Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 Dec 2013 13:20

Vietnam formally request India to supply BrahMos cruise missiles

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 04 Dec 2013 15:17

^^

Nice to know

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 06 Dec 2013 22:30

Astra carriage trials with Su-30 begins

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Dec 2013 05:57

Second piece of good news after arty gun clearing technical trials.
The Astra will be a good replacement of the R-77 in IAF.

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Dec 2013 07:31

Arty gun has not cleared trials. Army, user, Trials still have to start. Similarly, we will see about Astra, how will it delayed or killed?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Dec 2013 10:06

i said technical trials. those are the ones that the OFB conducted which it passed. right now its headed for army winter trials (user) and those will be beginning shortly, if they havent already. after that it will go for summer trials.

as regards astra, the IAF is going to be very happy if the missile works and will order it, because as specifications stand, its clearly superior to the R77 avionics wise, and equivalent kinematically. i dont think they will seek to delay it or kill it, because it plugs a critical IAF requirement and imports are very expensive, and require OEM support for minor changes/refits.

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Dec 2013 12:05

Astra will be delayed and killed as it is direct replacement of Barak-1, QRSAM and SRSAM which are a USD 5 Billion procurement in offing.

srin · Post by **srin** » 07 Dec 2013 14:21

vic wrote:Astra will be delayed and killed as it is direct replacement of Barak-1, QRSAM and SRSAM which are a USD 5 Billion procurement in offing.

Hmm - not sure I understand. How would a BVR AA missile that the fighters will be armed with replace short-range command guidance Naval SAM like Barak-1 ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Dec 2013 20:20

vic wrote:Astra will be delayed and killed as it is direct replacement of Barak-1, QRSAM and SRSAM which are a USD 5 Billion procurement in offing.

astra is just a bvr missile at this point of time. SRSAM is entirely different program with different partner and funded separately.

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Dec 2013 22:18

Please refer to variants of AMRAAM, MICA, Python and Derby through Google.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Dec 2013 05:59

i know that. but your arguments dont add up, in this case. you are claiming a motive to kill the astra because it will otherwise be used as a QRSAM.

however, that ignores the fact that a separate QRSAM program via the SRSAM project already exists and is being headed by the same group (DRDL) that is working on astra. and that too is a triservice requirement. so cancelling/attacking astra will do nothing to stall this immediate development of SRSAM.

meanwhile, we know for a fact IAF needs huge numbers of PGMs and is very interested in astra. they, dont appreciate having to run after russia for R-77 (teething issues in the past, high cost, foreign support) and mica (extremely expensive, lower range).

ergo, it doesn't add up that they will seek to cancel astra.

only possibility is IAF holds out for mk2 and only orders limited numbers of mk1. but that too is a limited possibility, because lets face it, IAF needs BVR weapons fast. more the better, as it builds up su-30 inventory (another 100 to come) and lca inventory (40 in first tranche post 2015 onwards).

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Dec 2013 07:34

Karan M wrote:...
however, that ignores the fact that a separate QRSAM program via the SRSAM project already exists and is being headed by the same group (DRDL) that is working on astra. and that too is a triservice requirement. so cancelling/attacking astra will do nothing to stall this immediate development of SRSAM.
...

If you're talking about the JV with MBDA, was that ever signed?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 08 Dec 2013 07:47

Vic gone mad

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Dec 2013 09:20

Don't expect full cooperation from the Russians for the AGAT seeker for Astra if we don't order R-77's. we will need to mix and match till we come up to speed with seekers

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Dec 2013 21:07

abhik wrote:
Karan M wrote:...
however, that ignores the fact that a separate QRSAM program via the SRSAM project already exists and is being headed by the same group (DRDL) that is working on astra. and that too is a triservice requirement. so cancelling/attacking astra will do nothing to stall this immediate development of SRSAM.
...
If you're talking about the JV with MBDA, was that ever signed?

been stuck for financing. but its trundling along.

