India-US Strategic News and Discussion

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 31 Dec 2013 19:51

Mort Walker wrote:Let's not forget that India still needs the US too. The Mangalyaan mission is dependent on the US deep space network and India will need it for the next mission as well. The C-17 and C-130J are simply the best and most efficient aircraft in its class and both Boeing and LM can deliver at cost and ahead of schedule. Don't forget the Indian Navy's P-8i that were delivered which are world class naval surveillance aircraft. India needs to purchase a few hundred more GE-404 and Ge-414 engines and have several squadrons of the Tejas LCA to replace all of the Mig-21s and 27s. IMO, the French Rafale will never fly in IAF colors because of delays and simply the French can't produce it in quantity, nor do I see it being as reliable.

There does need to be reciprocity. No more duty free BX run by US missions in India, nor should there be any VVIP passes at airports or anywhere else. The barricades at the US embassy in Delhi will only go up if adjacent embassies do not object AND the public parking adjacent to the Indian embassy in Washington is removed.

BTW, Nancy Powell was ambassador at one time to TSP. She looks like a lesbian. Need to see if her "spouse" is violating Indian law.

Mortji, it never was India's intention to have bad relations with US. None of our PMs have been Ahmedinajad types, they have all always been pragmatic about India's needs (even at the height of cold war). You can accuse our babus, you can never accuse them of not being pragmatic. So there is not much more that India can do. The treatment given to our diplomat is a direct and tangible reflection of US intent. For the near future, I believe India has to pursue damage control with full force, to minimize the impact of US nataks w.r.t the products we depend on them. DKs and in future others cannot be made bali-ka-bakras to keep Unkil in good humor.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 31 Dec 2013 19:52

Hitesh wrote:I must say my piece.

I am sick of the sweeping generalizations made by some of the posters that were bordering on racist tones. I am a PIO. I was born in India and immigrated to America at an early age of 2 and half. I became an American citizen when I was in my early twenties only after 9/11 when the new laws made it impossible for me to keep my green card status because I do a lot of traveling and I have made my life in America. But nevertheless, I never lost my love or my bond for India and I, including my family have contributed to the building of a prosperous society in India in many ways.

When this episode happened, I was immediately angered and wrote posts denouncing the acts of US and defended GoI's point of view and wrong a strongly worded letter to my congressman.

So what does G. Sagar and the likes of him have to say about me? Are they going to call me a traitor and accuse me of disloyalty and not being Indian? It speaks volumes of the small mindness of Sagar and others like him.

Many NRIs and PIOs have positively contributed to the success of India by bringing the knowledge base and wealth to India and they deserve some recognition. We don't ask for people to bow to us and worship. All we ask for is recognition that we are doing something positive and have something to contribute and treat us like we are part of Greater India, not somebody to be scorned and excluded from.

So I ask the moderators to stop the personal and unjustified attacks against many NRIs and PIOs because those attacks are unwarranted and unsubstantiated and only serve to weaken the unity of India.

Jai hind.

I find it amusing that without making an effort to go through my posts you have already tagged me "racist" and "small minded". If you are so angry right now with me for pointing out some facts and stating my views then where were you when a group of people from your set were lecturing India about how it should "back off" and it's totally Devyani's fault.

I haven't denied or back patted NRI's/PIO's/OCI's for doing what they are doing because they are doing it in their individual capacity and for their own good with which I have no problem but I won't accept any kind of moral lecturing from this set especially when India isn't at fault. A lot of excuses have been dished out defending the invisibility of the Indian diaspora in this case to pressurize the American government but the thing is that nobody is buying that anymore. Even the GoI has noticed this, so are you going to say the same thing about them as well ??? Some people from your set were saying that the anger towards your set is due to India's own "napunsakta" but the reality is that the Indian diaspora is equally as "napunsak" and "dhimmi" as they so joyfully declare India to be. So if you don't like my talk back then please direct your anger at your own set of people before putting tag marks on somebody else.

Indian's working and living in India have contributed the most to it's success and by saying this I mean no disrespect to the NRI's/PIO's/OCI's but then they start their moral lecturing and everything from their goes spirally downwards. So if you really want to get angry get angry with these people and point your anger at them instead of huffing and puffing over my posts for pointing this out.

India will recognize those who serve Indian interests and defend it when required irrespective of their race/religion and no leniency is to be showed to anyone whether living in India or abroad who fails to do this. Because some NRI's/PIO's/OCI's think that since they are working in "developed" countries and hence automatically get an "upper hand" in giving lectures to the "dirty poor b@stards" back home and the people back home must put up with it, well the dream run that they had is coming to an end. Today a "few" people are pointing this tomorrow the whole India might start talking about it. It's time to start matching you words with on the ground action.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 31 Dec 2013 20:01

pankajs wrote:Khobragade case: India awaits authorised US response, to pursue privilege issue
I am sure NM is keenly waiting US/GOI response .. US response will be clear by 13th Jan and I believe it will be impossible to withdraw the case beyond this date. Continuance of the case beyond this date will give him a stick to beat CON on one of its assertions in the parliament.

