India-US Strategic News and Discussion

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Dec 2013 06:44

Dipanker wrote:
KrishnaK wrote: This is a matter of principle. If there is a cost associated with having to stick with that, it must be paid. Our national interest is tied to how our diplomats are treated. Our national interest is tied to enforcing reciprocity in our relationship with the US. Our national interest lies in guiding our relationship with the US towards one of mutual respect. That serves both our national interest well.
The problem here is that this is 3rd incidence in as many years, first it was Prabhu Dayal, then Neena Malhotra, and now DK.

The outrage this time was more because DK seems to very well connected. What has gotten her into a bigger soup is waving of non bailable warrant against SR and her family from obtained from some magistrate in Delhi. Such blatant display power and privilege a la Indian style, can only invoke scorn from people who normally otherwise be sympathetic to her cause.

Dipanker, I agree that we need to ensure that this doesn't happen again. As far as non bailable warrant, the DK side of the story is blackmail. I'm not sure whether that warrants a non bailable warrant or not. As far as displays of power and privilege is concerned, the US is very good at that game. In the Raymond Davis case, *blood money* was paid to get him out of trouble. Would the US allow that for anybody on US soil ? The reason it is hard to take US profession of outrage at displays of power and privilege is their expectation of privilege at the drop of the hat and then proceeding to ram it down everyone's throat. Have you forgotten the Union Carbide case ?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 06:45

Dipanker wrote:
KrishnaK wrote: This is a matter of principle. If there is a cost associated with having to stick with that, it must be paid. Our national interest is tied to how our diplomats are treated. Our national interest is tied to enforcing reciprocity in our relationship with the US. Our national interest lies in guiding our relationship with the US towards one of mutual respect. That serves both our national interest well.
The problem here is that this is 3rd incidence in as many years, first it was Prabhu Dayal, then Neena Malhotra, and now DK.

The outrage this time was more because DK seems to very well connected. What has gotten her into a bigger soup is waving of non bailable warrant against SR and her family from obtained from some magistrate in Delhi. Such blatant display power and privilege a la Indian style, can only invoke scorn from people who normally otherwise be sympathetic to her cause.

On the contrary, the outrage is because it was an attack on the Indian state and violated a bunch of internationally agreed upon conventions. That is the tangible cause for outrage.

Intangibles are the following. It reinforced the fact that the US considers us lesser than equals. It is also a punch in the gut because we would have followed the convention and gone an extra 10 miles to help, while they are holding us by non-applicable rules at the same time saying that Indian laws are all fake and useless. Basically we were taken for a ride all along and now we are being openly shown the idiots that we are.

Question: Do you read through the posts or do you just keep repeating

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Dec 2013 06:57

LokeshC wrote:Very ironic post .

This is the same case with a lot of brown sepoys shouting things like this from the rooftop: "we have hindu casteists saffronistas among us, they are everywhere", "we have hindus who only know to discriminate", "All south asians are rapists, India is a land of rape", "we still have slavery, mordern slavery"

What do you think the consequence of this would be to NRI/PIO types? If you are a Hindu NRI type, people will automatically stereotype a brown Hindu into a rapist slave owner. Even if they don't it will not even take a semblance of evidence for them to assume that a brown Hindu is a rapist. The jury will never be fair, for the jury never understands the cultural origins of that Indian defendant. That is as tangible a consequence can get.

These things have real consequences as well. Yet, it continues every day every night. Brown Sepoys cry their hearts out on what needs to be fixed in India, as if they are begging Amirkhan to fix it for them for they are incapable of fixing it, thereby reinforcing the image of the mighty whitey American who can walk into any geopolitical or socioeconomic situation and just "fix it". And it usually ends up like the movie "Team America" , you should watch it.

I've no idea where you get this drivel from ? I've never been called/treated as a "rapist slave owner".

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 07:03

There are a lot of online articles with people posting the filthiest abuse against Indians/ Indian society and bringing out some really nasty opinions on display. LokeshC may be referring to that.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 07:07

KrishnaK wrote: I've no idea where you get this drivel from ? I've never been called/treated as a "rapist slave owner".

No one will tell you that on your face, just like no one will call the "N" word to a black man. Has anyone in the US asked your "caste". I have been asked by a few people, but its rare.

If you have a few white friends, get them drunk. If they are close to you, you will come to know exactly what they think of us. Dont go by what they say to your face when they are sober, there are multiple layers of filters. Try making a few local american friends (i.e. guys like commercial food workers, chefs, waiters, painters etc), because they will be in a "jury of peers" that you select for your trial if ever there was one. Get close to them and you would know what they really think of you.

The issue is the stereotype that is being propagated, and its propaganda alright.

In about 5 to 10 years. Along with "what caste are you?" would come "do you people really deal in slaves?"

