India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 28 Dec 2013 21:13

Yes, it is quite odd that higher-ups in US state department have not acted quickly.. and goofed big time..specially when for the first time in US's history we are seeing unprecedentedly more Indian-Americans in some top positions, who ought to know better. For example Nisha Desai Biswal's(First Indian-American point person for South Asia) deputy is Atul Keshap (who has done a stint in embassy in New Delhi). Of course, Biswal's old boss at USAID was Rajiv Shah
Some others, in key positions, for example:
Puneet Talwar - assistant secretary of state for political military affairs.
Vikram J. Singh - deputy assistant secretary of defence for South and Southeast Asia
Sri Srinivasan - First Indian American judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals in DC

Not to mention, for the first time we have ambassador(s) (Vinay Thummalapally), may be the next surgeon general (VK Murthy), Arun Kumar (leads the trade promotion arm of commerce Department - BTW a physicist from Kerala

), G. Ghosh (Global Development council)

Of course, one of the famous, who has been on the cover of Time (and has been included in 100 powerful/influential and has won quite a few accolades from India/NRI crowd), is our "Sheriff of Wall Street" Preet Bharara, who I guess, will loose all his admiration from many.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2013 21:19

svenkat wrote:SagarG,
IT industry employs thousands of people and brings billlions of $ revenue ,to cite one important issue.

Which of course is the biggest thing driving Indo-US ties and our greatest dependence on the US. But we are not alone in that..

Thousands of India who go to US for higher education which is another.

Here, I'd say its the US which is the unabashed beneficiary...a) recipient of Indian talent b ) recipient of hard earned Indian forex.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 28 Dec 2013 22:00

I wonder how many of the posters on this thread are going to apply for work visa to USA. Jingoistic talks of muh tod jawab like closing of us offices in Hyderabad are pain in ass fir them. And I notice some prominent mullahs are absent from this thread. Wah ri maya......kahi dhoop kahi chaya.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 28 Dec 2013 22:04

matrimc wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Kerry and whether they are washing their hands off now and implicating a MUTU.
I am sorry but Ms. Nisha D. Biswal is an American. There is nothing like MUTU just because she has a POI sounding name.

Yes, she is an American citizen but she came to US as a small child from India, has lot of connections in India, something I believe she is proud of, and is positive.

Kerry, for example called it a “great American” story “of a woman who left a small town in India at age 6 to come to America and now becomes one of the most important leaders in the Department of State as Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia”

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 28 Dec 2013 22:32

With respect to the MUTU's looks like even the GOI is aware of this and expressed its displeasure

India Finds New Methods to Punish U.S. Diplomats

A little-noticed aspect of the uproar has been India’s unhappiness with American officials of Indian descent. The federal prosecutor on the case, Preet Bharara, is of Indian descent, as are many officials on the South Asia desk of the United States State Department.India has a fraught relationship with members of its own diaspora. Commercials and Bollywood films often treat such people with mild contempt, and in the Khobragade case, Indian officials have said they believe that their counterparts in the United States treated India poorly in an excessive show of loyalty to the United States.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 28 Dec 2013 22:34

@matrimc and @amberG. ^^^. +1.

I am a bit distressed by this MUTU talk. When you look at what all these Indo-Americans have achieved for themselves and how they've paved the way for their cohorts, you have to admire them. They overcame significant odds Europeans or Latinos did not have to.

I for one would prefer to have them such positions versus the Robin Raphels, Christina Roccas or the Shirin Tahir-Khelis. Or, the eurocentric WASP class.

Of course, Desai and the others are going to put American interests first. That's part of the oath they took. US policy vis a vis India is institutionalized and it would surprise me greatly if MUTU was involved. That is just not the way it works.

Bharara too has not singled out Indians (Gupta). In fact Jamie Dimon probably feels that PB has it in for him given the number of suits.

I'm all for reciprocal treatment of all (including US) diplomats but let's do it in a non-vindictive, businesslike way. Not paki-like way.

In one comment on BRF I too have been guilty of blowing my stack re Snowden.

There's bigger game afoot. The Chinese media are agog: they really want Indo-US relations to crater.

I think the reciprocity issue should be siloed and kept separate from the strategic convergence and cooperation.

My guess is that if Modi becomes PM, relations with the US will not be hurt as much as the PRC would like them to be. NaMo is nothing if not pragmatic and the visa issue will be quickly forgotten.

JMT

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2013 22:44

Cosmo_R, There never was any fidelity to the Indo-US ties. They were all a show from US to induce behavior in PRC. MMS kowtowed so much to US interests in this illusory ties with his diplomats bending over backwards to accommodate US that the lows are being tested. Its egg on face of MEA that all they are doing is removing the extra facilities that they unilaterally gave US diplomats for who know what quo? In this the MEA behaved like Chinese mandarins who gave the colonial powers trading rights which were not theirs to give in first place. All that delusion is being revealed.

As for Indian Americans its another delusion to think they can go against US interests where they are impacted. And its not like GOI has done anything to further their interests!

