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The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 28 Nov 2013 03:13

harbans wrote:The problem with Secularism is exactly that it leads to the kind of solutions what Rajesh Ji wrote. A freezing of Sampradaya's. A freezing and possessive attitude to faith. When people start defining and compartmentalizing their faith under Official state policy, it will lead to a divided society. That is what a Dharmic tenet based state seeks to avoid. A Sikh guru writing a version of Ramayana, a Jain enjoying Diwali, a Vishnu bhakt visiting a monastery in Ladhak will never be natural again. IMO that is what will stem Islam/ Xtianity to some extent but that's about it. They will still out grow, out breed. Within a secular setup inevitably the predatory relgion is going to win, whetehr we ban Burkhas and overt religious symbols notwithstanding. JMT

I agree with harbans ji. Legislative remedies can AT BEST only be a stop-gap measure. Only a few waves of a renaissance of Dharma's sacred AND classical culture can change the colour of our society and nationhood.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Nov 2013 03:18

Curbing Religious Proselytization

harbans wrote:The problem with Secularism is exactly that it leads to the kind of solutions what Rajesh Ji wrote. A freezing of Sampradaya's. A freezing and possessive attitude to faith. When people start defining and compartmentalizing their faith under Official state policy, it will lead to a divided society. That is what a Dharmic tenet based state seeks to avoid. A Sikh guru writing a version of Ramayana, a Jain enjoying Diwali, a Vishnu bhakt visiting a monastery in Ladhak will never be natural again. IMO that is what will stem Islam/ Xtianity to some extent but that's about it. They will still out grow, out breed. Within a secular setup inevitably the predatory relgion is going to win, whetehr we ban Burkhas and overt religious symbols notwithstanding. JMT


harbans ji,

I am not quite sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds to me a critique to what I wrote. :)

I think any division in society has to be on the basis of Dharma and Adharma, and that is a mandatory division. Within all Dharma-adhering systems any individual is free to move and explore. There are no curbs or bans on that.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 28 Nov 2013 03:36

I am not quite sure if I understand you correctly, but it sounds to me a critique to what I wrote. :)


Not a critique. What you wrote is inevitably the only logical recourse in the present Secular context. However it ends there. I can assume safely if implemented, there would be freezing of inter-Sampradayic free movement. Yet Islamists will continue to outbreed. It will happen in France which does everything in its power to ban overt religious symbols. Once they outbreed, they will revive the system of their choice Sharia. They will do this wherever they are in some majority. So banning religious conversion is a step, an important one, but it won't stem/ dam the bursting banks. Our society was always inherently pluralist under Dharmic ethos. Never have i seen a Hindu not praying and folding hands in a Jain/ Buddhist/ Sikh place of worship, Buddhist cannons being written by Brahmins, 1st borns becoming Sikh, born in one sampradaya but going and starting another, that freedom to experiment and ultimately choose a Guru of Dvait, advait, Nastik, bhakti, Gyaan whatever that suits one temperament at whatever stage in life freely was always a hallmark of our culture. Circumstances may not allow all to do Gyaan Yoga for example, and it may be more suited for their time and circumstance to do Bhakti..all that choice was always fluid within even families. We lose that once political religions step in. Your differentiation of Faith and Religion hits bang right. Religions that are political can never be given the freedom that pure faith can be given. Secularisms weakness is exactly there..it makes the mistake of equating freedom of faith with freedom of 'political religion'. Dharmic systems guard against that. By force if needed. So no, it's not a critique in that sense.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Nov 2013 04:13

Curbing Religious Proselytization

Agnimitra wrote:I agree with harbans ji. Legislative remedies can AT BEST only be a stop-gap measure. Only a few waves of a renaissance of Dharma's sacred AND classical culture can change the colour of our society and nationhood.


There was a time when I used to see the situation of Bharatiyas as lost. Today I don't see it that way, as solutions have become visible.

Abrahamic religions in India stand on actually very thin ice, unlike many other places, and yes a renaissance would go a long way in hitting the adversary out of the stadium for a six.

I'm not as enthusiastic about Laws and Drafts and Gazettes as some other BRF gurus, but I think in this case a hard clear line would be the right approach.

Organized religion with its transnational support networks is an extremely resourceful and manipulative challenge, and the state would need to give clear guidelines on how to deal with this challenge.

In fact Republic of India has a unique opportunity to justify a constitutional framework which imposes curbs on Religion, but has the ability to still allow adherents of Abrahamic faiths continue to go about prayers.

We have a concrete history of Partition based on Religion (of Islam) being considered a marker of national identity which led to secession by the Muslims to form their own separate country which ended up politically cracking Bharat. This is our history. History is there to learn from. Have we? :(

How can the Indian system continue to chug along without taking cognizance of the reason for its partition and formulating remedies against a repetition. Our leadership to date has not offered any suggestions on how to deal with this. If a partition has taken place already based on religion, what stops it from repeating? After all there is sufficient religious minority population in India.

What one can clearly see that even if one were to see Islam as a faith, it has elements to it, (which I consider fundamental memes) which make it act like a qaum, a nation. This led to the Two-Nation Theory and Partition.

Till now all the Nehruvians have done is to reject it, a rejection based on which India was declared a secular nation and Muslims were allowed to stay as equal citizens. What Nehruvians have failed to do is to provide is a sound basis for the rejection from a Muslim perspective other than Islam's comprehensive claim over whole of India, as happened to be the case with Maulana Azad. Nehruvians have only provided empty rhetoric of righteous anger.

If Nehruvians were more explicit, they would have claimed that Islam has a non-Qaumi Sanskriti-friendly side to it and those Indian Muslims who believed in that were free to stay in India and they did. The corollary of that is that Indian Islam is obligated to expunge all Qaumi memes, thus stop being a religion and become a pure faith.