Example here: http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/17/world/glo ... ery-index/

EDIT: Another example: http://www.dw.de/modern-day-slavery-wid ... a-17180433

This is from a two minute google search. The irony is, the so called "slavery" in India is nowhere even comparable to what went on in the US history. Most Americans are historically illeterate, but they do know that "slavery"==bad and thats good enough for the stereotype to stick.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Dec 2013 07:08

@LokeshC

I express my way of looking it at things, it does not mean whatever I say are axiomatic facts, they simply are my opinion just as you express yours!

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Dec 2013 07:16

Jaritajis post on how the US system works wrt India was fantastic.Theres a well entrenched way in which US sees India and the response on most issues is almost automated.

Yet,it would be wrong to think that this response was automatic.The hatchet job on India's Deputy Consul cannot be an automatic response.

I think the sequence would go something like this:
a)The muslim Uzra Feya had cultivated christian maid in the well known tradition of Briturds and Americans cultivating Indian christians and Indian muslims.
b)S.Richard becomes maid of DK and reaches US.
c)S.Richard wants to ditch DK and become US resident.Most probably S.Richard was coached by fanatic christians in US.The US bleats about free market develops socialist tendencies in select cases.
d)A half baked report reaches US SD about the crimes of Hindoo diplomats.
e)Given the entrenched anti-India mindset of SD and current issues in BD and Afghanisthan,a decision is taken to teach Indians a lesson.
f)Biswal Desai cannot do a honest analysis,as she is a bigger Uncle Tom than PB.John Kerrorist is only too eager to sign off.

Having said all this,DK seems to be dumb.Its unforgivable with a US citizen husband who has gainful employment,and huge properties in India,she could not read the situation.We have to be politically correct but in jaundiced US eyes,DK would just be the type of Indian wanting to have the 'best of all worlds'.DK has been wronged,but she is dumb for the sensitive post she holds.We require better people than DK to represent us.The problem was building up.Perhaps she had dalit shindes support as well.She had an obvious interest in continuing to be in NY area.Talk of conflict of interest.I wondered why top officers did not transfer her.I think habalji was onto something,when JEMji warned habalji.

We cannot expect much from Congress Govt or even a BJP govt.

The entire Indian society looks upto US.Even in BRF,so many are Indian Americans or Indians in America.Does not Srikrishna say mangoabduls look upto shreshta-s.Orthodox hindus are among the most law abiding citizens in world who respect authority,duly constitued hierarchy.In India,technocrats,business leaders,dalits,NGOs,christians,press magnates,politicians,DMK,Hindu upper castes look upto US as innovators,source of technology/capital,trend setters.The pluralistic US society is admired for freedom it gives the indvidual to go about his life,for rule of law,for sexual freedom,for expressing oneself in arts and letters.Let us not forget the huge gujrati diaspora in US or that Arun Jaitley/Jaswant Singh too are admirers of US.Over and above these good reasons are sources of corruption-scholarships/fellowships for useless journalists/humanities people and travel junkets.

In our society,we know for sure that for many many people in our middle classes,US is the first choice as destination.Many a IIT graduate choses US as first choice.The sons of govt bureacrats chose US,true through the 'honest' STEM route.In the marriage 'market' a US son-in-law is preferred.

Naturally,mango abduls and even rif raff follow the shreshta-s or one should have inherited wealth in India.

As Nirupama Menon Rao tweeted,both govts need to introspect(Why GOI should introspect is not very clear) and the relationship is not for burning inspite of US support to TSP,intervention in BD,interference in Indias internal affairs.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 07:17

Theo_Fidel wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Now, coming to your post.

Let's look at the NRI/PIO angle - There are many NRI's who for one reason or other are supporting the maid. Please see the Facebook page created to support the maid and check the participants to the 'cause'. A substantial number are NRI/PIO. And they have been going hammer-and-tong about the prevalent culture of abusing maids, high-caste-low-caste and stuff like that relating to India. And are somehow equating the case about the maid with these.

So, pardon me or anyone else who takes umbrage at this holier-than-tho attitude and besmirching of India's and country's name.

As for impact on these people - Well, I fail to understand how discussion on this board affects NRI/PIO in USA? Even if it does, the 'labeling and tarring' happening is because these people are showing themselves to be more American than the Americans. So, why would they feel threatened by local population? After all, Indians in India are against such NRI/PIO who have taken a stand against the official position of GOI.

Unless, you mean that any protest against USA by desis will boomerang on NRI/PIO in USA; well, I don't think a nation's honor and self-respect can be sacrificed at the altar of well-being of few individuals. I would especially be least worried about PIO for they are Americans after all...they loyalty and allegiance lies with America and it is for the much vaunted American legal system to protect them.
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From a moderator's perspective, I'll ensure that no personal attacks happen on posters on BRF as well as lines are not crossed. But what you state cannot be implemented for that is under the aegis of airing an opinion. Which everyone does on this forum.
I don't entirely disagree with your first three points but they are your opinion but this position is not sensible.
The vast majority of NRI don't care too much about the case and are busy with their lives and families.

