China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2013 11:46

Rupak wrote:
NRao wrote:[quote="Cosmo_R"

Possibly India just may not be prepared for what China can throw at her?

Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy two submarines from China/quote]
This is just silly. Bangladesh is a sovereign country and can choose to purchase whatever equipment she wishes. The tragedy is that she has to turn to the Chinese rather than to India. IMHO, this is the result of systemic failure in neighbourhood policy...
The late RK Mishra used to lament that India, in recent times, had neither the capacity to engender love nor fear among her neighbours.

Advantage for India is now the IN would be able to closely monitor and study these Chinese vessels.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2013 12:45

not to use torn shirt - open fly argument but one of our civil comsats launched by tfta ariane5 no less seems to be lost of badly malfunctioning. there were reports on this. the fallout is that operators like TataSky who had booked transponders to increase number of HD channels to compete with newcomers are stuck in limbo with ISRO providing no update and stonewalling why these transponders cannot be handed over more than a year after launch.

its a hostile place up there and mishaps happen.

July , 2013
http://www.indiantelevision.com/digital ... uldig7.php
Tata Sky's signals are being beamed off Insat 4A; but it had signed a contract to lease 12 transponders on ISRO's GSAT-10 satellite around five years ago which have not been delivered to Tata Sky yet, even after the satellite launched in to space in September 2012.

"It is sad that after national publications and a medium such as yours have carried my complaint against ISRO, I have not got a single revert from it about our transponders. We intend to take legal action since all our attempts to reach ISRO have failed. The courts are on vacation now, when they open again, we will move them," added Nagpal.

The transponders would have allowed Tata Sky to increase its channel offerings to consumers. However, now the new STBs will allow Tata Sky to add more channels to its bouquet. "We have been adding channels in a phased manner; the process will now be accelerated with the MPEG-4 STB. By June-July next year we should be able to revise our channel offerings to consumers," said Nagpal.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 858765.ece

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 13 Dec 2013 11:19

Yes probably an electrical failure on the GSAT-10. IMO ISRO has had more than their fair share of electrical failures on their satellites (just like IN has had more than their fair share of catastrophic losses in peace time).

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 13 Dec 2013 23:41

PLAN-USN near collision

USN CG shadowing the Liaoning if some other reports are to be believed.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Dec 2013 03:13

The SAR sats used for acquiring naval targets, can they detect conventional subs surfacing at night while charging their batteries?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 14 Dec 2013 03:29

vasu raya wrote:The SAR sats used for acquiring naval targets, can they detect conventional subs surfacing at night while charging their batteries?

Are you asking if telescopic satellites can see at night in the infra-red spectrum?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Dec 2013 03:43

^^^

Is that a suggestion that US uses 'inverted Hubbles' with wide aperture

and Chinese use SAR sats as part of their DF-21 program, the latter if effective can work in daytime too?

there was a news report, maybe you posted it, on the recent advances in the optics, with glass being replaced by thin film with weight savings

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2013 03:43

I think it is an issue of pattern recognition.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Dec 2013 03:55

^^^

Against a ocean backdrop that should be easy? not to mention the multi-sensor approach by US

how do they deal with,
ocean waves for SAR, given that subs don't surface in choppy waters anyways
warm oceans for IR, using terms I don't fully understand, black body radiation vs. nano bolometers

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 14 Dec 2013 04:07

Why do some naval observation satellites fly in flight formation in groups of three?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Dec 2013 04:17

vasu raya wrote:^^^

Against a ocean backdrop that should be easy? not to mention the multi-sensor approach by US

how do they deal with,
ocean waves for SAR, given that subs don't surface in choppy waters anyways
warm oceans for IR, using terms I don't fully understand, black body radiation vs. nano bolometers

That is what I said, it is a matter of pattern recognition. A software based solution.

Combing large areas could be another issue. Sats sweep and I suspect they will have to conduct many sweeps to cover an ocean. Sat frequency could be known to sub captains and they could avoid such sweeps. ????

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Dec 2013 04:47

for PN and BN, the real time sat position feed could be provided by China like you said, it could be PLAN masquerading as PN/BN in IOR

then there could be global or ocean level coverage by such sats 24/7 with a constellation, the cost of which should be weighed against the cost and time of a fleet of conventional subs

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Dec 2013 05:21

TSJones wrote:Why do some naval observation satellites fly in flight formation in groups of three?

Google says for larger synthetic aperture and for 3D SAR image, why would anybody need 3D images in a naval context?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2013 07:27

I think something called ISAR is used for naval surveillance like locating ships and periscopes. not sure how it works. khan is the world leader in both SAR and ISAR.
Inverse synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) is a technique to generate a two-dimensional high resolution image of a target. ISAR technology utilizes the movement of the target rather than the emitter to create the synthetic aperture. ISAR radars have a significant role aboard maritime patrol aircraft to provide them with radar image of sufficient quality to allow it to be used for target recognition purposes. In situations where other radars display only a single unidentifiable bright moving pixel, the ISAR image is often adequate to discriminate between various missiles, military aircraft, and civilian aircraft.