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 28 Dec 2013 22:46

it is ironical that all these indian origin people in power turn out to be mutu's while tulsi gabbard bats for us (or rather dharma?)

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 28 Dec 2013 22:51

Cosmo_R wrote:I am a bit distressed by this MUTU talk. When you look at what all these Indo-Americans have achieved for themselves and how they've paved the way for their cohorts, you have to admire them. They overcame significant odds Europeans or Latinos did not have to.

the argument is that, they have not.

they have only showed that you cannot be true to your roots or be indian, if you have to make it in american politics and power babu positions. most have reneged on their native religion - "bobby" jindal, "nikki" haley..i don't know about the preet and other indian names thrown here and i won't be surprised if they have consciously avoided the indian association.

this is not what other ethnicities/groups do. they actually make a song and dance of their background and use it to their advantage and not something to be ashamed of or avoided / downplayed etc.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Dec 2013 22:56

Gus, AmberG is right in one way. By doing their job well they have paved the way for the locals to trust other Indian Americans in sensitive jobs.
And they are there.

This is a test of them also.

AniB · Post by **AniB** » 28 Dec 2013 23:07

Ramana, Gus, these are pertinent observations. Indians are opportunistic (that's good cognitive awareness), but being ashamed of Indic roots displays vestiges of MaCaulay that I worry wont be exorcised for generations.

I spent a lot of time surfing pages of comments on US and Indian papers. At least 70% of ignorant khans despise Indics. But at least 50% of PIO in US and worthies in India think that rumors about her personal/family indiscretions are relevant to the Hegemons intemperance. A strange kind of prejudice (if her father did this or that, she must also be a chandalini).

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 28 Dec 2013 23:39

Cosmo_R wrote:@matrimc and @amberG. ^^^. +1.

I am a bit distressed by this MUTU talk. When you look at what all these Indo-Americans have achieved for themselves and how they've paved the way for their cohorts, you have to admire them. They overcame significant odds Europeans or Latinos did not have to.

I for one would prefer to have them such positions versus the Robin Raphels, Christina Roccas or the Shirin Tahir-Khelis. Or, the eurocentric WASP class.

...

If India gets shafted, does it matter whether it is done by white folks like Robin Raphael/Madeline Albright, or whether it is done by brown folks like Preet or Nisha Desai? As many here, and also the GoI has expressed, many of these folks tend to go to greater lengths to prove their loyalty to US, lest they be accused of partisanship.

We shouldn't mix the success stories of Indian-Americans with US view towards India. There is really no need for those in India to celebrate the achievements of Indian-Americans in US as though it means something for India. In reality, those folks grew up in US system and gained higher positions. It would be of greater interest to Indian-Americans in US as it proves to them that they too can achieve great positions. However, for Indians in India, there is really nothing to cheer for or deride. It simply shouldn't matter. It is a non-event for Indians in India. There was also a rediff article saying how good it has been for Indian-americans in US, and how India is rocking the boat! How does that matter??

There really is no reason to bring in success/failures of Indians in US into this thread. How does US DoS having multiple PIOs matter to India when they are clearly batting for US interests? Or for that matter, someone being a DA in NY or elsewhere. Whether it is Robin Raphael or Preet or Nisha doesn't matter to Indians/India. What matters is their approach towards India.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 Dec 2013 23:47

Documents show Devyani Khobragade 'overpaid' her maid Sangeeta Richard

A motorola tablet, Shehnaz Hussein cosmetics, expensive perfume, her own TV set: apart from a salary of $1400, those were some of the luxuries that Sangeeta Richard, domestic help of India's deputy consul general in New York Devyani Khobragade got from her employer. Documents available with Mail Today show that Richards was getting more than the US-stipulated $1374.75 she was to be paid. India wants to use this information to back its demand that the US to drop the legal case against the Indian diplomat.

Khobragade was arrested and stripsearched after American prosecutors alleged that she had lied on her visa form about the money paid to the domestic help, setting off an unprecedented row between Delhi and Washington. Richard and her family is now in the US under the protection of U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

Armed with a bunch of documents and forensic evidence, credit cards receipts and bank statement New Delhi wants to now prove that the US not only blundered on treatment of Indian Diplomat Devyani Khobragade but has no case against her at all. The ultimate aim is to tell Washington that to drop the case, it doesn't need to do more than advise the Department of Justice to withdraw its case against Khobragade.

The legal assessment given to South Block indicates that with this proof the case against the Indian diplomat will not stand in court. But Delhi is keen that the US state department persuades the DoJ drop the case before it comes up for hearing on January 13, on the basis of this new information.

Indian negotiators in New Delhi and Washington have told their interlocutors that with the outrage unabated in New Delhi, the larger relationship runs the risk of getting derailed and it is imperative that they find a solution to this as soon as possible. This is the reason why they are pushing for a speedier solution, though the Americans have told Indians the application for a visa status change and a G1 diplomatic visa can take up to two weeks.

The Indian side says that document clearly illustrates Devyani not only paid Sangeeta a good salary besides other expenses, but it waters down the case of the US prosecutor Preet Bharara accusing her of human trafficking and of lying on her visa forms.