I'm talking about evidence free speculation. Someone has a funny name, presumably muslim hence is called a paki, spy, islamist, etc with zero evidence. This is not opinion this is accusation. Someone has a funny name or funny skin and hence is considered suspicious. Normally I don't comment on this but this has real consequences for us in USA. NRI are still Indian citizens and pay heavy tax to India. Don't act like we all deserve cutleting. You don't know anything about loyalty and allegiance of these folks. These are the same folks who defended India after pokharan remember. Protest all you want but don't drag NRI/PIO types into your evidence free witch hunts. Already Nikki Haley has been asked distressing questions that American folk hear and ponder about.

Folks like me and many other NRI's live here. Many incidents have happened recently where Americans have gone after brown skins for being suspicious. It is regrettable if Indians themselves encourage this. Profiling is not opinion.

You seem to be very selective here. Did we also not mention Mr. Preet Bahara?

Coming to the Muslim "Human Rights" person. Sangeetha's in-laws were employed there. That is evidence enough to speculate. Infact a couple of news articles (Ashok Malik, I think) speculates precisely that.

In addition I am flabbergasted that there is a "human rights" post in US embassy in India. That is direct interference with the functioning of the Republic and must be eliminated at any cost.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 07:22

Dipanker wrote:@LokeshC

I express my way of looking it at things, it does not mean whatever I say are axiomatic facts, they simply are my opinion just as you express yours!

Having an opinion is fine. But you are drawing the wrong conclusions from the evidence on the ground. I am sure there is someone in some corner of this earth that has the opinion that the sun really rises in the west. That is an opinion but its not based on the factual evidence.

The factual evidence of this case has been repeated ad-nauseum on so many pages and why the opinion you have is not relevant here. But yes, do feel free to post it here. Its a free country after all eh?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2013 07:24

Katare wrote:
ramana wrote:chetak, What relevance is the DK's property to this thread?

Do you want one step ban along with others?
Another example of moderator controlling the direction of discussion by threats. You make the environment for ppl with counter view points so hostile that they would choose to stay silent. DK's caught red handed lying in writing in both cases and she is being prosecuted for both. If that is not relevant what is? Wait - p0rn, slavery in US, a muslims, EJs, skin color are more important and relevant

Whar is an internal matter, should not be brought up in times like this. At the moment we don't know if she is guilty of wrongdoing in the adarsh affair. For all we know she saw an opportunity and took it. Without, being involved in any criminal activity.

Her guilt and innocence in this matter are for the Indian courts to decide. That too after being charged for the crime. None of that has happened. ?

So why this pont is repeatedly raised is some thing that is not understandable.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2013 07:31

With news that the NSA also snooped on the Israeli PM,US allies have been outraged at its blatant snoopin' on its closest pals,but if one carefully observes,Britain's GCHQ has been its clandestine partner in the scandal! The "4-eyes" only secreat agreemetn between the US,Canada,Oz and NZ and now some talk of bringing in SPore into the group,shows its racial bias,only WAP nations in the inner circle.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/1 ... istration/#
How The Obama Administration Is Trying To Stop The Next Edward Snowden
By Lauren C. Williams on December 20, 2013

Xcpt:

CREDIT: AP

National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden’s claim that he was exposing illegal and unwarranted government overreach was bolstered this week when a federal judge ruled Monday that the NSA’s mass surveillance is unconstitutional, and a White House panel released tough new proposals to reform the agency Wednesday. But the Obama administration, which has aggressively pursued whistleblowers since 2009, is making it clear that those who do come forward will face a battle.

District Judge Richard Leon’s decision, which called the NSA’s tactics “Orwellian,” was greeted by many as vindication of Snowden’s actions. “Edward Snowden is a patriot,” wrote the American Civil Liberties Union in a blog post. “Monday’s court ruling declaring the NSA surveillance program unconstitutional highlights the irony of the government’s prosecution of Snowden.”

The ruling comes a week after former intelligence workers released an open letter on December 12 in The Guardian, defending Snowden, Army Private Chelsea (formerly Bradley) Manning and John Kiriakou for exposing widespread government surveillance tactics, under-reported civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the systemic torture of terrorist suspects. The authors, some of whom are ex-CIA and U.S. military, encourage those who can’t successfully report issues through the chain of command take more drastic measures.

Potential whistleblowers may have been emboldened by the court win and the panel’s recommendations, but the White House is still taking a hard line on Snowden to discourage future leaks.

