India-US Strategic News and Discussion

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 20 Dec 2013 14:32

Tick tock. Tick tock. 8 days and GoI had done nothing in way of retaliation of the US government sponsored/directed custodial rape of Dr. DK.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2013 14:33

No shortage of stupid Indians who would see one house burning, just because thye hate one or theother family member.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Dec 2013 14:35

Devyani Khobragade urged to stand for parliament

(Reuters) - The Samajwadi Party has urged Devyani Khobragade, the woman at the centre of a diplomatic storm in the United States, to stand for parliament, highlighting how public outrage has turned the case into a battleground for votes ahead of next year's election.

<snip>

"Because of the election, they will try to outdo each other," said Neerja Chowdhury, a political analyst and a former political editor of Indian Express newspaper.

"They don't want to be seen as weak on the issue when the mood in the country is one of huge anger about this."

The regional Samajwadi Party offered to put Khobragade up as a candidate in the election, due to be held by May, in one of the parliamentary constituencies in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh, whose voters could swing the outcome.

<snip>

Competition for the votes of low-caste "Dalits", who account for about 16.5 percent of the population, is intense.

"Had it not been for the election, or had she come from an upper caste, this would not have gained mass appeal. It's a very competitive time and all the parties have to show a pro-Dalit face," said Ajay Gudavarthy of the politics department at New Delhi's Jawaharlal Nehru University.

Breathless and indignant coverage by Indian TV news channels of the diplomat's ordeal at the hands of U.S. marshals has added to a sense that national pride has been wounded.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2013 14:36

Prasad wrote:Forget that. Burkha tweets that GoI has conveyed to the US that the maid is an employee of GoI. Not sure how that works with whatever documentation was submitted during the visa process. GoI employee means she doesn't come under us law of course.

Again, if the maid was being paid there, she might have filed tax returns. Or atleast gotten her w-2 form. That would be very interesting if and when produced by either side. Although the wage issue isn't really being denied by ex-ifs and diplomats.

If she was carrying an official indian passport (red) then yes, she is an employee of the GOI. if her visa is on the Blue passpost, then she is a pvt individual, in her pvt capicity.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 14:36

One point that mediawallahs, including NYT editorial writers, have made is that this is unbecoming or improper conduct for India, which is, after all, a great country blah blah blah. Effective rejoinder to that is, since Indians are a disproportionately huge chunk of humanity, the standard for "becoming" or "unbecoming" conduct is, by definition, set more by Indian conduct than by a bunch of goras who are doomed to be extinct anyway. We, in other words, are the world, a lot more than they are.

We might condescend to have a conversation with the Chinese about what constitutes world's norms about how to act in cases like this, but that's about it.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 14:38

A question- Under Indian law even if a Criminal case is registered arrest is not essential what is the position under US laws? Is arrest essential?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 20 Dec 2013 14:40

KLNMurthy wrote:
RCase wrote:SS - Driver might be Indian, but memshahib will be inconvenienced waiting in the hot sun for a few hours no? Driver can be offered chai biskoot. This will be the trailer of what the movie might be if a 'serious' charge is uncovered.
If "they" can plant servants, why can't "we" plant servants also, hain?

Raw agint "chikna" young driver goes to work for known gay official, and brings charges of gay sexual harassment / forced sodomy against said official, who is then hit with Sec 377 (which is not applied to chikna lad since he was unwilling victim onlee) and the rest of the IPC in dealing with rape charges. When unkil protests that it is a he said-he said situation with no objective proof, gently explain that due to recent emphasis on punishing sexual offenses (thanks to progressive light shown by none other than unkil himself) it is now the practice in india to give maximum weightage to victim's statement in such cases.

That will rub it in .... Ombaba intends to send gay stars to the Sochi Olympics to show how evil Russia is.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2013 14:41

Vic ji,

Imo, bringing us law in not relevant to this issue, as doing so, makes us play the us game. We must make the point clearly and unambiguously that the us has no authority to do what it did.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2013 14:42

Even worse -

burkha dutt on twitter wrote:India conveyed to the US in writing in October that sangeeta richards employee of GOI not to be covered by US law

Well well.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Dec 2013 14:46

the 'great and the good' in the US are wondering why india doesn't poodle over like everyone else and just take it (after all - the other poodles do)
now this case has got everyone's chaddis in a twist and no one knows how to get out of it

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Dec 2013 14:46

pankajs wrote:1.20 pm: Law will take its own course, says Shinde on domestic help case Talking to reporters in New Delhi, Home Minister Sushilkumar Shinde said the government will not interfere in the case against Devyani's domestic help. "Law will take its own course," Shinde said. The Delhi Police had in October registered an FIR against Sangeeta Richard and her husband Philip Richard after a complaint by Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade.