The earlier report was incomplete .. Here is the remaining portion of the PTI report from another source
India Awaits Authorised US Response, to Pursue Privilege Issue

It is understood that the government knows the identity of the US diplomat who has used his privilege to sign-off the tax exemption for Sangeeta's family.

It is now investigating as to who purchased the ticket, which was issued by the official travel agent of the US Embassy.

Asked if the UN had informed the US State Department that the Indian diplomat had full immunity at the time of arrest as she was accredited as "Adviser" to it, the Spokesperson said,"I will find it very surprising that an international organisation does not, periodically, inform host government about those who they have accredited".

Since the UN accreditation happened on August 26, it is assumed that the host country was aware of Khobragade's status, he said, adding that the Indian diplomat repeatedly kept telling the US authorities at the time of arrest that she has diplomatic immunity as the Deputy Consul General.

No point in time was she asked if she had additional immunity, the Spokesperson said, asserting that the "victim (Khobragade) cannot be blamed" for not talking about her additional immunity.

He also noted that government has "set in motion" the process of monitoring and assessing the inputs and details it has sought from American Embassy by setting up a special group, comprising inter-divisional experts, including from legal, financial and human resources departments of MEA which will meet regularly and "may be on daily basis, if need be".

With India deciding to enforce strict reciprocity about the privileges enjoyed by American diplomats posted in the country, the government has withdrawn extra privileges enjoyed by American Ambassador Nancy Powell and other diplomats such as special access at Indian airports.

I has read earlier that US was waiting for the situation to calm down on both sides so that a non-apology, etc could me managed when the media had moved on. I wonder if they have considered the NM factor. NM, if he so chooses, could turn the incident into an full fledged election issue that will continue to rage till elections rather than quieten down.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 31 Dec 2013 20:06

Karan M wrote:This decision by the MMS Govt, is one which is going to be worth watching in terms of its impact, in years to come.

Aren't you seeing any yet ??? Expect more such incidences in coming years.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 31 Dec 2013 20:18

eklavya wrote:SS, I think this statement is essentially an admission from the US government that their actions have unnecessarily damaged the relationship between our countries.

Frankly, it was good of Nancy Powell to issue a renewed statement of "regret", even if it is not everything that we want.

Now that the matter is "sub judice", I wonder if the US government even has an option to withdraw the case, without massive loss of H&D at the very least (it may even mean that Kerry's career is holed below the waterline).

They will give DK diplomatic status, and then the matter will basically go away.

To answer your question - No.

Not now. Not so late.

Issues of mistreatment (absolutely) and error in charging (possible) and immunity (we hope) aside, once this thing entered what passes for the judicial process in the US, it is a different beast altogether.

It could be at a later stage post indictment that on an evaluation of the evidence, the charge might be dropped.

Caveat - I am looking at this from the perspective of a practitioner in a legal system based on the (in my view) more sensible English legal system !

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Dec 2013 20:19

Mort Walker wrote:I disagree. Russia and Europe don't have viable alternatives and some European countries are operators of the same US weapon systems. Let's leave this discussion for another forum.

Thats your opinion and you have a right to it. But the facts speak otherwise. Namely, that if India really chose to, it could either accept something similar from other nations (e.g. EJ200 or developed variant for the LCA) or something purpose developed for its needs (it would have to pay more, but it would be less amenable to twisting - such as financing completion of Il-476 series in lieu of C-17).

As regards some European countries operating the same systems, well thats part of their quid pro quo for being part of the security umbrella that NATO provides and choosing the expedient, cheaper option from the US to conserve costs. Many local programs have suffered in turn. Look up what happened to Project Lampyridae.

Problem is for the past 8 years we have had such an Indian Govt in power, that ran its security policy as being an extension of that of the US (problems with Pak? run to khan) and as such, its decisions are being shown up to be suboptimal in case after case.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Dec 2013 20:31

Sagar G, Hitesh and others, please stop these generalized rants questioning people's loyalties here based on where they reside....what is this "your set", "my set" BS.??? Next time it will result in warnings.

srin · Post by **srin** » 31 Dec 2013 20:32

I'm going to set aside the diplomatic maneuvres possible (if they were desired), and focus on the legal points.

