Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

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Gus
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Gus »

disha wrote:One does not have to *kick USG where it hurts*. The very fact that Modi becomes PM will hurt USG in the right places. Just right now the US HC went to Guj. did not get an audience with CM and was doing ribbon cutting in a muslim school. Same situation when Vajpayee sent the Aus. HC to visit Appu Ghar and not grant an audience. Or the same situation where Jaswant Singh met a chineese delegation and announced Flight to China via Vietnam.

The point is paraphrasing somebody - diplomacy is war sans weapons.
'kicking the US where it hurts' is not in not granting audience to medium/low level admin types. these won't even register as a prick.

modi has so far done the right thing by completely ignoring this issue and not using it to project a anti-US imperialism type image like chavez etc.

when two big guys run into each other, they test each others strengths and get into accommodation/negotiation mode. not keep spitting at each other in turns for h&d spite. we are in no position to needlessly make enemies. we have enough as is.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

a japan,s-korea,taiwan towards east and israel, france, russia towards west on bonding for mil specific needs... will make earth shatter on such news... especially in deep collaborations, all orchestrated via indic controls and management.

all these kick talks will just show our maturity.. just do it! nike ishtyle.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Gus wrote:'kicking the US where it hurts' is not in not granting audience to medium/low level admin types. these won't even register as a prick.

modi has so far done the right thing by completely ignoring this issue and not using it to project a anti-US imperialism type image like chavez etc.

when two big guys run into each other, they test each others strengths and get into accommodation/negotiation mode. not keep spitting at each other in turns for h&d spite. we are in no position to needlessly make enemies. we have enough as is.
This is true. But a formal apology needs to be extracted from the USA for their deed, however they may wish to explain it off. Any improvement in relations can only follow if USA agrees to silently accept an India-wide law against conversion.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by nachiket »

sunnyP wrote:

Wonder why the opposition and English media houses/Burka Dutt types love Sushma so much?
They are just trying to drive a wedge in the BJP. SS herself is unruffled and seems firmly committed to Modi. Unfortunately, some BJP supporters are falling for it hook line and sinker.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vivek.rao »

Neela wrote:IF Modi comes to power, may be the first big-clouted country he visits will signal the general alignment . MMS was off to USA ( & 8 times after that ) in Nov(?) 2004 after getting elected in May 2004.
Actually he should not send an invitation to US delegation for swearing in and keep ignore them until they fall in line
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by disha »

Thanks for linking the India Ink article on Modi Visa.

I am reproducing in full below, because there are several nuggets that need to be highlighted.

But before that, a background on Zahir JanMohammed. This guy runs a shadowy NGO that on paper fights for minority rights, but in reality it pays this guys bills in LA and Ahmedabad and also allows him to rub shoulders with "elites".

And this guy was in news during Guj. Elections. When Modi claimed there is 24x7 electricity, he claimed that there is none - particularly his locality did not have electricity (of course in high falutin english) and hence "Blow to Modi". It turns out, his apartment indeed did not have electricity and it was a "technical" reason (the other reasons cited was non-payment of bills). And he did retract like A. Roy did regarding the baby killing meme.

Anyway, do not get surprised if the writer turns out to be on ISI payroll - he has quite a following in baki newspapers. Now he is working on a book.

Back to his article - somethings are bolded

India Ink - Notes on the World's Largest Democracy
December 5, 2013, 6:27 am 1 Comment
U.S. Evangelicals, Indian Expats Teamed Up to Push Through Modi Visa Ban
By ZAHIR JANMOHAMED

In March 2005, the United States denied a visa to Gujarat’s chief minister, Narendra Modi, now the Bharatiya Janata Party’s prime ministerial candidate in next year’s Indian elections. The visa was denied because of Mr. Modi’s alleged role in the 2002 riots in Gujarat that left more than 1,000 dead, most of them Muslims. But it came about from a highly unusual coalition made up of Indian-born activists, evangelical Christians, Jewish leaders and Republican members of Congress concerned about religious freedom around the globe.

I had a front-row seat to these events as they unfolded. I worked in Washington. D.C., from 2003 to 2011, mostly at Amnesty International and in the United States Congress, and I was a part of the campaign to deny Mr. Modi a visa.

In 1996, Nina Shea, the director of the Center for Religious Freedom at the Hudson Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington, organized a summit sponsored by the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group that represents 42,000 Evangelical Churches. At the conclusion of the event, the delegates pledged their collective efforts to “take appropriate action to combat the intolerable religious persecution now victimizing fellow believers and those of other faiths.”

The timing was perfect. Two years earlier, Republicans had taken a majority of seats in the House of Representatives for the first time since 1952, and the new batch of Republican Congress members were eager to see that protection of Christians be a central part of United States foreign policy.

The result was the International Religious Freedom Act, which Representative Frank Wolf, a Republican from Virginia, introduced in March 1998 to wide, bipartisan support.

Though Mr. Wolf’s original vision called for sanctions on countries that violated religious freedom, that idea ran into resistance from corporations that worked in countries like Saudi Arabia and Nigeria.

In the new piece of legislation, most of the language on sanctions was dumped. However, one clause would carry over and would later prove fateful to Mr. Modi. Section 604 of the new legislation read: “Any alien who, while serving as a foreign official, was responsible or directly carried out, at any time during the preceding 24-month period, particularly severe violations of religious freedom, as defined in Section 3 of the International Religious Freedom Act 1998 and the spouse and children, if any, are inadmissible.”

Soon after the passage of the law, the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, a government-funded agency, was created. Many of the initial commissioners had strong evangelical leanings, but when Felice D. Gaer, the director of the American Jewish Committee’s human rights program, was selected as a commissioner in 2001, she decided to widen the panel’s scope to other religions.

“I wanted to turn this around, to make our focus broader,” Ms. Gaer said in an interview. This chance came in February 2002 when she learned about the riots in Gujarat, India. “We learned about the riots in real time. We had people on staff who kept telling us we need to do something,” Ms. Gaer said.