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/world/devyani- ... ef_article

I have talked to some Indian lawyers, and they tell me that FIR was registered under very serious offences against Philip Richard in Delhi and it is very extraordinary that he was not arrested immediately and was even able to leave India (inspite of Devyani father repeatedly calling up the DCP) Strongly suggests that there were instruction from above to let him leave or some serious bribe money was paid at multiple levels.

Therefore me thinks, that a stage is being set to blackmail India into some serious strategic concessions on the pretext that this controversy will harm Congress election prospects. Munna would be ever ready to oblige.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Dec 2013 14:47

KLNMurthy wrote: Raw agint "chikna" young driver goes to work for known gay official, and brings charges of gay sexual harassment / forced sodomy against said official, who is then hit with Sec 377 (which is not applied to chikna lad since he was unwilling victim onlee) and the rest of the IPC in dealing with rape charges. When unkil protests that it is a he said-he said situation with no objective proof, gently explain that due to recent emphasis on punishing sexual offenses (thanks to progressive light shown by none other than unkil himself) it is now the practice in india to give maximum weightage to victim's statement in such cases.

This actually reminds me of an incident - where else - in Moscow; the KGB used such 'chikna' model(s) to entrap an Embassy official in ahem-ahem acts and told him such acts are illegal in USSR. They got him to spy for USSR both while in UK Embassy in USSR and when he went back to UK.

Here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Vassall

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 14:52

There goes the low wage case. As GOI employee you are entitled to peanuts only. After all how much a Cabinet Secy Rank officer would make>> 90,000 Rs + DA(90%)=1,71,000/60=$2850 PM/30*8=$11.75 per hour assuming 30 days and 8 hours.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 20 Dec 2013 15:00

Lalmohan wrote:the 'great and the good' in the US are wondering why india doesn't poodle over like everyone else and just take it (after all - the other poodles do)
now this case has got everyone's chaddis in a twist and no one knows how to get out of it

There is a way out. They can say sorry and fire Bharara (or someone) as a scapegoat. It's a question of not wanting to do the right thing.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Dec 2013 15:03

Our beloved FM on telly just now hummed and hawed as if in total obeisance to the Yanquis,whom he spoke of with great respect,how Kerry graciously spoke to our NSA in the "middle of the night",for us that is,not even having the decency to call at a more civilised hour!
Anyway,the UPA led by USA Singh after a decade of subserviance to Uncle Sam, "India loves you" and all that bull,cannot be expected to respond with the firmness and toughness that the situ demands.The Opposition will have to help the regime stand straight and firm.The US is not going to budge.It must realise that if it continues with its neo-colonial imperialistic stance,it will lose the friendship of the world's largest democracy swifter than it can imagine.

The GOI must draw up a measured scale of fitting responses as the US this latter day pharaoh ,"Hussein" O'Bomber, "hardens his heart".With each passing day and no apology,the GOI must ratchet up further punishment for US diplomats.The strip searching and "cavity inspection" (and we're not talking of dental inspections!) of all US diplomats entering and leaving India must be the very first step.

The attacks against US food chains is only the beginning.While one abhors violence,it is not the right way to respond,more extrme methods of protest are bound to happen given the insult to injury that the US has inflicted on our diplomat and the nation.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 15:07

CT # 793:

Maybe they are gauging our response - like the ChiComm do with their regular border acupuncture experiements? I mean, highly respected ex-President, a ridiculous political boss from the S.P., a burning-out DM and a hamming-happy Bollywood m-m-m-megastar all evoked nary a response..... now how about a female diplomat? This time with extra love?
They have done things like this to gauge our response before.... but it's the first time a diplomat has been targeted.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Dec 2013 15:10

^^^ I can't and don't approve of violence. Do something like cancelling orders for Boeing and buy Airbus instead or such.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 15:13

If there is no sense of outrage among some members or some sections of deracinated Indians I am willing to post graphic pictures of actual body cavity searches carried out by US enforcement agencies while "processing" ( as if they are cheese and not human beings) . The pictures are certain to offend the sensibilities of any decent man, that is.