The White House announced Monday that it would not grant amnesty to Snowden, who is currently taking refuge in Russia, and would pursue all charges against him if he returns to U.S. soil.

The announcement is only a taste of what whistleblowers can expect if they follow in Snowden’s footsteps.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 07:32

Looks like Robin Raphael redux. Clintonistas in charge tilting at India same as in 1993.
These small officials with access to high political power use their position to deliver strikes at India hoping to gain favor.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Dec 2013 07:35

The Indian EAM is now done on his knees begging the Americans. No self respect at all. Only such people are ever made ministers in GOI. Meanwhile I'm busy collecting the names of all MUTUs that crawled out of the woodwork in India. The cast is impressive.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2013 07:42

Mods is it possible to ban people for being stupid and defending foriegn poweres over Indian interests?

We have repeatedly seen such instances on this thread. An Indian diplomat is arrested in contravention of Vienna convention. Over a matter that in subjudice in an Indian court. Against an individual with a NBW. And we have people debating the merits of the American position.

if this is not providing aid and comfort to the enemynthen what is.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Dec 2013 07:48

LokeshC wrote:No one will tell you that on your face, just like no one will call the "N" word to a black man. Has anyone in the US asked your "caste". I have been asked by a few people, but its rare.

A few times yes, and like you said it's rare. I have also taken time to explain that modern india with modern India has many problems all of which she's trying to solve earnestly. Reservations/Affirmative action includes one such strategy. I've also been asked about prostitution etc. Plenty of people have no idea of what goes on in the US itself, whether it be rapes or trafficking. I don't think most of it is out of any genuine hatred or even dislike.

If you have a few white friends, get them drunk. If they are close to you, you will come to know exactly what they think of us. Dont go by what they say to your face when they are sober, there are multiple layers of filters. Try making a few local american friends (i.e. guys like commercial food workers, chefs, waiters, painters etc), because they will be in a "jury of peers" that you select for your trial if ever there was one. Get close to them and you would know what they really think of you.

I drink obnoxious amounts with my white american and european friends. There has never been a hint of discrimination. This isn't to say that none exists. Plenty does, but it's not the norm.

Example here: http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/17/world/glo ... ery-index/

EDIT: Another example: http://www.dw.de/modern-day-slavery-wid ... a-17180433

This is from a two minute google search. The irony is, the so called "slavery" in India is nowhere even comparable to what went on in the US history. Most Americans are historically illeterate, but they do know that "slavery"==bad and thats good enough for the stereotype to stick.

Bonded labour in India today is a fact. So long as it continues to exist, the world media will continue to report. They will continue to do so in spite of grievous injustices in their own society. This is not something we can escape or even should try to. Similarly, we should freely do so about other societies.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 22 Dec 2013 07:50

Pratyush wrote:if this is not providing aid and comfort to the enemynthen what is.

The US might not have behaved as a very friendly country, it is most definitely *not* an enemy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 07:54

merlin wrote:The Indian EAM is now done on his knees begging the Americans. No self respect at all. Only such people are ever made ministers in GOI. Meanwhile I'm busy collecting the names of all MUTUs that crawled out of the woodwork in India. The cast is impressive.

Post the list in media watch, with names/links - I hope its not much beyond the usual suspects, though I guess there will be

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Dec 2013 07:55

LokeshC wrote:
Having an opinion is fine. But you are drawing the wrong conclusions from the evidence on the ground. I am sure there is someone in some corner of this earth that has the opinion that the sun really rises in the west. That is an opinion but its not based on the factual evidence.

The factual evidence of this case has been repeated ad-nauseum on so many pages and why the opinion you have is not relevant here. But yes, do feel free to post it here. Its a free country after all eh?

You have to be incredibly naive to think everything posted on this thread is factual evidence! Most of it actually can be discarded as propaganda/junk. The conclusions I draw are from my own perspective, they may be wrong according to your opinion but you are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.

Now can you seriously deny that DK's political connection had something to do with the reaction this time ( I am not not talking about this thread)? Now I didn't say this was the sole reason, but certainly a contributing factor.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 08:09

KrishnaK wrote:
LokeshC wrote:No one will tell you that on your face, just like no one will call the "N" word to a black man. Has anyone in the US asked your "caste". I have been asked by a few people, but its rare.
A few times yes, and like you said it's rare. I have also taken time to explain that modern india with modern India has many problems all of which she's trying to solve earnestly. Reservations/Affirmative action includes one such strategy. I've also been asked about prostitution etc. Plenty of people have no idea of what goes on in the US itself, whether it be rapes or trafficking. I don't think most of it is out of any genuine hatred or even dislike.

Bonded labour in India today is a fact. So long as it continues to exist, the world media will continue to report. They will continue to do so in spite of grievous injustices in their own society. This is not something we can escape or even should try to. Similarly, we should freely do so about other societies.

