India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[SSridhar]

Prabhu Dayal reveals how Indian envoys in the US fall can victim to maids pursuing American dreams - Daily Mail

Was the above posted here ? Please read it.

[Sagar G]

^^Can we stop generalizations? There are likely more RNIs than NRIs or PIOs; and a large set of NRIs/PIOs have the best interests of India at heart. They do a lot more than the unfortunately large incubus of the corrupt that inhabit the mother country pulling down the honest and good-hearted.

Hmmmm must be an extremely secretive community that nobody knows or hears about especially at the time of need. Their adopted country is also engaged in pulling down honest and good hearted people as part of their policy so it is not only their mother country which is inhabited by such set of people. Seeing the response in Devyani episode only, I very much doubt that "There are likely more RNIs than NRIs or PIOs; and a large set of NRIs/PIOs have the best interests of India at heart" and I won't even go into the lahori roots of this "logic". Even GoI has started to see this fact.

[A_Gupta]

CRS, BO jumps when Bibi aks because he wants to appear to be listening to Bibi.
When he doesn't want to jump he goes and makes deals with Iran. The point is due to it gravitas US can appear to be what anyone wants it to appear but really be itself. So dont be fooled by the Zionist words.

The phrase "many leaderships of America" that MJ Akbar used comes to mind. Even the six months to come to a deal with Iran has been very unpopular in the pro-Israel lobby, and people like Democratic Senator Menendez in New Jersey have been actively working to undermine BO on the Iran issue.

Anyway, I think the aspects of the Israel-American relationship that are fueled by the American domestic pro-Israel lobby is very unhealthy; and I would not wish the same for India.

[SSridhar]

If every country's courts begin to interpret Vienna Conventions, then there will only be chaos. It would be as good as not having a convention at all. That's why whenever a country feels a diplomat has behaved inappropriately, rightly or wrongly, it deals the issue with the sending country directly and requests it to withdraw the person (if the two countries are friendly enough) or issues a persona non grata, which the other country would only be expected to reciprocate in kind. A diplomat, an that too of a purportedly friendly country, is not expected to be treated barbarically like this. Had we taken strong reciprocal retaliatory measures much earlier, (George Fernandes' time), there is a possibility that we would not have seen so much downturn in relationship. Whatever one can fudge, this is a serious setback to relationship. The warmth, that was building up in spite of the mischiefs of US, is gone Reciprocity is an important aspect of diplomacy both at a personal and national level. What has the US gained through the maid who was not ill-treated or kept as a slave in the very first place ?

[Yayavar]

^^Can we stop generalizations? There are likely more RNIs than NRIs or PIOs; and a large set of NRIs/PIOs have the best interests of India at heart. They do a lot more than the unfortunately large incubus of the corrupt that inhabit the mother country pulling down the honest and good-hearted.

Hmmmm must be an extremely secretive community that nobody knows or hears about especially at the time of need. Their adopted country is also engaged in pulling down honest and good hearted people as part of their policy so it is not only their mother country which is inhabited by such set of people. Seeing the response in Devyani episode only, I very much doubt that "There are likely more RNIs than NRIs or PIOs; and a large set of NRIs/PIOs have the best interests of India at heart" and I won't even go into the lahori roots of this "logic". Even GoI has started to see this fact.

Sagar G : all you are seeing is some folks who were in the wrong and are tarring all PIOs. Do you not see a lot of Indian citizens indulging in corruption and anti-India behaviour? - would you call all Indians anti-India then? So do reconsider your logic and tarring of all with the same brush. If you dont see that then continue, I'll ignore.

[Sagar G]

Sagar G : all you are seeing is some folks who were in the wrong and are tarring all PIOs. Do you not see a lot of Indian citizens indulging in corruption and anti-India behaviour? - would you call all Indians anti-India then? So do reconsider your logic and tarring of all with the same brush. If you dont see that then continue, I'll ignore.

I am seeing a lot of supposedly Indian people in US who are doing absolutely nothing regarding serving the interests of India and why does such set of people need to hide behind equally useless people inhibiting India to hide their own dhimminess ??? I am not tarring everybody with the same brush but merely interpreting what another poster posted. If you don't see that then please discontinue.

