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vera_k wrote:
There must be other motivations for bringing in a maid on the visa. Either security reasons or perhaps just altruistic reasons in helping the existing help share the money from the US posting.
As per the narration in Bharara's charge sheet:
In the fall of 2012, DK interviewed SR in DK's house in Delhi. SR had a trial period in Delhi, after which the visa work was started.
Suraj wrote:
This is not going to happen, since diplomatic immunity rightly prevents her from being subject to the legal system anymore.
Correct sir, unless she comes back to the US in her personal capacity
Well She had diplomatic immunity on the day of arrest as well by virtue of her position as Adviser to UN Mission of India . So no nothing could be done even if she visits unkil in her personal capacity. Immunity persists even after the transfer from current assignment, for the acts done during currency of immunity.
Why so much khujli over the fact that someone wants to hire a maid? Not to mention the fact that she might have been paid minimum wage? Despite the protestations of the state dept that 'perks' such as accomodation, health insurance, food etc be exempt, minimum wage in that situation is more than a minimum wage earner outside. Heck, in NY, that is just short of an itvity salary! (base level it-vity fellows earn what? $50k?) Also, it is unknown how much Dk paid her maid in the US. Given that, it is pretty insincere to accuse her of underpaying her. Who cares what the common american thinks? As if s/he is fully aware of the realities of this case.
So her advisor role ends on the 31st which is tuesday. If she doesn't get her passport back by then, what happens? Assuming the state dept isn't willing to play ball I mean.
ldev wrote:Quite a few years ago there was some move by some leftist loony to move the UN from New York. Representatives of most countries, third and first world, overwhelmingly were against it, ...
Hmm... where did hear that last? Yeah, there was a thread here at BRF which got closed before I did IB4TL. third and first world? So there are some rightly righteous tharuld wereld countries too? News to me.
"We have been advised by the Government of India that Dr Khobragade was notified to the United Nations as a member of India's delegation to the United Nations General Assembly in September. We are currently looking into the matter," State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf told PTI today.
Well then why did USD a, DSS and USDA , NYPD acted in overzealous manner without first ascertaining her diplomatic status. In fact they informed , wrongly, to the court that she had no immunity except for consular functions. They did not even ask whether wage laws and labour laws would apply or not pursuant to Art 47. Did they ever ask the Mission if she had any more immunity before asking judge for warrant? After insulting and doing strip search DNA swabbing , cavity search, custodial rape they are looking into the matter. And their media and assorted apologist rake up issues unconnected with the issue. What did they gain by damaging relations? What did Preet Bharara gain by eggs on his face? In the light of these revelations how many NRIs/OCI/PIOs and Indian Americans are still supporting him? Are they immune to the insults heaped on their motherland?
matrimc wrote:eklavya: Dr. DK's past and current legal cases have no bearing on her arrest and US allegations (unless you are incorrectly assuming that US is still a colony of UK World has moved on). In US legal system accused is "innocent until proven guilty" (or insert the equivalent Latin phrase, if you prefer).
In the United Kingdom changes have been made affecting this principle. Defendants' previous convictions may in certain circumstances be revealed to juries. Although the suspect is not compelled to answer questions after formal arrest, failure to give information may now be prejudicial at trial. Statute law also exists which provides for criminal penalties for failing to decrypt data on request from the Police. If the suspect is unwilling (or even unable) to do so, it is an offence.[22] Citizens can therefore be convicted and imprisoned without any evidence that the encrypted material was unlawful. Further, the onus is on the defendant to decrypt the data, and having lost the key or the password is not considered reasonable excuse.
Quite barbaric if you ask me. Thank goodness legal systems of US and India are more just.
Sir, may I compliment you on the judicious use of colours to make your excellent point.
Sir, in addition to its celebrated legal system, I have heard it said that the US has wonderful weather, the people have excellent teeth, the shop assistants are friendly, gasoline is cheap, and live-in maids in NYC make about $500,000,000,000 in a slow year, which is a fair wage, what do you say, sir?
Suraj wrote:If they now indicate that they will decline to grant her full immunity and declare her PNG, the best choice would be for India to remove her from the US beforehand, to avoid having to deal with US legal process.
I think you are thinking immunity is amnesty. So far state dept is not buying this argument. Immunity is only for duration of her UN post. It does not appear to amnesty for past and future actions.