There was not only strip search but body cavity search which majority of Amricans themselves find repulsive and have successfully sued the responsible agencies Adherence to Vienna convention would have ensure that DK was not put to undue harassment and custodial rape .(sorry Theo, it constitutes that in Indian Penal Code and One Indian is subjected to that and that is a crime anywhere in the world)

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 20 Dec 2013 15:18

CT#794:

1. The politicos did not expect they will be here, in this position, today.
2. They probably knew DK would be arrested and all that but thought the incident will receive as much attention as the others in the past
3. Then the unexpected happened. The IFS cadre enmasse must have sent messages to the Politicos that if they dont move their collective arses on this one, the IFS will vote enmasse against the CONgis in 2014, drag other indian civil services with them, allow uncomfortable details about the CONgis to surface or be conveniently leaked to the media.
4. The politicos are in this against their will..wishing this would all go away. Thats why the retaliation this far has been limited to withdrawing special privileges that were extended. No real retaliation has happened. Yet.
5. The Americans probably know that the indian politicos are caught between a rock and hard place. They dont have to do anything to help..its up to the politicians to find a way out for themselves and the U.S.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 20 Dec 2013 15:28

With respect to American foreign policy in South and Central Asia, we poor brown SDRE were the veritable Shmoo..... now the Shmoo just got kicked around enough to turn into a raging Kigmy.

Parkalaam.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Dec 2013 16:21

Rajiv Malhotra weighs in with some good recommendations:

Khobragade row: India must try good-cop, bad-cop approach with the US

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Dec 2013 16:32

Just to throw a spanner into the works: what is DK's salary? I believe it's ~INR 50K can't be sure whether it's monthly (should be) and what that translates into USD/hour

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 20 Dec 2013 16:36

^^^ She is an Indian gov employee deputed to work for India, hence governed by Indian rules an salary structure.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Dec 2013 17:01

Why didn't the Indian government think of evacuating Devyani fearing intimidation from the US, as has now turned out to be a reality ? Warning signs of impending US intimidation in the case seem to have been around for a few months.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2013 17:05

As is the maid. As she is carrying a government employees passport. The US has no authority to act on behalf of the maid. As long as she carries the govt employees passport. T

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2013 17:10

Arjun wrote:Why didn't the Indian government think of evacuating Devyani fearing intimidation from the US, as has now turned out to be a reality ? Warning signs of impending US intimidation in the case seem to have been around for a few months.

And give in to US bullying tactics. Hell no, this must be allowed to play it self out. As it will set a judicial precedent. The thing is that international relations are governed by reciprocity. If the stupid yanks are not following Vienna convention. It will remove the onus from the rest of the world to to follow the convention WRT, the Americans.

Say bring it on.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 20 Dec 2013 17:12

Going forward, India needs to come out with a clear policy aimed at protecting the human rights of its diplomats stationed in regressive nations that are known to conduct "orifice searches" on the general populace.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 17:18

Cosmo_R wrote:Just to throw a spanner into the works: what is DK's salary? I believe it's ~INR 50K can't be sure whether it's monthly (should be) and what that translates into USD/hour

Given somewhere on the net as $4150/= per month.

Whereas maid was first contracted for $4500/= per month onlee for visa purposes

May be first post or niti central

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 20 Dec 2013 17:20

If she is released and she is interested to come back to India then India should send a IAF Passenger Jet(One used by PM and other dignitaries) with fighter escort from outside US airspace (Mid Air refuelling done in Iran Airspace- just for the kicks!!).Give MSM exclusive rights for the duration on plane. Make a media spectacle. Von Clausvitz. Total F8cking War!!

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 20 Dec 2013 17:20

one more twist. Devyani's husband is a US citizen

Devyani case: Why the US needs to apologise quickly!

