India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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A_Gupta
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

matrimc wrote:
g.sarkar wrote: . The objective: To have a cowering India in the US orbit as a vassal and fight American wars in Asia to the last Indian. ... India is to become the next Pakistan. Our generals will wear US medals and speak US English. The will have millions of dollars in US accounts and stage US approved coups. Their children will study in US colleges and be totally cut off from the Indian population. The same goes for the Indian political class. That is the goal.
Very well put and quite depressing to think that there is even a remote chance of this coming true.
How readily we slide down slippery slopes!

Underlying these fears is the mental model that only a small group of relatively powerless people understands these problems and they cannot stem the tide, but only stand helplessly, wringing their hands. And behind that is the mental model that most Indians will necessarily make wrong choices. This way, any phantom fear is justifiable.

Good sense is in short supply, I admit, because thinking is allegedly conducive of producing headaches. But I suggest, take one's worst fears (and one's brightest hopes) and divide their intensity by two. Otherwise the lack of steadiness can itself can become a self-fulfilling prophecy inducing future disorders.
Suraj
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Suraj »

India has primary responsibility for embassy security under the Vienna
Convention - New Delhi should understand how sensitive such a move is
given last year's attack on a US diplomatic post in Benghazi, Libya.
Two things:
* The security that existed previously was in excess of our Vienna Convention obligations. They just went back to the baseline everyone else has.
* The Americans already demonstrated that Vienna Convention articles are negotiable and can be superceded by domestic law. Reciprocity means we would do the same.
Altair
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Altair »

The only CT that even remotely comes close to an acceptable theory is that DK is a deep cover and she was working against American interests. Now to warrant the reaction Indian govt demonstrated to the whole fiasco, she must be representing some very high financial interests for India in US in her capacity as Dy.Consul General. I narrowed down to
1. Iranian Oil
2. Defense contracts
Aditya_V
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I think we Indians see Americans as a Nation, while they see themselves as an Empire. Hence, their behaviour is like that.
chetak
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

Diplomat arrest row: Parking versus barriers, high-security lows




India had first considered removing barriers from outside the US embassy in Delhi earlier this year in retaliation for a security risk created for its embassy in Washington DC.

It didn’t go through with it then but did not hesitate a few months later when diplomat Devyani Khobragade was arrested and strip-searched in New York on December 12.

New Delhi hit back with a bunch of retaliatory measures of which the barriers appear to have hit the US most, raising for them the prospect of a repeat of Benghazi.

But India’s security concerns are no less, having suffered deadly attacks on its embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan twice, losing a top diplomat and an army officer in one of them.

Indian diplomats driving in to work at the DC embassy - 2107 Massachusetts Ave NW, Washington - one May morning noted with alarm a crucial road signage was missing.

It had said “Diplomatic cars only”, and had reserved a small stretch of parking on an inner lane running right past the embassy entrance for vehicles belonging to the mission.

But more than the convenience of reserved parking, much cherished by diplomats working there, the strip secured the front of the embassy from a Times Square kind of bombing attempt.

A vehicle packed with explosives was found parked at Times Square in New York in 2010 just before it could explode killing hundreds in one of the city’s top tourist destinations.

The Indian embassy lodged a protest with the state department the same day pointing out the security risk, among other issues. It was told to get in touch with the DC government instead.

As advised, the embassy wrote to the DC government, without any success. And the Ministry of External Affairs took it up with the US embassy in Delhi, also without any result.

That was the first time Indian considered retaliating by removing the barriers - traffic barriers, not security barriers, a source insisted - outside the US embassy.

The barriers - concrete structures that prevent close access to the embassy - were installed at the request of the Americans in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

It was tough to turn them down then. And the barriers stayed there ever since, to continuing discomfort of other embassies on that road - the French and Swedish.

But it’s hard to feel any sympathy for the US this time around, a source said, after the way Khobragade was arrested and treated in custody of the US Marshals.

It was time the US understood security concerns of other countries. That patch outside the DC embassy is just as important as the barriers in Delhi, another source added.
Singha
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Singha »

chanakyapuri embassy rows (north part) have always had high security with both roving and static maruti gypsy type patrols armed with automatic weapons, radios etc.
due to no other human habitation its quite easy to spot and track anyone loitering around there. the only work for normal people there other than visas is the popular railway museum but thats off in one corner.
http://www.mapsofindia.com/delhi/chanakyapuri.html

whoever decided on the plots for embassies was a true democrat and visionary. america & france share one wall. america and TSP are opposite each other. sudan and ethiopia surround japan and germany. bartania and australia maintain their close proximity here also.

the american consulate will no doubt get the same level of security as the equally majestic french consulate that it shares one wall with.
chetak
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chetak »

Altair wrote:The only CT that even remotely comes close to an acceptable theory is that DK is a deep cover and she was working against American interests. Now to warrant the reaction Indian govt demonstrated to the whole fiasco, she must be representing some very high financial interests for India in US in her capacity as Dy.Consul General. I narrowed down to
1. Iranian Oil
2. Defense contracts
DK's rough arrest may have been the symptom........

The precipitating cause may be here...

