India-US Strategic News and Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2013 23:59

Chaanakya while DK is still in the woods its not right to attack the ruling party..

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Dec 2013 00:21

ramana wrote:Chaanakya while DK is still in the woods its not right to attack the ruling party..

You mean Chanakyaa?? Confusing

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2013 00:33

A ',' after your name would make it clear! Case of the missing oxford comma!

P.J. Crowley writes

3a
Devyani Khobragade: Bureaucratic and diplomatic negligence By PJ Crowley
Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:46 am (PST) .

Devyani Khobragade: Bureaucratic and diplomatic negligence

By PJ Crowley Former US Assistant Secretary of State

http://www.bbc. co.uk/news/ world-us- canada-25440252

The Indian and US negligence has turned a minor legal case into a diplomatic and political test of the countries' relationship

Every crisis theoretically provides an opportunity. But the current
diplomatic rift between the United States and India seems to be a lost
opportunity to avoid a crisis.
Rather than deepening relations, the two countries are deep into a lengthy period of crisis management.
The brouhaha was triggered by the arrest of the Indian deputy consul general in New York, Devyani Khobragade.
Ms Khobragade was accused of lying on an application for her
housekeeper&# 39;s work visa, over-reporting the amount of money the
housekeeper was paid.

This is the third case of alleged mistreatment by Indian diplomats in New York in three years.
The US contends that Ms Khobragade&# 39;s limited diplomatic immunity does not cover private conduct that violates US law.

'Despicable and barbaric'

Political hell has broken loose in India over the manner in which Ms
Khobragade was detained. She was handcuffed after dropping off her child at school, subjected to a strip and body cavity search, then placed in a cell with the general jail population.

Barricades were removed from the front of the US embassy in Delhi, apparently in retaliation

A high-level Indian official characterised the treatment as
"despicable and barbaric" . Secretary of State John Kerry called Indian
National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon to express regret.
New Delhi has retaliated by taking away privileges accorded
US diplomats in India and removing security barriers guarding the
American embassy there.
It has also elevated Ms Khobragade to a position at its
United Nations mission that carries full diplomatic immunity. Whatever
this means for the court case, it clearly indicates the dispute is no
longer just a diplomatic problem but a political one as well.
The strip-search was an unforced error.
The US Marshals Service says it followed "standard arrestee
intake procedures," a cringe-worthy bureaucratic phrase that means it
went by the book.
Ms Khobragade was treated like every other female defendant awaiting a court appearance.

The US could have declared Ms
Khobragade persona non grata, demanded her immediate departure and
refused further work visas for domestic help for Indian diplomats”

But the arrest of a diplomat is
never just another case. If the state department did not know she would
be strip-searched, it should have - and should have demanded special
handling.
In diplomatic circles, any perceived slight is reciprocated.
You step on our toes, expect the same. The political and public fallout
was predictable, particularly in a country like India with a vigorous
and sometimes inventive media.

En route to the courtroom in lower Manhattan, both countries
lost sight of the big picture and the broader interests that should
shape the relationship between the world's oldest and largest
democracies.

Other options

India is a rising power the United States has been cultivating for years.
Frustration over the consulate' s dismal human rights record
is understandable, but a prosecution is necessarily a lengthy process
that is bound to cast a shadow over the relationship even under the best of circumstances. The Italian case of American Amanda Knox comes to
mind.

The state department alerted India about the case in
September, but it's unclear what diplomatic efforts were undertaken to
resolve the underlying issues short of prosecution.
The US could have declared Ms Khobragade persona non grata,
demanded her immediate departure and refused further work visas for
domestic help for Indian diplomats.
But once the United States chose to prosecute, it had not
just to do everything by the book but do everything right, to keep the
case focused on her. That obviously did not happen.
Devyani Khobragade at a fundraiser on 8 December

On the Indian side, it is unclear why the Indian ambassador to
the United States or the country' s foreign ministry failed to clean
house when first alerted by US authorities.
Indian diplomats surely understand that disrespecting US law
and international norms undermine its emergence as a constructive global actor.
India's removal of security barriers is excessive and irresponsible.
Even if the remaining security arrangements are adequate -
India has primary responsibility for embassy security under the Vienna
Convention - New Delhi should understand how sensitive such a move is
given last year's attack on a US diplomatic post in Benghazi, Libya.
Once charges were pending, both sides should have worked
together to ensure the case did not undermine vastly improved, but still occasionally testy, relations between the two countries. That didn't
happen either.