If they know you as a person then sure, it wont be genuine hatred or dislike. The issue is when they dont know you. That is when assumptions come into picture and when they would go "Ahh, I read somewhere that Indians are known for this...... etc etc". Now when there is a slight evidence of trafficking, they wont even think twice when they are in the jury. (I have seen this happen to native Americans, also do read the post by g.sarkar a few pages back on another perspective).

Let me give you a hypothetical. You have a newborn in your house and your parents come visit you for a few months. People might suspect that you are "trafficking them", they might be more inclined to. When you are in good terms, they wont bring it up. But when things go south with them (lets say there is a civil case with someone) They will dig into each and every detail with you to throw whatever dirt they can on you. Stereotypes play a big big role there.

Bonded labor is a fact, I am not arguing with you there. But the way its painted to be an endemic problem with most "upper caste" Indians looking at it as if they are not concerned is patently false propaganda. There are quite a lot of concerned Indians who are doing all they can regardless of caste. There needs to be a balance in reporting such issues and I find that absent most of the time in the western press.

All this is OT for the topic at hand, we can talk about this later when the current issue cools down.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 08:30

Dipanker wrote:
LokeshC wrote:
Having an opinion is fine. But you are drawing the wrong conclusions from the evidence on the ground. I am sure there is someone in some corner of this earth that has the opinion that the sun really rises in the west. That is an opinion but its not based on the factual evidence.

The factual evidence of this case has been repeated ad-nauseum on so many pages and why the opinion you have is not relevant here. But yes, do feel free to post it here. Its a free country after all eh?
You have to be incredibly naive to think everything posted on this thread is factual evidence! Most of it actually can be discarded as propaganda/junk. The conclusions I draw are from my own perspective, they may be wrong according to your opinion but you are certainly entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.

Now can you seriously deny that DK's political connection had something to do with the reaction this time ( I am not not talking about this thread)? Now I didn't say this was the sole reason, but certainly a contributing factor.

I am rather naive, I admit that. However one thing I do know that DK's political connections has no relationship with the outrage. If DK was not politically connected, India would have reacted the same way to institutionally sanctioned rape and violation of international conventions. The other cases did not end up with this level of violent craziness and were as usual hushed up and brushed under the rug.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Dec 2013 08:30

svenkat wrote:J
The entire Indian society looks upto US.Even in BRF,so many are Indian Americans or Indians in America.Does not Srikrishna say mangoabduls look upto shreshta-s.Orthodox hindus are among the most law abiding citizens in world who respect authority,duly constitued hierarchy.In India,technocrats,business leaders,dalits,NGOs,christians,press magnates,politicians,DMK,Hindu upper castes look upto US as innovators,source of technology/capital,trend setters.The pluralistic US society is admired for freedom it gives the indvidual to go about his life,for rule of law,for sexual freedom,for expressing oneself in arts and letters.Let us not forget the huge gujrati diaspora in US or that Arun Jaitley/Jaswant Singh too are admirers of US.Over and above these good reasons are sources of corruption-scholarships/fellowships for useless journalists/humanities people and travel junkets.

In our society,we know for sure that for many many people in our middle classes,US is the first choice as destination.Many a IIT graduate choses US as first choice.The sons of govt bureacrats chose US,true through the 'honest' STEM route.In the marriage 'market' a US son-in-law is preferred.

THis is entirely due to brainwashed campaign created after 1991 where the media and education in India was twisted towards the west and US. Such a large country being led astray has not happened before and this is due to an entire generation which is DIE which has lost the nationalistic thought process. Their sole aim is to keep looking outside and praising the western countries and their economy. The indians have been fed with all kind of nonsense as in the above post about the west and their 'freedom'.

The common Indian is confused about his own country and nationalism. Nationalism is the fundamental foundation of the nation

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 22 Dec 2013 08:33

Assuming they can get DK out of this, that is only the beginning of the issue. What about the disrespect to the Indian judiciary and the illegal smuggling of Indians into the US using the T Visas by the State dept?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Dec 2013 08:39

Dipanker wrote: The outrage this time was more because DK seems to very well connected. What has gotten her into a bigger soup is waving of non bailable warrant against SR and her family from obtained from some magistrate in Delhi. Such blatant display power and privilege a la Indian style, can only invoke scorn from people who normally otherwise be sympathetic to her cause.

Indians in India and abroad have become too cynical and everything is equated to power, corruption and nepotism. No one seems to bother to look little deeper and that is why unfortunately there is too much of criticism of DK in the digital world.

