India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:05

I dont think pressuring the House Representative/Senator will do much good since these are well choreographed moves to humiliate India. What options are available for PIO/NRIs to express support for strong action by GOI?

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 20 Dec 2013 09:06

Guardian says GoI's inquiry into US embassy's salary practice in India will be "embarrassing" for embassy as they underpay SDRE's. This explains why State Department has realized the mistake while the attorney's office is preaching holier than thou from the pulpit.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... t-new-york

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:06

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

check out the comments. all the usual suspects doing their spin.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 09:06

From the link posted in the previous post - this is the state depts view - essentially the indians can talk all thy want, we don't consider their version is true and even a hc statement is "intimidation"

Harf, in a State Department briefing, disputed much of the Indian version of events.

Although she agreed that the case “goes back many months,” she said it was “highly inaccurate to say we ignored any Government of India communiques on this issue. Period.”

“I think it is accurate to say that our law enforcement authorities and the government of India have had some different interpretations of the issues and allegations at play throughout this entire scenario.”

Harf also confirmed that Richard’s husband and children were now in the United States, after being issued visas by the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi. She declined to provide specifics but said, “We are aware of the existence of allegations that the family was intimidated in India.”

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:07

Anindya wrote:
. . . She refused to distance the State Department from alleged highly rhetorical statement of Preet Bharara, the US prosecutor handling the case, as was being reported from India. (No need to take Preet Bharara or his comments seriously: Salman Khurshid)
. . .
Contradicting Salman Khurshid's statement, Harf said no telephonic conversations between him and John Kerry was planned and nothing is scheduled as of now. "No plans (for Kerry) to (call Khurshid)," she said in response to a question.

"I mean, he (Kerry) is always open to, but I think there was some misreporting out there today that he maybe was planning to, and that's just not the case," she said.

Anindya, two things here. The refusal by the SD to distance itself from the DA's statement confirms that it is a joint operation, premeditated and well planned. This has been gamed and somehow the US is confident of Indian vulnerability. I am now convinced that DK is a bait to extract something significant from India elsewhere. The US, or any other country for that matter, would not go to this extent for a maid.

Second, Salman made a faux pas in the TV interview when he said that a call would materialize today between himself and Kerry after having snubbed him the previous day. He should not have let that out but simply said that at a convenient time there would be discussions at a higher level. You cannot expect to snub another perosn and not expect something in return especially when the equation is quite difficult,

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:10

SSridhar ji, isn't that good though? GOI can't declare mission success with some nice phone calls (as always) and there will be public pressure to see the matter through.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:12

krithivas wrote:Guardian says GoI's inquiry into US embassy's salary practice in India will be "embarrassing" for embassy as they underpay SDRE's. This explains why State Department has realized the mistake while the attorney's office is preaching holier than thou from the pulpit.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... t-new-york

And, the deadline ended yesterday for the US embassy/consular offices to submit that report. Until last evening, the US had not submitted that report.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:13

Indian government officials told the Guardian that they were "hurt and shocked".

"No Indian diplomat has been treated this way for decades. [The US] is our friend and strategic ally and you can't just treat a friendly country's representatives like this. This is major, major ill treatment and is totally inexplicable," one said.

Wake up call? Friend, strategic ally, totally inexplicable? Is this for public consumption or did our bureaucracy really think this?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:13

SSridhar wrote:
krithivas wrote:Guardian says GoI's inquiry into US embassy's salary practice in India will be "embarrassing" for embassy as they underpay SDRE's. This explains why State Department has realized the mistake while the attorney's office is preaching holier than thou from the pulpit.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... t-new-york
And, the deadline ended yesterday for the US embassy/consular offices to submit that report. Until last evening, the US had not submitted that report.

How do we know the figures are accurate as well.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 09:15

KM sir,

From talking to my FB gang and also looking at twitter. Many Indians have started showing Cognitive Dissonance (since they themselves grew up with maids taking care of them). But before this incident most were gung ho about the US and how the US is one great nation and all that.