For instance $145 is shown as the cost of cable TV connection that Devyani had installed in Sangeeta's room, while $60 has been shown as electricity charges for her out of the $250 that was deducted from Devyani's salary slip. an amount of $200 was paid to Sangeeta twice for which the receipts have been produced. Once it was paid by Devyani and second time by her husband Aakash.

Apart from this, a sum of $573 was being transferred to Richard's family's State Bank of India account in India, besides the expenses on her phone and recharge cards, which have also been accounted for in the details shared by India.

Interestingly the amount of $ 1000 which has been mentioned as the lodging charges is not included in her employment cost of $ 1402 besides the gifts she received. If all of it is added up, it amounts to $2400 which will be more than the amount a secretary to the Government of India earns at home.

The document also underscores the yet-unanswered questions: why did US agencies pick on Khobragade and why was Richard's family 'evacuated' from India by the US embassy, even as India was demanding that the missing domestic help be tracked.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/devy ... 33308.html

While US diplomats and Consular staff pay about $100 PM to Housemaid in India ( why do they need one??) much less than the going rate for the area and certainly seems below minimum wages prevailing in India, people have been accusing Dk of slavery, trafficking , exploitation, visa fraud and lying under oath and what not . Of course castigating whole of India in similar light.

Unfortunately this episode has put focus on the Indian American Community and questions their affinity towards Indianness so to say. I must say , here at this juncture, that they are under no obligation towards India. Any other person in that position would have been questioned similarly. It is wrong for Desi Indians to think that they would show consideration. The only thing they should expect of them is to follow the law, which in their over-zealousness they have failed to observe their own SOP.

BTW somehwere I read that 2% of Indian Americans contribute 10% of Income tax . They should be proud of their achievement and Indians certainly are. I am sure there are many more like Tulasi who would be defending the case of DK and Many of white Americans would too.

Indians , desi ones, are guilty of extending more than the required privileges. This episode might get the reciprocity restored to some extent. I don't think Americans are going to like it much but they would have no reason to complain either.

If Americans are pragmatic they would let it pass and try to repair the damage done and hope to do business as usual. Despite all bonhomie and friendliness they have been reducing the VISA quota and talking about outsourcing etc. a lot. On the other hand India has been businesslike in most of the cases. Even Nuclear Deal has not gone the way Unkil wanted, F-35 is thrown out. C-137 is accepted. and so on so forth.
I am sure India will deal with it level headed and response of American would be more mature than that of India when one of their Consul Staff is arrested for violation of Vienna convention.

People , who might compare this case with other cases of French Diplomat and Italian Marines. First of All Italian Marines had no immunity and had no business to kill Indians even in International waters. French Diplomat is accused of Sexual assault on her daughter by his french wife and clearly VCCR would not apply here. So comparison would be misplaced one , if any.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2013 00:08

MEA had too much faith in Vienna protocols to protect their diplomats while US wants to limit them.

AniB · Post by **AniB** » 29 Dec 2013 00:11

Dr DK. or GOI should/could sue for wrongful arrest. Sue who? Bharara, NY city, Federal Govt. Don’t know.

But this plays into the deeper question: do US local statutes override VCCR (Vienna Convention on Consular Relations). This seem to be a fantastic dynamic between the courts of the US and Executive envisioned by the 'founders' of the US Constituition. Seldon-like?

(http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewc ... xt=facpubs
B. There are The Nationalist and Internationalist Approaches

"The Rehnquist Court cases do not provide any objective means selecting among [extrinsic] sources," one commentator complains. "Once a court moves from the treaty's text, and its immediate orbit of structural context, it is left in a void in which it is simply free to use the materials which accord with the preferred result sought."

The state dept circular http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/150546.pdf is fascinating read but is it an abuse of power by the executive?
QUOTE: "It should be emphasized that even at its highest level, diplomatic immunity does not exempt diplomatic officers from the obligation of conforming with national and local laws and regulations. Diplomatic immunity is not intended to serve as a license for persons to flout the law and purposely avoid liability for their actions. The purpose of these privileges and immunities is not to benefit individuals but to ensure the efficient and effective performance of their official missions on behalf of their governments. This is a crucial point for law enforcement officers to understand in
their dealings with foreign diplomatic and consular personnel. While police officers are obliged, under international customary and treaty law, to recognize the immunity of the envoy, they must not ignore or condone the commission of crimes." Any crime or 'grave crime', or that judged by a court? VCCR 41 says 'no arrest pending trial' and 'pursuant' to judgment. Why did they allow bail?

Would like to see this case argued all the way to the Supreme Court to determine whether the US is in legal compliance with VCCR.

In a kamakazi stand , State Dept. could argue that since the Senate never ratified the Treaty, [(http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewc ... xt=facpubs] the United States of America need not abide by VCCR!

Either way this issue needs to be resolved. Will the US Judiciary support, or rebuke, the US Executive declarations (re: State Department guidelines for handling of consular officials breaking
local statutes).

