India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 08:22

It's a game of Chicken now, eh? Where will it end.... Cutting diplomatic ties? Somebody's got to back down and/or come up with a face-saving exit. Now the problem here is -

1. GOI, close to elections, worried about social-media/media blowback if we back down. There's also Babu ire....
2. GOTUS does not want to be seen to bend to someone who has no oil or Jihadis/JDAMs..... or can seriously maul it in any sphere
3. And don't forget, whoever started of this whole mess could not have yet got what it aimed for.....

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:23

saip wrote:
If there is no case against her then she will not be found guilty by the justice system.
Yea right and I have a bridge in Brooklyn and will sell it to you cheap. The US (Preet Barar said as much) does not believe in Indian Judiciary but you would in US judiciary.

I don't have that kind of money, try selling that to our corrupt and moronic politicians and our corrupt and moronic diplomats who have landed us in this predicament.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:24

KLMurthyji! +1000

Janani Janmabhoomischa swargadhapi giriyasi - may be Nepalese motto but mine as well...

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:25

Dipanker wrote:
I don't have that kind of money, try selling that to our corrupt and moronic politicians and our corrupt and moronic diplomats who have landed us in this predicament.

Mir Jafar thought the same thing.

I cannot get them, so I will let the Brits get them.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:25

Dipanker wrote:On top of that, US is a very "punishment" oriented society unlike us Indians who are a "forgiveness" oriented society, this a major cross cultural difference between Americans and us Indians.

Have you ever been charged in a local court in the US or served on a jury? I have - punishment is is generally reserved for the poor, underprivileged and non-whites. Federal courts are a different matter, but much depends on the district and who the federal prosecutor is. If it's like Preet Bahara, he'll throw your ass in jail if he can make name for himself.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 20 Dec 2013 08:27

Leaving aside the technical legalities of the case, I am mystified that rabid white feminists and their Shomless type mouthpieces would not find the treatment meted out to a fellow sister despicable and barbaric. I mean, DevyaniJi was legaly raped by jack booted US law enforcement thugs, for at best a technicality. I would think anybody with a decent mind, let alone feminist, would be horrified at this.

NYT has condescending editorial on how India treats its servants and why Kerry expressed regret. US chutzpah across the board is breath-taking. That homosexual diplomat Peter Crowley in BBC deplore our human rights record. Its human rights to cavity search a woman diplomat for at best a technical error?

Finally, Arnab had a show last night where he shows how much US diplomats pay local servant maids and other workers in the countries they are posted in. Its a disgrace. The moral posturing of US in times like these is breathtakingly disgusting. And that too when you consider how US herself treats its underclass with a veneer of legality which does not mean much in practices. Blood disgusting.

Arnab was also wondering as to what other big wig Uncle Toms on US media are saying, like Fareed Zakriah.

Jarita, you make excellent points. But sometimes US needs to be shown the mirror. And in this case, while India has limited leverage, I think India must persist till US gets the message. There must be some tit for tat. Stooping booze for pompous toadies in US embassy in Delhi, or removing barricades is not enough.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:28

Anindya wrote:SS - should India not demand, the safeguard of US not supplying weapons to TSPA, in return for putting up barricades for the US consulates in India? After all, US weapons to Pakistan also puts the lives of our families at risk, much like the lack of barricades for US consulates may put US lives at risk.

The liaisons of Daoud Gilani alias David Headly, the US Agent, resulted in the killing of a hundred Indians and maimed hundreds more and the US was aware of what he was up to all the time. They did not share the intelligence with us allowing us to be slaughtered and a city like Mumbai to be held hostage for three days in a terrorist urban warfare. That was all for the sake of American interests. We should not forget that ever.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:29

If you are summoned to answer for a crime and if you are black , you are going to have the book thrown at you and also possibly given the longest punishment possible. Its because of the stereotypes that the media keeps propagating.

So far our stereotypes have been SDRE, smelly, arranged marriage, weird mystics (note that there is no Yoga)etc. It has now turned into "slave owners", "rapists" etc. Which means tomorrow if someone even falsely charges you or me for these crimes, a jury wont need much of an evidence to throw us into prison, because of the stereotype. While the gora admi does all this legally, he has most of black people as prison slaves who cannot vote due to being felons etc etc.