U.S. ship crew arrested in Tuticorin

Tutucorin is a hotbed of EJ activity. Would be interesting to track the forces at play here. :)


Court reprieve for 35 crew members of US floating armoury


Dec 27, 2013
TUTICORIN: In a major reprieve for the 35 crew members of the US-based anti-piracy ship Seaman Guard Ohio arrested on charges on entering Indian waters illegally with arms and ammunition, a court in Tamil Nadu's Tuticorin granted them conditional bail on Thursday.

The bail has come after their petitions were dismissed twice in the last 60 days since their arrest, once by a court in Tuticorin and later by the high court bench in Madurai. The crew members are lodged in central prisons at Puzhal in Chennai and Palayamkottai in Tirunelveli. The court granted bail on a fresh petition filed by the crew, accepting their argument that chargesheet was not filed in the case even after 60 days had elapsed after their arrest.

Granting them bail, the court ordered that each of the crew furnish surety for Rs 10,000 for their release. It also ordered that the crew appear at the office of the Q branch police which is investigating the case and sign everyday.

Sunanda Bhagavathy, DSP, Q branch who is the investigation officer in the case declined to comment. "I am afraid I cannot comment on the issue," she said.

But sources in the Q branch said the delay was primarily due to reluctance on the part of crew members to part with information during investigation. The crew members are yet to produce documents permitting them to possess weapons and the source of the huge cache of arms, sources said.

The ship owned by AdvanFort, a US-based company, was intercepted by the Indian Coast Guard off the Kanyakumari coast on October 12 and was towed to Tuticorin. An FIR was registered against the ship's crew for alleged maritime violations. ADGP C Sylendra Babu, Coastal Security Group, had told reporters then that the crew had been booked for carrying arms without permission. "They didn't have documents of authorization. They are allowed to operate in international waters, but strayed into our zone without permission," he said.

There are a few hundred such floating armouries that operate in international waters taking advantage of the thriving international maritime security services industry. These vessels strike deals mid-sea to provide security to ships passing through piracy-infested zones in the Gulf of Aden, the Indian Ocean and more recently the Gulf of Guinea near Nigeria in West Africa.

The vessel, on an anti-piracy mission, was detained and the 35 crew members were arrested on October 18 for entering Indian waters with arms and ammunition. The crew comprising 12 Indians, 14 Estonians, six British nationals and three Ukrainians, was booked under the Arms Act 1959, Essential Commodities Act 1955 and Motor Spirit and High Speed Diesel (Regulation of Supply, Distribution and Prevention of Malpractices) Order 1998.

The arrested men first moved the sessions court in Tuticorin seeking bail. But the petition was dismissed on October 30 as the investigation was in a preliminary stage. The crew then appealed in the Madurai high court bench. But the appeal was also dismissed on December 18 as the police argued that the crew were yet to produce documents on the source of the arms and ammunition and were not revealing the intention for entering Indian waters illegally.

But when the hearing came up in judicial magistrate court in Tuticorin, the advocate appearing for the US ship crew argued that all the 35 were eligible for bail now due to the failure of the police to file chargesheet within 60 days. The judge accepted and granted them bail.

and the GOI riposte being a direct slap on the face


Floating armoury: US crew's bail stayed over security concerns
Dec 28, 2013
TUTICORIN: A district court on Friday stayed the bail granted to 35 crew members of the US floating armoury charged with trespassing into Indian waters and carrying arms and ammunition.

On Thursday, the Tuticorin judicial magistrate court had granted the crew bail, accepting their argument that officials of the state Q branch, investigating the case, had failed to file chargesheet.

District principal sessions judge K Venkatasami ordered that the bail be stayed until further orders. The next hearing has been scheduled for January 3. The bail was stayed on the premise that the case concerns national security and investigation was yet to be completed. The Q branch police investigating the case also submitted in the court that it take into account the rejection of the bail plea by the Madurai bench of the Madras High court.

Earlier, the judicial magistrate court granted bail accepting the argument of the US crew's advocate that the Q branch officials had failed to file a chargesheet in the case even 60 days after their arrest.

The stay has come as a jolt to the US ship crew, who are lodged in Puzhal and Palayamkottai central prisons for the past 65 days (since their arrest on October 18). They were hopeful of being released from the prison in the next couple of days once the court order reached prison authorities.

The police submitted the ship had entered Indian waters illegally with a huge cache of arms, posing a security threat to the nation and region. The police seized 35 assault rifles and 5,680 rounds of ammunition. The court was told that three more people in connection with the case were still at large and investigation was yet to be completed. Arguing that the surety of Rs 10000 was very low, the police also raised apprehension that the crew might attempt to flee the country. Rejecting the argument of US ship crew's advocate defending the bail, judge Venkatasami granted the interim stay.

Though the arrested men were denied bail by a sessions court in Tuticorin on October 30 and later by the Madurai high court bench on December 18, they managed to obtain bail from the judicial magistrate court on Thursday. The advocates of the US ship crew were hurriedly making arrangements to pay the surety amount and preparing for their release from prison. Meanwhile, the Q branch officials have geared up to prepare the chargesheet and lodge it in the court before the mandatory 90 days.
Karan M
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Karan M »

A_Gupta wrote:How readily we slide down slippery slopes!