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2013 00:30

ramana wrote:MEA had too much faith in Vienna protocols to protect their diplomats while US wants to limit them.

That is the cornerstone for conducting international diplomacy, Ramana garu. Failure to observe it would result in snapping of line of communication.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 29 Dec 2013 00:57

ramana wrote:MEA had too much faith in Vienna protocols to protect their diplomats while US wants to limit them.

There's nothing wrong with the MEA's desire to pursue the matter using VCCR/VCDR provisions. Keep in mind that when the US is on the other side of the problem, they will be the most vehement proponents of their own conveniently exaggerated view of these conventions. Remember the Raymond Davis episode - they asserted that a contractor was entitled to full diplomatic immunity, whereas DK, a fully accredited UN diplomat, is 'only' entitled to full immunity with respect to the discharge of her official duties, i.e. effectively consular immunity.

This is not a question of legalism. It's a power play, and the only way we will gain anything is by doing everything we can to punitively make it difficult for them in their mission in India as well, in addition to using every convenient loophole to help DK, without any apology for bending them for our benefit.

A common FUD tactic is to say 'not according to our rules' and then expect us to spend time and energy debating whether they're correct or not. That's not how the response should be, and GoI did the right thing by spending less energy on trying to debate the validity of the US case and more time making life difficult for the Americans in Delhi and elsewhere in India.

AniB · Post by **AniB** » 29 Dec 2013 01:21

The internal fracture line is the DoJ vs Executive declarations. Arshack is an American. Let him make hay.

The US is abiding or not abiding by VCCR per its own standards. Let their own Supreme Court decide which. Whateevr the result, will play well in major headlines worldwide. I think many a country might enjoy exploring Massanic cavities 'glove-lessly' .

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 29 Dec 2013 01:57

putnanja wrote:There is really no need for those in India to celebrate the achievements of Indian-Americans in US as though it means something for India. In reality, those folks grew up in US system and gained higher positions. It would be of greater interest to Indian-Americans in US as it proves to them that they too can achieve great positions. However, for Indians in India, there is really nothing to cheer for or deride.

Actually the opposite is true in that Indian-Americans should want India to do well because they are identified with India in the public eye as well as in their own heart for at least two or three more decades to come. So it is in Indian-Americans' interest to not let personal ambitions come in the way of helping India in what ever way they can. The real problem is that the largest Indian-American constituency - ITVity and students - are not a in a position to impact US policy towards India since most of them are in the pipeline of the [workexperience ->] work permit -> greencard -> citizenship -> sponsoring family pipeline. Those in positions of power are too few and are busy shattering the glass ceiling.

But if they are recognized for their achievements by the mother country the hope is that some of these hyper-achievers might be more inclined to help (or at least not hurt) India. Also, there is nothing wrong in expressing the genuine pride one feels about their hyper-achieving progeny.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 Dec 2013 04:04

Well said matrimc ^^^:

"Actually the opposite is true in that Indian-Americans should want India to do well because they are identified with India in the public eye as well as in their own heart for at least two or three more decades to come. "

We must get over this stuff. Are the Israelis complaining about American Jews? Would they agree with the statement:

"...no need for those in Israel to celebrate the achievements of Israelis in US as though it means something for Israel. In reality, those folks grew up in US system and gained higher positions. It would be of greater interest to Israelis in US as it proves to them that they too can achieve great positions. However, for Israelis in Israel, there is really nothing to cheer for or deride." ?

Desai, Srinivasan, Bharara et al are assets not liabilities

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2013 04:13

chaanakya wrote:
ramana wrote:MEA had too much faith in Vienna protocols to protect their diplomats while US wants to limit them.
That is the cornerstone for conducting international diplomacy, Ramana garu. Failure to observe it would result in snapping of line of communication.

The facts are at least 3 years US has been failing to observe the VPs and there is ample warning since Prabhu Dayal ordeal but MEA did not learn and sent DK into the New York cauldron. And at the top of the helm in MEA were secys with extensive US postings.
As to US issuance of T-1 visa SD ebiste shows India has been a target of that program from 2010 with the highest number of T-1 visa issued.
From tribal knowledge at least a 100 maids and guards absconded into the melt.

So what exactly do political councilors (aka First Secy) in MEA monitor while they are posted in the host country?

In Telugu there is a poem "Anuvu kaani chota, adi kulam ana raadu!"
Means in a non conducive place don't throw your weight around.

Look like MEA's ground was shifting on IBDA situation and they didn't know at least for three years. A little awareness would have avoided this situation of a un-Merry Christmas and un-Happy New Year.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2013 04:14

No one expects concessions from somebody just because they are in a position to influence and they are PIOs. Far from it. No one grudges the achievements of these people either and none can deny that they are iconic or inspirational. We should not confuse issues.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Dec 2013 04:21

matrimc wrote:..because they are identified with India in the public eye...

we are probably the largest group that are still finding its feet in massa, politically, culturally etc. every other group is pretty much a known entity. i think regular americans are confused as to what we are and how to go about with us. but i must say that in my second stint here, i feel that people are more warm to me. at least a dozen times, strangers would strike up conversations with me, initiating it, and were generally positive about us. it never happened outside school and office settings before with me.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2013 04:38

US 'colluded' with domestic help to frame Devyani - ToI

Even as information is awaited from the US embassy on the pay scales of local staff employed by US embassy and consulates, India on Saturday set up a working-level group to collate, assess and evaluate the information and monitor developments related to the Devyani Khobragade case.