[chaanakya]

Prabhu Dayal reveals how Indian envoys in the US fall can victim to maids pursuing American dreams - Daily Mail

Was the above posted here ? Please read it.

yes, it was posted by siavb on 23rd Dec.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... l#p1563704

[A_Gupta]

A diplomat, an that too of a purportedly friendly country, is not expected to be treated barbarically like this.

Had the US Supreme Court not made legal in 2012 strip/body searches without justification, we likely would not be having this conversation. DK would have been arrested, released on bail, there would be MEA/IFS anger, but no major newspaper headlines; and likely we would not have heard about it.

Suppose we put the strip/body search aside (as something Preet Bharara, etc., overlooked in their calculations), and ask what else does this episode show about India-US relations?

1. Protocol was not followed:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1565809

As the diplomat was working as acting consul general, the US ought to have notified India about her arrest under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. The MEA joint secretary who handles the US, Vikram Doraiswamy, was in that country on the day Khobragade was arrested, but he wasn't informed about it.

2. Removal of Richard family from India:
a. US treats Indian judicial processes with disrespect - India is not protecting "whistleblower" Richard, rather is legally persecuting him.

3. Post-arrest:
a. US completely failed to understand Indian sensitivities about strip searches (a simple apology from the US attorney's office instead of the excuse that strip search is routine would have defused a lot of this.)
b. US completely failed to own up to breach of protocol.
c. On the PR side, the US tried to convert a wage dispute into a case of human trafficking.
d. US shows no urgency in trying to patch things up with India.

I'm sure you can add to the list.

At a minimum, it shows that there is very little real working relationship between the Indian diplomats and their American counterparts. There is definitely a lack of trust. There is a hesitation/inability to bring up issues. (e.g., in addition to the formal letter from the US Dept of State to the MEA about the allegations about DK, why not a face-to-face or phone call to talk things over? for each side to state their positions without committing it to paper? etc. Apart from the formal Indian reply to the US Dept of State, why not a face-to-face or phone call, to explain why Indians see the US minimum wage requirement as legalistic and not applicable with housing, medical, travel, perks, etc. being provided?)

If Indian domestic help arrangements are a real irritant to the US, why do they have to raise the issue via an arrest, instead of first talking to the Indian side?

[g.sarkar]

. What has the US gained through the maid who was not ill-treated or kept as a slave in the very first place ?

Sridharji,
This is a question that we should not ask and need not ask. For example, if China had not attacked India and continued to talk, it is quite possible that they would have got more out of Nehru than they got out of India after the short war. At least, the war made India arm itself and China had to match India's arming at a time they were poor. But they chose the path that they did and we could not control that. Similarly, the US has chosen a path that in its wisdom it feels is right for its interests. It is no use saying it is due to mistakes of low ranking officers who had not inkling of broader ramifications or due to political ambitions of a federal attorney. Or it was due to a message that the US wanted to send, and unwanted things happened, and it was all a big mistake. We can not control US actions. What we can do, is control our own actions. From the scenario it is quite clear that this was not a rogue action from Preet Bharara. He does not have the power to evacuate Indian citizens from India with out the collusion of other powerful people that want to bring down "uppity" India a notch or two. Now, we can take the slap and turn the cheek for the promise of bounties that the US has in store for us. Under MMS we have been doing just that. Pakistan and the drone attacks that it faces every day is what awaits us in the end of that road should we opt to take it. The other possibility is the case of Chinese Embassy (in Belgrade) bombing. China successfully protested and defended its interests. In my opinion that is the path that we should take. As the Chinese say, the US put a knot in the relationship, it is now up to them to remove it.
Gautam

[Sagar G]

Tulsi Gabbard is an asset and should be engaged with, who are the other people who have sided with India in this case ???

I have been thinking about this for sometime now that we should start putting people in a "Friends" list and identify/engage such people, give them some special privileges like visa on arrival and other goodies till they loyally defend India and her interests. This might go a long way in providing us more leverage in International arena.