Let us ask ourselves a bit about what motivates someone to become an IAS or an IFS officer or a an Army officer. All these are well trained lethal brains of India. It is true as in any trade there will mediocre and there will be brilliant. But at the end what keeps them motivated and what is that Indian government does to keep them going? They don't pay a million dollar per annum as salaries and perks. From a career/family and life perspective they all can easily join "Oracle operators" DOOs club and make more. But why don't they do? Not all are corrupt and there is no opportunity to be corrupt for everyone. Neither just passion for doing something to India keeps someone motivated for ever. GOI just is not yet there to create a massive salary bill and so what it does is allowing to have some official perks and creating something so that these guys get good things in a cheaper way. When digged through some of these things, they may look like corruption. As the governance degraded beyond limits in the past 2 to 2.5 decades everything is now looks like corrupt. The original intent is getting mixed up with huge corruption that is going on.

Minor mistakes do happen in US by hosts of folks and same happens in India also. During Bush admin one of his appointees ( forgot the name) did not get confirmed because he was accused of employing illegal. No one has arrested him or did any spectacular searches. But why in the case of DK? The system wanted to fix her for something and they have utilized the smaller stuff and made it look big.

In US several H1Bs and employment based GC are given every year. If you really go through these petitions and the language for justification of labor it is all huge pile of BS and sheer hypocrisy. It is huge "law and paralegal" industry to cooking justifications. Every GC has to prove that the company sponsoring this GC is because they cannot find such a superman in the industry and hence they want to make permanent resident for their business to survive. That means every year US is bringing in thousands of supermen who are not available in US. Similar but slightly less for H1Bs as well. Now dig through every petition you will find several errors. Will they arrest every company owners, lawyers etc? Hypocrisy and double standards are the hallmarks of this labor market offenses.

There in absolutely no need to go overboard and call the matter as human trafficking etc. But US has decided to do that for its own reasons. Instead of why and what regarding US action and also what should be India's response, a lot of Indians go overboard in being critical of DK and link this to all the corruption and nonsense that is happening in India. In the same situation how did other powers such as Russia or China would have reacted?

Few pointers that are past from the blast:
(1) The torture of India by US during PVNR government to sign CTBT, NPT in return for IMF loan when India's economy is in pits. The saga of Madaline Albrights, Robin Rafels and what not. There are allegations of implantation of moles (also written in the book by Shri Jaswant Singh, India's ex external affairs minister) into the top bodies of India.

(2) Always remember Late K.subramanium's words that he wrote in Kargil report. International diplomacy is very cruel. ( you forget this you will always find fault with victims such as DK)

(3) A lot of extensive allocation of money towards human-intel program was allocated by USA after its failure to detect India's Nuke tests

(4) It has created an extensive mole networks inside the every institution of India and has deeply infiltrated into political networks. There will never be proofs or articles written about personalities who is a mole and who is not. It has to be derived from who is talking what?

(5) During Operation Parakram, there are a pointers that US has hacked into India Naval ship when they were getting ready for Naval blockade after parl attack

(6) India went overboard to suck and please US to get the Nuke deal signed. But no useful thing happened to US and promises are not delivered by India.

(7) There are rumors and noises that the INS Sindurakshak was a sabotage

The entire relationship with India for US revolves around what India will give to US and US never negotiates to give anything back. It is always India's decision of how much it can yield. On this very forum during the Nuke deal discussions saga, several members argued that making economic progress is more important (nicknamed as "construction of public lavatories") than strategic affairs. India has its choices:
(a) Does it want to deal independently and boldly and not compromise in its strategic goals
or
(b) "Bend it like Beckham" for walmarts, service sector jobs and help more DOOs

There are ways for India to course correct itself but current Indian admin has allowed more leverage to both US and China unfortunately at the cost of national interest. (read RN Singh or LVS on news insight).

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Dec 2013 08:52

Madhusudhan wrote:Assuming they can get DK out of this, that is only the beginning of the issue. What about the disrespect to the Indian judiciary and the illegal smuggling of Indians into the US using the T Visas by the State dept?

Nothing will happen.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Dec 2013 08:54

Acharya ji,
I have no illusions about US.But can you deny that Indians look upto US for quality jobs,education etc.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Dec 2013 09:00

KrishnaK wrote:
Pratyush wrote:if this is not providing aid and comfort to the enemynthen what is.
The US might not have behaved as a very friendly country, it is most definitely *not* an enemy.

