India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Dec 2013 02:49

Some very exciting CTs doing the rounds but my personal opinion based on chats with some lawyers is that this is a classic case of a ROL maid who sees a pot of gold in the US due to instigation by her EJ friends in the church, becomes disgruntled because she wants to get out of current arrangement without being shipped back to India (maybe it was heading that way), is helped by powerful EJ orgs who manufacture atrocity stories and then throws her employer under the bus. The disgruntlement against employer must have built up (refusal to allow her to work on days off - she could earn 10-15 per hour; passport situation which must have felt constraining). It is clear that Sangeeta Richards was exposed to new opportunities and did not want to leave the US.
The 10,000 dollars was probably lawyer fees from these EJ groups to help ROLM get the passport. When she did not get the passport she was advised to leverage the "trafficking" meme to stay in the country even illegally.
Husband knew about this ongoing racket and the reason he was shipped out so hurriedly from the country was so that he would not croak when arrested in India + some of the EJ bandwagon must have seen a really good story in this (rescue good ROLs from heathen slavers). This is probably because some of these EJ groups are really really powerful, well connected to the US consulate and probably very active in the Indian hinterland (think Maoists and the others).
I do not believe that Sangeeta Richard or hubby are spies. They were at the right place at the right time.
The interesting aspect of this story that is not being addressed is "which church did Sangeeta Richards go to (they are the Indians Preet Bharara is alluding too), who is the EJ network she tapped into and how do they operate in India?
I am not surprised that the US consulates gave a trafficking visa - EJ folks.

I believe that Preet Bharara is an innocent party in this in that his office received a complaint from powerful groups and if he had not acted he would be tarnished as one not acting against slavers in his community. This can go both ways.

Anyways, my two cents. My only big doubt is "Why did the US media not start spinning on this as soon as they received a whiff of it"? It was such a good story for the EJ gang.

I know this is not as exciting as some of the CTs doing rounds but it speaks to a very powerful framework already in place that responds quickly to anything that will put an atrocity spin. The Sangeeta Richard episode was not pre planned. It spontaneously emerged out of a gridlock that sifts for such themes and is built to develop a negative narrative around races and civilizations that are target. As in Bob Marleys song about the Babylon System - Church and university.

By focusing on this one episode we are missing the larger picture where output from such a system integrates seamlessly with our beliefs about ourselves and contributes to massive faultlines in India.
It is the same system that instigates the church goers in the Northeast to split from India and spit on the traditions of their forefathers. It probably did not require much with ROLM who already aligned to it but think of the impact of such an incident on the Indian poor. Claim atrocity get visa + US is protector of Indian poor.
Again, I repeat this is not a one off planned incident. This is a production line of memes and actions.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Dec 2013 03:05

Official American position on Devyani!

Statement Of Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara On U.S. V. Devyani Khobragade

Whole of the salary of the maid was for keeping. She probably didn't have to pay for living, food, medicines, normal clothes, city travel, postage, travel to and from India. The maid was even given a personal iPad. And the Americans are calling this exploitation!

Americans should pay for the custodial rape of Devyani!

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Dec 2013 03:13

^^^ The whole episode was designed as a lose-lose situation for India and the problem is that any interaction of India with the west is a default lose-lose for us however the media may spin it.
This is because since Indira Gandhi not one Indian leader has had the foresight to dismantle some of the underlying gridlocks of the system by which the west interacts with India. We just respond but the response itself turns out to hurt us - damned if you do and damned if you don't.
You want to stop these millions of woodpeckers, you need to create counter framework or hurt them where it hurts the most. Till then all our efforts are like taking water out of boat with a pail. The primary source of power is not the weapons and resources but the perception of the west (the deep psychological impact on our psyche).

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Dec 2013 03:17

I must say that I like to believe myself above parochialism of any sort. It seems to be a dirty word in both the US and India but I do have a very strong liberal perspective.

However I am concerned about any possibility of a free trial for this lady. The US is a Christians nation as its Christian never tire of promulgating. The women in question is a threat to their order of things, being a Dalit in India as well as in the US.