This is why we should ban CNN and BBC from India. They are nothing but weapons of mass MUTUization.

My point being: If average Indians were this gung-ho one cannot expect our diplos and officials to be that different, they are from the same stock aren't they?

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 09:16

Rest assured, all iz well. These are the same people who sent Italian marines home for Christmas

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 09:16

Dipanker wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:
At the end of the day, this is a jingo forum.

If India were to be the worst, most exploitative, caste-ridden, dirty horrible country in the world, with only greedy and abusive people, and if US were to be the most egalitarian and humane regime in the world and there is a power play by the US against India, whose side will you take? That is the spirit of the discussion here.

I know what my answer would be. Do you?
Please do not question my patriotism, I consider myself as much Indian as anybody else on this forum if not more. But I am certainly flabbergasted by so many irrational responses on this thread and else were by my fellow Indians.

I am an irrational jingo. Love is irrational. Legalistic hoo-ha is fine but India's interests come first.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 20 Dec 2013 09:17

LokeshC wrote:
Dipanker wrote: Please do not question my patriotism, I consider myself as much Indian as anybody else on this forum if not more. But I am certainly flabbergasted by so many irrational responses on this thread and else were by my fellow Indians.
If it has not sunk in yet, this thread is about considering India as ONE unit and not about exposing splits in India for the US to exploit and then calling it rational.

These are two different issues, and you need to go to another thread to pontificate on the issues that you are really concerned about.

Unfortunately the jingoistic prescription of forum can lead to even bigger loss of face for India. We need to handle this very carefully.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Dec 2013 09:19

Karan M wrote:
Indian government officials told the Guardian that they were "hurt and shocked".

"No Indian diplomat has been treated this way for decades. [The US] is our friend and strategic ally and you can't just treat a friendly country's representatives like this. This is major, major ill treatment and is totally inexplicable," one said.

Oh I hope they don't drink the American kool-aid about "strategic-allies". I was sure at least the babus understood it was all for show.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 09:19

Dipankerji,

Why are you afraid? The US has already pushed us into a corner. There is nothing much to lose anymore and the life is in question of a mother of two, who by all means is innocent in this drama. What if this was your daughter or your sister?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:19

A

Karan M wrote:
SSridhar wrote:And, the deadline ended yesterday for the US embassy/consular offices to submit that report. Until last evening, the US had not submitted that report.
How do we know the figures are accurate as well.

Of course, cross-checked with the Indian employees. Anything above Rs. 10,000 must be paid through checks. Otherwise, they are in violation of Indian law.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:20

As much as it surprises me, its the guardians posters who seem to be the most rational of the lot so far in analyzing this incident. Or perhaps, its because they can stick it to the US..but this one time, they are not revelling in sticking it to India as well.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... t-new-york

Eitherways, much better than the racist commentary in most US news sources pouring venom on India, Indian faiths and Mrs Khobragade herself.

LokeshC, saar are they localites based out of India? If so, truly we have issues as a nation if our educated behave this way.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:22

SSridhar wrote:Of course, cross-checked with the Indian employees. Anything above Rs. 10,000 must be paid through checks. Otherwise, they are in violation of Indian law.

Good point sir, but I wonder at how much pressure via gifts etc will be put on respondees to hide things. Perhaps offers of trips abroad too like the other Mr Richards. I hope this matter is investigated and enough details emerge to show that this agreement re: wages was two way, and Mrs Khobragade was no "evil human trafficker" as is being subtly implied by news sources.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Dec 2013 09:24

KM saar,
My sample demographics consist of mostly city based IT (ex-IT folks) and some rural folks from my state.

The rural folks are on about how grand the local politicos daughters cousins wedding was.

The city folks are the ones that were gung-ho

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:25

guys, please lay-off from each other. It distracts the focus and derails the thread. Take it as a warning.