Has this process been undertaken as yet? No, even though that was the assurance Nehruvians gave. Empty righteous rhetoric cannot replace systematic purge of Qaumi memes out of Islam.

So basically it is a debt that Indian Muslims owe to Bharat as price for their staying back - to purge all aspects of Indian Islam which makes it behave like a separate nation, separate from Bharatiyas.

So this debt can be demanded by the Indian State without having any qualms about freedom of religion, etc.

Now we have to sit together and see what makes Islam into a Qaum and not just a Deen and purge it. This gives Indian State a strong lever to intervene.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 28 Nov 2013 04:58

^^^ RajeshA ji, I agree. It is stunning that after the trauma of partition we are not allowed to publicly discuss the root causes of that clearly, or question identity politics inherent in religion.
------------

Just blogged this from old BRF posts and some stuff added on.

Image

One Being, Many Vectors: Sanity in Politics & Religion

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 28 Nov 2013 15:39

Agnimitra wrote:Just blogged this from old BRF posts and some stuff added on.

Image

One Being, Many Vectors: Sanity in Politics & Religion


Agnimitra ji,

very thought-provoking write up. Since I agree with almost all of it, if I may proffer a different terminology ...

The set of political philosophies claiming affiliation with the Veda has come to be called Hindutva in the current day and age.


Though it sounds good to describe "Hindutva" in this way, I personally use the term "Raj Dharma" to denote the political philosophies affiliated with Dharma or even Veda.

I see "Hindutva" as a political movement to return Bharat to the Dharmic order under Bharatiyas, those pledged to upholding Bharatiya Sabhyata and Raj Dharma! Though Hindutva like every other system or ideology is bound by Dharma too, its focus lies not on principles of governance as is the case with Raj Dharma but on attaining and consolidating power so that Raj Dharma can again be applied.

In other words, one could say
- Raj Dharma is political philosophy when Bharat is sovereign, while Hindutva is political philosophy when Bharat is subjugated,
- Raj Dharma is political philosophy in peace times, while Hindutva is political philosophy during war and struggle.

JMTs

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 29 Nov 2013 21:05

Hindutva viz-a-viz Raj Dharma

What is interesting is that Hindutva has found out that the civilizational awareness among Bharatiyas has degenerated, simply because the Nehruvian Secularism system put in place in India has

  1. been able to increase the conversion out of Bharatiyata into Islam and Christianity, which would instinctively resist Hindutva,

  2. been able to increase the divisions among the Hindus using Jāti identity, Reservation politics, Dravidian politics, Divide and Rule Electoral politics, Scarcity-based social competition, etc.

  3. been able to buy vote-banks through populist politics

  4. been able to control the national narrative using a non-Indic focus on education, media and NGO space, and thus lull the Bharatiyas into thinking that their civilization is either non-existent, and if existent not threatened, or been able to divert the attention of Bharatiyas through other localized issues.

Narendra Modi also sees emphasis on Hindutva as insufficient as a program to win back power for Hindutva. Hence he has shifted focus on Raj Dharma, substantial part of which is delivery of Nyaya (justice), Surāj (governance) and Vikās (development).

So Raj Dharma has now become not only the aim of Hindutva but part of it has also become the strategy of Hindutva.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 29 Nov 2013 21:31

Hindutva viz-a-viz Raj Dharma

The current political thinking in India too has changed. There is a general awareness of failure of government and even system in terms of meeting the aspirations of people. Moreover the people have seen a comprehensive lack of leadership among all the political players in the country. So people have moved to a different strategy of rectifying the system, and that strategy is Trickle Down Leadership.

Trickle Down Leadership requires the following:

  1. The leader on top should be 24 carat gold as far as will to implement Raj Dharma is concerned
  2. The leader should have proven the ability to infuse and drive the system with his will and nurture this leadership form across the system
  3. The leader should be provided with the political mandate and thus freedom to impose his will on the system

The system can be changed only if these conditions can be met. This is the current thinking and thus one sees a huge wave of support for Narendra Modi, CM of Gujarat.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 29 Nov 2013 21:44

RajeshA wrote:I see "Hindutva" as a political movement to return Bharat to the Dharmic order under Bharatiyas, those pledged to upholding Bharatiya Sabhyata and Raj Dharma! Though Hindutva like every other system or ideology is bound by Dharma too, its focus lies not on principles of governance as is the case with Raj Dharma but on attaining and consolidating power so that Raj Dharma can again be applied.

RajeshA ji, got it. I added an insert with a link to these BRF posts.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 29 Nov 2013 23:43

Trickle Down Leadership

People invest a lot of hope and support in "Trickle Down Leadership" agenda of political change. This is what changes the electoral battle from one from parliamentary form to a presidential form, as the top candidate becomes the sole focus of emotional investment and narrative.

The main issue in Lok Sabha Elections 2014 would thus be the top candidate, Narendra Modi himself, and nothing more.

There is no Ram Janambhumi Movement or some particular issue which has captured the imagination of people. People would not be voting on any particular civilizational issue or single national security issue. It is going to be an election revolving around just one issue, one person and that is Narendra Modi.

This has happened because Indian people have opted for the Trickle Down Leadership strategy to rebuild their nation.

So even though the focus of political attention is Narendra Modi, it helps to understand the Narendra Modi phenomenon in an agent independent fashion, i.e. Trickle Down Leadership.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby chetak » 06 Dec 2013 19:23

They still need some help.....