Further there is a major issue of marijuana smoking in the US that has a direct bearing on this case.

Also would the American cultural characteristic of dealing in trafficked human beings to perform menial tasks at exploitative rates be admissible in court, as a reflection of community standards?

Finally India needs to put those barriers back up at the US embassy. There are hundreds of thousands of Afghans and also disgruntled Muslims in Delhi and environs.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Dec 2013 03:19

The primary source of power is not the weapons and resources but the perception of the west (the deep psychological impact on our psyche).

Someone above queried about the cultural inability of Indians to deal with Americans:It is this obvious.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Dec 2013 03:32

sanjaykumar wrote:Finally India needs to put those barriers back up at the US embassy. There are hundreds of thousands of Afghans and also disgruntled Muslims in Delhi and environs.

The barriers should be back if -

1. Similar barriers are put up near the Indian embassy in DC. India has lost more people to disgruntled Muslims than USA. OR

2. USA pays for the barriers and ongoing rent for that street.

If the embassy in India is thought to be that insecure, the location should be sold and new facilities created elsewhere.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Dec 2013 03:33

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/12/1 ... 0B20131219

Column - Retroactive immunity for Indian consul Khobragade?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Dec 2013 03:37

^^^ Removing the barriers was a bit silly and a bit obvious. If our GOI was really nationalistic, they would have tut tuted and given the US diplomats a tough time through indirect channels (Shivaji style). The world would have got the message. But that requires a far thinking government and a group of elected reps who are united in the face of external adversaries (mayavati included should know that this jingoism will weaken the nation). I guess what we got is the optimal given our current situation.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Dec 2013 03:39

I think this is a misunderstanding of the role of the US attorney. As far as I know they prosecute federal criminal law only at the local level. They can not in themselves deport or take action in immigration status. Also while the state dept signed off that DK did not have immunity. AFAIK that was the only involvement. There is no evidence Kerry was involved at such a relatively low level arrest. DSS can not arrest. US Marshals conducted the arrest on behalf of US attorney. The US attorney has stated that only a strip search was conducted, no cavity search.
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Rohitvats,

While you have your mod hat on please also comment on the wild speculation on NRI & PIO types posted on this forum with zero evidence. These things have real consequences. The average American can not differentiate between a Zeya or Geeta or a Sarita. When folks start tarring and labeling one, the average American goes after all. I have mentioned many times that dark skin types have repeatedly been targeted just because they have a strange sounding names or wear some strange dress. We are such a small minority that it it doesn't take much to wipe us out. A Ramaswamy is just as much fair game as a Rahim. All this speculation is feeding right into that stereo-type.

Again these things have real consequences for NRI/PIO types. Please cease this evidence free speculation.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Dec 2013 03:42

DSS agents did arrest DK.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressre ... tement.php

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Dec 2013 03:45

Madhusudhan wrote:This has been an eye opener to me. Maybe I am just slow but I truly regret voting for democrats in the past. I shall vote for Republicans in the future. The condescension the liberals have shown to India and Indian culture has been disgusting. At least the right-wing nutcases are useful idiots. We should just learn to mould them to serve useful purposes like the Israelis have learnt.

Devil and deep blue sea. It was the Republican-nominated Supreme Court justices that in 2012 made strip search without reasonable cause the law of the land.

PS: But for the aforementioned Supreme Court ruling, I submit we would not have heard of this story, except in some minor press release. The US Marshal Service would be still bound by its 2010 rules which state that a strip search can be done only if there is a reasonable suspicion of contraband, weapons or the risk of escape, suicide or security threat. DK would have been arrested, released on bail; the boffins in the Ministry of External Affairs and the US Dept of State would have quietly worked out something; if it was Uzra Zeya's or whomever's idea to get the Richard family to permanent residence in the US, that would have been accomplished, all quietly, without press.