The persona non grata list should be renamed as "Enemies" and exactly opposite behaviour of friends should be metted out to them. I guess a lot of PIO's/NRI's will top that list.

[Yagnasri]

Withdraw PIO cards immediately to all who has khan passports. There is no need for such privileges for people who took foreign citizenship. No benefit is there for us in this facility. Then why give it?

[Sagar G]

Withdraw PIO cards of those who also fall in the MUTU category and put them in the enemies list. PIO's serving Indian interests are an asset and should be cultivated. This should be hammered into them that if they fail to serve/defend Indian interests for once then off goes their card/privilege.

[SSridhar]

. What has the US gained through the maid who was not ill-treated or kept as a slave in the very first place ?

This is a question that we should not ask and need not ask. . . . powerful people that want to bring down "uppity" India a notch or two.

Gautam, the idea is to understand what prompted the US action against India. For all Indians who were unaware of the behind-the-scene tensions between India and China, the 1962 aggression by PRC came as a shock. Notwithstanding the Prabhu Dayal or Neena Malhotra cases, there was no apparent reason that the India-US relationship could nose-dive like this. As I repeat myself, there can be no doubt that this is a huge setback to India-US relationship whatever other twist one wants to give. We are yet to get a grip on the reason for the abrupt turn of events. As you say, this is certainly not a rogue action. That is unambiguously clear. What is the provocation ?

[chaanakya]

While , seemingly , all major actors in this episode seems to be Amirkhan of Indian origin but they can not move the system much by themselves esp when much larger relationship issues are at stake. They would have been cleared at highest level. Hence their role would be facilitative and compliance. Indians don't expect them to talk against their bosses just because they are originally Indian or born in India or having long lost root with India. Neither should we expect any PIO/OCI or NRI to support India in this issue. Please understand that except NRIs , the term PIO and OCI has come up in response to their demands to some sort of recognition from their erstwhile motherland. Earlier there was no such categories. This has entitled them hassle-free travel to India and interact with Indians without the considerations imposed upon Blue Blooded AmirKhans. We expect that this would ensure that bond grows stronger only without compromising their loyalty to their adopted land.

PIOs and OCIs are not to worry that we would be asking our pound of flesh. No sir, we don't have high expectations as we know the quintessential Indian behaviour. NRIs wouldd be certainly asked as they are still resident and citizen of India but within the limits that they can exercise. Nobody is expected to directly intervene in the matter but we don't expect or from PIOs and OCIs to give us hankering lecture on morality.

Neither are we castigating Bharara for going after Indo-Amerikhan who break the laws of that Land. That is his job. What we expect is for him to understand that this is a sensitive issue and he would be in a position to understand Indian sensibilities as apposed to pure blooded AmirKhan or White Amirkhans. He is expected to see all facts of the case and if any Indian official is not welcome, he should have got her declared PNG. He has failed in performance of his duty even towards his adopted land. He could do nothing about Russians and other diplomats. He went out of the way , in this particular case, to ex-filtrate the family as if Indian Judicial system is trash. Despite VCCR on treatment of arrested Consuls he allowed USMS to go through the so called SOP and allow custodial rape and humiliate a women. They say if you want to insult your enemy you insult their women. Sir, he has behaved worst then our worst enemy. That gives rise to suspicion that what if all others similarly placed are under the obligation to prove their loyalty for advancing their career on the shoulders of insult heaped to Indians , whether NRIS/OCIs.PIOs or an Official representative of India. That is why the terms like MuTu might explain this behaviour succinctly.


Please understand that DK matter is partially creation of our own ineptness, servitude and VIP culture, but that we will deal with it internally or may not deal with it at all as soon as current matter subsides. We will reap the consequences of our actions. Dk matter will certainly get resolved one way or the other. The larger casualty could be goodwill. Vast majority of Indians might not even come in contact with Amirkhans and they may not be fully aware of the issues or may not care less, But those , with whom Amirkhans come in contact , would have to understand the nature of relations or get insulted time and again. If we can't get rid of the perception of them as White Demigod we can't achieve respect in the comity of Nations. It is our burden to bear sir and we don't expect PIOs/OCIs to chip in. Thank You but no Thank you.