I hope MUTUs realize the danger they are getting themselves into by being MUTU for this case.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 20 Dec 2013 08:30

Dipanker and Hulaku have essentially hijacked the discussion. we need to move forward with what needs to be done next. but instead we are again discussion all the things that were said 10 pages ago.

it is clear that US won't back down. India cannot let this go unanswered. it's time to really retaliate.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:33

Anand K wrote:It's a game of Chicken now, eh? Where will it end.... Cutting diplomatic ties? Somebody's got to back down and/or come up with a face-saving exit. Now the problem here is -

1. GOI, close to elections, worried about social-media/media blowback if we back down. There's also Babu ire....
2. GOTUS does not want to be seen to bend to someone who has no oil or Jihadis/JDAMs..... or can seriously maul it in any sphere
3. And don't forget, whoever started of this whole mess could not have yet got what it aimed for.....

Simple. Monitor and video a US diplomat engaged in illegal activity, which probably happens frequently, arrest him/her and put them and let the case progress through the state courts like UP or Bihar. Then offer a prisoner exchange.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 20 Dec 2013 08:34

Dipanker wrote:My point was that Sangeeta is an adult and if she does not want to work for DK and walk out ( and in the process become an illiegal immigrant in US), right or wrong, it is totally her choice.

Yes, committing murder is also a choice. How is that germane or relevant or having any bearing on this discussion whatsoever?

She's had her passport revoked and is in breach of instructions by an Indian court.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 08:35

So exrradition request for richard?

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 08:37

^^for someone who is already in some sort of witness protection program?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 20 Dec 2013 08:39

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/colum ... 131216.htm

The arrest and handcuffing of India's Deputy Consul in New York, Dr Devyani Khobragade, left, was, undoubtedly, a national humiliation for which the US should be held responsible.

It is immaterial whether she was guilty of violating laws, whether she was entitled to diplomatic immunity or whether India-US relations are at a low ebb. As long as she was not guilty of a criminal act and not a threat to law and order, there was no justification for the high-handed behavior of the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York.

There was nothing in the alleged crime which necessitated her detention for a whole day in a cell like an ordinary criminal.

The case, as it has emerged from press reports, is related to a technical irregularity, nothing more.

Indian diplomats are allowed to take one or more India Based Domestic Assistants, IDBA, at government expense precisely because domestic help is essential to perform their representational duties and because hiring such services in Western countries is prohibitively expensive.

Some years ago, the US government began insisting that IDBAs should have contracts, indicating their wages, which should not be below the minimum wages in the country, and hours of work, etc for facilitating the issue of the necessary A3 visas.

Everyone understood that no Indian diplomat, or for that matter, any other diplomat would be able to pay nearly $10 per hour. The diplomats themselves are not paid that much!

Therefore, contracts were produced for visa purposes and they were given accommodation, food, clothes, medicine etc and wages, which are reasonable by Indian standards.

Sangeeta Richard, the deputy consul general's IBDA, appears to be in the last category even though we do not know how the tussle was triggered. Hopefully, she was treated well by her employers in the initial days of her employment.

She disowned her Indian contract and sought to enforce the US contract in the hope of getting a huge compensation, as it happened in the case of another diplomat in the same consulate.

The case was compounded by the fact that Dr Khobragade or her parents had already taken Richard to court in India.

The US authorities, which are aware of the existence of such a technical irregularity in several cases, should have normally alerted the consulate and sought a solution. Even in more serious cases, the two countries have withdrawn their diplomats by mutual agreement to avoid the operation of the law.

This is a good article explaining the diplomats and maids issue for all to understand.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:41

I think we are putting too much focus on a district attorney, howsoever powerful or popular he is. An event of this magnitude could not have happened without an approval from the South Asia desk in the State Deptt or even higher. The DA is a willing accomplice or an unwitting tool and in the process is trying to garner reflected glory for his personal benefit, perhaps. We have to get to the bottom of this to undertsand who, within the SD, did indeed sign-off or even initiate such an action. KC Singh said in the debate that the push came from top down.

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Dec 2013 08:43

I don't have that kind of money, try selling that to our corrupt and moronic politicians and our corrupt and moronic diplomats who have landed us in this predicament.

Kiddo, I am an American and dont understand what 'our' means. Agreed 'our' politicians are as corrupt and moronic as 'your' politicians and they got us into this mess.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Dec 2013 08:44

SSridhar wrote:I think we are putting too much focus on a district attorney, howsoever powerful or popular he is. An event of this magnitude could not have happened without an approval from the South Asia desk in the State Deptt or even higher. The DA is a willing accomplice or an unwitting tool and in the process is trying to garner reflected glory for his personal benefit, perhaps. We have to get to the bottom of this to undertsand who, within the SD, did indeed sign-off or even initiate such an action. KC Singh said in the debate that the push came from top down.