On purely legal grounds, the entire case hinges on the following points:
a) Is an Indian (SR) employed within the Indian territory (the Indian consulate), is the employment subject to US law ?
b) If yes, can the wage be calculated ignoring the free full-time accommodation etc ? The CTC ("cost to country") will be far higher than simply wages.
c) If still yes, was DK having diplomatic immunity at the time of arrest ?
d) If no, does DK have diplomatic immunity from prosecution now ?

e) Finally, can the officials of the US consulate in India - who doesnt have full diplomatic immunity - who facilitated the so-called "evacuation" be liable to be charged with contempt of court ?

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 31 Dec 2013 20:38

Thanks you Raja Bose. The "your set" BS was a bit over the top.

For the Indian diaspora, I truly believe that we can be useful by adopting the strategy of Israel and the Jewish diaspora with a very strong PAC with plenty of $$$. Nothing else is going to work. Only $$$ and political contributions talk. Goodwill, shared vision, share values, blah blah, and everything else is just hot air. Also, India having true dual-citizenship will help cultivate such PACs.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 Dec 2013 20:44

Sagar G: Please stop and back off. Individual behaviors should be treated as that of the individual, rather than being ascribed to a whole category of people. Any further attempt to characterize a subset of Indians or Indian original people in this manner will result in your being warned for disruption.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 31 Dec 2013 21:03

Madhusudhan wrote:Thanks you Raja Bose. The "your set" BS was a bit over the top.

For the Indian diaspora, I truly believe that we can be useful by adopting the strategy of Israel and the Jewish diaspora with a very strong PAC with plenty of $$$. Nothing else is going to work. Only $$$ and political contributions talk. Goodwill, shared vision, share values, blah blah, and everything else is just hot air. Also, India having true dual-citizenship will help cultivate such PACs.

+100 Madhusudan ji. USA seem to have no place for majority minority politics which NGOs in USA seem to peddle so much. Indian diaspora seem to be losing focus in USA due to apathy of this sort which Indian government seem to not care about too. This is a factor perhaps in Indian community losing focus slowly of self identity and organization. Many of such focus areas need to be developed for well being. Shockingly, anti Hindu hate crimes haven't been reported officially even by government agencies against court orders and no information and propaganda in USA is bothered about such hate crimes that can deliver a blow to family and individuals. If tomorrow a paki pasand khan diplomat repeats this, this whole discussion will need to be repeated.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 Dec 2013 21:23

from what we get in news, it seems that we have enough to charge amirkhan diplos with tax evasion and misuse of visa at the very least. all we need is someone with balls to draw up charges and give the 'standard intake procedure' bashan back.

AniB · Post by **AniB** » 31 Dec 2013 21:43

Why risk this confrontation by Being tough on India?

FACTS:
1. SD is show-casing its anti human trafficking initiatives since 2003. http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewc ... xt=facpubs; http://www.state.gov/j/tip/laws/
India is identified as major problem area. Several campaigns have been made (Malhotras, Prabhu Dayal, Krittik Biswas….). “The Americans always get things right after trying everything else”. Though I abhor Churchill as a brilliant but cruel man, he may have understood the kahans rather well.
Now GOTUS can say it has been tough on India (why? to offset outsourcing?).

2. SD is steadily eroding the VCCR http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/150546.pdf and may think that US courts will not stand in the way[(http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewc ... xt=facpubs)]. The Roberts court may be perceived as more similar to Rehnquist court. SD may be gambling that the internal laws of the US will legitimize the Hegemon’s favors.

3. Someone(s) correctly anticipated the prevalent support by PIOs and Indians against Dr. DK.

4. India’s ‘retaliation’ (game theory) was unanticipated (too many years of UPA? Didn’t recognize elections in the offing?).

5. Fair amount of resentment (going by thousands o f comments, any polls?). My NRI take, (after 4 decades of assimilation), finds Poor understanding, misconceptions, stereotypes of nerdy creeps. Food smells mainly methi, dots, taking away US employment, envy, EJs, religious revulsion (idolatry, conflation with Islam). Maid servants.

IMPASSE
After current GOI reaction US cannot withdraw or lose face. Republicans would shred Obama Dems at the upcoming House and Senate elections if there was another apology or backing off.