Ms. Gaer tried to arrange an official commission trip to India to survey the damage caused by the 2002 riots but was denied permission to enter India.


Instead, the commission decided to hold a hearing in Washington in June 2002. Ms. Gaer was “shocked” by the findings at the hearing. “I can’t forget what I heard that day,” Ms. Gaer said.

{Disha: A.Roy's baby killing story "shocked" Ms. Gaer!}

In the fall of 2002, an Indian-born, Washington-based evangelical Christian named John Prabhudoss led a delegation to riot-affected Ahmedabad that included two Republican congressmen, Joe Pitts of Pennsylvania and Mr. Wolf. Another person on the trip was Raju Rajagopal, an Indian-born retired health professional based in Berkeley, Calif.

“It was unimaginable what we saw in Gujarat,” Mr. Rajagopal said. “People in Gujarat told us that Indian Americans were sending loads of money to groups like the R.S.S. and the V.H.P.” that, he argued, had a role in fueling the violence, Mr. Rajagopal said. He was referring to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, two Hindu nationalist groups founded in 1925 and 1964, respectively.

In a report on violence against women during the 2002 Gujarat riots, written by a collection of Gujarat-based nongovernmental organizations known as Citizen Initiative, the authors found that the violence followed “an escalation of tension and build-up by the V.H.P. and the Bajrang Dal,” another Hindu nationalist group.

In a report in 2002, Human Rights Watch described a letter, bearing the name and logo of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, that called for an economic boycott of Muslims in Gujarat, creating a climate of fear. However, Human Rights Watch acknowledged that the letter could not be traced and that the Vishwa Hindu Parishad denied authorship.

When Mr. Rajagopal returned to California, he began to campaign against the American support for Hindu nationalist groups in India like the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad. He co-wrote a 91-page report that alleged that the India Development and Relief Fund, which was based in the United States, had collected $4 million and sent some of the funds to right-wing Hindu groups.

Soon after the release of the report, Silicon Valley companies with large numbers of Indian-American employees promised to either stop or suspend donor matching programs with the fund.


{Disha: Practically IDRF was shut down. They had started the Ekal Vidyalayas in Dangs and Odisha, this was hurting the evangelicals big time}

“It was a tremendous victory and it gave us momentum to keep fighting,” Mr. Rajagopal said.

The report also did something else — it created a network of activists across the United States who could be quickly mobilized when they learned of Mr. Modi’s planned visit to the country in 2005.

“When we heard about Modi’s visit, we were ready,” Mr. Rajagopal said. “Actually, we had been ready and waiting for Modi’s visit for a few years.”

{Disha: At this stage the narratives focus changes from Rajgopal to PrabhuDoss. Basically, RajGopal was the token Hindu who was used as a condom}

In early 2005, Mr. Prabhudoss learned that the Asian American Hotel Owners Association was sponsoring a conference in south Florida in late March 2005 and had invited then-Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida, the TV talk show host Chris Matthews and Mr. Modi. The association was created in 1989 as a trade group for hotel owners in the United States, and today there are 10,000 members representing 22,000 hotels. The group’s chairman, Nash Patel, said at the time that 98 percent of the group’s members had roots in Gujarat.

Soon after Mr. Modi’s United States visit was announced, 41 South Asian groups across the country came together to form the Coalition Against Genocide. On Feb. 24, 2005, a letter organized by the group was signed by over 100 professors and sent to the hotel association, asking them to rescind Mr. Modi’s invitation. Another pressure group flooded Mr. Matthews with letters.

On March 8, 2005, Mr. Matthews backed out of the conference for “scheduling reasons.” On March 15, Amnesty International said it had written a letter to American Express asking it to withdraw its sponsorship of the conference.

Mr. Prabhudoss focused on Washington. “If this was going to work, we had to make a legal and not a political argument as to why the United States should deny a visa to Modi,” he said. He zeroed in on the International Religious Freedom Act of 1998, which stipulates that no person who has violated religious freedom could enter the country.

He knew he could count on Mr. Pitts, the Republican lawmaker who accompanied him on a visit to Gujarat in 2002, but he had a tough time convincing Democrats to block Mr. Modi’s visa.

“We needed a Democrat so the White House could say there is bipartisan support against Modi,” Mr. Prabhudoss said. He hired two professional Democratic lobbyists to assist him with his efforts, for an amount Mr. Prabhudoss declined to disclose.

Mr. Prabhudoss found an ally in John Conyers Jr., a Democrat from Michigan who is the longest serving African-American member of Congress and has a large Arab and Muslim constituency.

On March 16, 2005, House Resolution 160 was introduced in Congress, condemning Mr. Modi “for his actions to incite religious persecution.” On March 18, the State Department denied Mr. Modi a visa. Three days later, the United States ambassador to India, David C. Mulford, said, “This decision applies to Mr. Narendra Modi only. It is based on the fact that, as head of the state government in Gujarat between February 2002 and May 2002, he was responsible for the performance of state institutions at that time.”

Mr. Modi called the visa denial in 2005 “an attack on Indian sovereignty” and raised the question, “Will India also consider what America has done in Iraq when it processes visa applications of Americans coming to India?”

{Disha: And all Sonia-Mohan duo could do was say #TheekHai! }

Despite the success in denying Mr. Modi a United States visa, disillusionment quickly set in for Mr. Rajagopal, the retired California businessman who accompanied Mr. Prabhudoss to Gujarat in 2002.

“The frustrating thing was that the visa denial was probably the only thing really dealt a blow to Modi,” he said. “I just wish it had been brought about by a large, secular coalition. I am not so sure that is true. The thing that made a difference was the right-wing evangelical support.”