deal to finally conclude key points was struck in feb 2013.
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/india ... 130214.htm

hence as of nov 2013:

Top DRDO sources indicate that the agreement will be signed this financial year, and has received all requisite approvals.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... -simulator

the deal is basically to leverage MBDA stuff for the missile itself, while drdo does the rest (C3I, FCR etc)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Dec 2013 21:10

Aditya_V wrote:Don't expect full cooperation from the Russians for the AGAT seeker for Astra if we don't order R-77's. we will need to mix and match till we come up to speed with seekers

well, we have ordered many R-77s already and will likely order RVV-SD (improved r-77) also with Super-30 upg.
astra mk-1 imo, even if IAF acts pricey and wants to wait for mk2, a few hundred will be ordered, which will still be a substantial order. many more will be ordered, if IAF decides to build up on astra mk-1 replacing older R77s and R27s. that would be the rational thing to do IMO, but its the IAFs choice to make.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 10 Dec 2013 11:18

Longest Range Ballistic Missile All Set for Undersea Launch
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 937718.ece
By Hemant Kumar Rout - BALASORE

India is finally gearing up for the maiden test firing of its submarine launch of longest range and nuclear capable ballistic missile code-named K-4 from an underwater platform off the Vizag coast by end of next month. The missile flies in hypersonic speed and is the world’s best weapon in this class.

The much-awaited test which was scheduled for September was postponed due to technological developments. The indigenously developed 3,500-km range missile has been planned to be test launched from a pontoon (replica of a submarine) positioned nearly 50 feet under the sea surface.

The missile is the longer version of K-15, dubbed as B-05 missile which has been test fired at least 10 times. Though it has been designed to cover a distance of 3,500 kms, sources told The Express that this time the test would be conducted for a range of about 1,500 km.

The K-4 missile was developed very fast as many systems used in the missile were already perfected during the development of B-05 missile. The new missile will enable India to target China and Pakistan from its waters.

A defence scientist associated with the missile said some of its sub-systems had already been tested successfully earlier and the missile with full configuration was ready for its first launch. “We are leaving no stone unturned to make the mission successful. We want to achieve close to zero circular error probability (CEP) accuracy,” he said.

The K-4 is one of the most ambitious projects of the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) and it was kept under wrap for years. Plans are also afoot to induct the B-05 missile, which has a strike range of nearly 700 kms, in the armed forces next year. This missile will also be test fired from the indigenously built India’s first submarine INS Arihant after it completes sea trials in 2014.

Defence sources said the K-4 missile is about 12 metre tall having a diameter of 1.3 metre and weighs around 17 tonne. It is capable of carrying a warhead of around 2 tonne and uses solid propellant.

Once inducted, the missile will not only complete India’s third leg of the nuclear deterrent, but also be the second strike weapon system in its much touted nuclear doctrine. It can target major Chinese cities even remaining away from the Chinese water. It could better be characterised as a hypersonic cruise missile, since it remains within the earth’s atmosphere. Making the K-4 even more survivable is its ability to manoeuvre, following a twisting path to the target which makes it very difficult to shoot it down.

The next missile in this series is K-5 which will have a strike range of nearly 5,000 km.

AGNI-III ON SCHEDULE

Range integration was conducted in the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off the Odisha coast for the proposed test firing of 3,500 km range nuclear capable ballistic missile Agni-III. The weapon is scheduled to be test fired from the Wheeler Island by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of the Indian Army on December 18. It is the second user trial of the indigenously built surface-to-surface missile. This test will follow one each developmental trial of 4,000-km range Agni-IV and 5,000-km range Agni-V missile next month

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Dec 2013 11:27

Defence sources said the K-4 missile is about 12 metre tall having a diameter of 1.3 metre and weighs around 17 tonne. It is capable of carrying a warhead of around 2 tonne and uses solid propellant.

Wow...2 Tonnes + 3500 KM range means its a modified A-III?