Underlying these fears is the mental model that only a small group of relatively powerless people understands these problems and they cannot stem the tide, but only stand helplessly, wringing their hands. And behind that is the mental model that most Indians will necessarily make wrong choices. This way, any phantom fear is justifiable.

Good sense is in short supply, I admit, because thinking is allegedly conducive of producing headaches. But I suggest, take one's worst fears (and one's brightest hopes) and divide their intensity by two. Otherwise the lack of steadiness can itself can become a self-fulfilling prophecy inducing future disorders.
Based on what we have seen over the past 8 years with Pak, its a valid fear. The admin has spared no effort in driving this perception. Forget folks on the forum, even this satire website comments on it.

http://www.theunrealtimes.com/2013/12/1 ... eign-govt/
habal
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by habal »

Altair wrote:The only CT that even remotely comes close to an acceptable theory is that DK is a deep cover and she was working against American interests. Now to warrant the reaction Indian govt demonstrated to the whole fiasco, she must be representing some very high financial interests for India in US in her capacity as Dy.Consul General. I narrowed down to
1. Iranian Oil
2. Defense contracts
then common sense would suggest that she should have run a very tight ship. And not let this gaping loophole in form of an in-house IBDA who has extensive links with various embassies loitering around her near & dear ones. If this is indeed the case, then I would say they have assigned the job to the wrong person.

Diplomacy between both countries have broken down, because they have direct access to PMO and NSA, which is evident in the way they micromanage India's relations with Pakistan right down to semantics. There is then no use for diplomats, which is how they feel. This mess can be a case study in how structurally underdeveloped democracies can be subtly manipulated by fixing key players. The laws are all biased and enforced towards the base of the pyramid, the top is very loosely controlled & audited. This should become a political science case-study material.
Sagar G
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Sagar G »

matrimc wrote:Sagar G: Could you please list the favors (I hope you are talking of favors as in "favorable and discriminatory GoI policies") extended and all the parties who benefit from these policies. I will follow you to "Indian Economy" or "Indian Interests" or even "OT" threads.
http://boi.gov.in/content/overseas-citi ... -india-oci

Open the NRI/PIO/PIO Cardholder/OCI: A Comparitive Chart PDF and read.
Cosmo_R
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

TSJones wrote:
It's a play on the movie and the memoir written by Isak Dinesen, Out of Africa. Isak who was actually baroness Karen Blixen who loved Africa...

I know that I can't convince the jingos here otherwise but what the heck, I'll give it a shot and hope the splatter isn't too bad.

And it's still my opinion that the charges against the diplo won't hold up. No way. The charges are really shaky. No jury will buy it.
TSJ, I hope you are right are right and that it was indeed based on Blixen. My own experience (in my youth) having had access to American Embassy clubs in Eastern Europe, Latin America, would imply otherwise.

When one enters these establishments, the reality is that they represent an escape from the 'Dust , Heat and Natives'. Where, curiously, Americans who fled Akron OH, suddenly commiserate (over newly gained Johnny Walker wisdom) and wax nostalgic :'back in the States it wouldn't be....'

In New Delhi, Embassy staff have been too quick to embrace the British burden of the Raj. It's what used to be called the 'Ranee' mentality where any lower middle class brit upon entry into India felt the equal of local royalty. The sense of entitlement reeks and rankles.

In that context, the 'Out of India' name probably was not chosen as an oblique literary allusion. It was (in retrospect) a bad pun.

All that said, I personally and truly believe that India and the US should come closer to forge a true alliance based on convergence of strategic interests. We are both threatened by the same forces: radical Islam and Chinese imperial truculence. Both nations are critical in their respective 'pivots' to Asia.

But more than threats, both countries have the civilizational instincts, talents, resources to form the basis for a win/win partnership. I'm not talking about goofy sentimental stuff but real hard nosed benefits for both sides: military, trade, technology and cultural.

I do hope they get of this irritant that lets everyone declare victory and and lay out a more equal and mutually respectful relationship.

JMT
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Singha saar posted a photo in the fitness thread of Sylendra Babu (mentioned in the article posted by chetak)....guy looks capable of ripping the arms off any arms smuggler! :eek:
member_28336
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by member_28336 »

Mort Walker wrote: It was "the straw that broke the camel's back" where:

1. US DoS did not respond to MEA about removal of signage at the Indian embassy in Washington where a Times Square type bomber could park a vehicle.
2. Repeated harassment of Indian diplomats in New York over the last few years; and if the DoS really believe that DK is guilty, then why not PNG her which ruins her career posting in any western capital?
3. No signs of reciprocity shown to India's diplomats that are given to US diplomats.
4. The theft of large scale of information from India's missions in the US by the NSA. Things like cloning entire hard drives on computers at Indian missions is sure to have pissed off people in the MEA.
It could very well be the last straw. However, one fails to understand what kind of message we are sending by keeping absolute silence (even our minister Sallu defended the need for NSA to snoop at some point!) when NSA's snooping of India is publicized but raising a hue and cry over excessively hard handling of an arrested diplomat (I refuse to bring in the "woman" part here asif it was OK to do it to male diplomatic staff!). I would respect MEA if it had stood firm for all the above cases and enforced reciprocity much earlier.