Sridhar saar, the South Asia desk of the SD has always been Pak-pasand and naturally anti-India. Now the SecState is also Pak-pasand. They all probably jumped at the opportunity to humiliate India and torpedo US-India relations when they found out what Bharara was trying to do.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:46

Nachiket and SS, you guys bring up interesting point for another possibility.

Can a Fai clone be involved here?

It stinks the same stink: EJ, Bakis, FoggyBottom.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 08:47

Bharara's or State Dept's logic of prosecuting personnel of foreign missions, for not following law by the book (as if their own citizens) seems strange. It assumes that their own diplomats follow the law in other countries where they are posted. What if GoI decides to review each and every document, by putting it under microscope, to find mistake from the forms filled by foreign nationals. Not that GoI's forms are clear and self-explainatory. It seems mathematically impossible that their own people sitting in consulates filled the forms correctly. What if GoI is successful in finding mistakes and decides to prosecute? Very strange..

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Dec 2013 08:48

LokeshC wrote:If you are summoned to answer for a crime and if you are black , you are going to have the book thrown at you and also possibly given the longest punishment possible. Its because of the stereotypes that the media keeps propagating.

So far our stereotypes have been SDRE, smelly, arranged marriage, weird mystics (note that there is no Yoga)etc. It has now turned into "slave owners", "rapists" etc. Which means tomorrow if someone even falsely charges you or me for these crimes, a jury wont need much of an evidence to throw us into prison, because of the stereotype. While the gora admi does all this legally, he has most of black people as prison slaves who cannot vote due to being felons etc etc.

I hope MUTUs realize the danger they are getting themselves into by being MUTU for this case.

This game of perception creation is a far bigger deal than retaliating by arresting diplomats and is what has to be paid in kind. Build a stereotype and propagate

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:49

But sometimes US needs to be shown the mirror.

It is common knowledge that the poorest are not white, the people with the worst health care are not white, that the prisons are filled with people who are not white, that the unemployable are not white, that slavery and genocide are an integral part of the American experience, that there is a profound inequality before the law.

Citizens of the US are not unaware of these curiosities of the shining city on the hill. Never make the error of presuming that these inequities are maintained only because Joe Sixpack is not better informed.

There is another America which is informed, enlightened and committed to a fairer and just society. Do not conflate the two parallel Americas.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 08:50

chanakyaa wrote:^^for someone who is already in some sort of witness protection program?

Point

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 08:52

Jarita wrote:
LokeshC wrote:If you are summoned to answer for a crime and if you are black , you are going to have the book thrown at you and also possibly given the longest punishment possible. Its because of the stereotypes that the media keeps propagating.

So far our stereotypes have been SDRE, smelly, arranged marriage, weird mystics (note that there is no Yoga)etc. It has now turned into "slave owners", "rapists" etc. Which means tomorrow if someone even falsely charges you or me for these crimes, a jury wont need much of an evidence to throw us into prison, because of the stereotype. While the gora admi does all this legally, he has most of black people as prison slaves who cannot vote due to being felons etc etc.

I hope MUTUs realize the danger they are getting themselves into by being MUTU for this case.

This game of perception creation is a far bigger deal than retaliating by arresting diplomats and is what has to be paid in kind. Build a stereotype and propagate

Agree with stereotyping, but there is a difference. Blacks don't have a country, Indians do. And it all depends on the India's response..

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:53

KLNMurthy wrote:
At the end of the day, this is a jingo forum.

If India were to be the worst, most exploitative, caste-ridden, dirty horrible country in the world, with only greedy and abusive people, and if US were to be the most egalitarian and humane regime in the world and there is a power play by the US against India, whose side will you take? That is the spirit of the discussion here.

I know what my answer would be. Do you?

Please do not question my patriotism, I consider myself as much Indian as anybody else on this forum if not more. But I am certainly flabbergasted by so many irrational responses on this thread and else were by my fellow Indians.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 08:54

and your fellow indians are equally aghast at your "rationality" as you put it and your zeal in defending the indefensible. now that you have made your opinions known.

I don't have that kind of money, try selling that to our corrupt and moronic politicians and our corrupt and moronic diplomats who have landed us in this predicament.

corrupt and moronic indian (right?) politicians and diplomats landed "us" in this "predicament". meanwhile, no tears lost for what mrs khobragade went through, presumably because she is "corrupt and moronic".

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:55

This perception building power is with the Media.