SPECULATION (US POV)
i. Bharara is picking low hanging fruit, and wants to emulate Rudy Giulliani (a predecessor Prosecutor of NY).

ii. Anticipating NaMo govt, Cutting off NaMo options beforehand. Na Mo will have to play nice to increase US business investment and tech transfer to India. And tone down any tough guy stances. Start him on the backfoot in 2015. May explain why NaMo is not rising to the bait.

iii. Something to do with retreat from PAK-Af. Else, elements within DoD and SD may not on the same page.

iv. The reactions of US industry re deteriorating relations (not expected), had not been factored.

v. General cultural ethos. All elements of SD and DoD see India as a pawn. “Nice to have, OK to sacrifice”.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 31 Dec 2013 22:00

Madhusudhan wrote:For the Indian diaspora, I truly believe that we can be useful by adopting the strategy of Israel and the Jewish diaspora with a very strong PAC with plenty of $$$. Nothing else is going to work. Only $$$ and political contributions talk. Goodwill, shared vision, share values, blah blah, and everything else is just hot air. Also, India having true dual-citizenship will help cultivate such PACs.

That is not going to happen. Unfortunately.

The India diaspora is a mixed bag. The diaspora can be broadly divided into the following groups:
1) Americans born to desi immigrants in US or immigrated to US at a very early age ( aka ABCDs )
2) Indians that have migrated to US as adults and have been in the US for a very long time ( most of them now citizens )
3) NRIs for the past 10-15 yrs

You will find people who hate, like or indifferent to India/anything Indian in all the above groups. Some of them have cultural ties but not emotional ones.

Most of the ABCDs that I have come across ABCDs who dislike/ignore/ashamed of newly arrived desis. But there are exceptions. I was introduced to BRF by an ABCD whose parents immigrated to US 45years ago. There were Keralite Christians. He married a gori it was a traditional Hindu marraige. He intends to spend a few years in India and learn more about our culture. BRF poster Hitesh is another example.

A close buddy of mine who came to the US for MS in 1996 hates India and anything to do with India. I have not heard one good word in favor of India from him. Ever.

Most of the desis in US are here for economical reasons and do wish for the development and growth of India. Most of them are frustrated with the way things are in Idia and have essentially given up all hope of seeing a better India. The longer people stay in the US, the lesser the emotional ties. Once that goes away, what is left?

My friend summed it up best on his facebook page:
"I'm going to India for a few weeks. All these years, whenever I went to India, it felt like I was going home. Now, for the first time, I feel like I'm leaving home to go to India."

Until and unless the Indian diaspora is emotionally invested in India /India culture / India's growth ( not their investments in India ), it will be fairly impossible to have something similar to the Jewish dispora.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 Dec 2013 22:12

vnmshyam, every last person is not required to be invested in the process. The same applies to AIPAC or other diaspora PACs.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 31 Dec 2013 22:20

Suraj wrote:vnmshyam, every last person is not required to be invested in the process. The same applies to AIPAC or other diaspora PACs.

True. Not everyone needs to be invested. But a critical mass is needed. That doesn't exist today.

I for one, now know much more about the true Indian history and culture than when I was in India ( thanks to BRF ). And I thought that I was pretty well informed about everthing!! We need to 'harvest more souls'. I'm sure that there are thousands of 'vnmshyams' out there.....

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 Dec 2013 22:39

Raja Bose wrote:Sagar G, Hitesh and others, please stop these generalized rants questioning people's loyalties here based on where they reside....what is this "your set", "my set" BS.??? Next time it will result in warnings.

Thanks, RB. This is becoming tiresome. I am sure for every MUTU there is more than one MITI. If there arent India would not have become recipient of largest (over $70 bil last year) foreign exchange remittances.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 Dec 2013 22:45

Win Win for everyone..
American-Style Start-Ups Take Root in India
Excerpts:

MUMBAI, India — India has built a reputation as a notoriously tough place to do business, one that has stymied even giants like Walmart. And unlike Silicon Valley, where a decent idea can attract funding, investors in India are much more reluctant to risk their money on start-ups.

Despite such challenges, some American technology entrepreneurs are seeking to pursue the country’s untapped opportunities, even without the clout of a multinational corporation backing them.

Peter Frykman, 30, of Palos Verdes, Calif., found his network of support at Stanford University, where he was a doctoral student in mechanical engineering. With the help of an angel investor in the United States, he created a pilot study in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu in 2008 for his agricultural start-up, Driptech, which makes affordable, efficient irrigation systems for small-plot farmers.
....

In 2011 Mr. Frykman moved to Pune, India, after Driptech closed a funding round led by Khosla Impact, founded by the venture capitalist Vinod Khosla. “It’s kind of unusual to start a company and then realize that the biggest opportunity is in India,” Mr. Frykman said. “We sort of did it backwards.”

India may be home to many of the largest outsourcing consulting firms, and tech-oriented cities like Bangalore have attracted global technology giants like Microsoft. But attracting American-style entrepreneurism here has happened in fits and starts.

American-based venture capital firms and the Indian units of American venture capital firms, like Sequoia Capital India, invested $172 million this year through mid-December, excluding joint ventures. That fell from $250 million in 2006, according to Venture Intelligence, a research service based in Chennai that is focused on private equity. In the latest World Bank rankings on the ease of doing business, India slipped three spots, to 134th out of 189 countries.