Making matters more complex -- and perhaps the reason why India was reluctant to simply pull Dr Khobragade out of the consulate to safety once it was known that the case against her was fairly serious -- is that her husband is a naturalised US citizen.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 17:24

Cosmo_R wrote:Just to throw a spanner into the works: what is DK's salary? I believe it's ~INR 50K can't be sure whether it's monthly (should be) and what that translates into USD/hour

Why do you want to rub salt on the injury.

Its peanuts when compared to what two bit employee in same rank would be paid in US, probably even less than a minimum wage nanny.

ps. could be $1000+ PM as salary in desh and about <$5000 as allowance in NYC ( differs from postings and places). rough idea.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Dec 2013 17:27

Rony wrote:one more twist. Devyani's husband is a US citizen

Making matters more complex -- and perhaps the reason why India was reluctant to simply pull Dr Khobragade out of the consulate to safety once it was known that the case against her was fairly serious -- is that her husband is a naturalised US citizen.

Times have changed. IFS never used to allow spouses with foreign citizenship.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 17:28

Rony wrote:one more twist. Devyani's husband is a US citizen

Devyani case: Why the US needs to apologise quickly!

Making matters more complex -- and perhaps the reason why India was reluctant to simply pull Dr Khobragade out of the consulate to safety once it was known that the case against her was fairly serious -- is that her husband is a naturalised US citizen.

If it turns out to be true, papa khobragade ki jai ho.

He is truly a mahatma

Added later.

Adarsh flat and US citizenship in one fell swoop

He has truly exploited all available loopholes and then some.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 20 Dec 2013 17:29

No, ~~M K~~ K R Narayanan had foreign spouse. Needs to be cleared before marriage can be solemnised.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 20 Dec 2013 17:32

By the way consulates in India are probably closed or almost empty as staff may have returned for Christmas. Hope Khurs$it is not going around asking for answer, b'cas he is not going to find anyone except Indian watchman at the front gate. That makes timing of this ideal from bharar's pov.

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Dec 2013 17:32

Cosmo_R wrote:
Rony wrote:one more twist. Devyani's husband is a US citizen

Making matters more complex -- and perhaps the reason why India was reluctant to simply pull Dr Khobragade out of the consulate to safety once it was known that the case against her was fairly serious -- is that her husband is a naturalised US citizen.
Times have changed. IFS never used to allow spouses with foreign citizenship.

GOI needs to change its rule back to the status quo ante and ensure that Indian diplomats do not have foreign spouses.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 17:34

chaanakya wrote:No, M K Narayanan had foreign spouse. Needs to be cleared before marriage can be solemnised.

Yes, Sirjee.

But not MK but KR Narayanan, the late un lamented President

Lots of precedents onlee and this sort of drama seems to have started way back with another great mahatma the one and onlee Jawahar giving personal permission for KR Narayanan's marriage to a foreigner. And we all know how that turned out

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 17:36

arun wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:{quote="Rony"}one more twist. Devyani's husband is a US citizen

Making matters more complex -- and perhaps the reason why India was reluctant to simply pull Dr Khobragade out of the consulate to safety once it was known that the case against her was fairly serious -- is that her husband is a naturalised US citizen.{/quote}

Times have changed. IFS never used to allow spouses with foreign citizenship.
GOI needs to change its rule back to the status quo ante and ensure that Indian diplomats do not have foreign spouses.

No need to change rule sir, such a rule is already existing. Exception is getting permission prior to marriage to a foreigner.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 20 Dec 2013 17:37

14:45 Diplomat arrest: We will find a solution to the issue, says Khurshid: Minister of External Affairs Salman Khurshid says it is important to preserve the relationship between India and US.

He, however, refuses to comment on the US's refusal to withdraw charges against Khobragade.

As we deal with each other we have to keep entire gamut of our bilateral relationship in mind, says Khurshid.

look at how tone down the language is

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Dec 2013 17:39

krishnan wrote:
14:45 Diplomat arrest: We will find a solution to the issue, says Khurshid: Minister of External Affairs Salman Khurshid says it is important to preserve the relationship between India and US.

He, however, refuses to comment on the US's refusal to withdraw charges against Khobragade.

As we deal with each other we have to keep entire gamut of our bilateral relationship in mind, says Khurshid.
look at how tone down the language is

Doesn't want to jeopardize any foreign income to his NGO setup, no?