USA is holding the passport and court has given her bail. If she absconds now there will be personal complications for her. USA system is odd in the sense judgement can be granted in-absentia. It is possible that she won't care and make a run for it. At that point it is a question of how determined USA is in withdrawing immunity and capturing her at an airport or in transit or needling further with interpol etc.
Theo nothing of that sort will ever happen. And no Immunity does not mean amnesty. Actions in prior to immunity and after immunity is subject to legal process. Except for wages and labour laws she would have been subject to other uS Laws. But since she had been accredited to full diplomatic status way mack in August at the time of arrest she would be immune for US jurisdiction. And Since wage laws related to Personal Members of Service Staff do not apply there could be no case ab-initio. Hence Interpol and RCN would not apply without reciprocal consequences to someone here in Delhi. They can do what they like but so can we. And no she will not make a run for it. Indian Diplomats and Consular Staff cant be looking like fugitive from Justice. Matter will get resolved in the light of biblical revelations made to USD by India.
eklavya wrote:Sir, in addition to its celebrated legal system, I have heard it said that the US has wonderful weather, the people have excellent teeth, the shop assistants are friendly, gasoline is cheap, and live-in maids in NYC make about $500,000,000,000 in a slow year, which is a fair wage, what do you say, sir?
I don't know about other matters but that is correct - usually yellow teeth not teeth of this color (or is it colour?)
Oh by the way about the colours, you haven't seen nothing not yet by no means my mon (or double-triple-qudruple negatives cannot be gorkked noways in our beloved Queen Mame Sahiban's ingileesh?)
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 27 Dec 2013 11:03, edited 1 time in total.
Theo_Fidel wrote:In that case there is nothing left but for MEA to issue a fresh passport, renege on any commitments and make a run for it. DK maybe waiting for the smoke to clear and things to cool a little, the sonar pinging to grow a little faint, before she bolts.
Well you want MEA to look like absconder?? Fugitive from justice , making a run for it?? For what?? For no fault of hers. If USD made a mistake, let them accept it and apologise and withdraw all cases as infructuous. Read what Mark Smith said in seeking Warrant for Dk arrest on her diplomatic status. That stand will get revised.
DK's status at the time of arrest is a significant development. Preet and his cohorts f*kedup big time. The entire conspiracy is belly up. This is the best possible outcome for Mera Bharat!!.
US will not apologize to India.
MEA/GOI will try to extract maximum concessions from US.
US may give a few concessions to cool things down.
US babus will be infuriated by the whole cockup.
US WILL try to build another rock solid case against a genuine offense this time. This time to coverup the previous f*ckup.
India specifically Indian media WILL again raise hue and cry.
Indian Gen.Elections...WoW
I like where this is going!!!
Prasad wrote:Why so much khujli over the fact that someone wants to hire a maid? Not to mention the fact that she might have been paid minimum wage? Despite the protestations of the state dept that 'perks' such as accomodation, health insurance, food etc be exempt, minimum wage in that situation is more than a minimum wage earner outside. Heck, in NY, that is just short of an itvity salary! (base level it-vity fellows earn what? $50k?) Also, it is unknown how much Dk paid her maid in the US. Given that, it is pretty insincere to accuse her of underpaying her. Who cares what the common american thinks? As if s/he is fully aware of the realities of this case.
Prasadji,
Unlike Europe, there is an underclass in the US, and when husband and wife are both working at professional jobs, having a part time maid to clean a few times every week is quite common (at least in California). Also, when the wife has small children, using a nanny part time or full time is common. Often, these workers are Mexican and undocumented. They are paid cash and less than the minimum. Also, taxes and social security deductions are not paid. A number of politicians have been caught hiring undocumented aliens, again mostly from Mexico. Unfortunately, they had the audacity of claiming to work in the legislature to stop hiring undocumented workers on one hand, and hiring one for their personal use in private. The question of hiring undocumented aliens is a loaded one in California, where the majority of fruits and nuts and other agricultural products are grown and harvested by workers from Mexico. And the work they do are paid by a wage that is far below the official minimum wage. Millions of Mexicans are doing this work every year and all are paid below the legal minimum and the ICE (old name INS) just ignores this. So, the khujli is not normal. It is however increased by saying that Dr. K mistreated the maid, trafficked with her, prevented her from going back to India, if she were a male, they would have accused her of sexually mistreating the maid. But US treatment to foreign countries has always been do as we say, not how we do.