Some 42 venture capital firms based in the United States, however, have either opened offices in India or opened Indian units since 2006, according to Venture Intelligence.
<snip>

A full version of this article appears in print on 12/31/2013, on page B1 of the NewYork Times...

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 Dec 2013 22:48

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Dec 2013 22:51

Enough fratricide or friendly fire. One more even a link to chatterati idiots will get a warning and result in bans.
ramana

AmberG, most Silicon Valley VC firms have Indian based ventures.
Khosla Ventures and so on.

All its Japanese technology that is needed to sustain Indian economy.

saip, if you know its OT then why post here?

Lets not suffer from nukkaditis :the malaise to post anything everywhere.

member_24580 · Post by **member_24580** » 31 Dec 2013 23:40

vnmshyam wrote:
Madhusudhan wrote:For the Indian diaspora, I truly believe that we can be useful by adopting the strategy of Israel and the Jewish diaspora with a very strong PAC with plenty of $$$. Nothing else is going to work. Only $$$ and political contributions talk. Goodwill, shared vision, share values, blah blah, and everything else is just hot air. Also, India having true dual-citizenship will help cultivate such PACs.
That is not going to happen. Unfortunately.

The India diaspora is a mixed bag. The diaspora can be broadly divided into the following groups:
1) Americans born to desi immigrants in US or immigrated to US at a very early age ( aka ABCDs )
2) Indians that have migrated to US as adults and have been in the US for a very long time ( most of them now citizens )
3) NRIs for the past 10-15 yrs

You will find people who hate, like or indifferent to India/anything Indian in all the above groups. Some of them have cultural ties but not emotional ones.

There could be more reasons for the indifference of Indian diaspora to DK case. The way Indians are treated by the staff whenever they visit the embassy or consulate is quite despicable.
Also quite surprised the amount of noise made by the govt when a bureaucrat was picked up when compared to prez Kalam. No one made any noise then neither did the govt retaliate. I think GOTUS would learn its lesson - "Don't mess with Indian bureaucrats & politicians, rest everyone in the country is dispensable"

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Dec 2013 23:41

nukkaditis

.

mort has valid inputs - i think strategically, we should look at advantage points in building a india-centric relationship and at the same time ensure, those strategic relationships are not spoiled by some frivolous set of events.

end of day, we may have corrections to do on both strategic and internal security. there could be conflicting aspects that spread to civilian space as well. we have to be careful in separating these from defence related issues (like some one suggests cancel hercules etc). we are giving into emotions than strategic thinking.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 Dec 2013 23:47

well PIO, ABCD, PIGS, FOB, OCI, NRI and everybody in between and out...they are just a reflection of indians in india. if we start blaming groups, there's plenty to go around for everybody. treat individuals as individuals. it is hard to put us into one box.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Jan 2014 00:49

I am thinking that behind all this fiasco and certain attributes pertaining to this, it is Obama vs Kerrorist angle that needs to be seen in a different light.

I firmly believe that Obama wants to put Kerrorist out of his misery for he has been an abject failure on the foreign relations perspective and even becoming threat to the nation.

We all know that Kerrorist failed in his Presidential bid and yet hung on and accepted a junior position to a black President Obama. Given his circle and race, Kerrorist belonged to the age when black people were not even worthy to talk to and yet he continues to cling to the power in whatever shape and form even reporting to someone he never would have imagined.

We also saw how Putin publicly abused Kerrorist for allegedly 'lying' to people and on camera during the Syria situation. He was readily championing collaborating with Al-Queda and reducing the US Army status to a mercenary army doing Arab bidding. I firmly believe that some folks in Obama admin with right senses worked with Putin (and his Oped in NYT) and drove two nations towards reconciliation.

In the whole Syrian situation, Kerrorist positioned and oversaw diplomatic defeat of US at the hands of Putin/Russia (along with Iran and Syria).

Even the success of Iranian agreement was snatched away from Kerrorist when there were reports of certain "foreign" govt heads (Indian media claimed it was MMS) working directly with Obama playing major part. Basically, the Iranian agreement came to fruition not because of any leadership of Kerrorist but despite him.

From the above situations I read that there is a complete (mutual) lack of confidence between Obama and Kerrorist.

I am thinking that there is Obama vs Kerrorist element to the diplomatic fiasco with India and it is possible Indians have an appreciation of this fact which is reflected in the kind of reaction we are seeing. If this all played out well, we should see Nancy Powell declared as PNG and Obama taking Kerrorist to task, resulting in his ouster, for turning friends into enemies.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 01 Jan 2014 01:12

My opinion on the issues raised by you in blue font.

srin wrote:I'm going to set aside the diplomatic maneuvres possible (if they were desired), and focus on the legal points.