A thank u to all our donors… A note about politicians…and loans…


Posted on August 7, 2013 by François Gautier |

As the photos (https://www.facebook.com/francoisgautie ... tos_stream) show, the Shivaji Maharaj Museum of Indian History is developing, and the inauguration of 2d phase with HH the Dalai Lama was a big success, thanks to the support of many of you. I cannot here thank all those who made small donations – 1000 rs, 2000 Rs, 5000 rs, 10.000 Rs – but they should know that this Museum is built with such small donations and that it makes it a Museum OF THE PEOPLE. In the last five months, we needed appr 43 LAKHS for finishing the two Tibetan history/genocide buildings, printing the exhibitions and for the expenses of the inauguration. I would like here to thank publicly our major donors:

Abhay Sapru of Delhi, who gave 6 lakhs
Dr Vaidyasubramaniam: 5 lakhs (thanks to Mr Gurumurthy)
Dhiraj Shah: 5 lakhs
Mr Chandak, who raised 2 lakhs
Dinesh Himatsingar: 2 lakhs
Bharat Welfare Trust: 1 ,5 lakhs
Vadde Srinivas: 1 lakh
Raghuvir Aiyar: 1 lakh
Brij Mohan Thapar: 1 lakh
Prafulla Goradia: 1 lakh
Arvind Sitaraman: 1 lakh
Sadashiva & Pune friends: 1 lakh
Sowmini Ramesh: 50.000
Pankaj Sharma: 75.000
Mr Habbu: 25.000 Rs
Dr Raj Gandhi who gave 3000$
Amitabh Sharma from Atlanta and his friends: 2000 $
Various US donors, via FACT USA & Utsav Chakrabarty 7000$
TOTAL/ 36 LAKHS

Thus we were left, in spite of your generosity with nearly 7 lakhs minus. My wife and I then decided to seek a 5 lakhs loan from our trust bank, HDFC. As banks do not loan to Museums (highly suspicious), they very reluctantly agreed to give it on the guarantee of my wife’s salary, as nearly my whole time is dedicated to the Museum and I have no income apart from my books. And we are still minus 2 lakhs that we need to find somewhere, as bills of inauguration have to be paid + start reimbursing the loan.

Thus we appeal once again to your generosity: this is a noble, but extremely difficult project where we encounter hurdles at every step. FACT is a registered trust and we have tax exemption. You can wire electronically your donations to

: Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism (FACT)
Account No: 04071450000237. IFCS code: HDFC0000407
Bank Address: HDFC Bank Ltd., T S No.6, 100 Feet Road
Ellaipillaichavadi, Pondicherry-605 005. Telephone: 0413 2206044
Fax : 0413 2200662


PS.S. One of the difficulties of this project is raising money : as soon as the word

« Museum of Indian History » is mentioned (and that by a Frenchman), one can see the smiles of the potential donors vanishing. I have spent the last two years traveling the length and breadth of India to meet donors, who in the end politely refuse. Here are some of the big names for your info :
Swami Ramdev, whom I went to see in his Haridwar ashram. He said that he would send his Pune representative to see the project. Never happened.
Sanjay Kirloskar. Was recommended to him by Narendra Modi. Met Sanjay two times and in the end he said that his trust only gives to education and health (as if a Museum is not education)!
Subhash Chandra, owner of Z TV. Went to meet him when he was in Bangalore 1 years ago, Said he would come and see the Museum. Never came.
Avinash Bhosale, the richest man in Pune. Was recommended to him by Nitin Gadkari and Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. Never gave a paisa.
Nitin Gadkari, gave some BJP money when he was President, which helped us do the shrine, then came for the inauguration of 2st phase and saw the good work. Never gave anything out of his pocket after that.
Rajnath Singh. Met him in Delhi six months ago with his aide Sudhanshu Trivedi. Mr Singh pledged he would help. Nothing ever came in spite of my repeated requests.
Meenakshi Lekhi, spokesperson of the BJP, said she would help with her friends, just before I had to take a loan. Not news so far…
LK Advani, whom I have supported in the last 30 years, the only foreign journalist to dare to do so (and it has cost me, as I am often labelled as a ‘saffron’ journalist). Acted on the phone as if I was asking him a bribe (maybe because of the taps?).
Sashi Ruia of Essar. Was recommended by Narendra Modi, but never able to get through to him.
Hanuman Gaikwad, one of the richest men in Pune who came for inauguration first phase. Never gave anything
Shri Uddhav & Aditya Thackeray came for the 2d phase inauguration a week ago and in his speech, Mr Thackeray said he would do all in his power to help this ‘beautiful’ project. Let us see..

None of the politicians and their wives who came to our Museum ever raised a little finger to help…
The list is long, but I wont bore you anymore
Just to say that this does not discourage me
Best
Francois gautier

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 06 Dec 2013 19:28

chetak ji, Thanks for posting. I will pass it around in my limited circle and I will help.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby chetak » 06 Dec 2013 19:51

venug wrote:chetak ji, Thanks for posting. I will pass it around in my limited circle and I will help.


Thank you, Sir.

This is a deserving cause.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 12 Dec 2013 00:18

LGBT and Dharmic perspective:

I was thinking about the rights of LGBT in Bharatiya perspective. I would like to get a better understanding about what Sanatana Dharma says about LGBT rights.
From what I understand(of course, it could be wrong or skewed and I would like to understand better) is that SD is based on Varnaasharama. A Dharmic goes through 4 stages or phases of life. He is indebted to his father among others like his guru and rishis and has to strive to pay off the debt. A male offspring pays off his Runa to his father through the continuation of his family. In the case of a female offspring she does so by improving the family of the house she gets married into. Now I was told that SD is more lenient towards LGBT community. I also remember the story of Shikkandi, and what prominent role Shikkandi had played in MB. But given that SD is strict about varnaasharma system, I was wondering how is that SD is flexible and yet it demands that one propagates one's family through a wed lock.