Common rule of thumb even in inter-personal relationship - if something is not acceptable, make it known in no uncertain terms or learn to let it go. Don't wait around for some other unrelated insult to happen to express your displeasure. That would be kind of like "dehati aurat" behavior.
johneeG
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by johneeG »

g.sarkar wrote: . The objective: To have a cowering India in the US orbit as a vassal and fight American wars in Asia to the last Indian. ... India is to become the next Pakistan. Our generals will wear US medals and speak US English. The will have millions of dollars in US accounts and stage US approved coups. Their children will study in US colleges and be totally cut off from the Indian population. The same goes for the Indian political class. That is the goal.
Saar,
this is something that seems to be already happening to certain extent. This is not a future project. Rather, this is already underway. Dhesh is already behaving like a vassal for a few years now. Perhaps, the take over is not complete, but there seem to be definitely lot of elements that have been compromised.

I think some sections are still holding out and they are the ones being hounded. I don't think this incident was some random event. I think it was well-gamed and well-carried out one with multiple objectives. First, the extent that they have gone to humiliate DK and thereby Bhaarath is surprising. Different sections have to come together, plan it and execute it. This kind of humiliation is not even given to many much less powerful countries than Bhaarath. Yet, Bhaarath was given this treatment. DK is pretty well connected in Bhaarath through her dad and yet they went ahead and did it. I am sure amirkhans knew that DK was well connected. So, they wanted to humiliate Bhaarath. They wanted to humiliate DK. Then, they chose dheshi faces to execute it. A sort of rite of passage to prove loyalty. Maybe these people have to prove their loyalty by undermining Bhaarath. This gives an added benefit that these dheshi people(who are being used to undermine Bhaarath) are now firmly in amirkhan camp because they will be treated as hostiles by the Bhaarath. Another benefit is that if the things get too hot, these particular dheshi guys can be sacrificed as scape goats.

Finally, amirkhan seems to have most of the top echelons in its control. Its the mid-level guys who are still holding the fort for the dhesh. So, these are the ones that are getting attacked in various ways. Mid-level and lower-level babus & mid-level and lower-level military. Amirkhan funded social groups keep raising the issue of AFSPA. or keep alleging barbaric behaviour by Bhaarathiya army. This should be seen as an attack on lower and mid-level army cadre. (Maybe there are some violations, but the amount of interest shown in trying to remove a law that protects primarily the lower and mid-level army guys is interesting). Similarly, amirkhan funded social groups have pushed for lokpal to control lower and mid-level babus. (Now, no doubt corruption and nepotism is quite rampant in babucracy from top to bottom. But, perhaps, even though they are corrupt, they are not totally sold out!)

Now, this latest salvo is an attack on mid-level babus. Perhaps, DK was chosen to convey that their powerful netha benefactors cannot save them from amirkhan ire. But, what wrong did DK do? DK had previously worked on Iran, baki and Asthan. Maybe she frustrated the jihadhi and amirkhan games in those regions previously. That may also be one of the reasons.

She was infiltrated to an extent through a maid(who was perhaps a spy or agent) and compromised through a hubby who is amirkhan citizen. Perhaps, there was an attempt to recruit her which failed. All this adds up and leads to an attack to teach a lesson.

There seems to be another angle here:
just as dhesh's higher echelons are infiltrated or compromised by amirkhan, amirkhan's higher echelons may be infiltrated or compromised by jihadhis. Or maybe amirkhan wants to use jihadhis for some geo-political games. Anyway, its clear that there seems to be a close alliance between jihadhis and amirkhan. That explains why amirkhan has been unable to win in AfPak. This is where islamists like Khalidhi or Zia seem to come in. The sudden death of Khalidhi is also quite interesting. So, whose interests is amirkhan really serving? What are these interests of amirkhan in the first place? Now, MMS gets routinely blamed for pushing for pappi jhappi despite the baki perfidy. Yet, the same thing is also done by higher echelons of amirkhan. They are now funding, arming and helping al caida in libiya and siriya. In Egypt, islamists have come to power. In AfPak, amirkhan continues to arm and fund the bakis(who in turn fund the jihadhis who kill GI joes). So, what are really the interests of amirkhan? Is amirkhan infiltrated by the jihadhis or are jihadhis infiltrated by amirkhan or is it a collusion?

----
One can do an interesting exercise: prepare a chart and list two columns. One column for all the bhaarathiyas who were rewarded or funded or praised by amirkhan. And another column for all the bhaarathiyas who were humiliated or punished or criticized by amirkhan. Maybe a pattern will emerge.
g.sarkar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

Cosmo_R wrote: All that said, I personally and truly believe that India and the US should come closer to forge a true alliance based on convergence of strategic interests. We are both threatened by the same forces: radical Islam and Chinese imperial truculence. Both nations are critical in their respective 'pivots' to Asia.
But more than threats, both countries have the civilizational instincts, talents, resources to form the basis for a win/win partnership. I'm not talking about goofy sentimental stuff but real hard nosed benefits for both sides: military, trade, technology and cultural.
Yes. That is a thought that I have too at times. But how close should India be with the US? Let us forget Pakistan, that miserable excuse for a country. As close as US and the Philippines? As close as US and Japan? As close as US and France? or as close as US and the UK? That is a food for thought.
Even the UK is slapped from time to time to be reminded for their position in the alliance.
Gautam
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by member_22872 »

In all the above cases listed, the tilt in the 'relationship' is towards US. The stronger hand defines and controls the relationship. Do we want that?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

From Houston Chronicle , opinion piece by an American (CNN contributor)
America needs to repair its relationship with India
What Americans really need to kick off the new year is a dramatic improvement in our relations with India. In a world where it sometimes seems that the United States doesn't have many friends and allies, that South Asian country has become both. Most notably, since the attacks Sept. 11, 2001, India has been a partner in fighting the war on terror.