Gautam
I dunno. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
She does not want to go to the hearings which means she can not really participate in her own defense.
Makes the likely hood of a conviction much higher, esp. if it is by jury. More esp. if SR chooses to show up.
Jury tends to believe missing defendant is evidence of guilt.
She has to look out for her personal interests and not some nebulous H&D moment.
My advice for her is not to play these game and not risk it.
Those 'brave' Eye-talian marines had no problems turning tail and running.
------------------------
Ramana,
Understood, but I consider him fair game as a non-citizen.
I would never question DK herself as a fellow citizen.
I don't think we should question her statements as some have.
--------------------------------
It think it is one thing to under pay a worker. If DK had paid SR say 20k PA this entire question would probably have never come up. It is the extent of wage discrepancy that triggers bells. All of us who have been through the prevailing wage process can attest to this.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 27 Dec 2013 11:22, edited 2 times in total.
eklavya wrote:Sir, in addition to its celebrated legal system, I have heard it said that the US has wonderful weather, the people have excellent teeth, the shop assistants are friendly, gasoline is cheap, and live-in maids in NYC make about $500,000,000,000 in a slow year, which is a fair wage, what do you say, sir?
I don't know about other matters but that is correct - usually yellow teeth not teeth of this color (or is it colour?)
Oh by the way about the colours, you haven't seen nothing not yet by no means my mon (or double-triple-qudruple negatives cannot be gorkked noways in our beloved Queen Mame Sahiban's ingileesh?)
Sir, the standard diet for an infant lucky enough to be born in the UK is cigarettes (alas, now passive, until the age of 16), chocolate, chicken tikka masala, coca cola, and a weekly encounter (not mandatory) with the family toothbrush.
Those poor fellows born in the USA are subjected to milk, cheese, dental plans, and over zealous live in maids (with world class human rights) which are much too liberal with the tooth paste/brush.
Theo_Fidel wrote:I dunno. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
She does not want to go to the hearings which means she can not really participate in her own defense.
Makes the likely hood of a conviction much higher, esp. if it is by jury. More esp. if SR chooses to show up.
Jury tends to believe missing defendant is evidence of guilt.
She has to look out for her personal interests and not some nebulous H&D moment.
My advice for her is not to play these game and not risk it.
Those 'brave' Eye-talian marines had no problems turning tail and running.
-------------------
All this, if the americans ensure that it goes to trial. If that happens, then DK isn't the only one in trouble. You can bet the house on that. Just for her arrest, the americans have lost all the privileges given to them in India. If it actually does go to court, you can expect a lot more blowback from the govt. Besides, if the UN thing does come out to be true, then the original arrest warrant itself is in question, given that the DSS afsar states that the only immunity she currently has is consular and hence limited. Asthivarame stronga illa. Apram enna pesi enna prayojanam? That is why I'm very doubtful if all this will even see the inside of a courthouse.
This data is for all immigrants, including those who have been here for years, and have added to their education. This data also doesn't account for English language skills - for practical purposes, anyone who has trouble communicating in English will be reduced to working odd jobs as unskilled labor.
Prasad wrote:So her advisor role ends on the 31st which is tuesday. If she doesn't get her passport back by then, what happens? Assuming the state dept isn't willing to play ball I mean.
Nothing. Tango dance will continue for some more time. She will continue to enjoy her immunity as member of Permanent Mission of India to UN. Since chargesheet was filed when she had immunity that persists throughout her life. As Consular (DCG and Acting CG) she was not subject to Work permit related Laws as was Members of Service Staff including IBDA , read Srt 47.So case does not hold. Arrest was in violation of Art 41 and to be dealt with in accordance with theSOP laid down by S.I Pullikandan of KP. Preet baby is left with an orphaned issue on his hand and egg on his face and US Mission and assorted employees are tasting what Reciprocity means . I am sure all right thinking Americans, PIO NRIs and OCis and Indian-Americans except ABCDs would not be supportive of him or his action. I find lot of opposition to the arrest procedure in USA itself. This is a violation of Human rights as well. Main casualty is the goodwill that US had in India and Indo US relations. It will take a long time to repair the damage.