Now in case of LGBT community, this pitru-runa remains unfulfilled, which will impede in moksha-sadhana. Looks like SD too against LGBT. I feel SD too is strict about what marriage constitutes, the importance of straight relationships? can anyone please throw more light on this?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prasad » 12 Dec 2013 00:25

Propogating ones family lines does not imply you have to marry a girl (if you're man) or a guy (if you're a woman). Simple no? The adi parva of the mahabharata has a story of an ascetic who chooses a life of celibacy. His ancestors tell him that without progeny they are doomed for eternity. To do his duty, he fathers a son in due course and then returns to his celibate life without living the rest of his life with his wife. Also, varnashrama isn't a ridig framework that everyone has to follow. Various munis and saints went from brahmacharya directly to sanyasa. It was pretty flexible. Today, one can draw whatever inspiation one wants of course.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 12 Dec 2013 00:43

Prasad garu, thank you. But isn't there also a story in MB about a rishi (I apologize I am very bad at names) who remains unmarried and is told that because he remained unmarried, his forefathers are in limbo and are destined to fall to nether worlds unless he marries to beget progeny? I will try to fish out the names and exact story. Celibacy is for thus gone ones who have realized themselves and is not the way prescribed for ordinary mortals? can we compete with the likes of rishis who are great tapavis and take their examples to define == with our own lives?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prasad » 12 Dec 2013 00:48

I think we're talking of the same story :) As for the latter question, I have no idea. Do what you want no?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 12 Dec 2013 01:04

:) Yes I think we are. Not marrying at all or not begetting progeny otherwise does little to pay off pitru-runa in the case of LGBT community. In their case, neither celibacy nor sanyasa are the reasons for their inability to beget progeny *through a wedlock*. Because marriage alone makes kaama dharmic. I am curious to know if SD sends them to hell like Bible and Quran.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 12 Dec 2013 02:02

LGBT and Dharmic perspective

venug wrote:I was thinking about the rights of LGBT in Bharatiya perspective. I would like to get a better understanding about what Sanatana Dharma says about LGBT rights.


Here is the Wikipedia article on the issue: LGBT themes in Hindu mythology.

1. Those of us who believe in Ātman, see it as without any gender. And as we take birth and rebirth we may change bodies which may have different genders. So even though we have a gender-specific consciousness, we shouldn't be fanatic about it.

2. My personal sense says there is absolutely nothing Adharmic in any same-sex unions or sex-changes. It is for the individual to decide it for himself. I must say I did not think like this like this till a few years ago despite much Western exposure.

3. LGBT people should not be scorned at should one become aware that one is such. One should respect his individuality and individual decisions.

4. If LGBT people exist, then it cannot be totally against nature unless one sees nature as serving solely social stability. However statistically speaking nature has given majority to heterosexual sexual orientation, which does make sense. One could make the case that nature foresees homosexuality in order to have a buffer in a population for times when gender-wise population ratio gets skewed in one direction due to natural or unnatural causes. This allows for a rise in homosexuality among the majority gender and thus preserves the social harmony.

5. The other issue is whether civil unions between individuals of the same gender should be entertained. This has to do with issues of taxation, inheritance, judicial responsibility, ownership, visiting rights, etc. There is no reason to deny this to them, however care should be taken that it is not abused, especially not say for immigration purposes.

6. The issue is however whether a lifestyle is productive and acceptable for the society at large. The downside is that people like to ape other people whom they find culturally and socially upward mobile, hip and cool. So would an LGBT lifestyle as is seen in the West be so impressionable on the children and young minds that instead of following their natural instincts of heterosexuality, instead they strive for an LGBT lifestyle? An open public LGBT lifestyle could jeopardize the cultural sensitivities of the broader society. But an LGBT lifestyle in a closed LGBT community cannot be considered harmful to society at large, and LGBT community should be allowed to pursue it among themselves.

7. There are a few models for begetting children available to LGBT people. Sperm donation, surrogate motherhood, adoption of children related by blood, etc. are some options. However adoption of children by LGBT people is something that the society would have to weigh in. This could expose the child to an LGBT lifestyle which may be considered by society as less than psychologically healthy for the child.

8. So I would say
  1. Yes to decriminalizing homosexuality and LGBT. Yes to freedom of sexuality, sexual orientation and association.

  2. Yes to civil unions for gays and lesbians.

  3. Yes to respect for LGBT individuals.

  4. Yes to educating society about existence of LGBT community and health issues.

  5. No to public display of LGBT promiscuity and LGBT-specific lifestyle. In closed and private groups allowed.

There would of course be different opinions on this.

Link to blog post
Last edited by RajeshA on 12 Dec 2013 02:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 12 Dec 2013 02:45

2. My personal sense says there is absolutely nothing Adharmic in any same-sex unions or sex-changes. It is for the individual to decide it for himself. I must say I did not think like this like this till a few years ago despite much Western exposure.

Rajesh garu, thank you. I personally do agree with most of the points you mentioned. But I am trying to think in terms of SD perspective what is prescribed and what is proscribed and hence falls in the realm of adharmic Vedic injunction. Dharma and adharma is as per the veda pramaana. If we are to set aside our personal way of seeing things, we then have to define what marriage is wrt to SD definition, as marriage alone makes kaama dharmic. Since we aspire to be a dharmic nation which takes inspiration from veda pramaana, and if Vedas consider such a union not kosher, what then?

The ways of the Gods is too complex and context based and may or may not be the one prescribed for mortals. So not sure if the examples in the puranas are any good to consider as examples by which to lead a life or to take as basis.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 12 Dec 2013 09:47

RajeshA ji, great post.