Most of our media are well known sellouts and House slaves of the gora admi. Gora Admi controls his own media(and therefore creates the perceptions of 'others' ).
Perception creation is a cottage industry. It has a bunch of Gora admis and an associated coterie of MUTU non-goras. These MUTU non-goras leach money and live in the comfort of the west. They are true House slaves.

Very few (eg: Modi) have gone against a sold out MUTU media and won unscathed. If Modi comes to power, he has to make sure none of the people who land in India come from that cottage industry.

This cottage industry has to be de-legitimised and severely ridiculed. All this should have automatically happened if we had a good set of post colonial thinkers, an area that we sorely lack to this day.

EDIT: Rajiv Malhotra can be considered as a post-colonial thinker. He is the only one who has so far found a voice, thanks to social media.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 08:57

So washinton post weighs in http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/natio ... story.html

On a phone so can't quote but it has a quote saying devyani could've been asked to leave the country. Arresting her is very strange and not done usually.

Relevant officials in the administration have known for months that an investigation was underway, but “nobody knew this was going to happen,” another U.S. official said. Referring to Khobragade’s arrest, made after she dropped her children off at school, and her booking, strip-search and incarceration in New York, the official said, “That’s not the way these things are done.”

“If they wanted to throw the book at her,” the second official said, the United States could have protested to the Indian Embassy in Washington and “made her leave the country. That’s the way these things are done,” particularly in cases in which no physical abuse is alleged.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Dec 2013 08:57

SSridhar wrote:I think we are putting too much focus on a district attorney, howsoever powerful or popular he is. An event of this magnitude could not have happened without an approval from the South Asia desk in the State Deptt or even higher. The DA is a willing accomplice or an unwitting tool and in the process is trying to garner reflected glory for his personal benefit, perhaps. We have to get to the bottom of this to understand who, within the SD, did indeed sign-off or even initiate such an action. KC Singh said in the debate that the push came from top down.

PB is a US Attorney for a federal district which is different from a local district. He has a penchant for going after Indians or Indian origin people. He was involved with the Rajat Gupta case. I do agree the US Dept. of State is giving him a free hand to do the dirty work to torpedo US-India relations. There is no choice, but for diplomatic retaliation.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 20 Dec 2013 08:57

There's a gap between what the state department spokes-person is saying and what some of our media seems to be reporting - for example, the US is clearly not walking away from the statements of Preet...

Devyani case: No apology or withdrawal of charges, says US

"We take these allegations very seriously. We're not in any way walking back from those allegations or the charges. Again, this is really a law enforcement issue," the State Department spokesperson, Marie Harf said.

"No," she said when asked if Khobragade would go "scot-free".

Refuting that charges against the diplomat could be dropped, she said: "I don't know the details of the complaint, and I don't know if even withdrawing the complaint, which I'm not saying anybody is considering, would, in fact, drop the charge. That's not something that's even being considered."

"We certainly take these types of allegations very seriously though. It's not a decision for us whether to prosecute or not," Harf said.

She said that the US informs annually every country who has diplomats there through diplomatic notes about "obligations they have for their staffs when they bring them to the United States". (Devyani Khobragade arrest: No special treatment to US diplomats at airports from Thursday night)

"We make those obligations very clear and we take any allegations that they haven't done so very seriously. So certainly, there's no discussion like that going on. We just want the process to move forward," she added.

She refused to distance the State Department from alleged highly rhetorical statement of Preet Bharara, the US prosecutor handling the case, as was being reported from India. (No need to take Preet Bharara or his comments seriously: Salman Khurshid)

The report came following the telephonic conversation between the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, Wendy Sherman, and India's Foreign Secretary, Sujatha Singh.

Contradicting Salman Khurshid's statement, Harf said no telephonic conversations between him and John Kerry was planned and nothing is scheduled as of now. "No plans (for Kerry) to (call Khurshid)," she said in response to a question.

"I mean, he (Kerry) is always open to, but I think there was some misreporting out there today that he maybe was planning to, and that's just not the case," she said.

Khurshid in a media interview in Delhi had said that he was scheduled to have a call with Kerry. Kerry is on a year-end family vacation and would return to Washington after holidays, she said. (Diplomat arrest row: US looking for positive outcome, say sources)

He had called the National Security Adviser, Shiv Shankar Menon, a day ago and expressed regret over the alleged mistreatment of Khobragade.

The Indian diplomat was allegedly strip-searched after her arrest on visa fraud charges. His call had appeared to calm down the sudden eruption of a highly-charged situation between the two countries.

"We are conveying repeatedly the same message, both about our regret about what happened, but also how we move forward from here."