What they forgot is that after the Supreme Court ruling, the US Marshal Service made the strip search routine, instead of exceptional circumstances only. That blew the whole thing out of control.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Dec 2013 03:47

Jarita wrote:^^^ Removing the barriers was a bit silly and a bit obvious. If our GOI was really nationalistic, they would have tut tuted and given the US diplomats a tough time through indirect channels (Shivaji style). The world would have got the message. But that requires a far thinking government and a group of elected reps who are united in the face of external adversaries (mayavati included should know that this jingoism will weaken the nation). I guess what we got is the optimal given our current situation.

If they had even temporarily shut down their visa section with the excuse that they had to focus on security issues, the tables would have very easily turned. A lot of the hawks would have very quickly become obsequious doves in the face of the US bound aam jantha uproar.

The US embassy et al in India has been very circumspect.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 22 Dec 2013 03:50

MEA should release a press note with the details of prevailages given to US diplomats vs Indian diplomats in US... This will make the US media n people understand ... Still better if MEA can present cases where the US diplomats were not prosecuted for breaking the Indian law ...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Dec 2013 03:54

Mahesh_R wrote:MEA should release a press note with the details of prevails yes given to US diplomats vs Indian diplomats in US... This will make the US media n people understand ... Still better if MEA can present cases where the US diplomats were not prosecuted for breaking the Indian law ...

It will only expose our uncle toms and shows us in a bad light.

Why the hell do we not prosecute routinely when our laws are broken?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 22 Dec 2013 03:59

The average American can not differentiate between a Zeya or Geeta or a Sarita. When folks start tarring and labeling one, the average American goes after all. I have mentioned many times that dark skin types have repeatedly been targeted just because they have a strange sounding names or wear some strange dress. We are such a small minority that it it doesn't take much to wipe us out. A Ramaswamy is just as much fair game as a Rahim. All this speculation is feeding right into that stereo-type.

Americans are more sophisticated than this, barring the stray case. Surely those of us who identify ourselves as Hindus may eventually have problems but I would expect Christian Indians to be exempted.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 22 Dec 2013 03:59

^^^ still better but the US media will go on saying we did this due to DK case they fail to understand every diplomat is the same and they are superior for 1000's of reasons....

On 18th timesnow newshour GP was mentioning abt warranty on PB for undermining Indian judiciary and sending the notice to Interpol.. Atleast this will make people like him to think twice next time...
I am not sure how far it's possible but GoI Atleast should do this to teach PB a lesson ..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 22 Dec 2013 04:19

Theo_Fidel wrote:<SNIP>Rohitvats,
While you have your mod hat on please also comment on the wild speculation on NRI & PIO types posted on this forum with zero evidence. These things have real consequences. The average American can not differentiate between a Zeya or Geeta or a Sarita. When folks start tarring and labeling one, the average American goes after all. I have mentioned many times that dark skin types have repeatedly been targeted just because they have a strange sounding names or wear some strange dress. We are such a small minority that it it doesn't take much to wipe us out. A Ramaswamy is just as much fair game as a Rahim. All this speculation is feeding right into that stereo-type.

Again these things have real consequences for NRI/PIO types. Please cease this evidence free speculation.

TF - before I present my reply to your post, I think it is important that I state my position on the subject.

First - From the employer-employee relationship perspective, there are two aspects two the case. First is the document submitted to the US Embassy for gaining the A-3 Visa for the maid and the compensation mentioned therein. Second, the real agreement signed with the maid basis which the maid actually agreed to take up the employment.

From an American legal perspective which is based on testimony of only the maid and the documents which she stole from Diplomat's house, there is a violation of their law. The defendant's lawyers can argue whether the American law applies or whether the maid was mistreated and stuff like that. This is the technical aspect.

Second is the moral aspect - by all accounts available so far in the media, the maid was treated well. And the salary agreed upon in Indian currency was paid to her.