Sexuality and even gender identity is a continuum, not merely a polarity of male-female. This is true even biologically within one individual's composite body of all types of cells, irrespective of the body's aggregate gender. The fact that sexuality is a continuum with many 'overlapping' areas even in 'mainstream' society can be seen with classifications of sexual preferences such as "gynandrophilia" (attraction for transsexuals), etc. Statistically, it has been noted to emerge as an increasingly preferred customer choice in escort services, p0rnography, etc. In Hinduism we even have the corresponding ardha-nareeshwara deity form.

Atman is definitely asexual - or rather pan-sexual. Also, as part of a process of self-discovery, there appears to be a phase of homo-eroticism - developing a sort of admiration - or at least a level of intimate comfort - for the body of the same gender as one's current biological mortal coil. In some dharmic systems, this phase, like many other phases, seem to be projected on the ishta devata. E.g., there are detailed descriptions of the spiritual body, including all private parts, of chosen deities, both male and female. These do not seem to be meant for the meditations of the opposite sex only, though of course these are not lustful flights either. But they do indicate a 'transmutation' of eros and its perspective.

Law (prescription and proscription) should set the contours for spiritual life within a particular society. Criminalization of homosexuality is not right. In India, homosexuality is conflated with pedophilia and bestiality because a lot of homosexual conditioning happens in such contexts as the systematic rape of street children, as a form of abuse and gang dynamics, turning into a cycle of the abused becoming the abuser. Promiscuity also may be a problem with homosexuals, but that is also related to their lack of status in society. The law should promote fidelity and discourage promiscuity and abuse. Criminalizing homosexuality serves no purpose whatsoever. However, IMHO a debate could be had on whether same-sex couples can be "married" in the same cultural space as regular couples, or whether it should be differentiated for cultural purposes (if not legal).

In some ancient societies they actually took the opposite stance of elevating the status of people with mixed gender identities, etc. For example, in Wahaca (Mexico), even today the old tradition persists, that if one offspring happens to be 'transsexual', he/she wears distinguishing jewelry and inherits the entire family property - and then may choose to re-distribute it one way or another. Etc. I guess the purpose behind such traditions must have been to uphold such minority cases of "freaks" of nature so that the mango man/woman can wonder about the common fixed conceptions around identities, and also to induce a sense of spiritual responsibility as an antidote to a vicious spiral of promiscuity or persecution.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 12 Dec 2013 17:33

1. Those of us who believe in Ātman, see it as without any gender. And as we take birth and rebirth we may change bodies which may have different genders. So even though we have a gender-specific consciousness, we shouldn't be fanatic about it.


RajeshA ji, I think this is well put. Thank you.

AgniMitra ji, I think your explaination wrt to continuum is similar to Buddhist thought that the aggregate is not the real self, and at the particular level, gender distinction disappears or is meaningless.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 12 Dec 2013 22:06

LGBT and Dharmic perspective

Agnimitra ji, venug ji,

There are Hindu leaders who despite being some of the more intelligent types have fallen for an old trick of left-liberals, and that is to paint themselves as intolerant by speaking against some community defined by some behavioral attribute, in this case sexual orientation. And they have let know of their prejudices on social media.

In order to compete with the Islamic Momeen and Western Macho, many Hindus are willing to equate them with Vīrya, the Bharatiya manhood ideal, and thus position Vīrya too as contrary to tolerance for LGBT, for fear of Hindu man getting smeared by femininity or homoeroticism and thus weakness viz-a-viz another man, one possibly of an inimical persuasion.

This is a foolish fear and we should rise above it.

My blog post!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 21 Dec 2013 19:41

Sad that Yashwant sinha even suggested that LGBT staff of the US Consulates in India be arrested. Probably thought it was a two-in-one gimmick on the Sc verdict and the diplomatic spat with the US.

I blogged this:

Image

Brahma's Blessed Arse: A Hindutva view of LGBT issues

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 21 Dec 2013 19:48

Agnimitra wrote:Sad that Yashwant sinha even suggested that LGBT staff of the US Consulates in India be arrested. Probably thought it was a two-in-one gimmick on the Sc verdict and the diplomatic spat with the US.


Actually Yashwant Sinha's logic is faultless. He says that if US can pluck out some mundane US-specific law and make life hell for an Indian consular officer, then why can't India not do the same. After all Section 377 of IPC is a law in India, and it can just as well be applied on US Embassy officials.

He is not making any statement really on whether Section 377 is justified or not. He is merely stating a matter of fact that it is a law, and one can use the particular law to do cavity searches of US Embassy officials as well.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 21 Dec 2013 20:10

True. But by picking that particular issue - which was very hot at the time - and joining it with the diplomatic spat, a lot of commentary was not so admiring of his logic as it was scathing about his callous use of this issue as an example.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby chetak » 21 Dec 2013 20:14

Agnimitra wrote:True. But by picking that particular issue - which was very hot at the time - and joining it with the diplomatic spat, a lot of commentary was not so admiring of his logic as it was about his callous use of this law as an example.


The BJP morons should keep quiet or at best be non committal on 377.

Don't need "intellectuals" to game this.

Lots of LGBT folks are going to be voting with their feet.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 21 Dec 2013 20:17

chetak ji, not just LGBT folks, but for each urban LGBT, there will be many of his/her urban, "liberal" friends who would protectively also vote with their feet.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby chetak » 21 Dec 2013 20:21

Agnimitra wrote:chetak ji, not just LGBT folks, but for each urban LGBT, there will be many of his/her urban, "liberal" friends who would protectively also vote with their feet.


Very true, Saar.