Now the relationship is on the rocks due to an ugly incident involving a 39-year-old deputy consul general of India who was taken into custody on Dec. 12 by the U.S. Marshals Service on charges that she lied on the application for her nanny and housekeeper to legally work in the United States.

That's how it started. But to many Indians, this case is now about something much bigger. It's about respect and what Indian Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid has described as "our sense of self as a nation and our place in the world."

U.S. authorities allege that Devyani Khobragade, who lives in Manhattan, stated on her visa application that she was paying the employee the minimum wage in New York - $9.75 per hour - when she was really paying only about $3.31 per hour. Despite Khobragade's repeated insistence that she had diplomatic immunity, she was placed in a cell with other female detainees and strip-searched.

Technically, at the time of her arrest, Khobragade had limited immunity, according to U.S. officials; the Indian government is now trying to upgrade her status to full immunity.

Meanwhile, Khobragade's attorney, Daniel Arschack, claims that a federal agent "erroneously and disastrously" misread the application. According to the New York Daily News, Arschack believes that the agent mistakenly thought a figure on the form - $4,500 per month - was what Khobragade intended to pay the worker. The attorney insists it was instead the base salary that Khobragade expected to receive at her job, and that it was on the form to show that she could afford to pay her employee the proper wage. U.S. officials had no response to Arschack's comments.

Khobragade posted bond, and she was released. She is now assigned to India's Permanent Mission to the United Nations. The whereabouts of the domestic worker, Sangeeta Richard, are unknown.

Indian officials are incensed over what they consider the "barbaric" treatment endured by this young woman, and they haven't been shy about demonstrating how angry they really are. On Christmas Eve, India rejected the U.S. Embassy's request for an extension on identification cards for its consulate personnel. Instead, when the deadline to extend these cards passed, India withdrew them. Before that, an Indian official suggested that the country revoke the visas of gay partners of U.S. diplomats and arrest those individuals for violating Indian law, which prohibits same-sex relationships. Indian authorities also took down the protective barricades in front of the U.S. Consulate.

The Indian government wants a formal apology for the way in which their representative was treated, and they're not satisfied by what has been offered - a missive from Secretary of State John Kerry expressing "regret" that the incident occurred. Indian officials want to see more contrition, and perhaps even an investigation into the procedures for how U.S. officials deal with foreign diplomats.

Just when we thought that this story could not get any more unpleasant, it has. In what seems like a strange coincidence, the prosecuting attorney in this case - Preet Bharara, the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York - happens to have been born in India. That makes Bharara a despised figure in his homeland, and many Indians have already taken to Twitter to blast him as an "Uncle Tom." To them, Bharara is a sellout who along the line stopped being Indian and became an American.

As this drama continues, with every accusation and diplomatic threat, we'll get further away from what really matters: the facts of the case and the law that pertains to them. This will become about a thousand other things, which will all serve as distractions.

That's why the Obama administration has to clean up this mess with an official and sincere apology. It should be issued by Kerry. And it should have been done yesterday.
chaanakya
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

saip wrote:

I too am confused. Only now I notice there are two with similar names, one an oldie and another a newbee :eek:
Actually, newbee is a Goldie. :)
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by g.sarkar »

venug wrote:In all the above cases listed, the tilt in the 'relationship' is towards US. The stronger hand defines and controls the relationship. Do we want that?
Yes, because the US is the dominant power and we have to engage it. The Philippines and Japan lost wars and were conquered, occupied and ruled. India will never stoop to that level. France is a very reluctant partner. UK has the same religion language and culture. The UK elite have married and invested in the USA ever since the beginning of US as a separate country. They have fought wars against common enemies and fought each other. India certainly can not match intimacy at that level. For what it is worth in my opinion, the Indian relationship with the US will be less than that (the US has) with France in good days, and more than that with China in bad days.
Gautam
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by CRamS »

Aditya_V wrote:I think we Indians see Americans as a Nation, while they see themselves as an Empire. Hence, their behaviour is like that.
As usual Americans are 2-faced on this. When it suits them, they look at themselves as a country and will even get petty "oh poor me" type whining with small countries over minor issues. But on foreign policy formulations, they do look at themselves as having "global interests", another way of saying empire.

But I will tell you where there is a dichotomy in how Americans see their empire versus others.

Others including Indians are peeved at US boorishness, and seethe with jealousy/anger and what have you at the brazenness with which US pursues its interests while giving moralistic mumbo jumbo lectures.