That India and the United States have allowed a minor legal case to
become a major test in US-India relations is bureaucratic and public
diplomacy negligence. After all, tending to the big picture is supposedly what governments and foreign ministries do for a living.

There are still plenty of reasons to be optimistic about
US-India relations. Mutual interests far outweigh differences. But if
this week is any indication, the road ahead will be bumpy.

PJCrowley is a former Assistant Secretary of
State and now a professor of practice and fellow at The George
Washington University's Institute of Public Diplomacy and Global
Communication.

Maybe the whole relationship is based on lies and hence could not be sustained even by Gungadins in MEA who gave non-reciprocal privileges to US diplomats for unknown favors or just plain Gungadinness.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 30 Dec 2013 00:41

Couple of thoughts on the NRI/PIO/OCI/AID sentiments -

1. In a purely legalistic sense, India does not allow dual citizenship, unlike Israel or the European countries. While this satisfies nationalist sentiment within India, it also means that the diaspora does not have abiding connections to India once they choose to participate in the political process in the host country.

2. Couple the lack of citizenship with the fact that a significant minority of the diaspora are political exiles from India. They wouldn't feel moved to support what appears to be a political matter, since India hasn't had a consistent policy over such indignities -

Sikh rights group to hold rally supporting Sangeeta Richard

saip · Post by **saip** » 30 Dec 2013 01:10

Even US allows dual citizenship in a way, in that it does not require you to give up your previous citizenship when acquiring US citizenship. But if you acquire another country's citizenship after becoming US citizen then you lose US citizenship. Indian Citizenship act 1956 takes away your citizenship once you accept another country's citizenship.

saip · Post by **saip** » 30 Dec 2013 01:12

chaanakya wrote:
ramana wrote:Chaanakya while DK is still in the woods its not right to attack the ruling party..
You mean Chanakyaa?? Confusing

I too am confused. Only now I notice there are two with similar names, one an oldie and another a newbee

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2013 02:03

chaanakya wrote:
ramana wrote:Chanakyaa while DK is still in the woods its not right to attack the ruling party..
You mean Chanakyaa?? Confusing

I was referring to the member in red.

Sorry for the mistake.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2013 02:03

An idea of extent of human trafficking in various forms in US:

http://www.polarisproject.org/state-map ... QgodblMAhA

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2013 02:11

Hindustan Times details what the commercial activities the US embassy in Delhi is carrying out. Looks like East India Company bhadur redux with all that liquor being consumed duty free.

I used to have a paper from Gastronomy journal on the liquor consumption by EIC officials by going over the import/ship manifest and death notifications and cemeteries!

India questions commercial activities in US embassy

New Delhi has questioned “commercial activities” being carried out in the US embassy which could lead to a freeze on duty-free imports, as the standoff between the two countries over the arrest of an Indian diplomat in New York continues.

Upset over the ill-treatment of Devyani Khobragade who was arrested and later released on bail on charges of visa fraud and underpaying her domestic help, New Delhi feels that duty-free import facilities are being misused by “non-diplomatic personnel”, including private firms and friends of the US embassy.

The US extended no such privileges to another country, it told Washington, conveying the decision to move against “non-reciprocal” concessions.

Those who avail the American community support association (ACSA) facilities are allowed a bottle of hard liquor, two of wine and 12 cans of beer a week at a much lower price than the market rate as these are duty free.

The ACSA members also get access to Out of India restaurant, Delhi Diner Snacks bar, the Great Escape bar, Windward Café Poolside Bar and a cafeteria on payable basis. They also enjoy free use of a gymnasium, swimming pool, bowling alley and a tennis court.

India also pointed to certain queries in the ACSA membership form. One of the questions is about the nature of the non-diplomatic duty of the applicant, who is also asked to submit letter from the company certifying employment and duration of stay.

Delhi has also cited special affiliate membership as another instance of misuse of privileges. The US embassy spokesperson didn’t reply to HT email seeking its response.

Ek dum bewada log hain!
No wonder they dont want to answer queries.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 30 Dec 2013 02:19

saip wrote: But if you acquire another country's citizenship after becoming US citizen then you lose US citizenship.

This is not correct. See here - http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship ... p_778.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2013 02:49

.... . But none of these instances drew a response like the one we saw over Ms. Khobragade.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/pr ... epage=true
Pride and parampara in Manhattan
P. Sainath

Why? Because the charges levelled against her might well apply to a very large number of our embassy and consular staff? And not just in New York? Imagine the embarrassment ahead if this prosecution were to extend to the rest of the fraternity. After all, the domestic help who have been ripped off are also Indian citizens. What if some group clubbed together a raft of such cases and brought something like a class-action suit in American courts? It would be quite logical. And it could cost the government of India millions of dollars.