It has conducted it self as an enemy. Therfore it is.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Dec 2013 09:10

http://politics.utoronto.ca/faculty/profile/?id=270

Professor Aakash Singh (also known as Aakash Singh Rathore) received a PhD in Political Philosophy (KU Leuven) and an LLM in Comparative Constitutional Law (Central European University, Budapest). He was Research Professor—in international and comparative political thought—at the Faculty of Political Science, LUISS University of Rome, where he remains International Fellow of the Center for Ethics and Global Politics. Prof. Singh was previously Reader in legal, political and continental philosophy at the University of Delhi, and also Visiting Fellow at the Developing Countries Research Centre there. He has taught comparative law at Humboldt University (Berlin) and political philosophy at Leuven. His books include: Indian Political Thought (Routledge); B.R. Ambedkar’s The Buddha & His Dhamma—A Critical Edition (Oxford University Press); Global Justice: Deparochializing the Debate (Routledge); The Future of Political Theology (Ashgate); From Political Theory to Political Theology (Continuum); and, Hegel’s India (forthcoming). Prof. Singh is Series Editor of Ethics, Human Rights & Global Political Thought (Routledge), and Religion and Democracy: Reconceptualising Religion, Culture & Politics through Comparative Contexts (Oxford University Press). He is Director and co-founder of the International Research Network on Religion & Democracy (http://irnrd.blogspot.com).

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Dec 2013 09:25

As per TimesNow info, T-Visa has only been used only twice in the history of the visa prior to this situation.

My theory is that Sonia is already compromised and this was a well planned conspiracy to smack down the IFS lobby. No wonder shameless Munna gave Rs. 4000 crore to USA for non-urgent non-essential defense imports as a reward for raping Indian Dalit woman diplomat. As I said before maid family escaped India due to co-operation of Delhi Police with US embassy. Kurshit has already bringing things like Muzzarnagr rapes into the discourse which would get any brfite banned.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 09:26

svenkat wrote:Acharya ji,
I have no illusions about US.But can you deny that Indians look upto US for quality jobs,education etc.

With the decades of dynastic misgovernance and brazen non accountability, India has been subject to, no wonder Indians looked abroad for improved standards of living.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 22 Dec 2013 09:26

From today's print edition of Asian Age:
"In the US, a 27-page booklet, issued by the US department of state, give the American interpretation of the two conventions and their implementation. The representatives of foreign government may be entitled to some degree of immunity under international law, accounting to the US interpretation. Diplomatic immunity is not afforded to all employees of foreign governments"

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Dec 2013 09:35

One could cynically put it that this is all a desi-created drama.

One can suspect desi Preet Bharara as having abused his discretion certifying whatever he needs to about human trafficking for issuing T-visas. It does seem that labor exploitation (by underpaying) does not qualify as human trafficking and hence does not qualify for a T-visa.

And did he do it alone? There almost certainly has to be someone in the State Department who had him do it; Uzra Zeya, (another person with desi ancestry), by her possible history of being in India and knowing the Richard family, fits the bill.

Then there is Sangeeta Richard, desi, who by hook or crook wanted to stay in the US, and bring her family over, too.

There is Devyani Khobragade, who along with her desi husband, seems to have had the means to follow the letter of the US law regarding the wages to her household help, but nevertheless did what people might cynically call the desi shortcut.

The whole thing sort of blew up in Bharara and friends' face, because of the strip search. But I doubt much will happen to them, they are up-and-coming Clintonistas.

I observe that it seems that every desi involved in this case seems to be abusing their privileges or stretching the law to the limit. This is not to say that non-desis don't manipulate the system - they too make it elastic to achieve whatever purposes they have. But in this particular case, all the actors are desi.

As some newspaper article put it, this is a flap created by lower level (i.e., not policy setting) bureaucrats.

Indian interests: India has to stand by the principle that her diplomats, whatever their faults, are accorded the appropriate dignity, even if they are accused of far graver crimes than lying on a visa application.

And in resolving this issue, Indian interests are paramount - e.g., not those of Ms. DK. It would be ideal if justice is done, i.e., each person is affected proportionally to their misbehavior; but this is the real world. In whatever the resolution is, Bharara and his hypothetical state dept friend will suffer not at all; likely neither will the Richard family; the brunt of the fallout will be felt by Ms. DK and family.

From the American side, apart from mending fences with India at the level of the policy makers if not the lower-level bureaucrats:

(1) as ramana put it, the US Supreme Court has made Abu Graib practices standard within the US - they need to really rethink that; and

(2) they need to look into the (what I think of as) abuse of discretionary power in issuing the T-visas for the Richard family.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 09:38

A-Gupta, In a way you pointed out that Preet Bharara in his hubris has behaved in overstretch like Rajaratnam or Rajat Gupta in financial arena.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 09:39

And one can depend on you to put things in right perspective!!!

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 09:40

What bothers me is that there is no evidence of any abuse on the maid. No physical abuse, no verbal abuse and no sexual abuse.

There are a few voices from the dalit side that seem to have seen through this:
http://roundtableindia.co.in/index.php? ... Itemid=132

4. The A3 visa that Sangeeta had come on was good only as long as she worked for Devyani. And when Devyani would eventually be transferred out of New York in two or three years' time, the visa would become invalid and Sangeeta would have to leave New York as well. She did not want to do that. She wanted Devyani to help secure her a green card so that she could stay in the US permanently.

