India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 23 Dec 2013 22:41

A_Gupta wrote:In March 2011, the US authorities said none of room, board, health care, travel can be counted in this calculation.

Can you provide a link please ?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Dec 2013 22:51

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types ... l#personal

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Dec 2013 22:53

Was this posted? Swagato Ganguly demolishes the fake high moral ground being claimed by Americans and their supporters.

In Khobragade's hounding, an ambitious brown man assumes white man's burden

On the face of it, it's difficult to figure why Devyani Khobragade is treated as a heinous offender by the US criminal justice system because, according to her prosecutors, she did not pay her domestic help $4,500 a month for her services. Being above average per capita income in the US, it's reasonable to assume that a majority of Americans make less than this amount. But Preet Bharara, celebrity federal prosecutor currently pursuing Khobragade with great ferocity, is hardly going after employers of a large number of Americans on this score.

It only begins to make sense if one factors in the cultural-economic context in the US. It's hurting from an economic downturn, whose tipping point was the Lehman collapse brought on by US failure to restrain its banking system from peddling toxic financial products.

But it's always convenient to have an outsider to blame. In the ensuing nasty mood, Indians become a convenient target. As Indians are new entrants in the global marketplace, President Barack Obama made it a staple of Democratic Party rhetoric to insinuate that Indians (like Chinese) were stealing jobs from the US.

And how were the Indians and Chinese doing it? By selling themselves cheap, by working for wages no decent American would countenance (that Indians have no other option needn't be mentioned in polite society). As this narrative of cheap labour took hold, the Obama administration passed several protectionist measures aimed at res-tricting competitively priced IT exports from India.

In a free market system, people should be free to sell their labour. As cheaper labour can confer comparative advantage, that's indeed how poorer nations can lift themselves up by their bootstraps, even as the high living standards of Americans and westerners are enabled by cheap labour in other parts of the world. International trade creates efficiency and increases total global wealth.

Yet cheap labour becomes an affront if others should do work Americans aspire to — such as software and services where Indians have competitive power. It's this trope of cheap labour that could be behind the hounding of Khobragade, as part of a 'civilising mission' of forcing India to adopt high wages (even if its economic conditions do not allow for it). That's why few in the West will notice the irony of Khobragade being asked to pay wages that are higher than her own salary, and treated like a common felon in violation of the Vienna Convention.

In reporting on the Devyani affair, there's a great deal of tut-tutting in the western press about low wages paid to domestics in India. None of these reports mention that even upper middle class Indian incomes scarcely cross what are considered poverty thresholds in western countries. The point, after all, is to be judgmental. Devyani has fallen victim to this climate of judgmentalism. A species of McCarthyism, if you will, but one that stigmatises poor nations and hinders their transition to high wage nations.

Interestingly, McCarthy in this case happens to be of Indian origin. Bharara is an Obama nominee who's reported to harbour political ambitions. If he goes up for high political office, acquiring a few Indian scalps on the way and thereby exorcising his origins would be useful. And what better Indian scalp, in the current political climate, than one on the 'cheap labour' issue — thereby assuaging what he takes to be a prime anxiety among Americans?

It would be a grievous mistake, however, for India to turn more protectionist in response to this protectionist streak in US politics. If India turns away from the world, it is liable to be trapped in dependency relationships and steamrollered even more easily. Rather, it ought to open its markets more and entice US and western businesses to invest in its economy. That will create mutual dependency and turn US businessmen into allies against bullies in positions of power.

Normally, two worlds are kept apart in the western mind. One is the expectation of high wages within the borders of western countries; the other is low wages outside those borders which enable the consumption of a wide array of goods and services by people resident in western countries. It's considered a scandal if the two worlds come into collision. But they do collide in case of poorer nations' missions in western countries. One outcome is the Devyani affair.

The two worlds also collide in case of US missions in poor countries. The Indian government has sought disclosure of salary structures of Indian employees within US missions in India. It should widely publicise the results, which are likely to be fascinating. My guess is that what Indian cooks, gardeners and other helps are paid by US missions is far closer to 'exploitative' wages prevailing in the Indian labour market than to the 'fair' wage of $4,500 a month. I would, in fact, be willing to wager $4,500 on this. Even though, as an Indian, that's a heck of a lot of money to me.