US on the other hand compares itself with brutal colonial empires of the past, and on that scale consider themselves as being benevolent, being a force for good over evil etc. They will cite their role in WWII, the re-building of Europe and SE Asia, help with India's green revolution etc. And so when they see Indians getting so furious over treatment meted out to DK, from their vantage point, its a trite matter that India must overlook.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by vasu raya »

Not sure if this was already posted,

Indians in US missions are GROSSLY underpaid
Indian employees of the United States embassy and consulates in India are being grossly underpaid in comparison to their American counterparts working in these missions, according to information made available to the government.

Even as the External Affairs Ministry is awaiting details of Indian staff employed by the American diplomatic missions, some such current and former employees have come forward with details of their emoluments which are way below the wages being paid to American staff in similar positions.

In fact, in the case of some semi-skilled Indian staff, the wages may be below those prescribed under India's Minimum Wages Act.

Information available to the government shows that an Indian visa officer gets a salary of around Rs 17,000 per month as against about Rs 1.10 Lakh for an American holding a similar position.

One security guard gets Rs 8,000 per month for an eight-hour duty daily, which is way below the Act.
The government had set a deadline of December 23 for the US embassy to furnish details of Indian staff employed along with the salaries in each case. It is understood that the US embassy has cited Christmas and New Year holidays as the reason for the delay.

India's demand was made in the wake of the arrest and strip-search of its Deputy Consul General in New York Devyani Khobragade on December 12 on the charges of underpaying her maid.

Meanwhile, the special group, set up by the foreign secretary, met here for the first time to scrutinise the available information regarding the wages being paid to their Indian staff amid indications that these may be violative of the laws.

The Group will now hold regular meetings. The government's reaction to set up the special group, comprising inter-divisional experts, including from legal, financial and human resources departments of MEA, to assess and monitor the inputs sought by the governments came after the arrest of Khobragade, the 39-year-old 1999-batch Indian Foreign Service officer.

The diplomat's arrest and subsequent treatment had sparked an outrage in India which demanded an apology and dropping of all charges against her. With India deciding to enforce strict reciprocity about the privileges enjoyed by American diplomats posted in the country, the government has withdrawn extra privileges enjoyed by American Ambassador Nancy Powell and other diplomats such as special access at Indian airports.

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pankajs
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by pankajs »

The End of the U.S.-India Honeymoon -
Sadanand Dhume
With the so-called Khobragade affair, involving the arrest of an Indian diplomat in New York, stretching into its third week with little sign of resolution, it looks increasingly likely that the damage to U.S.-India ties will be long-term. Widely held assumptions in Washington and New Delhi—that both countries had found a way to forge a stable, mutually beneficial partnership—turn out to have been premature.
Hope this makes our politicos and diplomats see the errors of their ways.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Abhi_G »

To think that the US and India share a common enemy - Islamism, is a bit too good to be true. US conveniently uses Islamism to destabilize societies in west asia. It is a repeat of what the brits have done in India post 1857. However, the brits are now reaping what they have sowed. The very same ideological forces that the US fights in afpak are seen as freedom fighters in Libya and Syria. Not that Assad or Gaddaffi are far off. They too have nurtured Islamism for future needs until Gaddafi is led upto a tortuous death.

Looking the other way while pakistan upgrades its tactical nuclear arsenal with Chinese help and winking at it when terrorist atrocities occur in India clears a couple of things. Indian establishment is compromised. And secondly Islamism is a sharp practical tool for the US. Good until it starts cutting the US.
Last edited by Abhi_G on 30 Dec 2013 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
Madhusudhan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Madhusudhan »

The End of the U.S.-India Honeymoon -
Sadanand Dhume
Just FYI - WSJ is a subscription site. If you want to read this article, go to news.google.com and type the title.. As long as you follow the link from google, you can read it. If you click on it directly from here, it will ask you to subscribe.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Kati »

chanakyaa wrote:
whoever granted unilateral vast priviledges to US staff in delhi needs to be exposed and shamed. I am sure most of it goes back even to JLN era....
What bothers me is, why isn't NaMo and BJP not calling a full scale investigation and making it a HUGE media headline topic? Given NaMo's visa ban and such.. I would have expected a full blown scandalous headlines on this topic. If anyone followed the IRS scandal in the US, in which certain tea-party groups were targeted by tax authorities, about 2-3 months ago. The whole investigation was turned into a witch hunt that hurt Democrats badly.
Very valid point. It is very very surprising that NaMo and BJP is doing doing enough 'Hallah' as they should have done. May be the overseas Gujju lobby is telling them to keep quiet. because, if a retaliatory find-comb investigations are done then a lot of motel-wallahs will be in docks.