[Gus]

We should also stop giving visas to Indians who become traitors to India and take enemy country citizenship.

[chaanakya]

SagarG ji I think you are very angry. Anger clouds perception and sometimes I am also guilty of that. But let us not take it to extreme. This issue will not need their support to get resolved.

[vishvak]

Since the USA Senate never ratified vccr, the uniform application of laws is now become someone else's problem only.
(1) Selective ratification
(2) Local interpretation
Then, and only then, comes question of uniform laws! Now everyone has to hire a lawyer and pursue legalities, even after understanding international conventions because USA chose to interpret its own way only and and only so much of so much of the whole is ratified!

So now international community has to make each part exhaustive, cause what is meaning of ratification in so and so parts?

USA, the most advanced and most powerful should be setting standard by following best international norms, no? Instead it is about local interpretation of parts and only then uniform application! It reads like how Vatican or Saudis 'interpret' universal declaration of human rights - after universal and declared - and then claim that religious interpretation are uniform and fair only. Now it is up to others to deal with twists and turns.

=======================================================================
People dragging NRIs/PIOs here need to first state the role of, if any, in selective ratifications and local interpretation of Vienna deal, before blabbering about who is to be blamed how much for what. Please note that India has extended enough convenience and facilities already for USA diplomats so why should anyone be feeling awkward about Indian connections.

>>>>>>>>>
Edit: Vienna deal, ie PIOs/NRIs part in selective ratification of Vienna deal by USA.

[SSridhar]

At a minimum, it shows that there is very little real working relationship between the Indian diplomats and their American counterparts. There is definitely a lack of trust. There is a hesitation/inability to bring up issues. (e.g., in addition to the formal letter from the US Dept of State to the MEA about the allegations about DK, why not a face-to-face or phone call to talk things over? for each side to state their positions without committing it to paper? etc.

You are raising very pertinent questions. This issue demonstrates a total lack of personal warmth and proximity in relationship between the two sides. These issues could have been resolved over a lunch or a dinner had the personal equation been good, something that diplomats are expected to have with 'friendly' countries. Or at least, we could have got an inkling of the seriousness of the issue and taken some action to de-escalate the matter. The US gave a matter-of-fact information regarding the inquiry into SR issue but chose to ignore all communication from the Indian embassy including the court's arrest warrant against SR. This shows the deliberateness of action whose trajectory had been pre-determined within the State Deptt. It would be also interesting to see if Indian diplomats sought face-to-face meeting but were rebuffed or ignored.

Apart from the formal Indian reply to the US Dept of State, why not a face-to-face or phone call, to explain why Indians see the US minimum wage requirement as legalistic and not applicable with housing, medical, travel, perks, etc. being provided?)

The US had discounted these benefits as deductible from salary. That looks very unfair too, but that's what they did.

If Indian domestic help arrangements are a real irritant to the US, why do they have to raise the issue via an arrest, instead of first talking to the Indian side?

Exactly. That is what friendly countries do. The US could have simply asked India to withdraw DK, in the worst case.

[chaanakya]

We should also stop giving visas to Indians who become traitors to India and take enemy country citizenship.

Those who take citizenship of other country do not become traitors automatically. They have done proud and sometimes like us they are confused as well. However there are many wannabes among us as well and we should deal with them first. What to make of Nirupama rao during whose period this issue was simmering. She is supposed to have some review committee on very same issue as faced by Mr Dayal and Ms Neena earlier. Instead of getting the report and implementing it or sorting out the DK issue during her Ambyship she was busy securing American sinecure for her in some Brown Uni. We are at fault more than any NRI/PIO or OCI for having failed to read the situation and resolve the issue. That is the difference between real diplomat and pseudo diplomat. Anyway, all diplomats are expected to behave notwithstanding our views on the issue. If you pull punches you can go thus far and no further.

[chaanakya]

Since the USA Senate never ratified vccr, the uniform application of laws is now become someone else's problem only.