Candid confession: I'm not losing any sleep over this. I figure that even if i lose the bet, i could recoup the money in a month by offering to tend the US embassy's lawns in Delhi. I have no doubt Preet Bharara will defend my right to do so.

saip · Post by **saip** » 23 Dec 2013 22:54

How do you calculate hours put in by livin workers. They do not punch in and punch out. Must we assume they are always working from the time they wake up till the time they go to bed relentlessly even when no one is at home? With that assumption all livin workers are over worked and under paid.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 23 Dec 2013 22:59

chaanakya wrote:http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types ... l#personal

I am assuming the March 2011 clarification disallowing deductions for boarding, healthcare etc is only for the A-3 visa, and does not apply to the minimum hourly wage requirement for domestic workers.

Why this discrimination between A-3 workers and domestic workers where A-3 workers cannot be paid in kind ?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Dec 2013 23:06

The main issue is, this incident happened to extract something - which will become clear in due course and to send a message.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Dec 2013 23:11

Arjun wrote:
chaanakya wrote:http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types ... l#personal
I am assuming the March 2011 clarification disallowing deductions for boarding, healthcare etc is only for the A-3 visa, and does not apply to the minimum hourly wage requirement for domestic workers.

Why this discrimination between A-3 workers and domestic workers where A-3 workers cannot be paid in kind ?

I suppose that should be applicable to American labourers and they are extending it to A3 visa holders on official passport.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 23 Dec 2013 23:19

JwalaMukhi wrote:The main issue is, this incident happened to extract something - which will become clear in due course and to send a message.

Could be, or it could something as simple as putting and end to this maid business altogether, given that this is third case in almost as many years.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Dec 2013 23:21

The main issue is : there was intense desire to calibrate the relationship. A very crude and brutal method was used to convey the recalibration visibly. Someone is mightily angry and childish at not getting what was desired. This is where diplomacy is going to be tested.

The issue of maid et.al, are sideshow, for time pass. If it is not maids, then there is going to be other things that will be used to convey crudely the messages. The maids etc., are discussed only to help officials, who are posted, to help prevent one more avenue to be exposed for exploitation. That's largely secondary.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 23 Dec 2013 23:34

Madhusudhan wrote:Lessons to be learned:
- Huffing & Puffing, throwing a fit and doing a few superficial things does not help
- Retaliation should be quiet, effective and disproportionate (such as giving asylum to a high profile figure)
- When dealing with US, use legalistic behavior. Counter sue, file lawsuit on state department for contempt of court, smuggling Indian citizens, etc.

Now you are talking! (except for the asylum part, that IMO will be too provocative.)

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Dec 2013 23:43

Arjun wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:In March 2011, the US authorities said none of room, board, health care, travel can be counted in this calculation.
Can you provide a link please ?

The link chanakya provided, repeating here.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types ... l#personal

Minimum Wage.

The contract must state the hourly wage to be paid to the domestic employee. The rate must be the greater of the minimum wage under U.S. Federal and state law, or the prevailing wage for all working hours. Information on the prevailing wage statistics by occupation and metropolitan area is available on the Department of Labor's Online Wage Library & Data Center website.

The contract must state that wages will be paid to the domestic employee either weekly or biweekly. As of March 2011, the Department determined that no deductions are allowed for lodging, medical care, medical insurance, or travel. As of April 2012, deductions taken for meals are also no longer allowed.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 23 Dec 2013 23:51

The main issue, and one India must make in general, is that the A3 visa and the conditions accompanying it are in direct contravention of Article 47 of the 1963 Vienna conventions, which state that

1.Members of the consular post shall, with respect to services rendered for the sending State, be exempt from any obligations in regard to work permits imposed by the laws and regulations of the receiving State concerning the employment of foreign labour.
2.Members of the private staff of consular officers and of consular employees shall, if they do not carry on any other gainful occupation in the receiving State, be exempt from the obligations referred to in paragraph 1 of this article.