Contrary to speculation, the government is showing no sign of softening its position over the Khobragade issue which threatens to mar relations with the US.

India continues to insist that the diplomat's domestic help, Sangeeta Richard, had conspired to exploit US immigration laws and that this was made possible with "active collusion" from the US embassy, state department and justice department.

New Delhi is still awaiting information about the salaries paid to the local staff. While the request was made more than a week ago, the Americans, however, continue to seek more time citing the absence of many officials because of Christmas vacations.

India is also looking at possible commercial facilities being run from within the US embassy compound that are open not only to non-US diplomats from third countries, but to Indians and non-diplomats as well.

The government is still smarting under the "evacuation" carried out by the US authorities of Sangeeta's family days ahead of the arrest of the diplomat. The manner in which the US acted, according to the government, suggests that the US believed the domestic help was a victim of trafficking facilitated by the India government and that even the Indian judiciary was not competent enough to handle the situation.

The role of the US embassy too has come under scrutiny. According to sources here, the US was fully aware that contractual arrangements reached with India Based Domestic Assistants (IBDA), in this case Sangeeta, by successive Indian diplomats posted in the US were intended to provide for domestic helpers on the basis of "deemed government employment, whereby US visas were issued to the IBDAs on official passport issued by Indian government in response to a diplomatic note seeking the visa".

"The US embassy was also aware that GOI paid for the air passages including home leave fares, provided comprehensive medical coverage that was exactly on par with the coverage provided to the Officer as well as lodging in diplomatic premises," said a source, adding that the Indian government made the mistake of believing that this awareness of the US embassy was shared with the state department. "Clearly the embassy misled the Indian foreign ministry," said the source.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Dec 2013 07:00

MJ Akbar:
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/analysis ... -live-2014

The best books I read this year were both from America. The Blood Telegram: India's Secret War in East Pakistan by Gary Bass, is less on the secret war conducted by Delhi and far more on Washington's secret policy of indifference towards the Pakistan Army's genocide in what was then East Pakistan during the fateful year of 1971, which ended in a war that created a new nation, Bangladesh. The second great read was The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War by Stephen Kinzer, which graphs the lives of the two brothers, one a secretary of state and the other a CIA chief. They controlled American foreign policy during the Eisenhower administration between 1952 and 1960.

If you think there are too many secrets on the cover, rest assured this is no exaggeration judging by what is revealed between the covers. If you want to revel in America-bashing, go ahead. There is enough to fuel a lifetime of fulminations. But I also marvelled at the unwritten sub-text, which neither author chose to stress: how focused and unrelenting America, with its many leaderships, is when it comes to national interest.

One wonders when India's foreign policy will be injected with a little more steel of self-interest, instead of being a charity shop of good intentions. It is good that Indian diplomats have stood up for one of their own in America. But this is only evidence of what they can do, individually and collectively, if they are given the freedom to stand up for their country with equal backbone.

I too, marvel at the unwritten sub-text, which is how unfocused and soft India, with its many leaderships, is when it comes to the national interest.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 29 Dec 2013 07:06

matrimc wrote:
putnanja wrote:There is really no need for those in India to celebrate the achievements of Indian-Americans in US as though it means something for India. In reality, those folks grew up in US system and gained higher positions. It would be of greater interest to Indian-Americans in US as it proves to them that they too can achieve great positions. However, for Indians in India, there is really nothing to cheer for or deride.
Actually the opposite is true in that Indian-Americans should want India to do well because they are identified with India in the public eye as well as in their own heart for at least two or three more decades to come. So it is in Indian-Americans' interest to not let personal ambitions come in the way of helping India in what ever way they can. The real problem is that the largest Indian-American constituency - ITVity and students - are not a in a position to impact US policy towards India since most of them are in the pipeline of the [workexperience ->] work permit -> greencard -> citizenship -> sponsoring family pipeline. Those in positions of power are too few and are busy shattering the glass ceiling.
...

Actually, the bold part is what many people expect, and so are disappointed when things don't work out that way. In fact, it rarely works out that way. The reason being that many of the PIOs attaining political positions in US try to distance themselves from their roots as much as possible, and don't want to show any soft corner for India lest they be accused of bias. So they go out of their way to "display impartiality". That is reality and there is no harm in recognizing that. I am still trying to figure out how exactly these people are "assets to India". They are assets to US, no doubt about that, given that they achieved these positions on merit. I am yet to see one PIO political appointee/politician take India's side on the current issue ( or for that matter, any pro-India issue which is at variance with US position). Only Tulasi sided with Devyani and she is no PIO. We can't compare Indians to Jews, as there already was a pro-Jewish lobby in US and jewish politicians don't hesitate to take pro-Israel position and criticize US official line. This can be seen in the recent past too. So comparing Indian-Americans and Jewish politicians is apples and oranges.