"That's a consistent message we are conveying diplomatically through proper diplomatic channels to the Indian Government," she said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 08:58

nachiket wrote: . . . the South Asia desk of the SD has always been Pak-pasand and naturally anti-India. Now the SecState is also Pak-pasand. They all probably jumped at the opportunity to humiliate India and torpedo US-India relations when they found out what Bharara was trying to do.

nachiket, there have been periods when the SD had been more venomous than its normal venomous self against us. Like, for example during the reigns of Robin Raphael (Asst Sec for South Asia) or Madeline Albright et al. I suspect that we are in the midst of another such cycle especially because of Af-Pak. So, what could have been handled easily otherwise is being blown way out of proportion to instill sense into India.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 08:59

Dipanker wrote: Please do not question my patriotism, I consider myself as much Indian as anybody else on this forum if not more. But I am certainly flabbergasted by so many irrational responses on this thread and else were by my fellow Indians.

If it has not sunk in yet, this thread is about considering India as ONE unit and not about exposing splits in India for the US to exploit and then calling it rational.

These are two different issues, and you need to go to another thread to pontificate on the issues that you are really concerned about.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:00

looks like local media is scoring a "win" for some face saving, all is ok onlee. whereas US media is not showing any such move.

ssridhar, looks like you are right saar, and which is why IFS tied this to ms sujatha singh having communicated india's stand on bangladesh.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 09:01

I wonder what President Obama or the VP thinks about all this?

And where are the so-called "Indian Lobby" Congressmen and Senators, hain? The HAF? The OFBJP? Overseas INC? And on that note where are the usual bytes from FOIL/SAJA ityadi? So many fair weather friends we have..... truly blessed we are hmmm?.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:02

As the US makes it clear that they will not drop the case or apologize, and while I do not see Dr. K to do time in a US Federal Prison, a guilty verdict will have repercussion all over the world and cause India to lose face. This will please India's enemies and bring down India's prestige. What are India's options:
1. To use the artha dand. US undersatnds this the most. Are there contracts that can be cancelled? Can there be policies that if adopted will cause long term and visible loss to the US economy? How are these going to affect India's economy? Are there other areas that India can stop cooperating? Thousands of Indian Students are going to the US, and slight screw tightening will have some effect.
2. Another way is to start protests all over the country. If effigies of OBAMA are burnt all over India, and in this Mr. Karat and his gang can help, giving plausible cover to MMS. US was giving reports how they are so popular in India, and so unpopular in Pakistan/Afghanistan.
3. As suggested catch US diplomats doing wrong and arrest. But they will be careful now, and time is a factor.
4. India can withdraw diplomats, but other than escalating I do not see any resolution to the situation.
Gautam

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Dec 2013 09:02

^^^It should be pointed out to the DoS and SoS, that if DK is not unconditionally released, then the US-Afghan security agreement will not have India's endorsement.

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:02

But this is a welcome moment to learn about the true colors of Amirkhan who is always plotting against Indian interests since 1947. The only question is how to retrieve our Diplomat to safety in India quickly and retaliate after that. There is no point in pretending nothing happened since Amrus believe softness = = weakness.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 09:02

I think USA is sending a messge to Indian bureaucracy that Sonia is compromised and GoI cannot protect anybody. They can gangrape a Indian diplomat with impunity.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 09:03

saip wrote:
I don't have that kind of money, try selling that to our corrupt and moronic politicians and our corrupt and moronic diplomats who have landed us in this predicament.
Kiddo, I am an American and dont understand what 'our' means. Agreed 'our' politicians are as corrupt and moronic as 'your' politicians and they got us into this mess.

Saip, I am pretty sure I am older than you! And when I use the term "our" I mean us Indians ( you obviously are not included in since you say you are an American).

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 09:03

My big worry is whether this mother of two would land in Prison... It would be a very long sentence if she ever does.

It also would set create another "lever" of control and pressure to apply on diplos with foreign postings by any tom dick and harry in any other country. Which is another real and clear danger of trying to seek Amru "jushtice" in this case.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Dec 2013 09:04

U.S. Embassy Prostitution

The U.S. Embassy in Tokyo has had its share of problems. In the early part of this decade, the embassy paid-for-dormitory for domestics (so they did not have to live with their diplomatic masters) was found full of women not connected with the embassy, some of whom were prostituting themselves on and out of U.S. government property. The public restroom just outside the dorm was a known quickie spot for night time taxi drivers looking for sex. Things were handled nice and quietly by State and the story stayed out of the news and out of the taxpayers’ attention.

http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/1 ... r-indians/