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instrumen ... 2_1963.pdf

Note that the Vienna conventions essentially say that personal staff of consular officials cannot be subjected to different conditions than the consular officials themselves, as long as they do not carry out any other gainful occupation. India should have insisted from the outset that domestic staff were subject to the same A1/A2 visa conditions that consular officials and other staff (e.g. drivers, security personnel) have. The distinction drawn by the US between drivers (who are not subject to any labor laws including minimum wage laws in the US since they carry A2 visas) and domestic staff (who are under the current A3 visa regulations) is arbitrary and untenable under the Vienna conventions. This specific visa regulation has never been tested in courts, but in general, the courts have always ruled that treaty obligations supersede statutes - in this case , the visa regulation is not even a statute, it is a simple Government order issued by the executive branch of Government.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 23 Dec 2013 23:58

Full text of the complaint against DK
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/full-text-co ... 456-2.html

Some excerpts:

7a. Witness-2 and Witness-1 met with Devyani Khobragade, the defendant, at the Residence in reference to WITNESS-1 s potential employment for Khobragade in New York, New York as a domestic helper. Khobragade offered to pay Witness-1 a starting salary of 25, 000 rupees per month, plus an additional 5, OOO rupees for overtime.
...

8. Based on my review of a publicly available report of the US Department of Treasury, which sets forth the rate of exchange in effect as of September 1, 2012, I know that at that time, 52 .35 rupees was equivalent to $1 U. S. dollar. At that rate of exchange, 30,000 rupees is equivalent to $573.07 US dollars. At 40 hours per week, with approximately 4 . 3 weeks in a month, $573 . 07 dollars equates to a rate of $3.31 per hour.
....

9c. The Visa Application stated that an visa was sought for Witness-l, who was to be the personal employee of Khobragade beginning in November 2012 at an address in New York, New York.

9d. The Visa Application stated that Witness-l was to be paid $4,500 per month in US dollars.

...

24. Based on my interviews of Witness-l, I know, in substance and in part, that Witness~l worked for Devyani Khobragade, the defendant, as a household employee in New York, New York from approximately November 2012 through approximately June 2013 . Notwithstanding the terms of the First Employment Contract, Witness-l worked far more than 40 hours per week, and Witness~l was paid less than $9.75 per hour by Khobragade. In fact, notwithstanding the terms of the oral agreement between Khobragade and Witness-l and the terms of the Second Employment Contract, Witness-l was paid less than 30,000 rupees, or $3.31 per hour.

(emphasis added)

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Dec 2013 00:03

The way media of USA is preaching, it seems it has details that were required by Indian authorities from USA diplomats. Fact is, unless such details are there, one can't take sides nor can preach without standards and, amongst the least of all, be the judge & jury to pass value judgements against others- which the USA media has been doing already!

Will this chatter of laws should be applied equally, preaching should be applied equally, strictures must be applied equally, etc etc be enforced by media in USA in case some skeleton tumbles out to bite off their nose?!

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 24 Dec 2013 00:07

Here are some things I feel will help:
- Use the US court system : File a case against the state department for illegal human smuggling in contravention of their own guidelines for the T1 Visa
- Use the Indian court system : File a case of contempt of court against every US official in India that is loosely related to this case
- Pursue any international avenues where violations of Vienna convention can be adjudicated
- All future diplomacy must be pursued on a quid-pro-quo basis - For example, sanctions against Iran. No illusions of friendship.
- Realize that while both conservatives and liberals in America look down upon India, conservatives tend to be more practical and will look past that for mutual benefit while Liberals will sneer at us and try to punish us at every opportunity.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 24 Dec 2013 00:18

Sridhar wrote:The main issue, and one India must make in general, is that the A3 visa and the conditions accompanying it are in direct contravention of Article 47 of the 1963 Vienna conventions .....
....