So, when I support the Indian diplomat, I do so knowing that she did not violate her agreement with the maid - the technicality of American law notwithstanding.
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Second - the treatment meted out to the Diplomat. As far as I'm concerned as an Indian citizen, Indian diplomat was ill-treated and she was not accorded the courtesy deserving of her official position. This part is not even about immunity or any such stuff. Simply about one nation treating the Diplomat of other nation. All the jazz about equality of American law and stuff does not apply. Because this is not an American citizen we're talking about. Or even common Indian citizen on US soil.
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Third - Given the way event has unfolded dramatically with interesting names & inter-linkages coming to fore, various supposedly conspiracy theories are within the realm of possibility. I profess that EJ angle seems to be a bit far-fetched to me but given the way peels are coming off, I would not be surprised if some connection is thrown up.

Frankly, the whole event has simply too much clockwork precision for it to be a random event originated by some low level officer in USA.

Unless the whole picture comes to fore, there is bound to be speculation. And various theories.
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Now, coming to your post.

Let's look at the NRI/PIO angle - There are many NRI's who for one reason or other are supporting the maid. Please see the Facebook page created to support the maid and check the participants to the 'cause'. A substantial number are NRI/PIO. And they have been going hammer-and-tong about the prevalent culture of abusing maids, high-caste-low-caste and stuff like that relating to India. And are somehow equating the case about the maid with these.

So, pardon me or anyone else who takes umbrage at this holier-than-tho attitude and besmirching of India's and country's name.

As for impact on these people - Well, I fail to understand how discussion on this board affects NRI/PIO in USA? Even if it does, the 'labeling and tarring' happening is because these people are showing themselves to be more American than the Americans. So, why would they feel threatened by local population? After all, Indians in India are against such NRI/PIO who have taken a stand against the official position of GOI.

Unless, you mean that any protest against USA by desis will boomerang on NRI/PIO in USA; well, I don't think a nation's honor and self-respect can be sacrificed at the altar of well-being of few individuals. I would especially be least worried about PIO for they are Americans after all...they loyalty and allegiance lies with America and it is for the much vaunted American legal system to protect them.
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From a moderator's perspective, I'll ensure that no personal attacks happen on posters on BRF as well as lines are not crossed. But what you state cannot be implemented for that is under the aegis of airing an opinion. Which everyone does on this forum.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Dec 2013 04:20

If DK's husband works at a university, http://www.winemedia.com.au/clients/siw ... thore.html
the (non)-affordability of NYC minimum wage argument has much less force.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 04:34

A_Gupta wrote:If DK's husband works at a university, http://www.winemedia.com.au/clients/siw ... thore.html
the (non)-affordability of NYC minimum wage argument has much less force.

He is wine guy! I can have long chats about grapes like Mourvedere, Tempernillo and Grenache with him once all this blows over!!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Dec 2013 04:35

Lastly, what of Sangeeta Richard and her family? Frankly, their migration project is complete. India will never see them again.

They have set the precedent for others such "trapped trafficked and abused servants" (as per Uzra and others of State Department) of Indian diplomats to follow. Diplomats should be extra careful of other such people.

Fact is that for economic gains people will use all kind of nefarious means to emigrate to USA. How does the Government of India stops them and makes sure that they emigrate legally?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 04:39

If US wants them why should India stop them?

India should have used vetted employees and send them as staff.
This is a self blow.

One good thing out of this is all the MUTUs jumped out of the bushes everywhere to defend massa's interests.

sanjaykumar, Need to restrain the tongue in cheek!

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Dec 2013 04:42

Rohitvats ji, I commend you for that excellent post.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Dec 2013 04:46

While I am all for non exploitation, and sure it does take place in India, but I am sick and tired of seeing Indian uncle toms and naive chutiyas and brown Sahibs fall for this exploitation crap as the reason for this custodial rape of Devyani

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/opini ... right.html

Another one of those attempts to look at India from a US lens. There is another interesting cultural angle here. For the vast majority of Americans except those few who see India's POV, this whole things is about casteist Hindus exploiting the weaker, and the exceptional America coming to the aid of the exploited maid.