{Disha: Rajgopal now understands that he was in bambaiyaa parlance- "Pappu banaya gaya"}

Mr. Prabhudoss acknowledged that evangelical support played a big part but said that Mr. Modi was denied a visa for other reasons as well.

{Disha: Other than evangelical support what are the other reasons? Like no opposition from the Indian lobby?}

“Back then, we were working without any opposition. It was incredible, really,” Mr. Prabhudoss said. “The Modi supporters were there, but they sat that one out. And back then, the Indian lobby was not powerful like they are today. You could speak against Modi and there were no political consequences. Today, it is a completely different story.”

Joseph Grieboski, the founder of the Institute on Religion and Public Policy in Virginia, who also was deeply involved in trying to block Mr. Modi’s visit, said that the mood has shifted now.

“When the U.S. denied Mr. Modi a visa in 2005, it was like the U.S. denying a visa to the governor of Iowa — no offense to Gujarat,” he said. “The U.S. did not see it as a big deal. And back then, it seemed clear to everyone in this town that Modi was involved in the riots. Now the picture is fuzzier, and many are intrigued by Modi.”

{Disha: In other words, it has become a big deal now and we made mistake in castigating Modi and now we are interested in Modi. I do have to admire the English that flows nonchalantly though!}

But the American government’s stance on Mr. Modi remains the same. Two days after Mr. Modi was selected on Sept. 13, 2013 as the official prime ministerial candidate to represent the B.J.P., the United States government reiterated its policy on Mr. Modi’s visa.

“There’s no change in our longstanding visa policy,” said Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman. “He is welcome to apply for a visa and await a review like any other applicant.”

{Disha: There is another saying - "falling down but the ass is still high, see the ass did not hit the floor!" - A prime ministerial, 4 time CM of the largest democracy on Earth has to *apply* for your visa and *await* review like "any other applicant" - there the SD decried!}

These days, however, religious freedom is no longer a foreign policy priority in Washington, and the strong evangelical Christian opposition to Mr. Modi has faded.

While Republicans led the opposition to Mr. Modi’s visa in 2005, there are now Republicans among Mr. Modi’s strongest supporters. When the Tea Party candidate Joe Walsh campaigned in Illinois for Congress, he promised he would push the United States to grant Mr. Modi a visa. (He lost to his Democratic challenger, Tammy Duckworth.)

In March, three Republicans members of Congress visited Mr. Modi in Gujarat, including Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington state. The trip for Ms. McMorris Rodgers and her husband cost $15,000 and was paid for by the co-founder of the National Indian American Public Policy Institute, Shalli Kumar, a supporter of Mr. Modi based in Chicago.

But the opposition to Mr. Modi continues to be led by Republicans as well, in particular by Mr. Pitts and Mr. Wolf. In November, Mr. Pitts introduced House Resolution 417, which urges the United States government to continue to deny Mr. Modi a visa. Notably, the resolution has 28 co-sponsors, the majority of them Democrats.

The resolution is not expected to pass, partly because India is not seen as a priority in American foreign policy at the moment. When I conducted research in Washington this summer, many House and Senate aides said they had no idea who Mr. Modi was. Those who did know told me they would make up their minds about Mr. Modi when next year’s elections in India are decided.

{Disha: Another sleight of hands by Zahir BeJan'walla', first the new resolution is not expected to pass - so this guy is disheartened (having made a career out if it, of course) and he says that is because India is not seen as a priority in American foreign policy - if that is the case, why the resolution in first place and why now?}

Despite his rising profile in India, there is still little interest in Mr. Modi in Washington. This may be a harder pill for Mr. Modi to swallow: It is not that he is hated or loved in Washington; he is just not mentioned much.

{Disha: Uh - who is asking Zahir Bejan'wala' to write this and did Modi apply for visa? It is the reverse, nobody is interested in your sob story and everybody now knows that they have been "pappufied"! More below}

What has shifted, however, is that the Indian lobby is much more powerful today than it previously was. “There is no Modi lobby,” said a former colleague of mine from Amnesty International, who asked not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the matter. “There is an Indian lobby, and they do not want to hear any criticism of India, whether it be on the Delhi rape case or on the Modi issue. They just want to hear good things about India.”

{Disha: Basically AI has been told to go and shove up themselves where the sun does not shine. Everytime they bring up "human rights violation"., their napunsakta in Iraq, Afgh., Syria, Libya etc is shown to them}

Others I spoke with, especially Indian Americans in the United States government, said they are anxious to see how the issue plays out.

One of them, who was appointed to a senior position by President Obama, agreed to meet me at a cafe in Washington but asked to remain anonymous because this official was not authorized to speak to the media.

“I know it is a cliché,” the official said, “but our talking point on India has always been, ‘India and the U.S. are both democracies that share the same values.’ You cannot really apply that statement to Modi. If Modi becomes prime minister, I guess we will have to come up with something new to say.”

{Disha: This is where US realized that it has been "#pappufied" by the snake-oil salesman like Zahir bejanwalah. So much that nobody wants to meet the bejanwallah. At this stage US-SD is looking for an exit strategy}

Zahir Janmohamed, a writer from the United States, lives in Ahmedabad.
My take, if Modi will become PM, he *will* grant an exit strategy to US. And as part of "honorable exit strategy for US"., what India will take behind the scenes - remain to be seen.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by BijuShet »

vivek.rao wrote:
Neela wrote:IF Modi comes to power, may be the first big-clouted country he visits will signal the general alignment . MMS was off to USA ( & 8 times after that ) in Nov(?) 2004 after getting elected in May 2004.
Actually he should not send an invitation to US delegation for swearing in and keep ignore them until they fall in line
People, 2014 elections are still some time away. Better to wait for the hot kichdi than keep discussing the aroma and taste of the khayali pulav. This is a humble request from a Bhajapa supporter onlee...
harbans
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by harbans »

Modi's first foreign visits should be as follows:

1. HH The Dalai Lama (on the 1st day in Office)
2. Bhutan
3. Nepal
4. The Kingdom of Thailand.
5. Myanmar
6. Japan

Need to stress on a Dharmic federation.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vivek.rao »

nachiket wrote: They are just trying to drive a wedge in the BJP. SS herself is unruffled and seems firmly committed to Modi. Unfortunately, some BJP supporters are falling for it hook line and sinker.
If you see Swaraj's interviews with Barkha Dutt where she kind of validates all shots taken by Libtard media against Modi, she is a problem too. She agrees with everything they say against him. Modi and other leaders never ever take a shot at SS or Advani or anyone in the party in the media. Look at how Ms. Irani or Ms.Lekhi and how they handle the media and take apart any criticism against Modi or BJP.