This specific visa regulation has never been tested in courts, but in general, the courts have always ruled that treaty obligations supersede statutes - in this case , the visa regulation is not even a statute, it is a simple Government order issued by the executive branch of Government.

Sridhar, there is specific legislation in regard to A-3 visas, it is not just an executive order.
See "William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008".
Incidentally, William Wilberforce was a great anti-slavery advocate. He was also one of the political forces behind making the East India Company permit missionaries into India in 1813.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wi ... ristianity

The father of the infamous Macaulay who set out to anglicize India and Wilberforce belonged to the same church (the Clapham sect).

Coming back to topic: the text of the legislation is here:
http://m.state.gov/md113178.htm

Section 203 Protections, remedies, and limitations on issuance for A-3 and G-5 visas
Requires that an A-3 visa can be issued only with an employment contract, and,

(2) MANDATORY CONTRACT- The contract between the employer and domestic worker required under paragraph (1) shall include--

(A) an agreement by the employer to abide by all Federal, State, and local laws in the United States;

(B) information on the frequency and form of payment, work duties, weekly work hours, holidays, sick days, and vacation days; and

(C) an agreement by the employer not to withhold the passport, employment contract, or other personal property of the employee.

saip · Post by **saip** » 24 Dec 2013 00:26

I am not sure why people are talking of retaliation when all India was doing is removing the extra privileges that were granted, for whatever reason, to US diplomats. Even Indian ambassador is not exempt from airport frisking while a low level american diplomat is exempt at Indian airports. I hope now with the surrender of IDs same rules will apply to US diplomats in India.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 24 Dec 2013 00:28

^^^ It is easy to become an anti slavery advocate when indentured labor provides you with cheaper and more manageable resources. Afterall you have to look after your slaves which are assets whereas with the labor in India if some die more will be available.
The so called anti slavery experts and advocates who also represented the East India Company know which side the bread was buttered.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Dec 2013 00:35

JwalaMukhi wrote:If diplomats think that they could bring along their families with them, then maids see what they are missing. They do not have their immediate family available to them. Tough luck, it is a spartan military posting for the maids. But for the diplomats it is fairyland posting. This dichotomy leads to maids jumping ship at earliest opportunity.

This is absolutely correct. DK was getting paid USA wages while SR was getting paid India wages. Inherently unstable. Shows IFS incompetence IMHO.

It's as easy for an Indian diplomat not to bring maids to NYC as it is for an American diplomat to do without subsidized American cheese and beer in Delhi. These little perks are given to each other in the spirit of getting along as they should. After all, what does "diplomacy" stand for?

BTW a maid is not a 'perk'. This is a human being you are talking about.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 24 Dec 2013 00:41

A_Gupta,

The legislation you have pointed to only lays down the conditions under which the A3 visas can be issued. It does not say who an A3 visa should be issued to and who an A2 visa can be issued to. It does not say for instance, that drivers get A2 visas and domestic workers should get A3 visas. That is an executive decision. My argument is that this is an arbitrary distinction, and in contravention of the Vienna conventions.

That said, whether it is a the outcome of legislation or an executive order is immaterial to the country sending the diplomats. It is for the US to figure out how it can adhere to a treaty it has signed. And the courts have ruled repeatedly on that. If a country signs an international treaty, it has to bring its own legislation (and in some cases its Constitution) in compliance with that treaty. It cannot use domestic legislation or executive decisions as a reason to not be in compliance with the treaty obligation, since the latter supersedes all domestic legislation.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 24 Dec 2013 00:45

^^^ Oh please. Cut out that analogy. That human being is far better off with the 30,000 in a month to her family than she is without.
The minimum wage laws would cause massive unemployment in a country like India.

It is a matter of demand and supply - trust me there are many many maids who would want this posting given the terms given the vast human resources we have. For the few cases we hear off there are many more that go back to their home countries happy. India is not the only country that brings help, all the other consulates also do so. It is only with India that the level of dissonance is so high that they are now willing to abandon all ethics and throw people under the bus.

UK actually allows a temporary visa for such resources.