But lookd at it dispassionately, the maid was compensated quite well if you account for all the perks, much more than Indian servant maid would get. At the heart of the maid's fraud is her desire to get a green card and use this phony exploitation BS. In the current charged atmosphere, Americans and their mouthpieces simply cannot see this angle.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Dec 2013 04:47

by A_Gupta
Devil and deep blue sea. It was the Republican-nominated Supreme Court justices that in 2012 made strip search without reasonable cause the law of the land.

Because Islamic terrorists were hiding RDX in their orifices to bomb civilians! Only a Democrat state department will use this "tool" for diplomatic reasons.

At this case Democratic party will implement Sharia law here in USA in less than 20 years!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Dec 2013 04:55

chaanakya wrote:
CRamS wrote:
Who is this Ms. Zeya and how is she relevant to DK case?
Read from here

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1562708

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1562703

Thx a lot. Since she is so concerned about human rights that supposedly justifies the custodial rape of an Indian diploma for violating "human rights" of the maid, does this 2-bit entity have much to say about human rights of US, and in most recent times, U's gang rape and destruction of an entire civilization in Iraq?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Dec 2013 04:59

Whomever the Richard family friends are in the US Department of State (Uzra Zeya), those friends are prima facie abusing American law - I am not a lawyer so I cannot be certain.

E.g., here is a manual on the T-visa:
http://aaldef.org/docs/T-visa-manual-3r ... 208%29.pdf

"While most trafficking cases do involve some form of labor exploitation, labor exploitation does
not always rise to the level of trafficking. Labor exploitation involves extremely low wages, usually below minimum wage, long hours, poor working conditions, lack of avenues of redress, and may be linked to various forms of mistreatment of immigrants. A situation becomes “trafficking” when it involves the use of force, fraud or coercion that creates a climate of fear preventing the individual from leaving the situation. It is important to screen individuals presenting with labor exploitation claims for trafficking. "

As far as I can tell, labor exploitation does not qualify for a T-visa.

http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_typ ... tent-13638
T-visa provides for a four year stay.

T-visas allow victims of severe forms of trafficking to stay in the United States for four years from the date the T-visa application is approved. However, sometimes it can be longer than four years if a law enforcement authority certifies (officially states) that having the victim remain in the country for longer is necessary for investigating or prosecuting the crime.

No doubt Mr. Bharara would be willing to do that certification. I think one reason they will not back down about dropping the case against DK is that without it, perhaps the T-visa will expire.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... visas.html

Human trafficking under U.S. law is defined based on the 2000 UN Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons. The elements of the crime fall into three categories:

* Process: recruitment, transportation, transferring, harboring, or receiving of a person.

* Ways and Means: threat, coercion, abduction, fraud, deceit, deception, or abuse of power.

* Goal: prostitution, p---ography, violence and sexual exploitation, forced labor, involuntary servitude, debt bondage, or slavery

Adult victims of human trafficking must prove that the crime involved at least one element from each of the above three. Child victims of human trafficking need only show an element from the Process and Goal categories.

----
PS:

Derivatives living abroad will need a valid passport or a waiver of the passport requirement in order to enter the U.S. in T status. Such applicants will undergo a detailed interview at the appropriate consular post. The derivative should not be asked about the underlying trafficking of
their family member and is not required to know the details of their relative’s experience.
only relevant questions should be to confirm the relationship with the principal applicant.
lationship with the principal applicant.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Dec 2013 05:07

A_GuptaJi,

As your posts indicate, and GP as always keenly observed on TimesNow, this T-1 BS was invoked by overzealous "South Asians" like PB and UZ wanting to prove their credentials by going after some weaklings like DK.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Dec 2013 05:23

CRamS wrote:A_GuptaJi,

As your posts indicate, and GP as always keenly observed on TimesNow, this T-1 BS was invoked by overzealous "South Asians" like PB and UZ wanting to prove their credentials by going after some weaklings like DK.

But in doing so, have they themselves broken US law? It would seem to me that at a minimum they have stretched it to the limit.