5. Devyani agreed to give her the money, instantly. But she could not give her immigration support, as the Indian government does not issue a US visa. At this meeting, Devyani was accompanied by other staff from the consulate, so everything in this meeting can be verified and substantiated by a third party. The consular staff requested Sangeeta to take the money and go back to India and then apply for an Indian passport and a normal US working visa. Sangeeta refused. She said and here is her quote, 'I will not go back. Why will I go back? I know that if I go back I will never be able to come back to the US."

The allegations that Devyani has exploited, abused, maltreated or even underpaid her housemaid are completely fabricated. Even Sangeeta has not made these allegations in her complaint. Devyani's mistake was nothing but to follow a convention that was set and followed by many IFS bureaucrats while recruiting a housemaid but it was mutually agreed upon and the other party never showed any disagreement against this arrangement, till the day she decided to abscond from her job. In fact, her salary is not even enough to afford a full time maid in New York. Further, she had shown all possible ways to Sangeeta to resolve the problem of her stay in the US.

Most important in this issue is the way in which the US state security forces handled it. In the most bizarre and aggressive manner, the police publicly arrested her, handcuffed and stuffed her in the police car. She was treated like a criminal by the officers who forced her to go through inhuman treatment (she was repeatedly handcuffed, stripped, swabbed, held up with petty criminals and drug addicts and subjected to the worst form of humiliation, i.e. body cavity search) and a criminal case was filed against her. Her dignity and pride were severely compromised and challenged. She was always open for judicial opinion in Sangeeta's case, but the way in which the police bullied her is unwarranted and has now become an unpardonable injustice.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Dec 2013 09:40

svenkat wrote:Acharya ji,
I have no illusions about US.But can you deny that Indians look upto US for quality jobs,education etc.

Karan M wrote: With the decades of dynastic misgovernance and brazen non accountability, India has been subject to, no wonder Indians looked abroad for improved standards of living.

But the statecraft never changed. Diplomacy is another form of war between two nations that are never friends. India and US are not friends even if any number of folks can spin in any number of ways. Just because there is exchanges of ideas, jobs, business and also just because the two nations are democracies does not in any way make them friends. Posturing is something but reality is totally different. In the midst of what is happening there are too many delusions to some of those who immigrated or some of those who are in India but working for US clients.

India has to deliver Kashmir to Pakistan and sign CTBT/NPT and rollback the nukes. India also should behave with China just like Pak behaves with India. There should be no independent ideas and India should consider US interests as India's interests. US will aggressive pursue this only and it is in India's court of what it has to do. The act is a diplomatic battle which is a small thing in a long war. All wars are not fought using guns. This war is fought with spies and minds. India has lost the war of minds. It has ways to win against spies but it needs to get its act together and definitely no chance with such a compromised government in the seat.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2013 09:44

A_Gupta I noticed that the voices of fogging on the forum and in Indian media have a mind view of India and do not want any nationalist view or voice of India to alter their mind view. Its this meme that gives them the vehemence to stay the course in their delusion.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Dec 2013 09:49

Only thing I can say is that 2014 is not far away Muppalla ji and a new Govt may follow. Indian youth & the popular Indian zeitgeist are a funny thing. If in the next 8 years (hopefully), India booms economically, governance improves, you'll see far less accommodation of Khan/western mental constructs. People will still ape them, but there will be a subtle shift towards national pride, and hence unwillingness to automatically swallow whatever is dished out by the NYT/Ekhanomist types and their NRI/PIO reps.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 22 Dec 2013 09:52

If the Indian govt is smart, they would do one thing :- a massive PR blitzkrieg. Hire a PR firm, a media lobbyist and an excellent army of lawyers.

Cook up dirt on Sangeeta's family and how she was abusive to DKs kids. You have to start smearing her enough to make her stop looking like a victim and more of the person that she really is, an opportunist. At the same time, the media reports on "slavery" blah blah need to be put in perspective by giving a sneakpeek on what actually is ground reality in India and why for Indians the maids claim seem very odd and opportunist.

vic · Post by **vic** » 22 Dec 2013 09:52

Maid always knew that she will be able to get her family to usa which is practically impossible unless even before she left she knew of the plan. Use of T visa is so rare that she was given this assurance from pretty high level.This plan required single point co ordination hence it has urza zeya written all over it, nobody else is high enough to co ordinate it.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 22 Dec 2013 09:54

Humiliating an Indian diplomat is not an ordinary decision.Whatever be the merits or lack of it in DK,the decision was signed off by Kerrorist.The buck stops with him.And the bigger Uncle Tom is Nisha Desai-Biswal.