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:25

The news papers in the US are now full of articles like this:
"http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/pos ... its-wrong/
Why India is upset about Devyani Khobragade, and why it’s wrong
By Swati Sharma"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/1 ... 65358.html
"Devyani Khobragade Says She Faced Cavity Search In NYC; Outrage In India After Diplomat Arrested
By NIRMALA GEORGE 12/18/13 05:53 AM ET EST AP"
Notice both give US view of the situation, but are written by Indian Journalists.
Gautam

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Dec 2013 09:26

and women

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:31

Good point sir, but I wonder at how much pressure via gifts etc will be put on respondees to hide things. Perhaps offers of trips abroad too like the other Mr Richards.

No worries saar, half of them are raaw only.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 09:38

Dipanker wrote:Where did rumor of cavity search start?

http://www.thestatesman.net/news/30760-india-us-talk-steps-to-end-stand-off.html?page=4

The US Marshals Service has, meanwhile, denied that Ms Khobragade was subjected to a cavity search, as is being alleged.
“In reference to your question about the cavity search, the answer is no,” Ms Nikki Credic-Barrett, spokesperson of the US Marshals Service, told PTI in Washington tonight. She, however, confirmed that Ms Khobragade was subjected to a strip-search.

Did you n6t read Email by DK posted here? Its not rumour but a fact. Amikhan agencies are prone to human rights violations and such extreme inhuman procedures on aliens and even on their own citizens. Read links posted by me earlier, if you can.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 20 Dec 2013 09:39

Did you guys check out the Indian express today (on line version). Most of the time, the headlines is screaming the US perspective and not the Indian one. As soon as the issue broke out it wrote an asinine editorial blaming DK and talking about ill-treatment of the maid. It has also prominently published Preet Bharara's rhetorical defense, but had not provided space for the Indian response (at least I couldn't find it yet).

It did publish a couple of columns subsequently supporting the Indian point of view. But the focus of the paper is overwhelmingly to perpetuate the American fraudulent perspective.

Even the poll's question is "Do you think Indians should be more upset about how the Indian diplomat treated her domestic help than her arrest and strip search?"

We can clearly see where the loyalties of Shekar Gupta and Indian Express lie?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Dec 2013 09:40

Najunamar wrote:KLMurthyji! +1000

Janani Janmabhoomischa swargadhapi giriyasi - may be Nepalese motto but mine as well...

OT but those are words of Lord Shree Ram which he said to Lakshman in context of his longing for going back to Ayodhaya after the war with Ravana.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 09:44

The TimesNow report on Sangeetha Richards did not go very far right?
I mean, where is she from? What's the history with her family and the diplomatic circuit? Why is that angle not aggressively pursued by the media... at least the Indian Media?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:45

dear dipanker, the lady herself mentioned it in her letter, so it's not a rumour but a fact. secondly, US has changed its stand on this topic 3 times, even now 2 wings have different versions of what happened. given the amazing competence shown by US authorities in making up stories anyone with an iota of brain knows which is the correct version.

which is that USMS in its over-zealousness treated her like a petty criminal but overstepped its mandate and is now trying to backtrack without losing H&D, just like SD is trying with its 'distancing'

MurthyB wrote:I thought that Indian leftist libtards in India were bad, but the very worst ones appear to be NRIs and PIOs in the US, with their whole hysterical outrage over the $3 bucks an hour the poor maid was being paid, with the remaining $6 presumably hidden in DK's various orfices, and the sanctity of US "law". What a nauseating spectacle.

the tragedy with India is that some Indians bat for china and some for US, no one bats for India.

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 20 Dec 2013 09:45

Dipanker wrote:Unfortunately the jingoistic prescription of forum can lead to even bigger loss of face for India. We need to handle this very carefully.