Indian domestic workers are often brought into the U.S. by their employers as ‘family members.’ On arrival, some have their passports confiscated by their ‘family.’ That ensures they cannot run and cannot hide.

Under-payment is another story. This is the most dreary, routine practice within India. And not just with domestic workers. There are several private colleges in the country, for instance, which employ lecturers ostensibly at UGC scales.

People getting ripped off by manpower export sharks is also seen as ‘normal.’

All that the government of India is asking for in the Khobragade matter is a dropping of charges. The Americans want us to change our very laws

It is possible that there’s much going on in the background we don’t know about. Yet, even as Ms. Khobragade’s problems in the U.S. are far from over, others confront her in India. She is named in the Commission report on the Adarsh scam. She figures in it as one among several ineligible persons who got a flat in the Adarsh building.

With the U.S. rejecting the demand to drop charges against Ms. Khobragade, things will get tricky. This is indeed an issue of principles, not of the individual Ms. Khobragade. But any coming face-off, if one occurs at all, won’t be on any of the issues we need to confront the U.S. on. Merely on our fundamental right to rip off our servants and exploit labour.

ps: thanks ramana for corrections.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Dec 2013 03:24

Thats by P Sainath. Please post author's name also when posting op-eds.

Sort of caveat emptor!

BTW he is a privileged grandson of a earlier President of India!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2013 03:44

reviewed his wikipedia profile. impressive honors and awards.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 30 Dec 2013 04:08

ramana wrote:Hindustan Times details what the commercial activities the US embassy in Delhi is carrying out. Looks like East India Company bhadur redux with all that liquor being consumed duty free.

Ek dum bewada log hain!
No wonder they dont want to answer queries.

This what I meant when I said earlier that there is enough dirt of the US Embassy. But it will get even more interesting when the 'commercialism' is fully exposed.

BTW. I love the 'Out of India' name for the bar. Shows you what these guys really think of their posting. Only the pith helmets are missing.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2013 04:32

Buying tickets by the US diplomat to 'evacuate' for PR & Children is a violation of Indian tax laws. New charge by India. GoI is beginning to identify the diplomat who did that. ToI link.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Dec 2013 05:08

BTW. I love the 'Out of India' name for the bar. Shows you what these guys really think of their posting. Only the pith helmets are missing.

Worse is that they know they can get away with it.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 30 Dec 2013 05:43

sanjaykumar wrote:BTW. I love the 'Out of India' name for the bar. Shows you what these guys really think of their posting. Only the pith helmets are missing.

Worse is that they know they can get away with it.

It's a play on the movie and the memoir written by Isak Dinesen, Out of Africa. Isak who was actually baroness Karen Blixen who loved Africa. Excerpts of passages from the book are (were) in every high school english literaure text as study in descriptive writing, both geography, people and cultural millieu. Kinda strange that a Danish writer winds up teaching American teenagers from across the ocean, huh?

I know that I can't convince the jingos here otherwise but what the heck, I'll give it a shot and hope the splatter isn't too bad.

And it's still my opinion that the charges against the diplo won't hold up. No way. The charges are really shaky. No jury will buy it.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Dec 2013 05:54

I agree that it is a play on Out of Africa. But like all the best use of language (including some of my posts here

), it can be read in two, contradictory, ways. Anyways, it is a mark of a civilised people that they can tolerate such.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Dec 2013 06:15

vera_k wrote:Couple of thoughts on the NRI/PIO/OCI/AID sentiments -

1. In a purely legalistic sense, India does not allow dual citizenship, unlike Israel or the European countries. While this satisfies nationalist sentiment within India, it also means that the diaspora does not have abiding connections to India once they choose to participate in the political process in the host country.

2. Couple the lack of citizenship with the fact that a significant minority of the diaspora are political exiles from India. They wouldn't feel moved to support what appears to be a political matter, since India hasn't had a consistent policy over such indignities -

Sikh rights group to hold rally supporting Sangeeta Richard

The guys in 2 are just India haters. They needed some reason, any reason and they come up with new reasons every now and then.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Dec 2013 06:22

ramana wrote:Thats by P Sainath. Please post author's name also when posting op-eds.

Sort of caveat emptor!

BTW he is a privileged grandson of a earlier President of India!

And all that privilege makes him pontificate on every issue under the sun, in which he mixes all sorts of leftist tropes on India, and looks through those goggles on every issue.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 30 Dec 2013 06:40

Since ramanaji has already posted the lurkers note,here goes

The vast majority of Indians who came to US have strong family relationships in India.Also,they did not flee political repression/religious,ethnic bigotry at home.Most went to US looking for better jobs and higher education.