If VCCR is not ratified by US the their diplomats are also open to no immunity whatsoever. They can't really throw rulebook at us if we arrest anyone of them, can they? Full application of local laws even when they perform consular functions and expect same for us likewise. Hence this sensible suggestion of Mr Dayal to close Consulates and outsource their functions and transfer diplomatic functions to Missions. Appoint honorary consul for consular function which can not be transferred to Mission or outsourced.

[g.sarkar]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 077308.cms
Devyani Khobragade case on backburner, US poised to irretrievably lose unilateral privileges
"WASHINGTON: In the annals of diplomatic exchanges across the world, it has long been understood that the United States will get more consular and protocol privileges than it will give to other countries. After all, the argument went, the US has the world's largest diplomatic corps, does more outreach, and its personnel face greater danger abroad than those from any other country. So if Americans demand greater security, easier access, more privileges in New Delhi or Islamabad or Kabul than it would give to diplomatic counterparts from these countries in Washington or New York, it was accepted without question — because it was reasoned that US diplomats faced more dangers and difficulties abroad than foreign diplomats did in the United States. Someone in the US diplomatic service didn't apparently get this memo, and didn't quite understand and appreciate this aspect of foreign policy engagement. Their "foolish" overreach and "law and order" approach in the case of Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat who is in the dock in New York for allegedly stiffing her housekeeper, will result in a drastic and "unfortunate" reassessment of US privileges that the American diplomatic corps will find unpleasant, going by conversations with Indian diplomats and officials who have stood up in anger at what they see as a vindictive singling out of their colleague in New York. The officials, all of who spoke only on background, refuted the US suggestion that they were being vengeful towards the US diplomatic corps and endangering the US embassy by explaining the context behind the removal of traffic barriers around the US embassy in New Delhi, ostensibly in retaliation for the treatment meted out their colleague in New York. The barriers, they said, had been installed several years back in the teeth of opposition from several other embassies nearby (notably the French and Swedish) which complained it constrained them. They were done as a special consideration for the Americans, despite the fact that the US side had turned down similar reciprocal requests from the Indian side. A decision to remove the barriers was taken several weeks back when the US side removed a diplomatic parking lane in front of the Indian embassy in Washington DC (that also served as security perimeter) and turned it into public parking........"
Gautam

[SSridhar]

This should be hammered into them that if they fail to serve/defend Indian interests for once then off goes their card/privilege.

Sagar, those who take up citizenship of another country take an oath to be loyal to that country. So, we cannot blame them for their actions. India cannot have any grudges against them. In fact, India feels proud that PIOs reach high positions in other countries. Why should India expect favours from them ? That's even an insult to the billion plus people of this proud nation. However, we have also seen a keenness on the part of some of these people to demonstrate their loyalty in ways that are clearly unaaceptable.

[SSridhar]

USA has signed several treaties that remain un-ratified by the Congress. Yet, it abides by them. It cannot choose to remind others that the treaty is unratified only when it encounters inconvenient situations. Again, diplomacy is for a large part reciprocal even between hugely unequal countries.

[vishvak]

Why are NRIs/PIOs dragged here? NRIs and PIOs can state that diplomats of USA have accessed privileges for decades. It is not PIOs/NRIs who have a role in part-ratification and local interpretations of international conventions and twists and turns.

It seems people don't understand meaning of accepting treaties in parts, when the fact is these parts may be related. Eventually because of interconnections, anyone can be assumed to be violating a law "indirectly" or violating local interpretation 'indirectly' - instead of diplomatic rules as convenience in fair manner and good faith. It is more like legal harassment in local new York style!

[Yayavar]

For all those looking to blame people of Indian origin here is something relevant from Swapan Dasgupta's in dailyPioneer -
http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... -sour.html

In the past decade, US influence on critical areas of Indian life has grown exponentially, to the point where it appears distinctly unhealthy. From key bureaucrats who are only too keen to oblige American interests to senior generals who feel they can accept US honours without bothering to seek permission, the US today occupies a role in India that is akin to the hold of the Soviet Union in the India of the 1970s. Even institutions such as the media and academia are not spared from this over-weaning influence. And ‘strategic thinking’, such as it exists in India, has been completely mortgaged to US-based think-tanks. The ripple-effects of this can be discerned in our foreign policy.