As regards family member of Dk , they are also subject to same immunity and same provision except where DK husband is doing employment for gainful purposes he would be subject to US jurisdiction. Also being US citizen he would be subject to their jurisdiction. But then it is their headache. If Dk wants to leave IFS and reside with her husband it would be her choice and her consequence. India might not be concerned then. But as long as She is in IFS it is indeed our concern.
chetak wrote:
While the US authorities were engaged in protecting their ‘asset’ by fabricating various legal spins, matters exacerbated due to another development in India. On October 12, 2013 an American vessel MV Seaman Guard Ohio, belonging to the US firm AdvanFort, was apprehended by the Indian Coast Guard for unauthorized presence in India’s territorial waters. The vessel was being replenished with 1600 liters of high speed diesel by an Indian fishing trawler.
what was the ship doing I wonder
planting listening devices on the sea floor?
scanning the airwaves?
loading or unloading 'special' cargo?
how could they be that incompetent that they did not carry enough fuel and had to get it from an Indian fishing trawler!
It is when events DK's arrest happen that we realize how fragile Indo-US ties are and their potential catastrophic impact on Defence ties. Boy, Am I glad that the Saint was India's DM at the time when we narrowed down to Rafale and refused to bend to MMS's pressure for SH as a quid pro quo for the IUCNA. We have selected GE 414 as engine for LCA and this will force the IAF not over rely on the desi LCA as the potential solution for IAF light fighter requirements in case we get sanctioned at the whim of a SD chaprasi.
Brahma Chellaney had also asked the question if US is willing to sell India lethal weapons when it seeks to balance it's ties with PRC. We OTOH are better off buying non lethal kit like C-130s until a desi plan B emerges. Same for the P8s, we will have keep a Russian alternative in balance to stave of the threat of sanctions.
India would better off investing its money on submarines than expensive aircraft carriers that would drain our forex. Recall Lord Mountbatten had successfully steered India's focus from submarines to ACs in the 60s when tried to stop India from placing orders for British submarines. The soviets stepped in andwe bought their foxtrots. This episode and the HDW fiasco are the reason why India's submarine force is in such a pathetic state today.
We are letting outsiders dictate our priorities on our naval doctrine.
I believe this incident has 2 relevant points and both of them greatly upset me.
- The disgraceful treatment meted out to DK.
- The (non reciprocated) privileges given to US diplomats by GoI including possibly tacit cooperation in smuggling out SR's family.
That said, I'd like to look at what MEA needs to do differently (apart from strict reciprocity etc)
1. I'm concerned that DK's spouse is a US citizen and she gets posted to the US. I would have imagined that the diplomatic corps of any
country would have restrictions on diplomats marrying/ having a relationship with a foreigner and even when permitted, care would be taken
that that diplomat does not get posted to a country his/her spouse is either a citizen of, or even has close relations with.
(all the more important when Unkil actively spies on its allies, let alone its enemies).
There are similar restrictions in the armed forces and in the corporate world (spouse cannot work for a competitor). It looks like MEA went
out of its way to give DK a posting to the country of her choice.
2. Its about time that MEA has a blanket ban on sending domestic help from India, to work for its diplomats. Those who require help can hire
people at the prevailing local wage (which, as we have seen in earlier posts, is not unaffordable for DK's family). It would sharply reduce
incidents of asylum seeking and ease a lot of internal administration work in our consulates. Non sensitive clerical tasks can be given to
locals, or NRI's, so that we send fewer diplomats to any country, but they are of better quality and work on higher level tasks.
Last edited by Deans on 27 Dec 2013 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
In a major reprieve for the 35 crew members of the US-based anti-piracy ship Seaman Guard Ohio arrested on charges on entering Indian waters illegally with arms and ammunition, a court in Tamil Nadu's Tuticorin granted them conditional bail on Thursday.
The bail has come after their petitions were dismissed twice in the last 60 days since their arrest, once by a court in Tuticorin and later by the high court bench in Madurai. The crew members are lodged in central prisons at Puzhal in Chennai and Palayamkottai in Tirunelveli. The court granted bail on a fresh petition filed by the crew, accepting their argument that chargesheet was not filed in the case even after 60 days had elapsed after their arrest.