In fact, Indian-Americans getting high positions in corporate sector has sometimes led to greater business opportunities for India/Indians.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Dec 2013 07:30

A couple of observations:

1. People of Indian origin can also have the visceral dislike of India that Kissinger and Nixon ("why the hell anyone would reproduce in that damned country") had, and in an earlier time, Churchill ("Indians are a beastly people"). When policy is based on such emotions, it can be doubly damaging. In 1971, it almost led to a global war; in 1943 it led to no relief for the Bengal famine.

One can hope that people of Indian origin are less prone to this problem; and also by their presence, make others less prone to this problem.

But apart from that, American interests are what they are - they are determined by the historical trajectory of that nation, and no realistic number of PIOs is going to change that.

2. PIOs may not realize it, but their standing and India's standing in the US public imagination are intertwined. PIOs are seen as up-and-coming in part because of India's being seen as up-and-coming; and vice versa.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2013 07:44

putnanja wrote:The reason being that many of the PIOs attaining political positions in US try to distance themselves from their roots as much as possible, and don't want to show any soft corner for India lest they be accused of bias. So they go out of their way to "display impartiality". . . .In fact, Indian-Americans getting high positions in corporate sector has sometimes led to greater business opportunities for India/Indians.

An accurate assessment.

I am yet to see one PIO political appointee/politician take India's side on the current issue ( or for that matter, any pro-India issue which is at variance with US position).

I do not even want them to be on the Indian side. They have to specifically recognize the fact that the US erred and erred grievously.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 29 Dec 2013 07:49

If Indians should not expect well wishes from PIOs in high positions, they also should not highlight their roots in India when they come to India, like Urza Zia did when she was attending some function in Bihar. It is better off if they remain completely indifferent and stand only for the country they represent.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Dec 2013 07:49

Cosmo_R wrote:
Desai, Srinivasan, Bharara et al are assets not liabilities

A lot has been discussed on this topic, but can't help jump in. I want to say it as politely as I can, but the above bolded part is unadulterated horse manure.

At best, these PIO types are neutral (Srinivasan) as far as Indian interests go, and for the most, very detrimental: the PB, BJ, ND etc.

But the bigger issue is the comparison with Jewish people. Lets get real here. Bibi asks Obama to jump, and the latter will ask how high. Thats the level of influence Jews have. American Jews, US at large, and Israel are tied at the hip. The bonds at the racial, emotional, economic, religious, historical, you name it are deep, very deep. Lets not gloss over this special relationship between US and Israel. No US politicians will survive half a second if he/she were perceived to be anti-Israel, and the bar is so high, that even a minor criticism of Israel will by construed as anti-Semitic, and leading the chorus will be American Jews themselves. If an Israeli woman diplomat had suffered the ignominy of custodial rape that DK underwent, it would have been a scandal of colossal proportions in US.

I have lived in US for over 2 decades, and I know US lock, stock, and barrel. Personally, I have experienced the best of what US has to offer, and when I tried to act a little bit more uppity than the space that was allowed for me, I have seen the worst of US. So I know exactly the message US was trying to send India by legally raping DK.

As I mentioned many times, US is a colonial, racist, Christian, xenophobic empire, and its policy towards India (and much of non-white countries) reflects this. That coupled with India's deep pitfalls, its relative non-utility to US empire's interests mean that US India relations are not even in the same spectrum of US Israel relations. Furthermore, coupled with India's loose sense of nationhood means that those PIOs in position of power, even those inclined to be pro-India, do not have the same connection with India as American Jews have with Israel. Many of them are there for achieving personal upward mobility to make themselves worthy in the eyes of white power brokers, thats about it.

About the only benefit I see in PIOs in positions of power is that Americans see a brown face here or there doing well, and that even includes abominations like BJ, some collateral benefit accrues to India as a result of that, because many of the PIOs can't hide from their appearance however hard they try. Most of them do have the "India" tag plastered all over them as a result of their appearance.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 29 Dec 2013 07:55

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 077308.cms

WASHINGTON: In the annals of diplomatic exchanges across the world, it has long been understood that the United States will get more consular and protocol privileges than it will give to other countries. After all, the argument went, the US has the world's largest diplomatic corps, does more outreach, and its personnel face greater danger abroad than those from any other country. So if Americans demand greater security, easier access, more privileges in New Delhi or Islamabad or Kabul than it would give to diplomatic counterparts from these countries in Washington or New York, it was accepted without question — because it was reasoned that US diplomats faced more dangers and difficulties abroad than foreign diplomats did in the United States.

Someone in the US diplomatic service didn't apparently get this memo, and didn't quite understand and appreciate this aspect of foreign policy engagement. Their "foolish" overreach and "law and order" approach in the case of Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat who is in the dock in New York for allegedly stiffing her housekeeper, will result in a drastic and "unfortunate" reassessment of US privileges that the American diplomatic corps will find unpleasant, going by conversations with Indian diplomats and officials who have stood up in anger at what they see as a vindictive singling out of their colleague in New York.