A possible reason why India has been taken for granted by the US stems from a belief that because India’s elite has too much of an interest in the US, it will not pursue national interests beyond a point. I fear the American calculations are right. The US has selectively obliged our decision-makers — through visas, green cards and scholarships to sons and daughters — to such an extent that it feels it can kick a diplomat or two or make them fall guys in a larger game.

So much for frothing at PIOs. Simple matter onlee!!

Anyway back to matter at hand I suppose rather than all the pop-psychology of all PIOs.

[Sagar G]

SagarG ji I think you are very angry. Anger clouds perception and sometimes I am also guilty of that. But let us not take it to extreme. This issue will not need their support to get resolved.

I am angry but my anger isn't clouding my perception or thinking. I have said before that I have been playing with that thought for quite some time and I can see many merits with it.

Why shall India waste her resources on giving special privileges to people who have at the first place denounced their Indian citizenship and willfully taken up the task to serve another country and her interests ???

Why shall India waste her resources on giving special privileges to people who don't defend or serve Indian interests 24x7 ???

Why shall India waste her resources on giving special privileges to people who are ever willing to insult and abuse India at the drop of a hat ???

As I see it India is wasting her resources by engaging and giving privileges to this set of people who in return have nothing to give back. Indian resources are better used by engaging people who defend Indian interests 24x7 and don't hide behind lame excuses so as to save their own skin. This set of freeloaders should be done away with so that we can use our resources better and invest it on people who give us back. These freeloaders are no different from the one in India who support/vote for useless people because of some community/clan connection and also because of supply of daru/cash. When such set of people are looked down and marked as bane for democracy then the same must be done for the people who hurt Indian interests no ??? By choosing to remain silent, giving unsolicited advices, asking India to back off when it isn't her fault, threatening her with consequences for standing up for herself, giving excuses to save their own skin but ever wanting to freeload these people are hurting Indian interests as much as the gori chamri does. These people may be of Indian race but nothing in their action shows that they have India in their hearts and by engaging such people India is wasting her time and resource.

[chaanakya]

In fact I would be more suspect of RR and MSA as they are in position to influence all decision on Indian economy and holding green card and the term MuTu could be more apt for such characters than those residing in Unkil and working under their system.

[Sagar G]

Sagar, those who take up citizenship of another country take an oath to be loyal to that country. So, we cannot blame them for their actions. India cannot have any grudges against them. In fact, India feels proud that PIOs reach high positions in other countries. Why should India expect favours from them ? That's even an insult to the billion plus people of this proud nation. However, we have also seen a keenness on the part of some of these people to demonstrate their loyalty in ways that are clearly unaaceptable.

Exactly SSridhar "taken up loyalty to that country" that's where the crux of the matter lies. When the person is not loyal to India anymore then why waste our time by engaging such people or giving them any privilege ???? Unless and until he/she doesn't display her willingness to serve Indian interests through action why shall we waste our time listening/engaging such people ??? I agree that India must not expect any favour from them and at the same time must not extend any favour to them as well.

In the last portion you contradict yourself by showing that some of their behaviour is unacceptable to you. Why you say so if you believe that "India cannot have any grudges against them" and "Why should India expect favours from them". By stating these you first give an impression that you view them without any emotional bias which is the way to look at the issue but then you say that "some of these people to demonstrate their loyalty in ways that are clearly unaaceptable" you allow your emotions to make judgement for you. I am totally for keeping the emotional bias out of this equation and judging people for what they are depending upon their action hence my stance regarding PIO's/NRI's.

[Sagar G]

chaanakya if your plan to defend MUTU's is to point out a-holes in India then you have already lost the plot. Torn shirt open fly argument.

[SSridhar]

For all those looking to blame people of Indian origin here is something relevant
from Swapan Dasgupta's in dailyPioneer -

A possible reason why India has been taken for granted by the US stems from a belief that because India’s elite has too much of an interest in the US, it will not pursue national interests beyond a point. I fear the American calculations are right. The US has selectively obliged our decision-makers — through visas, green cards and scholarships to sons and daughters — to such an extent that it feels it can kick a diplomat or two or make them fall guys in a larger game.