When you know how media types like Barkha are arrayed against BJP and specifically Modi and how they tried to play Advani against Modi inspite of how much they detest Advani, what is the need to talk to them and kind of support their snipe attacks on Modi specifically and BJP in general?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vivek.rao »

BijuShet wrote:
vivek.rao wrote:
Actually he should not send an invitation to US delegation for swearing in and keep ignore them until they fall in line
People, 2014 elections are still some time away. Better to wait for the hot kichdi than keep discussing the aroma and taste of the khayali pulav. This is a humble request from a Bhajapa supporter onlee...
Agreed. Just hypothetical idea. Not counting chickens before they hatch
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Folks - this SS bashing is simply getting ridiculous at times. SS has been campaigning tirelessly for the BJP in the last month in Delhi from what my BJP sources tell me. She has addressed 100+ gatherings, and she is doing everything she can to get BJP to win. I am the first to grant that she does not connect well with the cadres, and she has no mass base, but from there to turning her into some kind of Congress mole, out to do a suicide attack on NaMo is silly, IMHO. Within her powers, she has been campaigning with everything she has got in Delhi.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

nageshks wrote:Folks - this SS bashing is simply getting ridiculous at times. SS has been campaigning tirelessly for the BJP in the last month in Delhi from what my BJP sources tell me. She has addressed 100+ gatherings, and she is doing everything she can to get BJP to win. I am the first to grant that she does not connect well with the cadres, and she has no mass base, but from there to turning her into some kind of Congress mole, out to do a suicide attack on NaMo is silly, IMHO. Within her powers, she has been campaigning with everything she has got in Delhi.
She is campaigning to secure her own future in the post 2014 BJP and NDA government.

The thing we should understand is that she is also a politician and wanted to run for the PM. She has every right to aspire. She has every right to play politics.

However it is still to be seen that she would willfully damage the electoral prospects of BJP or cause harm to it in some way. There are theories, but she is a part of BJP and she should get her share.

She is slowly learning that she would have to fight under the leadership of Narendra Modi, but time needs to be given to her to adjust and bring down her own immediate ambitions.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by disha »

Gus wrote: 'kicking the US where it hurts' is not in not granting audience to medium/low level admin types. these won't even register as a prick.

modi has so far done the right thing by completely ignoring this issue and not using it to project a anti-US imperialism type image like chavez etc.
Gus'Ji, ignoring the biggest bully in the room in big bully conference hurts the ego of the biggest bully - it is a "diplomatic" kick right where it hurts. :D

US Ambassador to India (or even its Charge'de affairs) is not a "low level admin type". And remember Modi is not yet a PM, officially he is a CM (and only recently the PM Candidate). Of course there will be dancing, twisting and shadow-boxing - but never did I say (and nobody should anybody construe) that Modi will indulge in shrill anti-americanism ala Ahemdjinad or Castro. Modi is way too smart.

My expectation is that US will pay and they will not even know that they have been made to pay!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

I think Modi should ignore US, and make them running to beg him for large industrial projects... heck who is the seeker now?.. imho, kicking should be at the end, before sucking them up... real slow treatment... and that tears their rear apart very slowly... and no laxatives for massans after that and their $h!t can drop without any efforts.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by sudarshan »

Ah yes, shrill anti-americanism of the Ahmedinejad or Castro variety would be a godsend to the US. They could then proceed to do what they do best - demonization.

What really gives the US jeebies is somebody like PVNR. Quiet and restrained, but ruthless behind the scenes. Or even ABV and his stunning surprise - the nuke tests. Or Indira Gandhi in dealing with the 1971 situation.

No overt hostility is needed. Just quietly dismantle the network that the US has built up in southern Asia. Revenge is not just best served cold, it is also best served with a smiling face and protestations of friendship.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rudradev »

Neela wrote:IF Modi comes to power, may be the first big-clouted country he visits will signal the general alignment . MMS was off to USA ( & 8 times after that ) in Nov(?) 2004 after getting elected in May 2004.
NaMo should first visit Tokyo, then Beijing, then Seoul, then Moscow.

Second tier, Tel-Aviv, Teheran and Kabul.

Note that PRC has always been very welcoming of NaMo. This is in spite of all the noise, fury and bitter tears that were surely directed at them by their Paki rakhail over his 2011 visit. (You can only imagine how much takleef must have been expressed behind closed doors).

PRC sees NaMo as good for business, independent of US/Western influence (unlike the INC and other Indian "centre-leftists" who are actually the long brown arm of the Western colonial project), hard headed and sensible. Given that the resurgence of Taliban in Afghanistan will almost certainly impact its Uighur problems, Beijing will also want to hedge its bets against the tallel-deepel fliend going rogue Islamist, or veering towards a more committed alliance with the US after Af-Pak withdrawal.

PRC knows NaMo will never compromise on Indian territorial integrity, but also that he won't unnecessarily provoke a conflict with China that could have economic repercussions, or be any part of an aggressive US-led "alliance to contain China." Pragmatists in the Zhongnanhai will themselves realize that NaMo is not to be f***ed around with in terms of provocative border incursions (like Manmohan Singh/Salman Khurshid clearly are). I strongly believe that if NaMo comes to power, all that naatak-baazi of incursions in Ladakh and Arunachal Pradesh will come to a stop-- because anything like that, even on a small scale, will draw forceful repercussions and the Chinese know it. The Chinese value NaMo as a strong leader of India to have on their side, and will not want to test him with such things.