Granting them bail, the court ordered that each of the crew furnish surety for Rs 10,000 for their release. It also ordered that the crew appear at the office of the Q branch police which is investigating the case and sign everyday.
Sunanda Bhagavathy, DSP, Q branch who is the investigation officer in the case declined to comment. "I am afraid I cannot comment on the issue," she said.
But sources in the Q branch said the delay was primarily due to reluctance on the part of crew members to part with information during investigation. The crew members are yet to produce documents permitting them to possess weapons and the source of the huge cache of arms, sources said.
The arrested men first moved the sessions court in Tuticorin seeking bail. But the petition was dismissed on October 30 as the investigation was in a preliminary stage. The crew then appealed in the Madurai high court bench. But the appeal was also dismissed on December 18 as the police argued that the crew were yet to produce documents on the source of the arms and ammunition and were not revealing the intention for entering Indian waters illegally.
But when the hearing came up in judicial magistrate court in Tuticorin, the advocate appearing for the US ship crew argued that all the 35 were eligible for bail now due to the failure of the police to file chargesheet within 60 days. The judge accepted and granted them bail.
A couple of examples to amplify the point in my previous post:
The Indian embassy in Tehran had an Indian diplomat at the visa desk whose work is to handle routine visa queries/ give out forms / check
visa status of applicants etc. It was nice to hear him speak good Farsi, but that work could easily have been handled by a local English
speaking Iranian, at a lower salary. On the other hand, there was no one in the Embassy who could help me with laws governing foreign investment. I got far more help at the British embassy (at that time I worked for a UK MNC in India and was sent to Iran to set up a possible
India-Iran JV) as they had a trade expert whose role was to facilitate British investment in Iran.
Similarly, in Moscow, members of our diplomatic staff handled routine visa queries and manned the library at the Indian cultural centre. Either task could have been done cheaper and more efficiently by a local Russian speaking Indian, or English Speaking Russian.
Its the same with Western embassies in India, which have `local MUTU's' to interact with the `natives' on routine tasks.
chaanakya wrote:
Well She had diplomatic immunity on the day of arrest as well by virtue of her position as Adviser to UN Mission of India . So no nothing could be done even if she visits unkil in her personal capacity. Immunity persists even after the transfer from current assignment, for the acts done during currency of immunity.
US does not recognize that, I've given the case law previously, e.g.,
Boanan v Baja http://www.leagle.com/decision/20097826 ... 2d155_1770
Their interpretation of full diplomatic immunity is that it exists so that a host country cannot harass a diplomat and keep him/her from performing his diplomatic function. But full diplomatic immunity expires when the person leaves the post. What remains is "residual diplomatic immunity" and they have ruled that it applies only to official acts performed during the period of full diplomatic immunity. They've ruled specifically that hiring of domestic help is not an official act, even if, on occasion, the domestic help has aided with official parties, etc.
Mail Today has also learnt that US ambassador Nancy Powell had to cancel a scheduled trip to Nepal after the foreign ministry refused to extend her special privileges that usually come with the job. Powell had notified the foreign ministry about her trip and asked for the use of the protocol lounge and other privileges like security and immigration assistance, but she was curtly reminded that all of these had been withdrawn as retaliatory measure to protest the treatment of Khobragade. The US Embassy did not reply to MAil Today’s email for a response on this issue.
To make its displeasure even clearer, US deputy chief of mission Michael Pelletier was summoned on Christmas eve — a time when most Americans would be having a traditional turkey dinner with the family — and served a demarche or diplomatic protest by Vikram Doraisamy, the head the Americas desk at the external affairs ministry.
We "retaliate" in a childish manner like Pakis. We need to do things that are right, not in response to someone else. We should remove all US privileges because it is our policy, not in response to someone else.
It is a wonder how Indian diplomats manage in USA without extending available privileges. USA diplomats seem to cancel scheduled events rather as also ask for privileges.
Prasant wrote:That is what I don't understand - what did privileges have to do with a scheduled trip to Nepal?
She wanted use of the VIP lounge etc at IGIA, which would not normally be given unless it was to an Ambassador going on
official work involving India (unless they pay for it).