TSJ, those trios of sats are NOSS satellites located some 27km away from each other. obviously cheen is trying to launch enough to give some coverage upto the blue water island chain.
being LEO, they tend to move fast from horizon to horizon, so lots of trios are needed in same orbital plane to go 24x7. ofcourse they retain the right to launch DF21D in the time windows when their sats have coverage...as the first mover of war.
The NOSS satellites operate in clusters in low Earth orbit to detect radio transmissions from ships at sea and locate them using the "Time Difference Of Arrival" technique

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 14 Dec 2013 21:22

Chinese moon rover has landed. No comment, nothing?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 14 Dec 2013 21:40

those NOSS sats trio configuration have redundancy built in? even of one sat fails due to mass manufacturing techniques or gets taken out by an ASAT weapon, with just 2 left they still will be operational.

what is their utility with NASA? achieving long range laser communication

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 14 Dec 2013 22:00

rsingh wrote:Chinese moon rover has landed. No comment, nothing?

Does it strike fear and loathing into the hearts of the round eyes? Well, not exactly. But it does require a certain level of respect for the difficulty of it. It's certainly not an easy thing to do. I think it is for mainly national pride of the Chinese. Therefore not much comments from the free press and the rest of the world.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Dec 2013 00:19

Chang'e 3 landing.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Dec 2013 15:00

rsingh wrote:Chinese moon rover has landed. No comment, nothing?

Fair Point

Congratulations to the Folks in PRC for the success of the Jade Rabbit. Great dev, plan and execution... all the way. I will drink to that tonight.
They would get actually be getting the pats from the ex-Apollo crew as well who preach a return to the Terra Luna before all.

Actually i have been following this news very closely and been giving friendly jabs to my Chinese colleague at work at the fact that we are going to Mars and his buds just going to the moon.
But all in all.... they have made steady progress and have uplifted themselves into version 2.0 game.
Well done to my chinese brethren and no point being petty about it now chaps.

It just makes life so much full of Junoon ... to have them on the opposing ridge.

Round 2 anyone ?

gashish · Post by **gashish** » 15 Dec 2013 19:21

Here we go again.

‏From twitter:

@IndiaToday
News Flash: Chinese troops apprehend 5 Indians in Chumar, Ladakh well inside Indian territory

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 15 Dec 2013 22:36

Congratulations to the Folks in PRC for the success of the Jade Rabbit. Great dev, plan and execution... all the way.

Indeed, China has established that it has a first class space program-manned spaceflight, docking of capsules in orbit and now a lunar rover.

India will do all this but GSLV III needs to happen. The semicrygenic engine, TSTO, hyperplane remain pie in the sky, notwithstanding periodic announcements of scramjet tests-just makes Indians look ridiculous.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 16 Dec 2013 00:44

^^ + 1 Sanjay. They have made their country proud. They are rapidly moving into high tech field having mastered technology by beg, borrow, steal or copy in last decade. Look at their super computer ! Ranking, science and math Olympiad ranking etc.. All that matters is whether they can do it and answer is yes.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 16 Dec 2013 02:41

ashish raval wrote:^^ + 1 Sanjay. They have made their country proud. They are rapidly moving into high tech field having mastered technology by beg, borrow, steal or copy in last decade. Look at their super computer ! Ranking, science and math Olympiad ranking etc.. All that matters is whether they can do it and answer is yes.

...yes, it commands a certain amount of respect. But remember India's space effort is 100% indigenous, unlike China who got their tech from Russia.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 Dec 2013 04:47

Chinese troops stop Army from patrolling in Indian territory

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Dec 2013 06:10

VinodTK wrote:Chinese troops stop Army from patrolling in Indian territory

While the world is focusing on their lunar effort they run their patent drama of doing something nonsensical - 1962 style, on a much smaller scale.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Dec 2013 08:20

Chinese moon rover launched successfully

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Dec 2013 08:31

TSJones wrote:
ashish raval wrote:^^ + 1 Sanjay. They have made their country proud. They are rapidly moving into high tech field having mastered technology by beg, borrow, steal or copy in last decade. Look at their super computer ! Ranking, science and math Olympiad ranking etc.. All that matters is whether they can do it and answer is yes.
...yes, it commands a certain amount of respect. But remember India's space effort is 100% indigenous, unlike China who got their tech from Russia.

And in the final analysis, that matters how??