The best solution would be to make such maids employees of the consulate itself. Then whatever salary is negotiated is with the Indian government. It can be a deduction to the officers pay but will safeguard the officer from such scenarios. What it will not do is prevent accusations of sexual harassment, ill treatment and what have you.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 24 Dec 2013 00:46

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 808060.cms

NEW DELHI: Even as the US remains reluctant to drop visa fraud charges against diplomat Devyani Kohobragade, the government has taken the line that the 39-year-old IFS officer had fulfilled all her commitments in contracts signed with domestic help Sangeeta Richard. Khobragade on Monday got accreditation from the UN in her current posting at India's permanent mission paving the way for full immunity after acknowledgement from the state department.

The government is insisting before the US that as per the contract signed between Khobragade and Richard on November 11, 2012, the diplomat had to pay only $1,560 (at $9.75 hourly wage and 40 hours of work per week) to the help monthly. Sources said this was being paid to her in the form of $560 (or Rs 30,000 transferred to Richard's bank account in India every month), another $375 as deducted from the salary to pay for her chargeable utilities like telephone usage, cable TV, non-work related conveyance, expenses and another $625 given in cash, occasionally with signed receipts. As there were several months where the weekly hours fell well below 40 working hours, the cash payment was apparently adjusted accordingly.

The government has conveyed to US authorities that the figure of $4,500, which is mentioned in the salary details box in form DS-160 that Khobragade helped Richard fill, has been "mistakenly'' quoted by US agencies.

It has also been discovered that all three tickets meant for husband Philip Richard and two children were purchased by the US embassy. Even tax exemption was availed. The tickets were paid for through Master Card, and the endorsement reads JNTAXEXEMPTEDUSEMBASSY. The three flew to New York three days before Khobragade's arrest.

The diplomat has been allowed exemption from appearing in court personally. Khobragade is expected to have full immunity which will preclude any court jurisdiction over her, even if the crime was committed before the period of immunity. This will not be a "perpetual benefit'' for the diplomat though. In case she continues to stay back after the expiry of her full immunity, or comes back to the US in her personal capacity, she will have to face prosecution.

The US embassy here has sought extension of Monday's deadline for filing the visa and other details of the Indians employed by it and its officers. This information includes salary being paid to domestic help employed by US diplomats in India. New Delhi has also sought information about spouses of diplomats and other officials working with the American Embassy School (AES).

India is expected to deliver new identity cards to US consular officials, which will ensure that they have only consular, and not diplomatic, immunity. The US sought to draw a distinction between consular and diplomatic immunity in the Khobragade case saying that she was entitled to only consular immunity in her capacity as deputy consul general. Until now, India had not differentiated between consular and diplomatic privileges for US officials and had given diplomatic immunity to all of them.

DK is so smart that she filled in her own salary in dollars nonetheless for "current monthly salary in local currency" on DS-160. She cannot even tell that nobody will ask for employers salary on a form meant for employee. She couldn't even contemplate that the employer could be a corporation and DS-160 is meant for all kinds of visas.

Proud papa was acting up on TV that it was prosecutor who was falsifying waving a copy of DS-160 proudly on TV. What a moron. He bent MEA rules to destroy an IFS officers career for DK.

Wish we were defending someone with better credentials while defending the honor of India.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 24 Dec 2013 00:49

A_Gupta wrote: See "William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act of 2008".
Incidentally, William Wilberforce was a great anti-slavery advocate. He was also one of the political forces behind making the East India Company permit missionaries into India in 1813.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wi ... ristianity

The father of the infamous Macaulay who set out to anglicize India and Wilberforce belonged to the same church (the Clapham sect).

One of the reasons of the extent and spread of American slavery of Africans was in response to Briturdistan using Indian indentured labor to beat international cotton production.

Before the creation of slavery, Blacks were considered only slightly less than equal and infact had more rights than the Irish immigrants. This went on until the Bacon's Rebellion (a mixed race rebellion) shook the confidence of the English Elites (who were running the show), and they resorted to divide the blacks and the whites by inventing an artificial layer of superiority called race. By this time the European race "scientists" had "figured out" that "hierarchy of races".