@Prasad What is argued here is that DK has full immunity, Wage laws do not apply to Consular Officials, Arrest was made in contravention of VCCR, no case is made out outside of VCCR purview, there was no visa fraud and that there was no violation of minimum wages and that IBDA falls within the definition of Member of service staff in domestic service, that it was not wage of employment of IBDA within the purview of work permit.
As having full diplomatic immunity residual immunity will persist.
As having consular immunity , she was not covered under local laws and hence charges are not made out.
There are no other charges under local laws that would persist after consular immunity expires on completion of term.
Bajas case is different and does not apply here in toto.
US may dispute but then they become open to similar interpretation here in desh.
WASHINGTON: The new Indian Ambassador to the US, S Jaishankar today met top officials of the State Department to convey India's strong protest over the arrest of its senior diplomat in New York over visa fraud charges, even though she had diplomatic immunity.
Immediately after presenting copies of his credentials to the Office of Chief of Protocol, Jaishankar met the Under Secretary for Political Affairs Wendy Sherman and the Under Secretary for Management, Patrick F Kennedy at the Foggy Bottom headquarters of the State Department.
Both the meetings were dominated by the arrest of Devyani Khobragade, in New York early this month, which India insists is in violation of the Vienna Convention.
During the meeting, Jaishankar is believed to have sought withdrawal of the charges, and strongly objected to the manner in which the US government evacuated Indian citizens -- family members of the maid of the Indian diplomat -- undermining the judicial sovereignty of India.
No official details of the meetings were available.
KJoishy wrote:We "retaliate" in a childish manner like Pakis. We need to do things that are right, not in response to someone else. We should remove all US privileges because it is our policy, not in response to someone else.
Diplomacy between two nations always involves reciprocity and mutual give-and-take. For example, simple matters such as visa fees. Practice of statecraft cannot be expected to follow generally desirable personal traits such as 'always doing right things irrespective of what others do' etc. The US consuls and diplomats enjoyed certain privileges because they extended something else to us. This was beneficial to us. May be we extended disproportionately more to them than what we received in return. That is a different matter though. Now that, the US has decided that its privileges were no longer available to Indian diplomats, naturally, India extends the same courtesy to our American friends. Nothing more and nothing less.
KJoishy wrote:We "retaliate" in a childish manner like Pakis. We need to do things that are right, not in response to someone else. We should remove all US privileges because it is our policy, not in response to someone else.
Reciprocity always has corresponding component. It is in response to some thing or someone else's action. Policies in Diplomatic relations is also reciprocal , sadly, we were too generous. Had a looooong history. To Wit Prithviraj Chauhan.
Deans wrote:
1. I'm concerned that DK's spouse is a US citizen and she gets posted to the US. I would have imagined that the diplomatic corps of any
country would have restrictions on diplomats marrying/ having a relationship with a foreigner and even when permitted, care would be taken
that that diplomat does not get posted to a country his/her spouse is either a citizen of, or even has close relations with.
(all the more important when Unkil actively spies on its allies, let alone its enemies).
There are similar restrictions in the armed forces and in the corporate world (spouse cannot work for a competitor). It looks like MEA went
out of its way to give DK a posting to the country of her choice.
2. Its about time that MEA has a blanket ban on sending domestic help from India, to work for its diplomats. Those who require help can hire
people at the prevailing local wage (which, as we have seen in earlier posts, is not unaffordable for DK's family). It would sharply reduce
incidents of asylum seeking and ease a lot of internal administration work in our consulates. Non sensitive clerical tasks can be given to
locals, or NRI's, so that we send fewer diplomats to any country, but they are of better quality and work on higher level tasks.
Agreed on both. There are several disturbing facts in DK episode that MEA officials should be held answerable to. One rule of thumb in intelligence / diplomatic circles is not to let someone who could have a foreign leverage in position of influence. If some IFS official wants to marry a citizen of another country (even if that person is a PIO), we should immediately transfer the IFS official to another unrelated country. The foreign national married by IFS can very easily be compromised as they are not Indian citizens and don't owe allegiance to India. Their loyalty and allegiance are to their country of citizenship. Not sure why this issue is raised by Indian media. May be once the immediate issue is resolved, DK should be recalled and posted to a neutral third country for this very reason and this rule should be applied to every other IFS official that has a foreign spouse.
World has moved on). In US legal system accused is "innocent until proven guilty" (or insert the equivalent Latin phrase, if you prefer).