WTF is loss of face for India? For heaven's sake, there is a woman of two children who is subjected to what in India is called Rape and is now prisoner with the rapists. If she is not protected and brought back safely to India, that is a MUCH bigger loss than anything else. Even assuming that she underpaid the maid, US could have simply sent her back instead of subjecting her to things which they would usually subject known drug peddlers and other assorted criminals. Dipankar, you are spouting plain, unadulterated BS. Please stop, does not help anyone. The problem here is no more Indians subjecting maids to harsh treatment and what not - the issue is way beyond that. CTs aside, this is plain and simple illtreatment of a diplomat. I am not sure if we have to be careful here, mark my words, the US will be the ultimate loser here though we may have short term issues to deal with.

On the other hand, I hope the ADA/IAF/MoD are already considering an alternative to GE414s......

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 20 Dec 2013 09:46

I will trust the written report because Americans don't play the stupid games Devyani or for that matter of fact GoI let Indian diplomats play and walk into such land mines. I fully support Devyani's unconditional release and demand an apology for her custodial rape. But technically she "lied" because GoI was casual with the legalese. It works well if the waters are calm. Americans never will entangle themselves into such stupidity even for expediency sake. Any written submission from USA will have the i's dotted, t's crossed, legally vetted, thorough, water tight and clean.

Karan M wrote:
SSridhar wrote: And, the deadline ended yesterday for the US embassy/consular offices to submit that report. Until last evening, the US had not submitted that report.
How do we know the figures are accurate as well.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 20 Dec 2013 09:47

So USA media that goes about minority rights in India or NGOs who work on women's rights seem to work only in India. Not one word from moral keepers on mistreatment of the lady diplomat. There seems to be disconnect between reasons for the mistreatment as standard procedure and when was she arrested. So in USA being most progressive and superpower, laws are same for all only. Also there seem to be no idea of not having done drugs or possession of concealed weapons for whole life, may be since minority is assumed at maximum to be as civilized as most civilized majority. There seem to be no difference at all! Aren't professionals usually more sensible in USA?

Najunamar · Post by **Najunamar** » 20 Dec 2013 09:48

I do think the people in India have figured out the feeble attempts by the quislings in the paid media, the 2 non-negotiable demands from GOI is resonating with everyone (well almost everyone if you discount the MUTU traitors). Also, there are supportive assertions from other heads of state as well which for obvious reasons have not been voiced in the paid (read sold out) media of both countries.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:48

GSarkar ji, I think it was Derrick Bell who said the first thing the powerful do, is to find people from the weaker side to speak on their behalf, hence confusing the issue. Looks like that playbook is in operation. Indian journalists trotted out to weaken the Indian side.

Ms George, "explaining India" onlee...
1. Fear of public humiliation
2. Police normally mistreat onlee poor
3. Middle class woman publicly arrested and strip searched

hence outrage.

Khobragade's case has touched a nerve in India, where the fear of public humiliation resonates strongly and heavy-handed treatment by the police is normally reserved for the poor. For an educated, middle-class woman to face public arrest and a strip search is almost unimaginable, except in the most brutal crimes.

The first article by Ms Swati Sarkar is so pathetic and arrogant (Indians this, Indians that), that it doesnt even deserve dissection. Looks like another ma'am sitting in the US and trotted out for the job at hand. To put the blame on the Indian side.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 09:51

hulaku wrote:@krisna

Thats a good point. I wasnt aware of that.

But then we do know how babudom protects its own. And the judiciary also likes to play along sometimes.

And a general question what does MUTU mean ?

That is why you were advised to read last few pages. Ignorance is not amusing here and it constitutes trolling.
You are questioning the Indian processes and accepting Amirkhan processes without question. I don't know that babudom or judiciary does in a manner as you say. I see contrary examples a lot. So there is no merit in what you say. But does that justify the violation of Vienna convention on Consular relations and arrest a consular in the most inappropriate manner without following the convention and rape a diplomat in custody?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:52

krithivas wrote:I will trust the written report because Americans don't play the stupid games Devyani or for that matter of fact GoI let Indian diplomats play and walk into such land mines. I fully support Devyani's unconditional release and demand an apology for her custodial rape. But technically she "lied" because GoI was casual with the legalese. It works well if the waters are calm. Americans never will entangle themselves into such stupidity even for expediency sake. Any written submission from USA will have the i's dotted, t's crossed, legally vetted, thorough, water tight and clean.