The US establishment would be 'suspicious' of Indians who are ethnically,religiously different from white America having strong links with home .And India is never going to be be a colony like Philippines or Brazil.

Nisha Biswal is a SDRE.What better way to make her establish her 'Aunt Jane' credentials than a hatchet job on DK.That would be a rite of passage - a test to prove her loyalty by involving her in humiliating her SDRE ancestral land.

PS:Preet,Nikki,Bobby are Punjabis with sikh heritage.Acharyaji noted long back that Anglo-Saxons think of Punjabis(Hindu,Sikh,Pakjabi) as one people.Nisha Desai Biswal is Gujrati by birth and married to an Odiya.She has to prove the Anglo-Saxon servility test to serve in SD.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Dec 2013 06:49

Plus, there will always be different types of folks - NRI/PIO/AID etc apart.

1. Civilizer: Person who returns with power & privilege, is fawned upon & attempts to reciprocate that by civilizing the natives
2. Wall climber: Who will use each & every tool in their toolbox to advance, but will at the end of the day, look towards succeeding in existing power structure
3. Useful Bridger: Useful person to reach out to people of same national/ethnic/communal identity. But always under pressure to prove themselves back to home base
4. Responsible ally: This is a person who for various reasons is simply not coerced or bothered by existing structure and thinks he/she can change it to build ties on mutual respect and benefit.

I would submit group 4 - which is what people on this board want - is going to be a very rare breed.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Dec 2013 06:59

The guys in 2 are just India haters. They needed some reason, any reason and they come up with new reasons every now and then.

There must be a taxi driver/gurdwara election coming up.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2013 07:02

TSJ, it is not the question of whether the case will pass the scrutiny of a judge or a jury. If indeed this issue goes to the court, it would already be a huge setback to bilateral relations. This should not have happened in the first place at all and the way the diplomat (eventhough the US State Deptt makes a hue and cry about the distinction between a consul and a diplomat) has been treated, whatever may be the unconvincing and unacceptable argument of 'intake procedure' is, makes it far worse. The continuing intransigence by the US to accept its mistake and offer suitable amends makes it far, far worse. The GotUS excels in making enemies out of everyone.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2013 07:26

pandyan wrote:IMHO, the group that will be feeling very uneasy and jittery is the business community. Ultimately, it is the large MNCs that will dictate the foreign policy.

pandyan, I hope that Indian business houses do not put pressure on GoI to 'accept' American PoV, as it happened last time with Narayana Murthy leading the pack.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 30 Dec 2013 08:14

The low life John Creepy,former US Asst Secy of State,has chosen pee pee cee to convey his BS.That itself is a message.

The Creepy has not referred to evacuation of Richard woman at all but has this pontification

India has primary responsibility for embassy security under the Vienna
Convention - New Delhi should understand how sensitive such a move is
given last year's attack on a US diplomatic post in Benghazi, Libya.

Does this mentally challenged idiot not know that New Delhi is not Benghazi or it is standard anal-ysis typical of Dupleecity crooks.Or is it something more sinister,the crooks think that jihadis have such capabilities in heart of Indias capital.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Dec 2013 08:18

But with mafia in power can we do somethings further now is the question. The IFS people can do only so far and ultimately it falls on the politicos. The fear of modi may compell them

saip · Post by **saip** » 30 Dec 2013 08:18

India can say:

US has primary responsibility for embassy security under the Vienna
Convention - Washington should understand how sensitive such a move is
given last year's attack failed attack in Times Square. What is there to prevent it succeeding in DC against a foreign embassy like India's?"

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 30 Dec 2013 08:24

The better response to this Crowley dude would be that US should understand that giving military aid to state sponsor of terror like TSP is a very sensitive issue in India.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Dec 2013 08:51

Those who avail the American community support association (ACSA) facilities are allowed a bottle of hard liquor, two of wine and 12 cans of beer a week at a much lower price than the market rate as these are duty free.

There are 16 to 20 drinks in a 750 cc bottle, 5 drinks per bottle of wine and then the beer. So our conscientious diplomat consumes about 42 drinks per week. About 6 a day. And not all staff would drink their own entitlements. Also there are bars on site and also in town.