Yet, PRC should get the message not to take anything for granted. So, Tokyo first- before Beijing.

Seoul because of the very sizeable extent to which the confluence of Indo-SoKo economic interests has burgeoned over the last two decades. For many years now, international surveys have shown that Koreans have one of the highest percentages for a "positive view of India" anywhere in the world. ROK needs recognition at the topmost level as a partner and potential ally of India in its own right, not just a side-player in the East Asian region.

Moscow because I think NaMo and Putin will understand each other much better than any other leader of India since PVNR-- Vajpayee included-- could have understood Putin. A personal equation between these leaders will go a long way towards re-establishing the trust underpinning our oldest and strongest international alliance.

Tel-Aviv because it's about f***ing time an Indian PM went there. And again, there are many aspects of cooperation in trade, commerce and strategic security that should be finalized and addressed at the summit level.

Teheran because it's time to correct the serious imbalance introduced by the MMS Misgovernment in our foreign policy, where Iran was ditched in the UNSC nuclear proliferation vote despite its former support for India over Kashmir and Afghanistan. Meanwhile, MMS tirelessly wooed the Saudis, Kuwaitis, UAE and other GCC countries (who have lavishly funded every project inimical to India, from Kerala madrassas to the Pakistan nuclear program) at Iran's expense. A NaMo visit to Teheran could bring in a course-correction that is direly needed given the uncertainty of what might happen next in AfPak.

Kabul, only if Karzai is still around. Here NaMo should sign an agreement to deliver the Afghan armed forces everything from Dhruvs to LCAs to Prithvi missiles in order to defend Afghanistan from the expansionist vermin to their south. He should offer three-four divisions' strength of Indian military "advisers" to train their air force, missile forces, artillery units and special forces. These will be maintained via a tripartite deal to resurrect and firm up the Chahbahar-Zaranj-Delaram supply route with Iranian cooperation.

Subsequent state visits could include neighcouring countries, SE Asian countries, African states and Latin America, particularly Brazil.

No Europe. No USA. No Australia. Their leaders can come to Delhi if they want to see NaMo. Otherwise, his functionaries and appointed officials are quite capable of transacting any business that's required.
Last edited by Rudradev on 05 Dec 2013 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vivek.rao »

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 1205.htm#1
Politically, there was a thaw in relations when the BJP was in power under Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Also trade was better and policies were pro-Pakistan then. Having the BJP at the helm in India could be better for South Asian economics. Since we see Narendra Modi as pro-development we are hoping that it will help business across both borders,” said Hashwani of the Hashoo group.

With the value of Indo-Pak trade at just $2.5 billion, focusing on trade relations seems to top the list of expectations.

"The Congress has been cold in its approach towards business. If the BJP comes into power, they may take decisions that could give trade an impetus," said M Y Siddik, chairman of the All Pakistan Textile Mills Association.
However, Herald magazine Editor Muhammad Badar Alam had a different take on the issue.

“Modi coming to power will be a setback to the SAARC spirit because we know what extremists can do :D . We don’t know if Modi will be as good as Vajpayee. We would like a secular party to come into power. :D But whoever comes into power in Delhi should know how to carry forward the peace initiative. They need to sustain relations on peace, this hostility needs to end. We would like a secular party be brought into power.
This is how our PM/CONGis and their sickular reporters dealt with Pakis. We need to end the hostilities. They will decide who people of India should elect. We have to work towards peace while they continue their terrorism against us.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Prem »

Rudradev wrote:[Subsequent state visits could include African states and Latin America, particularly Brazil.No Europe. No USA. No Australia. Their leaders can come to Delhi if they want to see NaMo. Otherwise, his functionaries and appointed officials are quite capable of transacting any business that's required.
Keep Friends close and enemy closer.I am sure Modi knows this Million times better than us Loudakshaks with Himayan High Mastak.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by rajithn »

It is heartening to read all of the comments about how NaMo should 'treat' the U.S. But aren't we over-reaching ourselves? I believe we should not get the hubris of the exit polls get the better of us. Forgive me and I don't mean to be presumptuous but we have a long way and much hard work to get from here to May 2014.

Surely, there will be a lot of realpolitik at play when NaMo takes up his rightful place in New Delhi. And there will be some actions, such as the ones that need to be taken w.r.t Khan, that will need to wait a while. There are tonnes of domestic stuff that need to be taken care of: the internal rot in the polity, dismantling the CONgi ecosystem (my personal opinion is that this needs to be completed with all haste), the economy etc. It won't do to go poke at the hornets nest while we have these issues to sort out once and for all. From a geopolitical perspective I would assume that it is better to sort the house first, then sort out the immediate neighbourhood and then tackle the likes of Khan, the EU.

A concentric circle of priorities, so to speak.

Power talks. And when the Khans, their pet stooges across the pond and the broader EU see that they are dealing with a man with one big set of b**lls, they will fall over themselves, give themselves a way out and get all smoochy-woochy.

P.S: Irrespective of whether I am bajpa supporter or a Hindu Nationalist, I just admire the grit of this man. Not many will have the good fortune of seeing someone like him in their lifetimes. I have been keenly following how he has handled all that has been thrown at him since 2002. Master strategist! (And I believe I glowed when I read Chetan Bhagat''s tweet or observation about him: "This is Modi's assignment for the week. Everybody submit their essay in clean, legible handwriting". He sets the agenda each week and everyone else is busy debating it while he has moved on to the next…not one person has realised that while they are trying their best to respond, he's putting together the next debate topic! This, ladies and gentlemen, is C.L.A.S.S)
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vivek.rao »

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/colum ... 131205.htm
State polls: Advantage BJP, but it is not a Modi wave

Seema Mustafa
Despite his whirlwind, highly publicised campaigns across the states, he has not been able to generate a wave where all else is vanquished, as clearly the BJP was hoping for.