Around the same time, the Portugese were discovering the traditional slave trade routes in Africa and once the Americans came to know about the blacks were brought in "as slaves" instead of "indentured laborers". The existing free blacks were captured in the south and then made into slaves.

The dependence on slavery increased exponentially once competition with Briturdistan increased (due to free labor from India). England has an equal hand in Screwing Indians as well as screwing African Americans. Infact, any non-white country that was touched by that tiny island has seen nothing but pain. In that sense England was (and maybe is) the cancer of the world.

So its funny and tragically ironic that a bill against "mordern slavery" is named after someone who went against it due to purely business interest (i.e. American Slavery was a competitive threat to England). Ofcourse the gora admi wont see the irony and hypocricy. He is as blind a hypocrite as anyone can be and will be singing white man's burden songs for sometime to come

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 24 Dec 2013 00:49

^^^ True DK herself is pretty vile. But we are not defending DK the person here. We are defending what she represents

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 24 Dec 2013 00:50

Theo_Fidel:

Let me correct you on a point of fact. DK and other diplomats are NOT paid US wages. Nor are the other staff at the consulate who get an A2 visa (e.g. non-diplomatic office staff, drivers, security personnel etc.). They are paid an Indian salary (which does not change based on whether they are posted in New Delhi or Harare or New York City) and a cost of living adjustment for the city they are posted in, and certain other benefits in kind and not in the form of money (e.g. an apartment to live in). In most first world countries, their total compensation does not bring them anywhere close to the wage levels of the host country.

The only instance in which an IFS officer would get first world level wages is when they are deputed to an international organization like the UN or a UN body, when they are paid not by the Indian Government, but by that organization (for clarification, the Indian permanent mission to the UN, which DK has now been transferred to, does not fall in this category).

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 24 Dec 2013 00:52

I am wondering if Devyani K and family pissed off someone in India who in partnership with US folks orchestrated part of this

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Dec 2013 00:56

chaanakya wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote: US Marshals conducted the arrest on behalf of US attorney. The US attorney has stated that only a strip search was conducted, no cavity search. .
Is there any video evidence that can rest this speculation at rest. The statement by Dk has come immediately after she was released on personal bond. Her statement would be more credible and statement of USMS and Attorney would be seen an as an attempt to cover up. I don't trust them or their system. They could be as unfair and racial and prejudiced as anyone else.

State dept spokeslady stated clearly that DK was arrested by diplomatic security which is part of aSD.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 24 Dec 2013 00:57

BTW, it is stupid to conflate issues on DK's violation or bending of Indian laws (for which she should be prosecuted or administrative action taken in India) with a case that has wide ramifications for India and its relationship with the US. I certainly hold no candle for DK's conduct in other matters, and would gladly join those asking for no special considerations for her on those cases. Furthermore, if there is any breaking of Indian laws and regulations on the maid's case itself, we should take whatever action is mandated by the law. But the case in the US is one of whether a country can unilaterally decide to violate an international treaty it has signed. It is an issue between India as a country and the US as a country. Not one that involves individuals.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Dec 2013 01:05

AFAIK DK was being paid ~ $80,000 per year + allowances. While low for NYcity it is a good USA wage for a consul. There is no way actual SR wages can relate to this.

BTW it doesn't matter if GOI or DK engages a maid. They both will have to pay to local wage levels. Else no visa.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Dec 2013 01:07

Dipanker wrote:I don't understand the recommendation of closing all the consulates? Shouldn't it be just easier to not bring any maid?

It is not just the maid issue. Diplo staff don't want their kids arrested and handcuffed by NYPD which seems to have it in for Indians acc to the article.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 24 Dec 2013 01:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:
JwalaMukhi wrote:If diplomats think that they could bring along their families with them, then maids see what they are missing. They do not have their immediate family available to them. Tough luck, it is a spartan military posting for the maids. But for the diplomats it is fairyland posting. This dichotomy leads to maids jumping ship at earliest opportunity.
This is absolutely correct. DK was getting paid USA wages while SR was getting paid India wages. Inherently unstable. Shows IFS incompetence IMHO.