I think I am beginning to see the problem.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2013 09:16

India has faced a lot more terror strikes than the US. Indian embassies have been targetted abroad. Almost all these attacks took place because of the US encouragement to, arms supply to and training support to Pakistan. The US was aware of its double agent David Coleman Headly's liaisons with the LeT against India and yet chose not to arrest him, or warn India or even allow unhindered questioning of him by Indian law enforcement agencies leave alone extraditing him to face Indian Courts of Law for his role in the carnage. The US is tying itself up in more and more knots. It definitely makes one wonder why was SR that much important as to even jeopardize a state-to-state relationship. In all previous cases where such incidents led to so much bitterness, it was invariably a spy involved.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2013 09:19

sanjaykumar wrote: I think I am beginning to see the problem.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Dec 2013 10:01

Diplomatic row: US launches ‘inter-agency review’ in Khobragade case
http://www.niticentral.com/2013/12/30/k ... 73887.html

The US departments involved in the review include the National Security Council of the White House, the State Department and the Justice Department.
“An inter-agency review is going on right now to look into the lapses that happened in the case,” sources told reporters.In a tacit acknowledgement of the fact that there was a “judgemental error” in handling this case, sources said the inter-agency team led by the State Department is “working 24X7″ to get it resolved as quickly as possible.
Now that the matter has landed up in the judiciary, a lot depends on the judges too – for which the Department of Justice and the Southern District of New York is being actively engaged.It is believed that the Department of Defense has expressed its displeasure over the manner in which the entire issue was handled.At a time, when the Pentagon is busy reviewing its policy towards Asia Pacific region wherein India fits as a major player in its scheme of things and is eyeing to have a large pie in the odernisation programme of the Indian armed forces, the last thing it would like to see is any strain in its ties with New Delhi, officials said.The strong Indian reaction came as a “shock and disbelief” here, especially to those who have anything to do with the country’s foreign policy, as they had never expected such a strong retaliatory measure from New Delhi. (Last Joke of The Year)

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 30 Dec 2013 10:59

Indian diplomats surely understand that disrespecting US law
and international norms undermine its emergence as a constructive global actor.
India's removal of security barriers is excessive and irresponsible.
Even if the remaining security arrangements are adequate -
India has primary responsibility for embassy security under the Vienna
Convention - New Delhi should understand how sensitive such a move is
given last year's attack on a US diplomatic post in Benghazi, Libya.

Lets do a role reversal. Arresting and strip/cavity searching a diplomat is also excessive and irresponsible for a global actor that undermines international norms.

Removal of concrete barriers from the back of the embassy, which is set back significantly from the street is not that big of a deal, especially given that there are security forces still stationed around the embassy and India is still committed to its responsibility for embassy security. Shouldn't the same sensitivity and understanding been shown to an Indian diplomat (also happens to be a female), given that India masses were horrified with a recent prominent rape in the New Delhi, India that led to huge protests and overhauling of laws?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2013 11:09

SSridhar wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote: I think I am beginning to see the problem.

you mean different solutions - from fl to imfl?

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 30 Dec 2013 11:10

Jhujar wrote:Diplomatic row: US launches ‘inter-agency review’ in Khobragade case
http://www.niticentral.com/2013/12/30/k ... 73887.html

I'm not holding my breath.
Who will dare attest a report that puts down one (or more) wing of the USG just to rekindle relations with a not-so-incorrigible foreign partner? Forget sign-schmign that report, I really would like to be a fly on the wall in this inter-departmental meeting.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Dec 2013 11:19

g.sarkar wrote: . The objective: To have a cowering India in the US orbit as a vassal and fight American wars in Asia to the last Indian. ... India is to become the next Pakistan. Our generals will wear US medals and speak US English. The will have millions of dollars in US accounts and stage US approved coups. Their children will study in US colleges and be totally cut off from the Indian population. The same goes for the Indian political class. That is the goal.

Very well put and quite depressing to think that there is even a remote chance of this coming true.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Dec 2013 11:24

^this would be worse than under-paid bonded servants.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Dec 2013 11:47

RCase wrote:Lets do a role reversal. Arresting and strip/cavity searching a diplomat is also excessive and irresponsible . . . .

No, no. That has always been explained away as SOP in the US ad that is not a big deal as any American could be subjected to that after the Supreme Court allowed that. So, we SDREs cannot question this barbaric practice. Haven't you seen those Thai ladies who shoot balloons from darts in their private parts ? An Indian diplomat could be an expert in such things and must therefore be searched thoroughly, lest she attacks an American police officer or another inmate in the cell. SOP only. Don't get into the area of strip/cavity search. It has already been settled.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Dec 2013 11:49

PJCrowley rings a bell. Looks like PJ stands for "Poor joke"