Just my 2 paise.....
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Rony »

Sadanand Dhume is one of those who pretends to be neutral but a firm US lackey. Look at his side headline. So its New delhi's reaction which is the issue but not the American action which caused it.
New Delhi's overwrought reaction to a diplomatic kerfuffle jeopardizes ties that had been strengthening.
And what is this superpower nonsense he is pedaling ? We don't want to be a superpower (what ever that means).We just want to protect our people.
The withdrawal of diplomatic perks—a relatively trivial matter in itself—suggests less steely resolve and more smallness of spirit. Should a rising superpower care about where an American diplomat shops for wine and cheese?
The more i see all the Indian-Americans becoming uncle toms in this matter, the more i am convinced that India should keep these uncle toms at length .They like Uzra zeya has demonstrated use their ethenic origins to get access and information and nothing more in a classic spy fashion.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Kati wrote: Very valid point. It is very very surprising that NaMo and BJP is doing doing enough 'Hallah' as they should have done. May be the overseas Gujju lobby is telling them to keep quiet. because, if a retaliatory find-comb investigations are done then a lot of motel-wallahs will be in docks.

Just my 2 paise.....
Classic problem of businesses interfering in governance, while government interferes in businesses. Both are very bad and require systematic changes. Failure of governance to implement healthy practice of rewarding nay enabling businesses to operate cleanly, has a feedback of businesses that benefits from such symbiotic relationship to clouding the judgment of governance.

In short, when the system is geared to cater private good, at the expense of public good, such things are bound to happen. This requires a thorough reexamination of how governance and businesses work and build the environment for their operations.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Kati ^^^. The spat over DK does not resonate in the debate over the LS elections. NM is being smart: focus on the failures of the UPA in governance and accountability. This is what the 1000s come to rallies to hear.

Getting involved in a bureaucratic bungle would dilute the more powerful message.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Hardly the end of the honeymoon. The fact that US/India have a score of military yearly exercises means that this relationship is far beyond/deeper than what is apparent. I for one don't have a problem with that at all.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Gus »

what utter nonsense..

if america is so bothered by a wage dispute to cavity search a diplomat, what is the big deal about india enforcing its tax and duty free policies and privileges.

why is indian laws not sacrosanct but american laws are so sacrosanct. these people are just so into the USA USA massa myths that they can't even realise how ridiculously double standard and hypocritical their arguments are.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

PTI Tweets:

There is no nefarious motive for arresting Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade, say US government sources: PTI

Devyani Khobragade arrest case: There is no question of apology to India, everything has been done by the book, say US govt sources:

Case against Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade, accused of visa fraud, not being "withdrawn" — US government sources

If Devyani Khobragade returns to India and then comes back to US on a visit, charges will stand, she could face arrest, say sources
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by member_22872 »

Apologies if posted before:
US to proceed with Devyani's prosecution; won't apologise
The United States is proceeding with the prosecution of senior Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade and has no intention to withdraw the case of visa fraud against her.

US sources in New York said on Monday that more evidence was being gathered against the 39-year-old diplomat before the indictment is filed. The deadline for indictment is January 13.

There is no question of apology to India over the arrest of Khobragade, the then Deputy Consul General of India, in New York on December 12 which has led to strong protests by the Indian government and widespread indignation in India.

The Indian government has demanded withdrawal of the case and an apology for the treatment meted out to the diplomat.

However, the sources conceded that if Khobragade gets United Nations immunity she cannot be prosecuted or brought to court for the period of immunity.

But if she returns to India and then comes back to the US on a visit, the charges will stand and she could face arrest, the sources added.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

A_Gupta wrote:How readily we slide down slippery slopes!
The reason I said "remote chance" - seems you missed those to words in your haste to slide down the slippery slope yourself :P
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Let DoJ go ahead and prosecute and see what happens - let's see the additional evidence. GoI will simply repatriate DK back to India. After that express regret and arrest the Bombay Consule General's spouse as you have two men who are openly homosexual and live together in carnal relations.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by member_28369 »

Guys,

i have been a lurker here for a while and decided to take plunge based on this issue I have been following closely. I disagree with most of opinions here. The only strong entity which is showing unnecessary muscle/bulliness to a weaker entity is the Indian govt (or its employees) towards an Indian maid.

1) Why the cheapness and casualness in getting around agreed wages as per VISA and the prevailing law in US? Even H1B contractors don't behave that way. She is a diplomat paid to represent the best of India.

2) Why does IFS as a practice (not exception) seek 24/7 Desi maid imported from India to look after themselves ? I am really puzzled at this practice which really reeks of royal mindset rather than a profession serving a democratic country. Why not recruit from local market? there are so many maids even of Indian origin in NY and its a great way to get to know the country. The entitlement mentality of IFS is condemn able.

3) When an adult employee stops reporting to work voluntarily you dismiss them and report to INS. Why this lobby pressure from IFS to trace and surrender the maid to Indian embassy. She is a maid not a spy or soldier in battle field ? This pressure from India persisted even when NYPD determined that maid left voluntarily.

4) Why a theft and robbery case filed against the maid after a full month after she left for a paltry $100. Why was the case filed in Delhi instead of USA ? Is this not a case of intimidation ? All this to show a maid her place ? much better behavior is expected from a diplomat corps.

5) Why were cases booked against maid husband in India ? when has it become fair game to go against family members ?

6) The maid passport was revoked within a short time. This shows India knew maid left voluntarily still the pressure to have her surrender to embassy as if she were a high value fugitive. Basically India showed full force of law against a maid and this shows how wisely IFS uses its resources.