The dumb shits need all the votes that they can get without pissing off large sections on totally unrelated matters.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Jarita » 23 Dec 2013 10:26

A completely different topic but it belongs here.
I am spending time with the more traditional members of my family and in awe of the womenfolk. They don't make women like this anymore or perhaps train them in Bharatiya ethos. These women are able to multitask - handle superb cooking, manage the kids, take care of the needs of each family member, serve as a repository of traditional medical knowledge and retain the religious traditions all with a calm demeanor and balance.
Due to both the diminishment of role of a housewife and the inequality they faced from menfolk, the art and science of being a traditional Indian housewife is gone. I look around in my generation and don't see any.
This in my opinion is the biggest factors driving the decline of Bharat and the overall decline of happiness and contentment. The glue that keeps the family together and sustains tradition has disappeared both due social reengineering and the treatment meted out by society to women.
I see these traditional women and it really disturbs me that these engines of their families and indeed engines of a balanced society feel somewhat inferior because their husbands hold the pursestrings. An example that never ceases to intrigue me is why women eat after men. For a society to have healthy progeny and for civilization to be healthy the woman should eat well. Don't our people understand this?
If we need Bharatiya society to be restored the traditional Indian housewife (the one trained in tradition and the art and science of managing a household) has to be held at the same level of esteem as a working woman and given tremendous respect and recognition from society.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 08 Jan 2014 21:32

Punishment for Anti-National Activism

Published on Jan 08, 2014
AAP HQ Vandalised by Hindu Raksha Dal, 13 Held: Outlook

SwamyG wrote:
Atri wrote:Whatever Bhushan fellow said, deserves to be smacked hard. So BJP who ever has done it, you will be blamed for it. Up the tempo and use this to your benefit. Do not be a whimpering babu crying foul.

Wrong. In a society governed by laws, at least attempting to be one such society, people cannot go smacking others because of offensive language or unacceptable ideas. Vandalism and physical intimidation should not be a tool to advance ones agenda. BJP can be aggressive about its agenda without siding with hooligans.


Of course this is also an issue of level of anti-national activity. If the activity is providing any material or logistical help to forces inimical to the nation, forces which use violence against the nation, then of course, State laws can be brought into force, and the concerned anti-national individual or group can be sentenced by law accordingly.

But what about those people who expound anti-national thinking among masses, who advocate a certain line of policy which is clearly seen as one weakening the nation? What should we do about them? Should they be allowed to go unpunished, they having cited their freedom of expression, freedom of speech?

The thing is they are indeed given this freedom of thought and expression by both Constitution and Dharma. This is how I too would see Dharma.

So what can be done?

How can one allow a citizen the right to freedom of expression and speech thus giving him permission to malign and undermine the nation, and still look after nation's interests?

If the nation is a household, then the anti-national activist can be seen as the garbage belonging to the house. The garbage left alone, accumulates, attracts flies and spreads disease. This garbage needs to be deposed. So we can burn the garbage in the house, but then it spreads only the stink and there is a fire-hazard as well. Giving capital punishment or imprisonment to anti-national activists similarly would weaken the foundations of the state as the state may look excessively severe and may make martyrs of such elements.

Garbage can be disposed simply by throwing it out of the house. Anti-national activists too should similarly be thrown out of the country.

If an Indian cannot show respect and reverence to the nation, the nation need not nurture the "Indian" either. The nation can also deny to the anti-national individual all that it gives in form of nurturing him - food, water, air, ground, social acceptance. This can be done by deporting the individual from the country.

But who would embrace our garbage?

Perhaps we have to secure a garbage dump outside the country, or we have to sell our garbage! Important is that the anti-national activist be shown the door! He simply loses the right to be nurtured by Bharat Mata!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby svinayak » 08 Jan 2014 22:28

This is classic bait.
In political sociology the extreme are deliberately taken to provoke the other side and create a political divide which keeps increasing in the nation. Then this is exploited by the ruling class and the elite to control the masses.
India with a large population with a moderate national view is being deliberately divided politically with leftist and commie anti national view. But India is not budging. Even during 1947 and peak of K militancy this was not created.

Uncle exploited it to create a political space for Kashmir for many decades since it was getting paid by the TSP and K supporters. It did not know that India is deeply connected to Jammu and Kashmir region. They have tried to do social engineering on the Indian opinion on the Kashmir region, Kashmir problem and create sympathy for the Kashmir separatists. These political outfits like AAP are the incarnation of that social engineering who have no home and have become orphans.

When they have no home nationalism looks strange to them. They will vanish from the Indian politics in a few decades

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 12 Jan 2014 16:20

There is a new political churning in Indian politics, and the ideological leanings of those involved should be looked at a bit more closely and critically.

Image

Dr. Kumar Vishvas is considered "right leaning" in some circles. However the following video sheds more light onto his credentials as a voice of Hindus



The gentleman poet is seen here insulting Lord Shiva.

So if the man considered as one attached to Bharatiya Sanskriti is himself pouring scorn onto it, how can one have faith in this movement as a representative of Bharatiya Sabhyata.