Not too sure about that, krithivas ji. From reports, it was a game both sides played and the guardian report (linked earlier) says that even US has the same issue with folks in India. Also, my point was that India has asked for data to be submitted, byt how do we ensure the data is correct. That requires more legwork on India's part.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Dec 2013 09:52

krithivas wrote:I will trust the written report because Americans don't play the stupid games Devyani or for that matter of fact GoI let Indian diplomats play and walk into such land mines. I fully support Devyani's unconditional release and demand an apology for her custodial rape. But technically she "lied" because GoI was casual with the legalese. It works well if the waters are calm. Americans never will entangle themselves into such stupidity even for expediency sake. Any written submission from USA will have the i's dotted, t's crossed, legally vetted, thorough, water tight and clean.

so US people are saints.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Dec 2013 09:56

As per Kabil Sibal on one of the news channel, the next hearing has been scheduled for 13th January and if the US Court was to pronounce the verdict, then no one in USA can do anything. The window of opportunity is between Indian diplomat being shifted to US Mission and the next hearing date.

But what we need to understand is whether the diplomatic immunity will be applied in retrospect. I think the course of action when Devyani receives the complete diplomatic immunity is for her to fly out to India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 09:58

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/samajwadi-pa ... 37-64.html

Amid outrage over the ill-treatment meted out to diplomat Devyani Khobragade in the US, Uttar Pradesh's minister for urban development and minorities welfare Mohammad Azam Khan on Thursday offered her to contest in next year's Lok Sabha polls from Rampur on Samajwadi Party's ticket.

"If she wishes she can resign from her job and contest next year's Lok Sabha election from Rampur on SP ticket and reach Lok Sabha where she can strongly lodge a protest against the treatment meted out to an Indian diplomat", Khan said.

He said that the US has been continuously treating the Indians indecently and recalled as to how he also had to face such a treatment on his visit there in the past and had strongly protested against it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2013 10:01

rohitvats wrote:As per Kabil Sibal on one of the news channel, the next hearing has been scheduled for 13th January and if the US Court was to pronounce the verdict, then no one in USA can do anything. The window of opportunity is between Indian diplomat being shifted to US Mission and the next hearing date.

But what we need to understand is whether the diplomatic immunity will be applied in retrospect. I think the course of action when Devyani receives the complete diplomatic immunity is for her to fly out to India.

RV, you know after this incident, I think the manner in which MMS & co tied India to US Arms procurement is really going to harm us. It basically gave them additional leverage which they didn't have till date. They stop/delay spares for our C-17s, C-130s - those are white elephants. Only if the GOI/MOD had chosen EJ for the LCA instead, at least its good luck, that MMRCA went French.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 10:01

Dipanker wrote:
venug wrote:Why dont you ask her? Or go back read the pages, seems like you havent been doing the reading. Start 20 pages back. She was missing when The diplomat filed missing complaint. What do you term it? An excursion party? Or a stroll ?
I am aware of the issue. My point is that Sangeeta Richard is an adult. If she does not want to work for DK, it is her prerogative. Can you deny that?

She was on Official passport with express purpose of domestic help to DK on contract and paid pretty good amount by Indian standards and total value of payouts and perks including free house, living in posh locality, , food and what not with more money if needed and as and when asked for, being treated as a member of family, she was well paid and cared for. She could not have done any other work except as mentioned in visa and if she did she would have been liable for deportation. Being on official passport she was under custody and care of DK and hence not returning back warrants search and report to appropriate authorities. Had she not done it would have constituted another charge against DK. Had she agreed to outside work as requested by SR DK would have been charged with visa violation. She avoided these traps which would have been laid by SR on advise of her attorneys with missionary zeal.

So answer to your question is yes she absconded, bolted in violation of passport and visa conditions.