7) Media reported strip search, cavity search, hand cuffs, and swabs. NYPD said only strip search was done in remote area with female officer and others were not. Devyani did not condemn what NYPD said. So either media or Devyani tried to hype up the case initially. Strip search is not rape even Geroge Feranendes went through it India's top diplomat Nirupama Rao went through it. All this is just about protecting the colonial legacy of IFS. For this purpose they are holding the entire India-US relationships at stake.

There are many more points which show Indian govt in poor light. I urge India to take up things which are worth more rather then these privleges of IFS lobby.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Dhume's expressing sentiments similar to those seen on the forum, where the recalibration of unilateral privileges is not seen as reciprocal retaliation.

Now that most US staff in India is subject to local laws, the Indian side appears to be digging deep for any prosecutions it can launch.

Indian alleges human rights violation by US embassy
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Kati »

Yesterday there was a major rally in Ranchi for NaMo by BJP.
While NaMo didn't wade into the DK matter, Jaswant Singh did get into it, and
thundered that when NaMo comes to power, Ombaba's visa will be denied. .....
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Prem »

http://blog.heritage.org/2013/12/29/tim ... ith-india/
Time to Arrest Downward Spiral with IndiaLisa Curtis
S Secretary of State John Kerry’s expression of regret over the US arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade is not enough to get relations back on an even keel.For the sake of the partnership, which Secretary Kerry himself has referred to as one of the most important for the US in the twenty-first century, the US must apologize for the manner in which Khobragade was treated during her arrest and incarceration in a New York City jail.The details of Devyani’s arrest have infuriated Indians nationwide. The incident has tapped into an underlying, yet powerful, sense among Indians of being taken for granted and disrespected by the US.It’s as if the last ten years of conscious trust building between the two nations—most notably through the historic civil nuclear deal but also in their growing economic and defense ties—has taken a back seat to this diplomatic dispute.
Washington has been surprised by the revival of this “trust deficit” and especially with the notion expressed by some Indian s that the US is intentionally trying to humiliate India.To the contrary, Americans view India as a new friend and partner that is poised to play an important role in Asia and beyond. The US loses nothing by issuing a formal apology for Khobragade’s treatment.It’s a mystery why Washington has not already done so. There would almost certainly be broad political support among Democrats and Republicans alike on Capitol Hill for making such an apology in order to restore relations.The US should acknowledge that it made a mistake in not according Khobragade the appropriate treatment due a diplomat.This might not resolve the issue altogether, since India also is demanding the charges be dropped, but it would go a long way in helping assuage Indian sentiment.There are still several unanswered questions surrounding the case. The Indian government has hinted that the maid, Sangeeta Richard, with help from American lawyers, is gaming the US visa system to gain asylum for herself and her family in the US.The lawyer for the maid, on the other hand, holds that Richard was mistreated by Khobragade and is portraying the issue as a human trafficking case. The facts will undoubtedly emerge as the case moves through the US court system.
For its part, India needs to cool down the rhetoric and restore security barriers at the US Embassy. Many Indians, while upset about the Khobragade affair, view the removal of the security barricades as a petty and unnecessary step. The security threat to the US Embassy and other US facilities is real.One of the problems is that India is in the middle of a heated election season and the Opposition BJP has already blamed the Manmohan Singh government for having a weak foreign policy that has led other countries to take India for granted.
With important regional challenges looming like Afghanistan and China, India and the US cannot afford to let the issue sour relations for much longer.Let’s hope peace and goodwill will be restored between Washington and New Delhi – just in time for the Christmas holiday.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

chinna wrote:.......

It could very well be the last straw. However, one fails to understand what kind of message we are sending by keeping absolute silence (even our minister Sallu defended the need for NSA to snoop at some point!) when NSA's snooping of India is publicized but raising a hue and cry over excessively hard handling of an arrested diplomat (I refuse to bring in the "woman" part here asif it was OK to do it to male diplomatic staff!). I would respect MEA if it had stood firm for all the above cases and enforced reciprocity much earlier.

Common rule of thumb even in inter-personal relationship - if something is not acceptable, make it known in no uncertain terms or learn to let it go. Don't wait around for some other unrelated insult to happen to express your displeasure. That would be kind of like "dehati aurat" behavior.

Its the political class that sets the tone. MEA, IFS, IAS etc are all babus and will obey whatever the elected politicians dictate.

So asking IFS to develop a spine is to demand they disobey the political orders.
Start the cure at the right origins.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

adhkiran: What you said is besides the point even if it is completely true (I think what you described is partially correct not entirely). But what is simmering below the surface is what Lisa Curtis has said in her piece.
Lisa Curtis wrote:The incident has tapped into an underlying, yet powerful, sense among Indians of being taken for granted and disrespected by the US
But she is wrong in saying that removing the barriers is a "petty and unnecessary step" - au contraire. It in fact brings into sharp focus US parcel tongue speak regarding "good"and "bad" taliban and the "non-state actors" "extremist" euphemisms for terrorists, the constant refrain of "Pakistan suffering more from terrorism than India", and calisthenics of GOTUS in their Af-Pak policy. And DK being moved to UN has taken the urgency out of resolving the crisis. Now GoI can dig deeper to get to the root cause (US's favorite explanation of Pak supported terror in Kashmir).
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 31 Dec 2013 05:06, edited 1 time in total.
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