It's as easy for an Indian diplomat not to bring maids to NYC as it is for an American diplomat to do without subsidized American cheese and beer in Delhi. These little perks are given to each other in the spirit of getting along as they should. After all, what does "diplomacy" stand for?
BTW a maid is not a 'perk'. This is a human being you are talking about.

Everyone's a loser, except for the maid. You couldn't make it up ...

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 24 Dec 2013 01:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:AFAIK DK was being paid ~ $80,000 per year + allowances. While low for NYcity it is a good USA wage for a consul. There is no way actual SR wages can relate to this.

BTW it doesn't matter if GOI or DK engages a maid. They both will have to pay to local wage levels. Else no visa.

Any source? If not you are just trolling.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Dec 2013 01:17

Dipanker wrote:
...

No we should close all consulates just because our IFS officiers can't bring along maids.

Or as some wise Roman said "In Rome do as Roman does".

If you had actually paid attention, you would have understood that the author was expressing concerns of Indian diplomatic staff about working in NYC. Either one can consider those concerns with respect for the employees--which is what the diplomats are--or one can be arrogant and dismissive.

And it is not wrong to expect reciprocal friendliness, just foolish to assume it, as it turns out.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 24 Dec 2013 01:18

saip wrote:I am not sure why people are talking of retaliation when all India was doing is removing the extra privileges that were granted, for whatever reason, to US diplomats. Even Indian ambassador is not exempt from airport frisking while a low level american diplomat is exempt at Indian airports. I hope now with the surrender of IDs same rules will apply to US diplomats in India.

The problem was the manner in which it was done. Things could have been handled in much more low key fashion but still achieving the same objective. Instead the govt. decided to make huge ruckus ( at least for one day ), called America barbaric, the talk show hosts went berserk, and paid goons vandalized pizza place. All that was not good optics. Then the climb down was even more spectacular, clearing the C-130 deal in hurry to placate the Uncle, something which could have been used a leverage otherwise.

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 24 Dec 2013 01:23

Good point by Dipanker. By huffing and puffing and threatening to blow the brick house down, we achieved nothing and lost leverage instead. Could have taken far more effective retaliatory steps quietly.. can learn many things from Putin's Russia in these matters...

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 24 Dec 2013 01:26

Theo_Fidel wrote:
...
BTW a maid is not a 'perk'. This is a human being you are talking about.

I guess 100 marks to you for sensitivity and a big fat zero for the other guy! Shabaash!

Programmers are human beings, not resources, team is a word used to mean oxen, etc. looking forward to your battling against modern English!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Dec 2013 01:27

Who lost India? Policy considerations for Rand Paul/Dennis Kucinich 2016
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/f ... aul-dennis

A recent report in The Diplomat, which covers the Asia-Pacific region, says initiatives of an India-Japan alliance could form a bulwark against Chinese ambitions. A partnership that would of course include the U.S., Japan’s Prime Minister Shinzo Abe “set out grand visions during his first term as PM in 2006-2007 for a strategic quadrangle consisting of Japan, India, Australia and the United States — something China perceived as tantamount to an Asian NATO, out to balance a rising China.”The Pentagon has been pitching the same for at least a generation, probably since the moment after the phrase “Pacific Century” came into usage.
But maybe India didn’t get the memo. In Saturday’s Financial Times: “India’s deeply fractious parties have finally found a cause to unite them — resentment of the US. From Sonia Gandhi, head of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, to Narendra Modi, the Hindu nationalist candidate for prime minister, New Delhi’s leaders are outbidding each other in outrage over the strip and search in New York this week of Devyani Khobragade, an Indian consular official.”
Possibly there is something more behind the outrage in the curious case of Ms. Khobragade, something which was always there, lurking, awakening now as rumors of war with China are reported.To think that India would fall in line as a secondary partner to America, which India likely sees more correctly as “Anglo-America” after hundreds of years of brutal occupation by England, would be stunningly presumptuous.But this is the subtle context of American dominance today. It presumes that the worlds beyond our borders deeply desire to abandon their roots, their ancient, indigenous gods and god kings and queens and aspire to be externalized, globalized versions of Coke, Cal Klein, football and “the operative faith of the American people,” which Will Herberg in his study of American religious sociology called “the American Way of Life.” As Herberg once declared America to be a “cut flower culture,” we are today intent on cutting the rest of the world’s nations, cultures and tribes from their original roots and bearings.Arizona Sen. John McCain’s stunning naivety for a man of his age and experience is on display again, this time in Kiev. He naturally assumes that Ukraine — a historically Orthodox country like Russia — is and wants to be an extension of America and American influence; that is, an extension of himself. It is the stuff of Kafka (“In the Penal Colony” comes to mind, and the dangerous nostalgico politics of Spain’s Gen. Francisco Franco). It is the palest and most dangerous form of “Wallace and LeMay” imperialism and McCain its final avatar, decades out of sync with the age. It applies to India as well, and everywhere.America needs new thinking, and new thinkers on the interests of Americans abroad: Rand Paul/Dennis Kucinich 2016.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 24 Dec 2013 02:00