The officials, all of who spoke only on background, refuted the US suggestion that they were being vengeful towards the US diplomatic corps and endangering the US embassy by explaining the context behind the removal of traffic barriers around the US embassy in New Delhi, ostensibly in retaliation for the treatment meted out their colleague in New York. The barriers, they said, had been installed several years back in the teeth of opposition from several other embassies nearby (notably the French and Swedish) which complained it constrained them. They were done as a special consideration for the Americans, despite the fact that the US side had turned down similar reciprocal requests from the Indian side. A decision to remove the barriers was taken several weeks back when the US side removed a diplomatic parking lane in front of the Indian embassy in Washington DC (that also served as security perimeter) and turned it into public parking.

While the action to remove traffic barriers in New Delhi coincided with the diplomatic spat, Indian officials made no secret of their desire to see a level playing field in what many of them see as an iniquitous distribution of privileges. One aspect that has caused much rancor, besides the larger issue of diplomatic immunity to consular officials, is the treatment of Indian diplomats at US airports (some of whom have been subjected to special pat downs because of their attire) compared to their US counterparts in India who breeze through with special security clearance. It's another matter - and one the Indian diplomatic corps chooses to gloss over - that the prevalent VIP culture in India is an enabler of such special treatment, which the US side says they does not insist on, except where there are security considerations.

It is the same culture that the US side believes has resulted in the Khobragade imbroglio. They see in the episode a sense of entitlement on part of the elite Indian Foreign Service. But the Indian diplomatic corps believe the issue is much larger — it is the sense of US entitlement that its diplomats be treated differently abroad than it would treat foreign diplomats in the US. The Khobragade case, one official explained, is illustrative of a larger malaise, reeling off instances where the US insisted on full diplomatic immunity to its personnel involved in egregious offenses, while in the Khobragade case "elevating what was a simple wage dispute to a human trafficking case." Also at stake in the case is the primacy of each country's legal-judicial system. Since the judicial process in the dispute between the diplomat and the housekeeper had already ticked off in India, US authorities should have respected the process.

So some two weeks after the two sides got embroiled in a diplomatic spat involving Khobragade and her troubles with a disgruntled housekeeper, the stand-off is no closer to resolution. On one side there is unabated rancor, resentment, and dismay. On the other side: surprise, stony silence, and indifference. In fact, the matter has gone off the boil with many US officials central to resolving the crisis going off on vacation in the holiday season even as the Indian embassy in Washington is having a changeover with the arrival of the new ambassador S Jaishankar.

The new envoy had initial meetings with the State Department soon after he reached Washington DC but the only thing that has emerged after the first engagement is that there is a yawning gap in perception between the two sides that will not be easily or quickly bridged. The US side is said to be mystified by the Indian "over-reaction" and would like the episode to be move out of the headlines before any attempt can be made to disentangle the issue from the legal and judicial quagmire where it has been thrown into. The Indian side is equally astonished at the bureaucratic approach and political indifference to the matter, which they say has thrown sand in the bilateral relationship which may be hard to remove.

What is emerging clearly from the episode is that the United States diplomatic corps is poised to irretrievably lose many of the unilateral privileges it had in India, a special dispensation that the Indian side had accepted quietly because they had been instituted for historical reasons - such as the commissary that sold duty-free western goods to embassy personnel and the American school attached to the mission. Stung by the Khobragade episode, the Indian side has made it clear everything will now come under the lens.

As SSridhar pointed out, the screws appear to have been turned on Nancy Powell and co a couple of times by India AFTER S.Jaishankar met Wendy Sherman. This article supports that line of thought as the Ambassador must have perceived a lack of interest or urgency on the part of SD officials in dealing with the issue and conveyed the same back home.
Nancy Powell seems to have a very insidious role in this whole affair and the sooner MEA, Delhi police and IB get her to assume the "position", the faster this will get resolved IMHO.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Dec 2013 07:59

shyam wrote:If Indians should not expect well wishes from PIOs in high positions, they also should not highlight their roots in India when they come to India, like Urza Zia did when she was attending some function in Bihar.

Oh, they do it to gather intelligence for the US using their roots. They are not always doing it out of love for their umbilical connections. There is nothing wrong in that either as they are only doing their job.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2013 08:07

CRS, BO jumps when Bibi aks because he wants to appear to be listening to Bibi.

When he doesn't want to jump he goes and makes deals with Iran.

The point is due to it gravitas US can appear to be what anyone wants it to appear but really be itself.

So dont be fooled by the Zionist words.

--

The TOI article still doesnt get to the root of why were such privliges granted and not revoked when the first sign of US non reciprocity was shown?