Do you honestly believe that the Chinese aren't learning from whatever and wherever they get their tech from? Is there any evidence to suggest that because they got their past tech from Russia, they are still doing so and haven't learnt a thing from anything in their hands? Are we expected to seriously use this as an objective threat assessment for China? Or is it something to help us sleep better at night, happy in the moral high ground we supposedly hold?

Fact is that the Chinese are making progress in leaps and bounds. And should be respected enough for it. Their singular focus in getting the tech from any source available is also to be respected. In the final analysis, what matters is whether you have the capability or not, and not so much where you got it from.

If in the future the Chinese reverse-engineer all segments of tech needed to render themselves independent, will our threat assessment change or will that be an inconvenient truth still?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 16 Dec 2013 08:41

Well TSJ does have a point, sure India could have committed millions to rocketry as did Mao in the 50s and 60s (even in the absence of the Soviets transferring R-2 technology) and let starve a few tens of millions. Sure it could also licence and modify the Soyuz.

So India gets to the bench marks 10 years later.

Does that materially affect anything, except perhaps some individuals' private sense of honour and dignity.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 16 Dec 2013 08:49

vivek_ahuja wrote: And in the final analysis, that matters how??

Do you honestly believe that the Chinese aren't learning from whatever and wherever they get their tech from? Is there any evidence to suggest that because they got their past tech from Russia, they are still doing so and haven't learnt a thing from anything in their hands? Are we expected to seriously use this as an objective threat assessment for China? Or is it something to help us sleep better at night, happy in the moral high ground we supposedly hold?

Fact is that the Chinese are making progress in leaps and bounds. And should be respected enough for it. Their singular focus in getting the tech from any source available is also to be respected. In the final analysis, what matters is whether you have the capability or not, and not so much where you got it from.

If in the future the Chinese reverse-engineer all segments of tech needed to render themselves independent, will our threat assessment change or will that be an inconvenient truth still?

Where's their space prgram innovations, their stunning tech achievements?. Fact is India is having to re-invent where others have gone before, not China. Will India's prorgress in manned space be as fast as China. No, India is not copying anybody's stuff, China is.

But tell me who is likely to discover and invent new technology? India or China?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Dec 2013 09:21

sanjaykumar wrote:So India gets to the bench marks 10 years later.

Fair enough. My point was not about any race between India and China. That's entirely a separate issue. My point was on this notion that because we haven't taken the route the Chinese have, somehow that makes them less capable and their achievements less significant. I think this is a serious mistake in our line of thinking about the Chinese.

sanjaykumar wrote:Does that materially affect anything, except perhaps some individuals' private sense of honour and dignity.

So long as we are talking about peaceful interplanatery missions and the like, it does not materially affect anything. We get there 10 years later, its still the same.

The problem with this argument comes when we extend this line of thinking to the military side. Military capability (note: Capability, which includes, but is not the same as, technology) will win wars and situations created by: "we are 10 years (or 1 year, for that matter) behind", will kill us.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Dec 2013 09:29

TSJones wrote:Where's their space prgram innovations, their stunning tech achievements?. Fact is India is having to re-invent where others have gone before, not China. Will India's prorgress in manned space be as fast as China. No, India is not copying anybody's stuff, China is.

This is a very general statement on your part and I am unsure where to begin. You are asking me to defend the Chinese, which of course I won't do. I don't have the numbers to back it up. All I have is anecdotal experience from having spoken to some of their engineers involved in this line of work. And all I can say to you is that its a serious mistake to underestimate their intelligence or their capabilities simply because they have chosen a different approach to bridging the technology gap.

But tell me who is likely to discover and invent new technology? India or China?

Believe me when I say this: When we begin to overtake the Chinese on capability issues using our new technologies, I will be extremely happy to eat my own words. In the meantime, however, I must state that I cannot make the argument that reinventing the wheel is a better approach than reverse engineering technology taken/borrowed/stolen from others. Perhaps you will be right, perhaps you won't be. But one thing is for sure: I am hardly as confident as you are about our eventual triumph over the Chinese approach for acquiring and developing technology. My limited intelligence prevents me from making such sweeping arguments. However, that may be because I cannot see as far out as you are doing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Dec 2013 21:53

China vows to collect lunar samples in 2017 after successful mission

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 16 Dec 2013 22:07

Austin wrote:China vows to collect lunar samples in 2017 after successful mission

Why you have to "vow".........just do it if you can. Moon rocks are not cancer on moonlandscape.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 16 Dec 2013 22:37

rsingh wrote:
Austin wrote:China vows to collect lunar samples in 2017 after successful mission
Why you have to "vow".........just do it if you can. Moon rocks are not cancer on moonlandscape.

Yeah, that's their insecurity speaking.

This is what happens when you are desperate to emulate the Amrikhans in everything you do. There is that hint of desperation that seeps though everything they say.