Politically, PB, UZ are Clintonistas, as far as I know. Therefore, if there is substance to this, then alerting a Republican operative would result in whatever unofficial investigation is possible. As you are well aware, both Democrats and Republicans are desperately seeking dirt on each other's prospective Presidential nominees for 2016.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 22 Dec 2013 05:31

ramana wrote:From Shekar Gupta's oped looks like LKA put those barricades despite MEA advice in 2001.

he got paid back for the kindness.

No, it was Tejinder Khanna.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 05:37

Manu wrote:
ramana wrote:From Shekar Gupta's oped looks like LKA put those barricades despite MEA advice in 2001.

he got paid back for the kindness.
No, it was Tejinder Khanna.

yes the Ashok Malik article also confirmed it as a zealous Lt Gov of Delhi!!!

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Dec 2013 05:52

I think this MUTU labeling has gone overboard. People need to accept that theirs is not the only point of view possible and stop labeling others whose view differ from theirs. I consider myself more Indian than any of the jingos on the board.

I personally thought that so called "action" taken by GOI was foolish which only invited an even harder slap from Uncle. How exactly did that serve national interest? Or for that matters how would national interest be served by escalating it even further, which many on the forum it seems passionately want? Let somebody explain that. Only thing it would do is it would only harm our national interest much more. Thankfully we are in damage control mode now.

We need to choose our battle more carefully, at this point in time we are not in a position to challenge Uncle Sam. Need of the hour is to be pragmatic.

And lastly our national interest should not tied to some IFS officer's need for using cheap labor in place where it is statutorily not permitted.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Dec 2013 05:56

Karan M wrote:Hmm yes JEM...one wishes they'd be rational about this and behave so. Only thing is judging from their past incidents like this (there was a link earlier on in this thread), they seem to revel in power...
One only hopes our babus have taken this issue to heart and understood what all those strategic ally and other fancy terms are really worth.

Our relationship with the US is and will continue to be extraordinarily valuable, call it strategic or whatever else. Given the difference in our economic strengths they will continue to extract more than they give. Fixing that is our job. All that said, it's behooves India to set a precedent that she will not allow her diplomats to be treated in such fashion.

My personal opinion is that the US will allow our consul to wriggle out somehow. While they're prone to delusional grandstanding and even blunders like this (I agree with JEM here) they're not fools. This has all the ingredients to seriously damage the Indo US relationship, which I think neither side desires.

While the treatment of Devayani is unfortunate, this presents us with an opportunity. A good one to remind the US that there is a cost associated with such behaviour. This will only serve the relationship well.

The amount of self flagellation and cries of MUTUs and secular congis on this forum, although expected, is hard to understand. The same was made during the case of the italian marines. We pretty much barred their Ambassador from leaving and got the marines back. The US is not Italy, but a price they will pay.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Dec 2013 05:59

Dipanker wrote:I think this MUTU labeling has gone overboard. People need to accept that theirs is not the only point of view possible and stop labeling others whose view differ from theirs. I consider myself more Indian than any of the jingos on the board.

I personally thought that so called "action" taken by GOI was foolish which only invited an even harder slap from Uncle. How exactly did that serve national interest? Or for that matters how would national interest be served by escalating it even further, which many on the forum it seems passionately want? Let somebody explain that. Only thing it would do is it would only harm our national interest much more. Thankfully we are in damage control mode now.

I agree with most of what you say except

We need to choose our battle more carefully, at this point in time we are not in a position to challenge Uncle Sam. Need of the hour is to be pragmatic.

And lastly our national interest should not tied to some IFS officer's need for using cheap labor in place where it is statutorily not permitted.