How are they testing this first without having tested cannisterized A-III on land first? isnt it even harder for underwater launches?

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Dec 2013 11:36

Lots of missile tests, K-4, A3, A4 and A5. All good.

But the K-4 missile being of 12 metre length is intriguing. That means maximum diameter of the Arihant will be more than 12m which I doubt. There is something strange going on.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2013 12:19

so we were completely wrong in the K-4 being a ICBM(aka A3SL). it is in effect a evolved form of the Shourya/K-15.
nearly the same length but 2X the diameter and 2.2X the weight.
one can call it the Shourya2 perhaps.

what the K-5 will be remains to be seen, but I feel we need a proper ICBM rather than a hypersonic upper atmosphere vehicle because ICBMs offer three advantages
(a) the plunging RV is much smaller than the powered hypersonic airframe and hence lesser RCS
(b) Mach20 vs Mach7
(c) greater range as the 3 stages drop off, for the same weight.

perhaps the next class of 3 ships will feature such a weapon.

btw a HD camera flush with the Shourya and recording it for entire flight would be super awesome as a psyops/drool tool.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 10 Dec 2013 14:16

Singha wrote:so we were completely wrong in the K-4 being a ICBM(aka A3SL).

1.3 meter diameter is not A3 but A4. A3 is 2 meter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni-III

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 10 Dec 2013 14:22

very true, however, I do love the idea of a Hypersonic cruise vehicles, with china working towards a ABM, it is perhaps better to to have hypersonic maneuvering missiles. I think the speed should remain well over mach 7-10.

Already 4-5 years ago, certain coatings were developed that allowed for higher ranges and much lower drags at hypersonic speeds, I think we see these technologies maturing in K-4s and eventually K-5s. I expect the Sagarika/ Shaurya, K-4s already have low RCS due to mainly composite airframes, very streamlined designs and RAM coatings. I think, they are bound to be among the most survivable Nuke missiles ever built. Sagarika with its speed, manuevering and range is already the deadliest tactical missile ever developed. Sure it can carry a nuke warhead, however, strapping a variety of coventional warheads to it would make it the very cream of long range strike coventional missiles. Critical targets like OTTHRs, Air Defence radars, Critical Command Centres can be knocked out from Subs, Destroyers and land based launchers. It should be the norm to have Sagarika, Brahmos, Nirbhay on the next gen Destroyers.

IMO Sagarika shouldn't be our primary Naval Nuke missile rather our longest range Conventional strike missile meant only to knock out the most critical of land based targets.

I think Sagarika Missile Silo on the Arihant should be converted into a universal launcher to fit in modules of 6 Brahmos or Nirbhays, 3 Sagarikas. On our next gen destroyers, we should have 12 such silos carrying a mix of missiles, with 4 dedicated to 3 Sagarikas each ie. 12 missiles, 4 silos for Brahmos 1/2 i.e 24 missiles and 4 silos for Nirbhay also 24 missiles i.e 60 strike missiles + 24 VLS of Barak ER + 24 VLS of Barak-1 or Maitri QR-SAM if it comes in those timelines, 4 AK630s, 76mm OTO Melara, 2 MH-60s or S-70Is to top it off.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Dec 2013 14:50

dinesha wrote:Longest Range Ballistic Missile All Set for Undersea Launch
Defence sources said the K-4 missile is about 12 metre tall having a diameter of 1.3 metre and weighs around 17 tonne.

Earlier reports had spoken of K4 as a 10-m & 20 Tonne class vehicle. It looks like some solid optimization and improvement have taken place.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2013 15:09

>> low RCS due to mainly composite airframes

but if it flies at alt 40km @ mach6 (120,000ft) would it not be subject to atmospheric heating at leading edges and need special components like titanium as on the SR71 ? or is the air too thin at the level to pose much drag?

the X-15 which flew at 300,000ft ceiling @ mach7 used nickel-chromium allow for part of the fuselage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Dec 2013 15:46

Do not know about material, but, the missile rotates so as to evenly heat all "sides" during the flight.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 10 Dec 2013 18:57

Singha wrote:so we were completely wrong in the K-4 being a ICBM(aka A3SL). it is in effect a evolved form of the Shourya/K-15.