Despite the scientific achievements, this is more about emulating the only superpower left. And it shows.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 17 Dec 2013 08:54

Some good info on Chinese navy ships.

http://complex.foreignpolicy.com/posts/ ... eM5rr.dpbs

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Dec 2013 09:46

Aiming high: China's air ambitions ( Janes Defence Weekly )

http://www.janes360.com/images/assets/9 ... ties_1.pdf

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Dec 2013 06:48

Chinese Army's secret of success? European engineering

If the People's Liberation Army went to war tomorrow, it would field an arsenal bristling with hardware from some of America's closest allies: Germany, France and Britain.

Most of China's advanced surface warships are powered by German and French-designed diesel engines. Chinese destroyers have French sonar, anti-submarine-warfare helicopters and surface-to-air missiles.

China's first aircraft carrier, which was renovated from an old aircraft carrier that China bought from Ukraine in 1998, is seen docked at Dalian Port, in Dalian, Liaoning province. REUTERS

Above the battlefield, British jet engines drive PLA fighter bombers and anti-ship strike aircraft. The latest Chinese surveillance aircraft are fitted with British airborne early warning radars. Some of China's best attack and transport helicopters rely on designs from Eurocopter, a subsidiary of pan-European aerospace and defense giant EADS.

But perhaps the most strategic item obtained by China on its European shopping spree is below the waterline: the German-engineered diesels inside its submarines.

Emulating the rising powers of last century - Germany, Japan and the Soviet Union - China is building a powerful submarine fleet, including domestically built Song and Yuan-class boats. The beating hearts of these subs are state-of-the-art diesel engines designed by MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH of Friedrichshafen, Germany. Alongside 12 advanced Kilo-class submarines imported from Russia, these 21 German-powered boats are the workhorses of China's modern conventional submarine force.

With Beijing flexing its muscles around disputed territory in the East China Sea and South China Sea, China's diesel-electric submarines are potentially the PLA's most serious threat to its American and Japanese rivals. This deadly capability has been built around robust and reliable engine technology from Germany, a core member of the U.S.-led North Atlantic Treaty Organization
:
:
:

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 22 Dec 2013 04:02

Chinese media reports of plans to build a 110,000 ton 'super aircraft carrier' to rival US naval power

CHINA has declared it is building a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier of a size to rival the biggest in United States naval service in the first move of a major new arms race.
Chinese website qianzhan.com cites "top People's Liberation Army" sources as saying the 110,000-ton aircraft carrier should be launched by 2020.
"By that time, China will be able to confront the most advanced US carrier-based fighter jets in high sea," the Chinese-language article reads.
The news follows rising tensions in the South and East China Seas where the most recent incident involved a near-collision with a US cruiser shadowing China's first aircraft carrier, the refurbished Liaoning which was purchased from Ukraine.

China's first homegrown aircraft carrier will be a larger version of Liaoning. The first of two such vessels is due to hit the water in 2015.
The design is reportedly based on drawings from the former Soviet Union of a nuclear-powered, 80,000 ton vessel capable of carrying 60 aircraft.
"Despite their lack of experience, Chinese scientific research personnel have the ambition to overcome various difficulties to master lots of new technologies and techniques in building China's own powerful aircraft carrier," the article reads.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Dec 2013 05:42

^^^^^

Brazil is providing carrier training for the Chinese, in exchange for submarine technologies.

I just hope that Russians do nto provide any support for this new carrier.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 24 Dec 2013 03:06

China’s Black Hawk helicopter clone makes first flight

http://theaviationist.com/2013/12/23/z-20-first-flight/

On Dec. 23, at 14.11 Local Time, Chinese medium lift utility helicopter dubbed Z-20 made its first flight.

As the image (published on a Chinese Internet website and then made available by Alert5) shows, the chopper is clearly based on the U.S. Black Hawk type (China operates 24 Black Hawk procured in 1983 as S-70C-2).

Still, it features some peculiar things: the 5-blade rotor, a larger cabin and a different landing gear and tail.

Z-20 is believed to be a 10-ton chopper that will be used to replace Mi-17 and Mi-171 helos within People’s Liberation Army.

As the (short) article mentions, there are only some minor differences externally between the Z-20 and the Blackhawk. There's a bit of a debate on the Chinese board as to where this Z-20 fits into the PLA force structure. While it's clear that there needs to be a replacement for the Mi-17/171's, there is already a 10-ton class helicopter (13-ton to be exact) developed in the AC-313, which is an evolution of the Super Frelon/Z-8. The initial conclusion is that the lower profile of the Z-20/Blackhawk would allow them to be stored in the 054A and the 052C/D's hangars thus allowing for naval operations on existing frigates and destroyers.

Another news from the Chinese sites, the 3rd J-20 prototype appears to be revealed:

It seems real because it does fit with the rumors of a white primer and a modified vertical stabilizer (clipped corners).