This is a matter of principle. If there is a cost associated with having to stick with that, it must be paid. Our national interest is tied to how our diplomats are treated. Our national interest is tied to enforcing reciprocity in our relationship with the US. Our national interest lies in guiding our relationship with the US towards one of mutual respect. That serves both our national interest well.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Dec 2013 06:13

More

Looks like DK's husband authored this book

http://www.amazon.com/Buddha-his-Dhamma ... 839&sr=1-1

B.R. Ambedkar's magnum opus, The Buddha and his Dhamma, was barely completed before his death and was published posthumously in 1957. The book is known for Ambedkar's review and analysis of the vast Buddhist canon and literature. This is the first critical edition of The Buddha and his Dhamma. Along with a new Introduction, it includes footnotes indicating sources and annotations explaining various topics of discussion. The annotations provide useful information on canons like Suttas and Dhammapada indicating their authoritativeness in the Buddhist tradition and discuss the modifications effected in Ambedkar's use of the source material. An analytical index helps locate various passages and themes in the original text.

and

this book

http://www.amazon.com/Global-Justice-Cr ... 839&sr=1-2

Global Justice: Critical Perspectives (Ethics, Human Rights and Global Political Thought) [Hardcover]

and

http://www.amazon.com/Wronging-Rights-P ... 839&sr=1-3

Wronging Rights?: Philosophical Challenges for Human Rights (Ethics, Human Rights and Global Political Thought) [Hardcover]

This becomes weirder and weirder and weirder

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Dec 2013 06:15

KrishnaK wrote: This is a matter of principle. If there is a cost associated with having to stick with that, it must be paid. Our national interest is tied to how our diplomats are treated. Our national interest is tied to enforcing reciprocity in our relationship with the US. Our national interest lies in guiding our relationship with the US towards one of mutual respect. That serves both our national interest well.

The problem here is that this is 3rd incidence in as many years, first it was Prabhu Dayal, then Neena Malhotra, and now DK.

The outrage this time was more because DK seems to very well connected. What has gotten her into a bigger soup is waving of non bailable warrant against SR and her family from obtained from some magistrate in Delhi. Such blatant display power and privilege a la Indian style, can only invoke scorn from people who normally otherwise be sympathetic to her cause.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 22 Dec 2013 06:24

Interesting to see people trying to twist this into an abuse by DK of her maid, her connections, and her power as a diplomat. I thought and still think this is about an abuse by the US of arresting and cavity searching an Indian diplomat, MUTUs notwithstanding.

Everything from the US, including MUTUs, has indeed been "post facto rationalisation of an action that should never have taken place in the first instance".

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Dec 2013 06:25

Clintonists were already with Islamists (he failed to kill Laden, etc) though border line! Obama has taken it too far!! So each time US people vote Democratic party Islamists will win! BEWARE!

Bush Jr. was good for India and GOI and Indian diplomats should have capitalize on that so that these type of issues don't arise but!! we are LED BY AN ITALIAN BORN MORON! that has put in charge a DHIMMI MORON WHO CAN ONLY YELL "DEH SHIVA BAR MOHE" in parliament against its Dharmic opponents but will not do the DEED against the real enemies!

SAD STATE!

Republicans are for making money (capitalists) and thus with Businesses (cheap labor or production cost or whatever as long as profit is guaranteed) as oppose to Democrats who are with Trade unions (free sops, free other garbage) and thus against Business!

Muslims cannot arise above working as a labor in the factory due to their religious beliefs and thus they support Democratic party in US! and they will thus support such parties who give them free stuff everywhere in the world (congress in India, Liberals in Canada and UK and so forth).

Anybody that lives off without working is not DHARMIC! i.e. you must work (KARM)

That is the crux of it! and Miss Uzra otherwise is ZERO but for her connections with Obama is doing whatever she can for her Islamic terrorist brothers!

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 06:28

Theo_Fidel wrote: While you have your mod hat on please also comment on the wild speculation on NRI & PIO types posted on this forum with zero evidence. These things have real consequences. The average American can not differentiate between a Zeya or Geeta or a Sarita. When folks start tarring and labeling one, the average American goes after all. I have mentioned many times that dark skin types have repeatedly been targeted just because they have a strange sounding names or wear some strange dress. We are such a small minority that it it doesn't take much to wipe us out. A Ramaswamy is just as much fair game as a Rahim. All this speculation is feeding right into that stereo-type.

Again these things have real consequences for NRI/PIO types. Please cease this evidence free speculation.