The range of k4 being 3500 km was posted many times, how did you miss that ???

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 10 Dec 2013 19:57

merlin wrote:Lots of missile tests, K-4, A3, A4 and A5. All good.

I would've expected the A4 to be tested before the K4, still not clear as to the exact doctrinal role of the A3.

Wonder if there will be a true-blue SLBM in an as yet undeclared project (K6 for example)?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 10 Dec 2013 19:59

Latest piece of news on the K4 & K5 confirms the Arihant class will be proper SSGN's like the Ohio class of the USN.

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 Dec 2013 20:19

With K-4 also have the features of K-15 i think it would be more effective and Deadly than DF-21 as AC killer.

launch from Arihant in BoB it can easily sunk a carrier in SC sea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2013 20:43

well even the basic Shourya/K15 nearly matches the DF21D in range with a 300kg payload and the K4 clearly outmatches it if the range is 3500km with a 1t payload.
we could target naval fleets in middle of IOR from MP using a land based variant.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Dec 2013 21:15

Now all they need to develop is a land/ship based long range missile that can hunt a submerged sub!!!!

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 Dec 2013 21:21

There was one article few months back which describe the concept mother-missile carrying the number of baby missiles.

If in future if we apply this concept in K-4(2 ton warheads) and directed several of it towards chinese CBG then it can create a mayhem, just a imagination but i think very much possible.

PS:Any way , more masala for vivekji's fenix scenario

.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 10 Dec 2013 23:48

nash wrote:There was one article few months back which describe the concept mother-missile carrying the number of baby missiles.

If in future if we apply this concept in K-4(2 ton warheads) and directed several of it towards chinese CBG then it can create a mayhem, just a imagination but i think very much possible.

PS:Any way , more masala for vivekji's fenix scenario .

Why do you need baby missiles? The same can be done with MIRV.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 11 Dec 2013 06:38

SSridhar wrote:
Defence sources said the K-4 missile is about 12 metre tall having a diameter of 1.3 metre and weighs around 17 tonne.
Earlier reports had spoken of K4 as a 10-m & 20 Tonne class vehicle. It looks like some solid optimization and improvement have taken place.

There's two versions of K-4 listed here K Missile Family

K-4 Mark I 3,500 km 20 tonnes 2.5 tonnes 10 m
K-4 Mark II 5,000 km 17 tonnes 1 tonne 12 m

There's been a drop in payload capacity of 1.5 tonnes. Would that correspond to the drop in missile weight ?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Dec 2013 08:20

HeliNa Missile Tested Again.

A developmental trial of helicopter launched Nag (HeliNa), DRDO’s anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) was conducted from a defence base off the Odisha coast on Tuesday.

Defence sources said the short range weapon was test-fired by the missile handling unit of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) from the launching complex-II of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea at about 10.05 am.

This was third trial of an upgraded and air version of surface-to-surface missile Nag. Earlier two trials of this third generation ‘fire and forget’ missile was conducted from the Pokhran firing range and claimed as successful. It is one of the five missile systems developed by DRDO under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP).

“The trial was conducted for a strike range of four km. Data collected during the test are being analysed. One more trial of the missile is scheduled to be conducted on Wednesday,” informed an official.

On July 8, seeker evaluation trials for anti-tank missile were carried out in hot desert conditions in Rajasthan. The trials were against both moving and static targets for different ranges of 2.8 km and 3.2 km to evaluate the performance of an improved version of Imaging Infrared (IIR) seeker.

While Nag missile has a maximum range of 4 km, the seeker proved to be accurate only up to 2.5 km in extremely hot conditions in the trials conducted last year. However, the HeliNa has an extended strike range of about eight km. Sources said the problem with the Nag was its range.