On purely legal grounds, the entire case hinges on the following points:
a) Is an Indian (SR) employed within the Indian territory (the Indian consulate), is the employment subject to US law ?
Small nitpick: AFAIK, SR was employed in DK's home and DK's home would not be considered part of the Indian Consulate and hence is not Indian Territory.

b) If yes, can the wage be calculated ignoring the free full-time accommodation etc ? The CTC ("cost to country") will be far higher than simply wages.
Since DK's NYC home is not Indian territory, NY wage law would prevail and according to changes in US law, the cost of accomodations etc. cannot be used in wage calculations. If I read correctly, even wages paid to SR's husband in India for services rendered in US by SR would not count towards salary.

from here: http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html
Payment. The contract must state that after the first 90 days of employment, all wage payments must be made by check or by electronic transfer to the domestic worker’s bank account. Neither Mission members nor their family members should have access to domestic workers' bank accounts. In addition, the Department requires that the employer retain records of employment and payment for three years after the termination of the employment in order to address any complaints that may subsequently arise. Further, the bank account must be in the United States so that domestic workers may readily access and utilize their wages.

c) If still yes, was DK having diplomatic immunity at the time of arrest ?
DK's diplomatic immunity will be an important area of focus in this case. If there is Diplomatic Immunity then there is no case hence US prosecutor will need to show that DK does not have immunity from prosecution. Only if that is established can the other issues be debated in the court. The court has no standing if DK has immunity.

d) If no, does DK have diplomatic immunity from prosecution now ?
DK may be afforded diplomatic immunity via her recent move to UN (not the Aug one but the Dec one as the details from the US side about DK's move to the UN as a consultant in Aug are still not out in the media). The Dec move also is subject to a pending approval by the US. If accredited she may escape the prosecution for as long as she is accredited to the UN and the case will be kept in cold storage. If she loses her UN diplo. immunity then the case against her can be revived.

e) Finally, can the officials of the US consulate in India - who doesnt have full diplomatic immunity - who facilitated the so-called "evacuation" be liable to be charged with contempt of court ?
It will be an issue that will have to be determined by court in India. For that to happen, GoI will need to allow a prosecutor in India to file charges, issue warrants and then actually arrest US consulate employee and/or employees. At that point any hope of repairing this breach in the relationship will be lost and a point of no return reached for atleast a decade. It will be 1971 and USS enterprise in bay of Bengal all over again.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 01 Jan 2014 01:55

Friend of BJP who are asking, NaMo to weigh in on this current issue are doing a disservice to NaMo. If NaMo issues a strongly worded statement that opposes the US, he will be targeted by the western media as a being petty politician out for petty revenge for the revoking of his B1 visa in 2005 by State Dept. Already western media journalists have alluded to the coming 2014 elections in India as being one of the reason for a strong reaction from India regarding DK's arrest.

Similarly In India among MSM journalists, he will be considered as vitiating the atmosphere for the ruling govt. He will be labeled as being petty for making a bad situation worse. He has nothing to gain by wading into this issue as he is not in power at the center and this is a Federal issue and not Gujarat state issue.

As the primary leader of the principal opposition party going into 2014 general elections he must keep on demanding protection from prosecution for DK by the Govt of India and also demand that GoI not compromise on any vital Indian interests vis-a-via Indo-US relations. Other than that he must steer clear and let other minions within BJP keep on issuing strong statements that puts the MMS govt on the backfoot if they try to pussyfoot on this issue. Sometimes in the interest of diplomacy, it is better to hold one's tongue even if it mean biting one's lip.

Just my Do Kaudi!!!

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 01 Jan 2014 01:56

duplicate post

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 01 Jan 2014 02:02

Suraj: I understand (and expressed my support for that view when it was first aired by JEM many years ago) that US is not a single entity. My point is that Lisa Curtis is wrong in characterizing removal of the barriers as "petty and unnecessary". It might have come at a time of crisis but IMHO GoI should be taken at face value in what it has stated unequivocally; this is a step reciprocating the removal of the diplomatic lane in front of Indian Embassy in DC. Lot of actions are "petty and unnecessary" from both sides but they are going in lock step with US leading and India reacting. When Dr. DK's insult is reciprocated in future by GoI, as a friend of India I would not be saying that it is "petty and unnecessary" or "dehati aurat"ly behavior (chinna's words, IIRC). The party in power and the opposition (who are part and parcel the GoI) and the people they represent are united on the issue of mistreatment which should be taken into cognizance by all US constituencies.