Very ironic post

.

This is the same case with a lot of brown sepoys shouting things like this from the rooftop: "we have hindu casteists saffronistas among us, they are everywhere", "we have hindus who only know to discriminate", "All south asians are rapists, India is a land of rape", "we still have slavery, mordern slavery"

What do you think the consequence of this would be to NRI/PIO types? If you are a Hindu NRI type, people will automatically stereotype a brown Hindu into a rapist slave owner. Even if they don't it will not even take a semblance of evidence for them to assume that a brown Hindu is a rapist. The jury will never be fair, for the jury never understands the cultural origins of that Indian defendant. That is as tangible a consequence can get.

These things have real consequences as well. Yet, it continues every day every night. Brown Sepoys cry their hearts out on what needs to be fixed in India, as if they are begging Amirkhan to fix it for them for they are incapable of fixing it, thereby reinforcing the image of the mighty whitey American who can walk into any geopolitical or socioeconomic situation and just "fix it". And it usually ends up like the movie "Team America" , you should watch it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 06:42

KrishnaK wrote:
The amount of self flagellation and cries of MUTUs and secular congis on this forum, although expected, is hard to understand. The same was made during the case of the italian marines. We pretty much barred their Ambassador from leaving and got the marines back. The US is not Italy, but a price they will pay.

Time will tell on your other points & hope that what you wish for comes true re: other points..

But re above, its not hard to understand at all, if you see the fact that this is one in a long line of similar incidents & the manner in which the UPA has either mishandled or been supine in foreign policy blunder after blunder. The Italian case issue is an outlier because of the media fracas associated with it, and lets face it, because they were Italians.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 22 Dec 2013 06:42

rohitvats wrote:Now, coming to your post.

Let's look at the NRI/PIO angle - There are many NRI's who for one reason or other are supporting the maid. Please see the Facebook page created to support the maid and check the participants to the 'cause'. A substantial number are NRI/PIO. And they have been going hammer-and-tong about the prevalent culture of abusing maids, high-caste-low-caste and stuff like that relating to India. And are somehow equating the case about the maid with these.

So, pardon me or anyone else who takes umbrage at this holier-than-tho attitude and besmirching of India's and country's name.

As for impact on these people - Well, I fail to understand how discussion on this board affects NRI/PIO in USA? Even if it does, the 'labeling and tarring' happening is because these people are showing themselves to be more American than the Americans. So, why would they feel threatened by local population? After all, Indians in India are against such NRI/PIO who have taken a stand against the official position of GOI.

Unless, you mean that any protest against USA by desis will boomerang on NRI/PIO in USA; well, I don't think a nation's honor and self-respect can be sacrificed at the altar of well-being of few individuals. I would especially be least worried about PIO for they are Americans after all...they loyalty and allegiance lies with America and it is for the much vaunted American legal system to protect them.
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From a moderator's perspective, I'll ensure that no personal attacks happen on posters on BRF as well as lines are not crossed. But what you state cannot be implemented for that is under the aegis of airing an opinion. Which everyone does on this forum.

I don't entirely disagree with your first three points but they are your opinion but this position is not sensible.
The vast majority of NRI don't care too much about the case and are busy with their lives and families.

I'm talking about evidence free speculation. Someone has a funny name, presumably muslim hence is called a paki, spy, islamist, etc with zero evidence. This is not opinion this is accusation. Someone has a funny name or funny skin and hence is considered suspicious. Normally I don't comment on this but this has real consequences for us in USA. NRI are still Indian citizens and pay heavy tax to India. Don't act like we all deserve cutleting. You don't know anything about loyalty and allegiance of these folks. These are the same folks who defended India after pokharan remember. Protest all you want but don't drag NRI/PIO types into your evidence free witch hunts. Already Nikki Haley has been asked distressing questions that American folk hear and ponder about.

Folks like me and many other NRI's live here. Many incidents have happened recently where Americans have gone after brown skins for being suspicious. It is regrettable if Indians themselves encourage this. Profiling is not opinion.