The missile can strike its targets up to 4 km but in extreme heat conditions, the missile cannot reach the targets beyond three km. The user of the missile Indian Army also has raised its reservations against its weight. The weapon weighs around 40 kgs thus making the reloading difficult.

Following demands from the Army, DRDO has assured them to reduce the weight of the missile in its latest versions - Mark-II Nag and also to equip it with a seeker with high resolution which can distinguish the target from the other ground objects at a distance of up to four km.

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Dec 2013 13:25

Till 1990s, QRSAM and SRSAM made sense when the SAMs with the range of 30-70km used to:-

Weight around 700-1500kg
Were very costly
Depended on very heavy semi static radars for terminal guidance

But now the new breed of missiles like ASTRA and MRSAM:-

Weight around 150-250kg
The main cost is the seeker of the missile which is same (for all practical purposes) irrespective of the size of the missile
The missile are less dependent on radars for end game

QRSAM & SRSAM are pushed on the grounds similar to by creating a fictitious requirement, as done in the case of:-

T-90 vs Arjun
9mm SMGs vs MSMC & INSAS & Kalantak
Agusta VIP Helos Vs ALH etc
Imported Air Defence Gun vs Indigenous programmes which were killed by repeated changes
HTT-40 vs PC-7
Requirement of ULH vs developing an indigenous solution
Killing & Delaying FICV vs BMP-2 upgrade

The need for these missiles (QRSAM & SRSAM) can be rationalized but the better course would be to use variants of indigenous solutions (like ASTRA & MRSAM) and for bridge period use extra Akash missiles/batteries.

You have tendency to paint every aspect of foreign acquisition in one broad brush of an attempt to kill domestic development effort. While you're free to criticize the armed forces and MOD for their acts of commission and omission on this account, making sweeping statements in not warranted. And that too by posting only couple of lines on topic w/o bothering to expand on the subject and opening it for wider debate. It adds nothing to the topic of discussion and general body of knowledge. Posters pick-up these half baked theories and start repeating them.

Next time you make an assertion, please do so with some data-points and facts which actually back your position.

Next time, making inane comments like 'killing & delaying FICV versus BMP-2 upgrade' will attract a warning - rohitvats

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Dec 2013 17:42

Vipul wrote:HeliNa Missile Tested Again.

While Nag missile has a maximum range of 4 km, the seeker proved to be accurate only up to 2.5 km in extremely hot conditions in the trials conducted last year. However, the HeliNa has an extended strike range of about eight km. Sources said the problem with the Nag was its range.

The missile can strike its targets up to 4 km but in extreme heat conditions, the missile cannot reach the targets beyond three km. The user of the missile Indian Army also has raised its reservations against its weight. The weapon weighs around 40 kgs thus making the reloading difficult.

Following demands from the Army, DRDO has assured them to reduce the weight of the missile in its latest versions - Mark-II Nag and also to equip it with a seeker with high resolution which can distinguish the target from the other ground objects at a distance of up to four km.

It is very difficult to develop IR seekers with range of 4km in hot desert conditions. For instance, even the cooled Javelin seekers have a range of only 2.5km compared to maximum range of 4.5km for the missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2013 18:39

javelin have gora chamra so benchmark can be lowered.
helina have kala chamra so benchmark will be rigid.
after a fruitless hunt of 5 yrs trying seekers from all over the world, the project will be declared obsolete and late and hence a failure.
followed by import of 10,000 javelins with 2.5km seeker!

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 11 Dec 2013 19:39

DRDO seems confident that the new seeker will make the cut let's wait and watch. Though even that can't confirm an order from IA.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2013 19:47

Also why test in hottest summer at max range? Is it realistic combat situation they expect TSP to charge into the desert in summer? They will die of thirst before they get killed by Nag/Vag.

Another thing is propellant burn rate is temperature dependent. So it will burn faster/quicker on hot days.