That said, since I don't know much about Lisa Curtis and her views, ~~I am editing out~~ (no can do now) retracting my criticism of her views.

By the way, motherland question does not arise. If GOTUS turns out to be in the wrong in this Dr. DK affair, I certainly would sign any petition and lend my might, however puny, to point out the bungling by the government who was put there partly due to my vote.

There are only two possibilities which can explain the apparent inflexibility of DoS (and DoJ).

1. "An intelop gone wrong" theory: A lot has been said already - so no point repeating.

2. "Dr. DK physically abused and/or threatened SR with dire consequences" theory: Let me put forth a very parsimonious argument to support this theory. What if SR went to Safe Horizons through her church circles or other friends she might have made during these 7 months and they found sufficient grounds to get legal sanction for SR to wear a wire and collect evidence of threats or some such to make the case watertight. In that case, all of DoS (Secretary Kerry on down), can do is to wring hands and express regrets (which they have done). It is out of their hands for now.

I hope the latter theory is proved wring but at as of now it cannot be ruled out.

Where I find fault with the US powers that be is the way they handled Dr. DK. That was uncalled for. So is linking removal of barriers to this affair even after GoI has said repeatedly that it is because France and other embassies around US embassy have raised objections and "oh by the way please look into this other small matter of removal of the diplomatic lane in front of our DC embassy".

-----------------------

SSridhar: I don't think this would compare to 1971; not by a large margin.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 01 Jan 2014 02:04

Satya_anveshi wrote: I am thinking that there is Obama vs Kerrorist element to the diplomatic fiasco with India and it is possible Indians have an appreciation of this fact which is reflected in the kind of reaction we are seeing. If this all played out well, we should see Nancy Powell declared as PNG and Obama taking Kerrorist to task, resulting in his ouster, for turning friends into enemies.

Sir sorry to say but this sounds like a good Hollywood script...
Lets just assume that its true..it doesn't seem to be logical and I doubt OB has no options left to sack Kerry and instead choose to take a longer route of breaking the relations with India for which he and MMS had put so much effort..

IMHO ...what SS sir said is true there are reasons for all this drama which involves everyone from OB office to local pandu in NYPD....
Only time will tell us what those reasons are...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 01 Jan 2014 02:06

habal wrote:Economic downturn in US is also beginning to affect critical areas of their thinking faculty now.

Ouch ...

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 01 Jan 2014 02:07

ramana wrote: AmberG, most Silicon Valley VC firms have Indian based ventures.

Really? I know there are quite a few but MOST? Any source to claim that way..
(For example http://www.cbinsights.com/blog/trends/t ... -investors does not support that.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Jan 2014 02:10

BijuShet wrote:Friend of BJP who are asking, NaMo to weigh in on this current issue are doing a disservice to NaMo.

I think everyone from Rahul Gandhi to Mulayam to Mayavati to NaMo have issued statements and advising MEA to not budge till DK's dignity is restored.

There was a firstpost report on this and perhaps been posted.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 01 Jan 2014 02:10

Cosmo_R wrote:What would your reaction be if the court throws out the case on the grounds of immunity without ruling on the issue of the charge and no apology from DoS?

Win/win?

If (a big if) Dr. DK was guilty of committing some form of physical abuse and/or threats to harm SR or family, then it is a win-win. Sweeping it under the rug is in the best interest of India and US. I would not be too much concerned about what happens to Dr. DK in that case.

saip · Post by **saip** » 01 Jan 2014 02:11

Since DK's NYC home is not Indian territory, NY wage law would prevail and according to changes in US law, the cost of accomodations etc. cannot be used in wage calculations. If I read correctly, even wages paid to SR's husband in India for services rendered in US by SR would not count towards salary.

If that is true how come maid is exempt from paying taxes (SS tax even if her salary is too low for income tax)?

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 01 Jan 2014 02:16

saip wrote:If that is true how come maid is exempt from paying taxes (SS tax even if her salary is too low for income tax)?

Good point sir...not sure if this will turn screws on SR for NON PAYMENT of taxes or on DK for NOT declaring her salary to INS ...
or NOT running the payroll for that matter...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jan 2014 02:19

none is above the law, and policies respective to each position and country must be followed. it is well known that poodling aspects of many govs to super powers to get things done is another form of international crime. this is where multilateral organizations must fight against super powers.

mistakes here are three sided.. the cause of everything is still hidden from discussions, or even does not merit a discussion to this thread. post actions, and those that affect the relationship however is unavoidable due the nature of both govs behavior.

if India can learn how not to poodle, and at the same time hold none above the law is everyone's wish. i hope that happens.