More and more it is being realized that Aam Aadmi Party is an extremely anti-Hindutva platform which is going to act as a magnet for all those forces in India which follow the agenda of other civilizational establishments and would wish to bury Bharatiya Sabhyata as deep in the ground as possible.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 13 Jan 2014 02:13


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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Lilo » 13 Jan 2014 16:53

On human relationships, Padma Subrahmanyam Oped in Al-Hundi


At the end of the 150th anniversary celebrations of Swami Vivekananda, dancer Padma Subrahmanyam asks Indian women to take a cue from the monk and redefine their agenda not only for themselves, but also for the entire world

The contemporary discourse credits the modern world exclusively with improving the status of women. But thousands of years ago, Indian women had enjoyed high status. Gargi, Maitreyi and other women of Vedic lore illustrate the high status Indian women enjoyed in ancient times. The Gargi tradition in Vedic times was no exception as Avvaiyar of the Tamil Sangam period would testify. Several Vedic rishis were women. The tradition of “Brahmavadinis”, women celibates pursuing intellectual studies for life, existed in ancient India. Though less universal, the women intellectual stream did not dry up with Gargi and Avvaiyar but continued with the Karaikkal Ammaiyars, Andals, Akka Mahadevis, Meeras. Indian women, who have played a big role in moulding our culture, civilisation, arts, religion, have also handled statecraft from the time of Draupadi to Chola Royal women, from Rani Padmini, Rani Jhansi and many others, to Indira Gandhi — something which no other society in the world can possibly boast. That is why I could proudly present my dance programme “Stree Kavi Ratna”, based on literature, from Gargi to Meera, at the World Spiritual Women’s Conference organised by the United Nations in Geneva in 2002.

Feminist scholars abroad, not Indians, have recently begun studying how traditions have enabled women in India to participate in the public domain, contrary to the traditions in the West. Jane Freedman hypothesised that the Western political culture, drawn from its traditions ,which does not offer women any positive model of female power, excluded women from the political field. Taking the hypothesis further, in her essay “The Hindu Goddess and Women’s Political Representation in South Asia: Symbolic Resource or Feminine Mystique?”, Stephanie Tawa Lama studied the impact of the Hindu Goddess — a uniquely popular, positive figure of feminine power — on the political role of women in India.

Observing that the Indian freedom movement was driven by the symbol of Mother India and devotion to her in the song ‘Vande Mataram’, which singularly inspired the freedom fighters to undertake high sacrifices, she underscored the subterranean influence of feminine power in Indian political life. She connected it to how Indira Gandhi, who became the Prime Minister of India in 1966, was compared to Goddess Durga when she won the 1971 War and how Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Jayalalithaa was portrayed as ‘Mahishasuramardini’ (slayer of the demon Mahisha).

Ms. Tawa Lama says that in the West, tradition, which had classified women as the weaker sex, influenced the modern Western politics with their prejudice. But India’s was a contrast. In 1959, the Swiss had denied voting rights to their women in the national referendum. But in 1963 Uttar Pradesh, India’s largest State which had less than a third of its women literate at the time, had no difficulty in electing Sucheta Kripalani as its Chief Minister.

Gender hostility

Finally, the Swiss women got voting rights in 1972 — after Indira Gandhi had already ruled India for a full six years as its most powerful Prime Minister! American women got franchise rights only in 1924 and the British women two years later, centuries after the exclusively masculine British democracy came into being. Thus, gender conflicts inhered in the Western traditions. But such gender hostility has no philosophic source or traditional roots in India.

In India, from ancient times, Female Divinity has equated women with power. And, God as confluence of man and woman (Ardhanareeswara) symbolised gender harmony. The ultimate Reality [Brahman] which transcended all forms — man, woman and all species — is gender-neutral. But unfortunately, contemporary Indian women intellectualism does not internalise these profound ideas. It tends to copy the Western thoughts that have no philosophic or social comparability or compatibility with the Indian.

Indian traditions have struggled to foster a higher sense of respect for women. Therefore, the grammar of gender relations in India is universal respect for women. This automatically implied unasserted but well-recognised rights. Therefore, despite all the intellectual confusion and conflict, Indian Womanhood practices have preserved the uniqueness of Indian women and respect for them. The paradigm of respect for women in India transcended and avoided the conflict-prone gender rights paradigm. But the Western women, denied respect by tradition, repeatedly rebelled and fought for rights. This has resulted in the modern paradigm of rights without a sense of filial duties in the West and caused social disorientation. Here is its fallout: over 42% of the babies in the United States, 47% in the United Kingdom and almost 60% in Scandinavia are born to unwed mothers; almost half of them teenagers; more than half the marriages end in divorce in 10 years, as do two-thirds of the second and three-fourths of the third marriages; most families are run by a single parent.

Paradox of freedom

The ‘rights sans traditional duties’ paradigm scuttled the family system. But has freeing women from families made women happy? A 2009 study concluded that after three decades of feminism and development, women of Europe and the U.S. are less happy now than before and men, incidentally, are more happy than they were.

In the West, mental illnesses are on the rise among men, women and children. Way back in 1952, when my father, Director K. Subrahmanyam was honoured by the Hollywood Film Directors Guild in the U.S., the press asked him: “Why India does not have enough psychiatrists”? Pat came the reply that the joint family system had kept Indian society sane. The Dharma Sastra or Thirukkural or any other ancient text is unanimous on the householder’s responsibility to elders, the infirm, the unemployed and even unsupported strangers. But in the U.S., with the traditional families collapsing, their whole burden has fallen on the government.

According to economist and columnist S. Gurumurthy, the present social security cost of care of elders, infirm and unemployed is estimated at over six times the GDP of the U.S. — a totally unsustainable situation. He says that this has led to the corporatisation of the family kitchen and government takeover of parental obligations — as the U.S. National Bureau of Economic Research warned in 1980. India’s cultural and spiritual values stabilise the national economy. The Indian value system, which constitutes the country’s culturally-devised social security system is the result of the carefully-nurtured continuum of Indian womanhood. This is the biggest Indian intellectual and cultural idea for export to the West. Time has come for India to introspect on what it needs to import from the West and what it need not. Here comes the relevance of Swami Vivekananda...


http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/g ... ?css=print

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 13 Jan 2014 20:58

A quote from a wise man:

Secularism is the non-religious Burqa for Abrahamic Imperialism.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jan 2014 03:15

The World in a Matrix

Here is food for thought for Matrix fans. How would we map various civilizational powers to the Matrix model. Here is my suggestion.

