the indian culture where all people can participate and have fun(at the same time learn). Conceptualize replacements i.e. if you want to ban valentine's day, fine. But show the alternative... maybe a vasant panchami?

But, one has to understand that they are grappling with powerful forces. And the easiest way for them to get their agenda(of protecting indian culture from digestion or destruction) is through vandalism and force. Because competing with the ideological enemies in terms of money or men is very difficult specially when they are not even in power.

The whole 'freedom of thought' is just a myth. The reality is that the one who has the power(i.e the one in sarkaar) can enforce his agenda through sarkaari systems. They can brainwash people through 'education', radiamedia, and even the movies(by controlling their funds and all). They can enforce their laws through cops. What does the one out of power do against such policies? The easiest way is to go and show some 'protest'. But who are the guys who will do that? The suited booted ones? No, the 'rowdy' ones will do that and they come with their own tempers.

Obviously such behaviour will put off the 'sauve' and 'sophisticated' guys and gals. I think this is an age old problem. For example, Bhagath Singh, Azad and Bismil attacked the brits. What was the reaction of the 'sauve' and 'sophisticated' guys and gals to that? Most of them, perhaps, thought it was too 'rowdy'.

Some things have to be done to deter the enemy. But it is only a short-term immediate reaction. It cannot be a permanent solution. A more long term solution has to come through other means. Hindhuthva intellectuals have to sit down and debate things and come up with solutions. They have to capture power and then implement the solutions without being compromised.

Remember, some people are organizing slutmarch??? 'Right' to be a slut?? So, they want to turn indian women into sluts? And it is supposed to be a freedom? What about the freedom to protest against attempts to turn indian women into sluts? I am pretty sure most indian women would be against such things, but who will speak on their behalf? And those who do are seen as 'intolerant'? Is all this not brainwashing?

Ultimately, we are all brainwashed one way or the other. We are all taught to think in one way or the other. A regime has tools at its disposal to do that. Why is it 'freedom' to be able to drink alcohol? Why is not the same 'freedom' extended to other things like say pedophilia? Will a day come when some people will say that banning pedophilia is against the 'freedom'?

The whole issue is that the problem is too big to be tackled through small vigilante activities. But, something is better than nothing. The need is to come up with a more complete solution. It needs to be understood that there is an attempt to deracinate the people from their local cultures. Anyone opposed to these attempts get maligned in various ways.

----
PS: Personally, I think it causes inconvenience to people during valentine's day antics. But, I think there is a larger interest that is served, so my attitude is: hold the nose and tolerate.

[disha]

We do not have a thread to discuss Indian Bills (local, state or national) and since this CVB is targetted for national runup elections, bringing some discussion here.

First the news related to bill (from NitiCentral):

Communal Violence Bill provisions diluted, to be brought in Parliament
Niticentral Staff5 Dec 2013


Facing stiff Opposition from BJP and non-Congress States, the Centre has decided to drop several provisions from the controversial Communal Violence Bill.

The Centre’s move came even as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said on Thursday that the Government will try to evolve a ‘broad-based consensus’ on issues which are of ‘great legislative importance’ on a day when BJP’s Prime Ministerial candidate Narendra Modi dubbed the Bill as a ‘recipe for disaster’.

Union Home Minister Sushilkumar Shinde said the Government will bring the ‘Prevention of Communal and Targeted Violence (Access to Justice and Reparations) Bill, 2013′ in the current Winter session of Parliament.

Singh spoke of consensus as he sought the cooperation of all sections of Parliament to ensure smooth passage of the planned legislations like the Bills relating to communal violence and women’s reservation.

Government sources said the fresh initiative to amend the provisions of the draft Bill has been taken in the wake of criticism by BJP, West Bengal Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee and Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa.

The draft Bill is now made neutral between all groups or communities and the Central Government will not have any perceived overriding powers anywhere, souces said.

The earlier version of the Bill specifically mentioned that the onus of riots lay on the majority community.

Sources claimed the Bill is not hitting the federal structure of the country as feared and Central Government’s role will largely be of coordination and will act only when the State Government seeks help.

The fresh draft says, “if the State Government is of the opinion that assistance of the Central Government is required for controlling the communal violence, it may seek the assistance of the Central Government to deploy armed forces of the Union for such purposes…”

Earlier, the Centre was given unilateral powers to send Central Paramilitary forces during the outbreak of communal violence without consulting the state Government.

BJP has maintained it will oppose the legislation when it comes up for discussion in Parliament on the ground that it would be a “threat to India’s communal harmony.”

“Communal Violence Bill is ill-conceived, poorly drafted and a recipe for disaster,” Modi said in his letter to Singh.

“The timing to bring the Bill is suspicious owing to political considerations and vote bank politics, rather than genuine concerns,” he said.

(With inputs from agencies)

And discussion on the bolded parts:

1. Why does not the CongI govt. evolve consensus on bills with the opposition? Why introduce a half-baked controversial draft and then backtrack? Isn't that arrogance?

2. Now it is community neutral. That is good., though the corollary follows: what were they thinking? If they had not thought through the draft earlier, now even with all the amendments and modifications it will look like a duct tape on a chicken wire used to create a wall!

3. If the Center is going to play role of facilitator only when the State govt. asks for it., what is the need for the bill? Does not the current legislations already have that incl. the power to suspend a state govt.?

The CVB was in reaction to Godhra, Guj. only and in that case the Indian army was deployed in A'dbad within a day or two. So what new things does this legislation bring? Can it force states like MP/Mah to help deploy additional constabulary to the state government? If not, then even a watered down legislation is useless.

[nachiket]

The fresh draft says, “if the State Government is of the opinion that assistance of the Central Government is required for controlling the communal violence, it may seek the assistance of the Central Government to deploy armed forces of the Union for such purposes…”

But Army assistance can and is requested (and granted) even now. So what is the need for a new law?

2. Now it is community neutral. That is good.,

So they say. Need to have a look at the actual language used and if it is conducive to "multiple interpretations".

[nachiket]

Someone from the BJP needs to make a speech in Parliament focused solely on the exclusion of J&K from the CV Bill. That is the state where minorities have suffered far worse than in any other state in India. We here know why it is excluded of course, but one of the MP's needs to attack this viciously in the LS.

[RajeshA]

Someone from the BJP needs to make a speech in Parliament focused solely on the exclusion of J&K from the CV Bill. That is the state where minorities have suffered far worse than in any other state in India. We here know why it is excluded of course, but one of the MP's needs to attack this viciously in the LS.

I think Modi wants to attack Article 370 not on the basis of Hindu-Muslim.

BTW does J&K already have the Food Security Bill passed in their assembly?