The contests remain real and fairly tough in states like Delhi and Chhattisgarh, with the Congress registering a mark even in Madhya Pradesh where the BJP seems to be ahead. It is also clear that the state leadership counts for a great deal, and if the voters stay with the BJP in MP it will be largely of the work done by Chief Minister Shivraj Singh Chouhan there.

In Rajasthan, the vote seems to be favouring the BJP's Vasundhara Raje who by all accounts has been camping there, and working hard to swing the tide against incumbent Ashok Gehlot. Modi might have been an add on, but certainly not the vote swinger in these states.

This becomes apparent when the answer to the question: Would the BJP have secured Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan without Modi, becomes a 'yes'.

More so because of the inability of the Congress to provide an effective opposition in the five years of BJP rule in Madhya Pradesh, and the party's failure to provide good governance in Rajasthan.

Chhattisgarh seemed at one stage to be favouring the Congress, according to reports from journalists who had actually travelled in the state. The neck to neck battle is registered by the exit polls and even if the BJP carries the day at the end, a close fight will again stand testimony to the fact that Modi was not able to generate a wave in the party's favour in this state as well.

The voters are now too seasoned to be enthused by magic wands, and clearly cast the vote with considerable thought and consideration. If the contest is as close as predicted, it can go either way when the results come out.

Delhi became the most interesting battlefield in these polls, simply because it broke away for the first time since its inception as a state from the Congress versus BJP pattern.

The emergence of the Aam Aadmi Party has been particularly significant for a city that has always decried third alternatives, with the middle and upper-class actually rooting for a two party system at the Centre.

The scepticism with which Arvind Kejriwal and his rag-tag band of supporters were regarded by the city seemed to turn into overwhelming support as polling day approached. The BJP and the Congress, that were dismissive of the new party, started taking it seriously when it became apparent that it was eating into both their votes.

The slum dwellers moved away from the Congress towards the AAP while the youth embraced the new party with visible enthusiasm.

This became a groundswell on the day before polling, making it clear that the party was going to be a major factor in the polls as the support had increased, and not shifted as many had expected.

The party may or may not win elections, but if it gets a sizeable share of the seats as seems more than likely, it will carry several messages.

One, middle-class Delhi is looking at change and governance, and is fed up with both the Congress and the BJP despite their 'stability' appeal.

Two, there is a mood even amongst the more exclusive middle-class to give a third party a chance.

Three, Modi might have to re-think his strategy as clearly he has been unable to generate a wave in what he regarded as his key constituency, the middle-class.

Four, there is undeclared zero tolerance for corruption within the electorate that is fed up with price rise and non-governance.

And last, if Delhi fails to be moved by its two favourite political parties like the BJP and the Congress, the future of these two in states with more efficient regional parties remains under a big question mark.
Well... Folks... it is all credit of BJP CMs if they win. If they lose, blame Modi. If they win, he has no effect anyway.

The Libtards have their strategy for Dec 8. If BJP losese or can't win decisively, make AAP a big huge deal and keep playing the game against Modi.

Hope Delhi delivers it to BJP decisively
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by KLP Dubey »

Rudradev wrote:NaMo should first visit Tokyo, then Beijing, then Seoul, then Moscow.

Second tier, Tel-Aviv, Teheran and Kabul.

Subsequent state visits could include neighcouring countries, SE Asian countries, African states and Latin America, particularly Brazil.

No Europe. No USA. No Australia. Their leaders can come to Delhi if they want to see NaMo. Otherwise, his functionaries and appointed officials are quite capable of transacting any business that's required.
Excellent post. Also Mr. Modi must play the hard-headed game of pitting these people against each other.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by rajithn »

Rudradev wrote:NaMo should first visit Tokyo, then Beijing, then Seoul, then Moscow.
Second tier, Tel-Aviv, Teheran and Kabul.
<SNIP>
No Europe. No USA. No Australia. Their leaders can come to Delhi if they want to see NaMo. Otherwise, his functionaries and appointed officials are quite capable of transacting any business that's required.
+1. Though I am not sure about Japan. Their current state and projected future state will keep them under Khan's thumbs. So a NaMo version of the "Asian Pivot" (whoever thinks up of these terms in the U.S!!) with Japan in mind will have huge limitations in terms of dependability and sustainability.

So to send the subtle message to Beijing, wouldn't visits to Taiwan and Vietnam followed by Moscow, Seoul and then Beijing be a better bet?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rudradev »

Jhujar wrote: Keep Friends close and enemy closer..
That is exactly why I believe NaMo should personally take charge of relations with PRC at a summit level!

When it comes to the US and European countries-- the investment climate NaMo generates in India will itself be enough to bring their MNCs beating a path to OUR door. The corporate lobbies in these countries will themselves become India's primary lever of influence there. Meanwhile, the deep-state apparatus in places like Washington and London are so completely, intrinsically biased against India that no amount of personal visiting and wooing by any Indian leader will charm them out of their positions. So, no use going and attending White House/ 10 Downing St. "state dinners" unless very special circumstances arise to demand NaMo's personal presence there. That sort of thing is only for MMS type performing-monkeys who want to elevate their profiles among the Dilli Billi chattering class.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by nachiket »

We are getting ahead of ourselves. The elections are four months away and the outcome is far from certain.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by rajithn »

Rudradev wrote:That is exactly why I believe NaMo should personally take charge of relations with PRC at a summit level!