Dipanker wrote:I don't understand the recommendation of closing all the consulates? Shouldn't it be just easier to not bring any maid?

There is a local problem in NY, where the city is hostile to the Indian consulate. In that case, there will be continuing efforts at harassing the consulate, the UN mission and the staff posted there, regardless of the outcome of this particular case or any decision to not bring maids. I'm basing this assessment on the following timeline -

2003-2010 - NYC fights suit to try and collect property tax from the consulate and mission
2010 - Local court rules against NYC
2010 - First case filed against Ms. Malhotra
2011 - Second case against Mr. Dayal
2011 - Case against Ms. Biswas
2013 - Third case against Ms. Khobragade

Aside from this, technology may simply have overtaken the need to distribute consulates all over. Fact is if biometrics are collected at application and correlated upon entry to India, it will be more than what is done today.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Dec 2013 02:03

the airport free pass is basically for kola-angrez admies purposes to do the intense hawala market and swiss bank transactions. they even give bakshees via route afsars via middle-east ports to all the way to swiss banks. pakis are filled with joy when they get these bakshis, so they are part of it. if you consider ramana's post in modi dhaaga, he highlights the intentions of the kolas much before even they wrote their manifests for earlier elections -.. heck why even write it, it is all given. they have to preserve this anti-gen-paddy modus operandi so that subdue process prevails and yellow seas are never crossed (bakshees framework guarantee). it is not going to be esay to beat this establishement even in 2014 as the nexus and corruption nervous system is strong. all these aap ka dill is just a small good feel factor for the aams., but the real elites (not the single vision dillites) remains succumbed to all these firangi invasions of n-kinds.

we need a revolution to really put a RTI act that gets more details of all gov process.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 24 Dec 2013 02:04

... and for once BRF being behind the curve could not figure out GOI would back down and leave them up the creek without paddle. So digging hole deeper continues unabated.

Your could have asked any NRI/PIO who has been in USA for some time. It is not hard to figure out how GOI would pan out. Esp. when it is clearly in the wrong as here.
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For NRI/PIO types the most degrading encounters often occur at the Indian consulates. There are a few good people there but a sizable fraction are self-centered bullies and out to humiliate those who have kept their Indian passports. God forbid you need a passport renewal within 2 weeks. It is hard to withhold judgment when you have seen just how prone to lying and making up stuff folks in the consulate are. American tourist types in particular are abused to the hilt as they are clueless on how to deal with the system. I once flew down to Houston consulate because the officer there demanded that I come down if I want my renewal in 3 weeks. Only once I got there I was told that they do not meet applicants in person. The official then has a temerity to say that I should wait in Houston till he was available. Several American tourist types were in the same situation.

Shutting the consulates down and doing everything by mail efficiently will be a huge improvement. Need a way to expedite for emergencies. Visa/Renewal on arrival would be an excellent idea.