Why should the US kick an Indian diplomat, even assuming it has bought the loyalty of Indian diplomats, a kind of Buzkashi ? If the US interests is to win over more Indian diplomats to its side, it certainly cannot achieve that through the barbaric treatment meted out to another member of its ilk.

[chaanakya]

chaanakya if your plan to defend MUTU's is to point out a-holes in India then you have already lost the plot. Torn shirt open fly argument.

In fact by discussing MuTu or PIO or NRI or OCI rather than DK issue is like more deflecting the arguments on Diplomatic issues at hand. If one can't stand on one's own why do one expect crutches from others.

[Yayavar]

SSridhar: Yes, that is puzzling and has proved counter productive. In a way it has introduced some correction in the imbalance between the two countries.

[Sagar G]

In fact by discussing MuTu or PIO or NRI or OCI rather than DK issue is like more deflecting the arguments on Diplomatic issues at hand. If one can't stand on one's own why do one expect crutches from others.

Because they are related to this issue that's why see the previous page and take a look yourself what has been discussed in them. I didn't start this discussion but only gave my view in an ongoing one. I want India to stand on it's own and that's exactly why I want her to invest her resources on people who will give good returns across the spectrum.

[SSridhar]

In the last portion you contradict yourself by showing that some of their behaviour is unacceptable to you. Why you say so if you believe that "India cannot have any grudges against them" and "Why should India expect favours from them". By stating these you first give an impression that you view them without any emotional bias which is the way to look at the issue but then you say that "some of these people to demonstrate their loyalty in ways that are clearly unaaceptable" you allow your emotions to make judgement for you. I am totally for keeping the emotional bias out of this equation and judging people for what they are depending upon their action hence my stance regarding PIO's/NRI's.

No, there is no contradiction here. The point I am making is that if these people have to take a decision, in teh interests of their country and which may be in conflict with the interests of India, then India cannot have grudges against them. For example, voting on a UN resolution in which India and the US are on opposite sides. However, my position is that some of these people may, in their over eagerness to demonstrate to their blue-blooded bosses their loyalty to their new citizenry, may go an extra, unnecessary, unwanted mile against their country of origin. That is the behaviour we call as MUTU. And, this is what I suspect has happened in this case. I do not think I am emotional here.

[Sagar G]

No, there is no contradiction here. The point I am making is that if these people have to take a decision, in teh interests of their country and which may be in conflict with the interests of India, then India cannot have grudges against them. For example, voting on a UN resolution in which India and the US are on opposite sides. However, my position is that some of these people may, in their over eagerness to demonstrate to their blue-blooded bosses their loyalty to their new citizenry, may go an extra, unnecessary, unwanted mile against their country of origin. That is the behaviour we call as MUTU. And, this is what I suspect has happened in this case. I do not think I am emotional here.

If India isn't allowed to have grudges on such people then do you agree that India must not engage these people since it's a waste of time/resource with no return ??? Do you also agree that these people aren't Indian anymore and hence can possibly be threat to Indian interests just like other foreign junta ???

[johneeG]

People generally say,"amirkhan looks after its own interests. dhesh should learn the same."

Link to a post questioning this view

[SSridhar]

In a way it has introduced some correction in the imbalance between the two countries.

I also hope that apart from a lesson on diplomatic niceties (or the lack of it that can be expected any moment from the US), it has also taught more serious lessons to India about the reliability of the US as a partner, friend etc. We had forgotten about the whimsical vicissitudes of the US hand of friendship and it was a good lesson. The ramifications of this episode are not going to stop at the level of a DK, they will go all the way up, even in an India that usually easily forgets and forgives.

[chaanakya]

^^The reason we have not signed CISMOA with them.

[RKumar]

I would suggest to go one step ahead and drop all special and one sided privileges to so called first world countries. Other countries will also blame US for their troubles and it is also plain corrective action. Respect is earned, it is not given without a reason.

[chetak]

^^The reason we have not signed CISMOA with them.

They are demanding diplomatic protection for their randy soldiers and marines during R&R in India.