When it comes to the US and European countries-- the investment climate NaMo generates in India will itself be enough to bring their MNCs beating a path to OUR door. The corporate lobbies in these countries will themselves become India's primary lever of influence there. Meanwhile, the deep-state apparatus in places like Washington and London are so completely, intrinsically biased against India that no amount of personal visiting and wooing by any Indian leader will charm them out of their positions. So, no use going and attending White House/ 10 Downing St. "state dinners" unless very special circumstances arise to demand NaMo's personal presence there. That sort of thing is only for MMS type performing-monkeys who want to elevate their profiles among the Dilli Billi chattering class.
+1 to the bolded part.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by devesh »

nageshks wrote:Folks - this SS bashing is simply getting ridiculous at times. SS has been campaigning tirelessly for the BJP in the last month in Delhi from what my BJP sources tell me. She has addressed 100+ gatherings, and she is doing everything she can to get BJP to win. I am the first to grant that she does not connect well with the cadres, and she has no mass base, but from there to turning her into some kind of Congress mole, out to do a suicide attack on NaMo is silly, IMHO. Within her powers, she has been campaigning with everything she has got in Delhi.

++1. Sushupti ji's constant D4 badgering has yielded a predictable result. except for Modi all others are sellouts and turncoats, including Shivraj Singh Chauhan.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rudradev »

rajithn wrote:
Rudradev wrote:NaMo should first visit Tokyo, then Beijing, then Seoul, then Moscow.
Second tier, Tel-Aviv, Teheran and Kabul.
<SNIP>
No Europe. No USA. No Australia. Their leaders can come to Delhi if they want to see NaMo. Otherwise, his functionaries and appointed officials are quite capable of transacting any business that's required.
+1. Though I am not sure about Japan. Their current state and projected future state will keep them under Khan's thumbs. So a NaMo version of the "Asian Pivot" (whoever thinks up of these terms in the U.S!!) with Japan in mind will have huge limitations in terms of dependability and sustainability.

So to send the subtle message to Beijing, wouldn't visits to Taiwan and Vietnam followed by Moscow, Seoul and then Beijing be a better bet?
I think a lot depends on whether the Shinzo Abe government remains in power. Abe has shown far stronger signs than any predecessor, of wanting to establish strategic (especially military/naval) independence from the US. The visit of NaMo to Tokyo would have enough cover, from the "economic cooperation" pretext, so as to not appear openly hostile towards Beijing as a first move-- but the underlying message would go through regardless.

Vietnam, I agree would be a great visit-- but I think a tour of SE Asian capitals is warranted in its own right, and should ideally have very strong *cultural* overtones that won't entirely be applicable to Northeast Asia. Taiwan-- I'm not so sure about, because the argument you have put forward for Japan (firmly under Khan's thumb) actually applies to them more than to Japan, at least at present-- and the open insult to Beijing implied by such a visit may not be appropriate at least at the very outset.
Last edited by Rudradev on 06 Dec 2013 00:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rudradev »

nachiket wrote:We are getting ahead of ourselves. The elections are four months away and the outcome is far from certain.
I know boss. But what are we going to do till counting on Sunday? :mrgreen:
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by rajithn »

Rudradev wrote: I think a lot depends on whether the Shinzo Abe government remains in power. Abe has shown far stronger signs than any predecessor, of wanting to establish strategic (especially military/naval) independence from the US. The visit of NaMo to Tokyo would have enough cover, from the "economic cooperation" pretext, so as to not appear openly hostile towards Beijing as a first move-- but the underlying message would go through regardless.

Vietnam, I agree would be a great visit-- but I think a tour of SE Asian capitals is warranted in its own right, and should ideally have very strong *cultural* overtones that won't entirely be applicable to Northeast Asia. Taiwan-- I'm not so sure about, because the argument you have put forward for Japan (firmly under Khan's thumb) actually applies to them more than to Japan, at least at present-- and the open insult to Beijing implied by such a visit may not be appropriate at least at the very outset.
But aren't there enough under-currents in the Taiwan - U.S relationship?

While I agree about Shinzo Abe's personal attributes, wouldn't you say there are larger risks with Japan's economy as well as their fast ageing population. My personal opinion is that their current position and the medium/long term projection would bring them even closer to the U.S fold for security interests.

Taiwan, again my personal opinion, riles that they have not been able to declare themselves a state. And that the U.S is pussy-futting around not wanting to upset China. I believe something's got to give here. Soon.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by devesh »

Rudradev wrote: No Europe. No USA. No Australia. Their leaders can come to Delhi if they want to see NaMo. Otherwise, his functionaries and appointed officials are quite capable of transacting any business that's required.
I disagree. it's time to put out independent voices to US, without the meddling of UK.

US should understand that they have other options in Afghanistan. India is willing to have "boots on ground" but only on its terms (Pakis will have to eat sh**).

in return, we are willing to guarantee access to CAR and PRC's soft underbelly. even if an agreement is not reached, it's time to create doubts in US minds whether their inherited UK agenda is perhaps past is sell-by date?

feelers need to be put out. a combination of Corporate, diplomatic, and political level "reaching out" that conveys that India is serious. and if US is willing to do more than lip-service, we can play this game.
Last edited by devesh on 06 Dec 2013 00:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vishvak »

NaMo could write a few open letters like Mahatma Gandhi only to media of USA UK Australia etc using international mail postage (yeah, snail-mail postbox version). After all the brutish invented international level snail-mail no?

This could be done anyway regardless of elections.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Lilo »

Re: Sushma track record

Some questions
With obvious answers with the benefit of retrospect.

When did Sushma ji last mouth the now obvious fact to 1 billion + that there is something rotten in 10 janpath ?
When did she last single Maino Mata to be at the root of the corruption rot ?

People were feeling correctly that lot of wink wink nod nod was happening b/w dilli bjp wallahs and congis when they saw Bhajapa tamely fold in the 2009 fight even before the fight began. Its the lowest point for bjp . And this was long before Sushupti ji ( or for that matter kanchan Gupta) started speaking about a D4.