For instance after the Prabhu Dayal ignominy there was to be review within one year by Nirupama Rao the then Secy MEA. We never heard what happened and she went on to become Ambassador o US and plain forgot and now tweets about ties and relationships like a wise person when she plain neglected her job. MEA cadre needs to come clean house and then take the nation's help.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 29 Dec 2013 08:13

RamanagaGaru, in reference to US, when you say "itself", that includes Jews and their allegiance and bond with Israel. Thats my point. India and Indians (PIOs) are not in the same league.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2013 08:28

svenkat wrote:Theres no need to get personal.This is an internet forum where each is expressing their opinions,some more informed,some less so.

If you can't defend your views then don't express them on an "internet forum" because it is bound to be challenged by someone disagreeing with it. I take any threat to India very personally so yes I will get personal regarding this.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Dec 2013 08:30

putnanja wrote:quote="matrimc"]
putnanja wrote:There is really no need for those in India to celebrate the achievements of Indian-Americans in US as though it means something for India. In reality, those folks grew up in US system and gained higher positions. It would be of greater interest to Indian-Americans in US as it proves to them that they too can achieve great positions. However, for Indians in India, there is really nothing to cheer for or deride./quote]

Actually the opposite is true in that Indian-Americans should want India to do well because they are identified with India in the public eye as well as in their own heart for at least two or three more decades to come. So it is in Indian-Americans' interest to not let personal ambitions come in the way of helping India in what ever way they can. The real problem is that the largest Indian-American constituency - ITVity and students - are not a in a position to impact US policy towards India since most of them are in the pipeline of the [workexperience ->] work permit -> greencard -> citizenship -> sponsoring family pipeline. Those in positions of power are too few and are busy shattering the glass ceiling.
...
Actually, the bold part is what many people expect, and so are disappointed when things don't work out that way. In fact, it rarely works out that way. The reason being that many of the PIOs attaining political positions in US try to distance themselves from their roots as much as possible, and don't want to show any soft corner for India lest they be accused of bias. So they go out of their way to "display impartiality". That is reality and there is no harm in recognizing that. I am still trying to figure out how exactly these people are "assets to India". They are assets to US, no doubt about that, given that they achieved these positions on merit. I am yet to see one PIO political appointee/politician take India's side on the current issue ( or for that matter, any pro-India issue which is at variance with US position). Only Tulasi sided with Devyani and she is no PIO. We can't compare Indians to Jews, as there already was a pro-Jewish lobby in US and jewish politicians don't hesitate to take pro-Israel position and criticize US official line. This can be seen in the recent past too. So comparing Indian-Americans and Jewish politicians is apples and oranges.

In fact, Indian-Americans getting high positions in corporate sector has sometimes led to greater business opportunities for India/Indians.

Unless the Indian American community becomes 15 million or so and can politically turn states in favour of Democrats or Republicans, it is not fair for them to be expected to support India, many are on test of thier Americaness throughout thier lives. Many Americans are constantly testing them for it.

For ex. Bobby Jindal or Nicky Haley can run for elections unless the converted thier religion, and the US has taken great care to make sure among Indian Americans is a large share of leftists, children of personal who are more than willing to compromise India Interests in India for profit.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Dec 2013 08:42

Gus wrote:
we are probably the largest group that are still finding its feet in massa, politically, culturally etc. every other group is pretty much a known entity. i think regular americans are confused as to what we are and how to go about with us. but i must say that in my second stint here, i feel that people are more warm to me. at least a dozen times, strangers would strike up conversations with me, initiating it, and were generally positive about us. it never happened outside school and office settings before with me.

Can you post what period was these?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2013 08:42

Aditya_V wrote:Unless the Indian American community becomes 15 million or so and can politically turn states in favour of Democrats or Republicans, it is not fair for them to be expected to support India, many are on test of thier Americaness throughout thier lives. Many Americans are constantly testing them for it.

For ex. Bobby Jindal or Nicky Haley can run for elections unless the converted thier religion, and the US has taken great care to make sure among Indian Americans is a large share of leftists, children of personal who are more than willing to compromise India Interests in India for profit.

So basically what you are saying is that PIO's are dhobi ke kutte, na ghar ke na ghat ke.

Well I never trusted this set of people, but nice that people in India are waking up to the fact that the MUTU class is more anti India than US itself.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 29 Dec 2013 08:53

^^Can we stop generalizations? There are likely more RNIs than NRIs or PIOs; and a large set of NRIs/PIOs have the best interests of India at heart. They do a lot more than the unfortunately large incubus of the corrupt that inhabit the mother country pulling down the honest and good-hearted.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2013 08:57

AniB wrote:The internal fracture line is the DoJ vs Executive declarations. Arshack is an American. Let him make hay.

The US is abiding or not abiding by VCCR per its own standards. Let their own Supreme Court decide which. Whateevr the result, will play well in major headlines worldwide. I think many a country might enjoy exploring Massanic cavities 'glove-lessly' .

We are not worried about their Supreme Court Rulings and Headlines. This is full reciprocity and that's the end of it if US thinks Dk does not enjoy immunity then she will be extricated and will have to forgo future US prospects. Amirkhas would enjoy reciprocal behaviour and restricted ability to move around. That's all.