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 01 Jan 2014 02:20

saip wrote:
Since DK's NYC home is not Indian territory, NY wage law would prevail and according to changes in US law, the cost of accomodations etc. cannot be used in wage calculations. If I read correctly, even wages paid to SR's husband in India for services rendered in US by SR would not count towards salary.
If that is true how come maid is exempt from paying taxes (SS tax even if her salary is too low for income tax)?

Technically, even H1-B visas can be exempt from SS taxes, if the employer chooses to do so. There are quite a few visa types where SS taxes can be avoided ( Religious visas etc. ). The reason being that these are temporary visas and applicants will be returning their respective countries.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Jan 2014 02:22

Mahesh_R wrote:Sir sorry to say but this sounds like a good Hollywood script...

Yes it is just a theory and I don't expect it to be bought by everyone whole sale...just a teeny-weeny parts of it

It can nevertheless be strongly said that Kerrorist has been a huge drain not just to others but US. He has become a huge liability to Obama and his policies. Any other decent human being would have resigned after the disastrous failure in Syrian situation but he continues to do the damage.

Either he is complicit and approved legal rape against Devyani Khobargade who is perhaps his daughter's age or simply incompetent. Either way he lost a huge moral ground and clinging on to minor legalities. If the same legalities are minded by India, the entire US missions may need to be closed down.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Jan 2014 02:24

Amber G. wrote:
ramana wrote: AmberG, most Silicon Valley VC firms have Indian based ventures.
Really? I know there are quite a few but MOST? Any source to claim that way..
(For example http://www.cbinsights.com/blog/trends/t ... -investors does not support that.

He probably meant the big ol' boys of Sand Hill Road, not all the chunnu munnus.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 01 Jan 2014 02:32

saip wrote:
Since DK's NYC home is not Indian territory, NY wage law would prevail and according to changes in US law, the cost of accomodations etc. cannot be used in wage calculations. If I read correctly, even wages paid to SR's husband in India for services rendered in US by SR would not count towards salary.
If that is true how come maid is exempt from paying taxes (SS tax even if her salary is too low for income tax)?

From here : http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10021.pdf

...
If you hire someone to work in your home, such as a cleaning person, a cook, a gardener, or a baby sitter, both you and your employee should know about paying Social Security and Medicare taxes. Your household employee may be eligible for Social Security and Medicare someday — if you deduct Social Security and Medicare taxes from his or her wages, pay the taxes to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and report the wages to the Social Security Administration. When you report those wages and pay the taxes, your employee gets credit toward Social Security benefits and Medicare coverage. This includes retirement (as early as age 62) and disability benefits for the worker and his or her dependents. It also includes survivors benefits for his or her dependents when the worker dies.

What wages must be reported?
If you pay a household worker $1,800 or more in cash wages during 2013, you must deduct Social Security and Medicare taxes and report the wages once a year. This includes reporting any cash you pay to cover the cost of the employee’s transportation, meals or housing. If you do not report the wages on time, you may have to pay a penalty in addition to the overdue taxes.

Are all household workers covered?
When you pay a household worker $1,800 or more in cash wages during the year, the wages are covered by Social Security. However, special rules apply in the following situations. If you run a hotel, rooming house, or boarding house, all wages you pay employees must be reported, even if they are less than $1,800 for the year.

You do not have to pay Social Security taxes for household workers (such as baby sitters) who are younger than age 18, unless household employment is the worker’s primary occupation.
If you hire your children who are 21 or older to perform household work for you, you have to pay Social Security tax on their wages. Household work performed by your parent may require taxes be paid in certain situations. Contact any Social Security office for more information.

...

How your household worker earns credit for Social Security
Household work is credited somewhat differently from other work. Generally, a person earns one credit for each $1,160 of reported earnings (in 2013), up to a maximum of four credits for the year. However, a household worker will earn Social Security credit only for earnings of at least $1,800 from each employer. For example, a household employee who worked for three employers and was paid $900, $1,000 and $1,800 respectively (a total of $3,700) would receive only one Social Security credit with $1,800 posted to his or her Social Security record.

How many credits workers (including household workers) need to qualify for Social Security depends on their age and the kind of benefit they might be eligible to receive. Most people need about 10 years of work (40 credits) to qualify for benefits. Younger people need fewer credits to be eligible for disability benefits or for their family members to be eligible for survivors benefits when they die. Remember, if you do not report the wages for your employee, he or she may not have enough credits to get Social Security benefits, or the amount of the benefit may be less.

I remember reading that DK issued a W2 form to SR for Tax year 2012 as SR had come over in Nov of 2012. Also can assume that an IT return was filed by SR and I would imagine that DK would have deducted Social Security & Medicaid etc from SR's wages.