Why did the main opposition party remain mum and infact abdicated its duty till 2011 so much that Anna hazare campaign along with its propped up marionettes hijacked the discontent wave sweeping the nation ?

Why was it that BJP central leadership always managed to look clueless for greater part of 10 years until a certain some one grabbed the reins by force and just ignored the perpetually decked up PMs and Deputy PMs in waiting in BJP central leadership?

As massa says it wrt bin laden affair
The __________ were either complicit or completely inept.
Last edited by Lilo on 06 Dec 2013 00:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by nachiket »

Modi does not need to make any special efforts to reach out to US or UK media. Despite Indian and foreign MSM's tireless efforts to paint him as a monster, it does not stop international (and Indian) businessmen from dealing with him and investing in Gujarat. If, he becomes the PM, US and any other government will be happy to do business with him, regardless of what the media says. There will suddenly be no problems giving him a Visa too, if at all he wants to go there.
Last edited by nachiket on 06 Dec 2013 00:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by member_19686 »

rajithn wrote:But aren't there enough under-currents in the Taiwan - U.S relationship?

While I agree about Shinzo Abe's personal attributes, wouldn't you say there are larger risks with Japan's economy as well as their fast ageing population. My personal opinion is that their current position and the medium/long term projection would bring them even closer to the U.S fold for security interests.

Taiwan, again my personal opinion, riles that they have not been able to declare themselves a state. And that the U.S is pussy-futting around not wanting to upset China. I believe something's got to give here. Soon.
Taiwan's birth rate is actually lower than Japan's IIRC (as is South Korea's), so even they will have the same problem very soon.

Plus Taiwan at the end of the day is Han & Chinese nationalists are even worse Han imperialists than commie-legalists on the mainland. We should improve our relations with Taiwan no doubt but keeping in mind this fact.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

vivek.rao wrote:Well... Folks... it is all credit of BJP CMs if they win. If they lose, blame Modi. If they win, he has no effect anyway.

The Libtards have their strategy for Dec 8. If BJP losese or can't win decisively, make AAP a big huge deal and keep playing the game against Modi.

Hope Delhi delivers it to BJP decisively
They can play this game. They have been playing this for a long time. The message would however reach the people who matter.
  1. Modi's position in BJP leadership circle would become unassailable.
  2. All BJP ranks would be fully recharged across the country.
  3. Various other political players in the country would be ready to make alliances with BJP and that too with BJP given a good hand at negotiations.
  4. The country too would gather around a rising star with the promise to put the system in order.
Even the secular chatteratti know that Modi has arrived, and Seema Mustafa's article is not going to subside their panic.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rudradev »

Rajithnji, Devesh ji and others: This is getting to be a very interesting discussion in its own right. I'm going to start a new thread in the Strat Forum, to discuss a possible renaissance of India's foreign policy options post May 2014. I think that will please the Mods more than continuing here.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Suraj »

rajithn wrote:But aren't there enough under-currents in the Taiwan - U.S relationship?

While I agree about Shinzo Abe's personal attributes, wouldn't you say there are larger risks with Japan's economy as well as their fast ageing population. My personal opinion is that their current position and the medium/long term projection would bring them even closer to the U.S fold for security interests.

Taiwan, again my personal opinion, riles that they have not been able to declare themselves a state. And that the U.S is pussy-futting around not wanting to upset China. I believe something's got to give here. Soon.
Semi-OT, but the problem with Taiwan is more complex than just not being able to declare their independence. Half of their political spectrum sees themselves as the rightful rulers of mainland, so they don't want to declare independence - they're in the classic 'green flag over Red Fort!' types ('Blue star over Tiananmen' for them) from their perspective. The other half of their spectrum is pro-independence.

Taiwan would like greater recognition from India. They already accord visa-free electronic travel authority based entry to Indians with certain entry criteria, something I've used before. Taipei feels like a less sanitized and policed version of Singapore or HK, and parts of it feel like you're in Delhi or Bombay. Indians are visible in the downtown financial district. I had a great time there. They lack the kind of wrongheaded view of Indians that mainlanders have thanks to the domestic propaganda those folks are raised on, as TSPians are. Longshan Temple in Taipei feels a lot like any Indian temple, and I saw at least half a dozen Indians in there too.

For Modi to initiate open diplomatic connections to them progressively, would be a massive boost to them. They know their position is weak because PRC has successfully bullied everyone not to grant them that recognition, and the only major power to maintain a quasi-official connection to them is the US.

Japanese connections depend on Abe's longevity. He's playing a delicate game at home, trying not to piss off the older voting base with his Abenomics, and depending on the growth it generates to pull them out of their funk. Would it work ? I don't know. But strong ties to Japan are very beneficial to India today, especially in the light of PRC's aggressively calculated efforts to impose themselves, even at the cost of overreaching, because they calculate that they can overreach and withdraw without much cost to them, as there's no unity in the opposing ranks. As a result, greater unity would help manage them.

The US, EU etc should be ignored until they extend the olive branch and bend backwards. They won't be openly hostile, but they will have to compensate for having acted stupidly in the past.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by KJo »

Gus wrote:people who post a lot of 'modi should do this..modi should do that' are in for a rude shock when he does gets to power.

he's most certainly not going to "kick USG where it hurts". :rotfl:
You know about what Modi will do as much as I do. :P
However, I am confident that he will not slobber before the gora like most of our other leaders.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by vishvak »

Interpreter personnel should be mandatory for visiting VIPs. That would make a point too unless slobbering before gora is considered a rule & prestigious and mandatory for leaders.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by harbans »

The Govt by pushing the CVB is hurting the sentiments of Dharmics. They will violate the CVB the moment they push it as law. Arrest the Govt. The Provisions of the bill state that the majority will be held guilty of hurting sentiments..so if the Hurt community (is a minority as they calim) and those that push the Bill are a majority (they need be to push it through)..then they are guilty of violating a CVB provision just the moment they push it into law..
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