  • Free Humans = Dharmics, Bharatiyas

  • Machines = West

  • Agent Smith = Islam

And if true, that is one heck of a proposition from the Bharatiyas to the West.

Disclaimer: it is merely a model, not an indictment.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby kmkraoind » 14 Jan 2014 19:41

I have a question to gurus here. Even if we start Hindu missionary activities, it will not a problem for 1st generation converts to reconvert back to Dharmic fold and they will retain their old identity (caste) and they can mingle with rest of society (like marriages, etc), but what about converts for others. How to convince them that Hindu society accepts them as their own. They will be severe identity questions for reconverts in social life like marriages etc. Any solutions?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jan 2014 20:46

kmkraoind ji,

Varna is a sort of virtual identity which got attached to various Jātis, but in fact it is independent of it, as per the scriptures.

So basically it is an issue of converts to Abrahamic religions rediscovering their Jāti roots. Most are aware of these roots. For "Arzals", i.e. Pasmanda Muslims, "Ajlafs" like Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars, or for "supremacist Ajlafs" like Pathans, it should not be such a big problem rediscovering their Jātis.

"Ashrafs" however cannot be mapped to any Indian Jātis, and hence they will remain the "Ashraf" Jāti, but the Ashrafism needs to removed from their psychology.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_20317 » 14 Jan 2014 22:26

I did not want to post here unless I had something to say for real.

But why must missionary activities by Hindus even be considered. Would we not want a healthy Muslim or Christian who can act in life to take control of his Abrahmism, instead of being lead into one diversion from another. Have we not seen our own loose character Hindus who are more than willing to do the foreigner's bidding? Does it even need to be pointed out how from within Hindus we as a civilization have been betrayed for reasons as silly as ego trips and chindi chori? I would rather prefer an Abrahamic who allows his own self to shine through with a certainty of a Purush handling with skill his own identity that he got from his parents. Just the way preferring ones parents over ones grandparents is meaningless, in much the same way it is only meaningless meandering to have it the other way round.

From a slightly different perspective of uncertainty. How would a Hindu missionary ensure (or even attempt to, without actually ensuring it) that a shuddified Abrahamic does not turn into a worthless hindu.

I would rather believe that a new mission to tear off our Abrahmics from those outside and to put them on the highway to redefining their 'Own Abrahmism' has to be started on the touchstone of Nationalism. A journey based on the inherent dharmic core that every person already is bound by. This seems difficult. Right? Well lets see. Lets see something else first in another direction to be able to draw analogies. Why do we believe that in the wider world, a proportionately & justifiably big role for India, is something desirable. Do we have a reason for holding on to that belief. Or is it only something that we merely wish for, but have no shradha in. The way most of us wish good morning every morning.

Good morning mate! now just leave me so I can get back to punching the keyboard.

No that is not the case. For most on BRF that is not something that we merely wish for. Well at least I can speak for myself and there is simply no moment my mind is not pre-occupied scheming this or that for what I believe is the core of our civilization. I admit I may be unskilled or overly emotional or just inattentive. Well big deal, I will learn to refocus. But no this momentary loss focus is not my only real self. Likewise for others on BRF or on the outside, I would say. Hein ji. Man has an inherent ability to draw yog between this moment and the next. This ability underpins his ability to live creating in the process a distinction between life & death. A man is alive only till the time he allows the larger world to function through him willfully. As he beings to obstruct he falls ill and as he gets himself cut off he dies till the time he gets his subsequent chance in the next cycle.

But to allow this rationale to come through and explain why missionary activity is merely the old dead horse, we need to first reassess where we would want the purush to be. Within ourselves or on to some mahima/projection of the man. All religions, all theories, all platitudes, are merely put-ons. Some are better evolved some are less evolved along an evolution highway dictated by the man. Some even are just plain confused. But it is the man who learns, who registers the accretion in value. So does a civilization as long as the man and civilization are not acting at cross purpose. Religions & theories merely gain numbers/headcounts, till the headcount breaks off due to the presence of the new truth on the table.

In this I see a very simple way forwards. Assertion and doing it. Merely wishing for counter-conversions is not long lasting (or even fruitful). Simple reason - an increase in headcount in arithmetic progression would never measure up to the much faster rise in desires to see the fruits of this increase in headcounts. Instead of putting energy in converting people we should be putting energy in redefining and forcing a reassessment of the mahima. We got to learn the truth and its nature from the scientists. At the same time learn the play of emotions and theorizing from actors, politicians, hagiographers, advocacy groups. Develop our own truth, share it with the like minded to the extent reasonable, while at the same time waylaying those who oppose this exercise. Asserting and working on your assertion forces the 'other' to either fall in line. Also forces the 'other' to fall out of the line which is when you can shoot the sorry sob. In the process you can end up killing some people and saving some others. I am ok with that so long as the net remaining in this world is not a weak spineless convert (whether from Hinduism to Abrahamism or in the reverse direction). So long as the net remaining in this world is something that can live as part of this world in a balanced manner.

...................

RajeshA ji, request you not to bring AAP into this thread. AAP is a party for sale, full of spies and knaves. There is no reason why BJP cannot buy it, would we then defend it? This momentary politics cannot provide the basis for something important. Politics has to play a part (6 months in a 5 year cycle) and that is it. Not being whole (in AAP's case not even a genuine standpoint), bringing a fake entity like AAP here would deviate this thread. Bharatiyata is a function of Desh and Dharm not of the accumulated learning of different forms of lies.


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