Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Kakarat » 12 Jan 2014 18:45

'Yudh Abhyas 2014' to counter terrorism: US army to train with Indian soldiers

...
The two countries will conduct their biggest ever joint military exercise – called Yudh Abhyas- between May-June this year. Incidentally, the timing of the joint exercise coincides with the pull out of international forces from Afghanistan.

About 250 soldiers from both sides each will train in Uttarakhand under the theme “Counter terrorism operations in mountain terrain under the UN Charter”.

An Army establishment in The Kumaon Himalayas will be the venue. According to sources, given the high experience of Indian Army in mountain and jungle warfare, armies of other countries are regularly coming to practice with the Indian soldiers and using mountain warfare facilities in the Himalayas.
...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Rupesh » 12 Jan 2014 22:55

Rare footage from 1971 war.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8FqfHcvr0c[/youtube]

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 13 Jan 2014 00:10

rohitvats wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Army-kicks-off-raising-new-mountain-strike-corps-against-China/articleshow/28571907.cms

The corps, to be eventually headquartered at Panagarh in West Bengal, will cost Rs 64,700 crore, out of which around Rs 39,000 crore has being earmarked for capital expenditure, said sources. more clarity on the expenditure involved in raising the MSC. INR 39K Crore should translate into USD 6.5 billion...which is a healthy number if only we can manage the bureaucratic delays.


Perfect! Shukla caught with passing off bs in his article about how MSC is unaffordable. Like I guessed earlier, he was assuming all of that Rs 64k crores was CapEx. 39K crores is manageable because of two reasons
1) By making payments for past purchases, we will in time full pay up the past contracts, freeing up boatloads of money to purchase new weapons. Shukla assumed that all of our 'precommitted' payments were going to continue to perpetuity.
2) As a cushion, we can continue to utilize *over* 100% of the allocated defence Capital Budget, like we have done since 2009. (Source in next post)

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Nikhil T » 13 Jan 2014 00:19

Despite budget cut, defence ministry continues with modernization drive

NEW DELHI: Despite resistance from defence ministry, the government has cut more than Rs 7,800 crore from the former's budgetary allocation for this year.

However, notwithstanding the financial constraints, the ministry, in this fiscal till December 31, has been able to spend over 82 per cent of its budget for modernization while continuing with the drive to procure and upgrade military assets, which has seen a whopping Rs 3.25 lakh crore (around $55 billion) being spent over the last five years.

There was a cut of more than Rs 7,800 crore in the defence budget of Rs 2.03 lakh crore for the 2013-14 fiscal despite opposition to the same from the ministry, defence sources said. They, however, added that, with the diversion of funds internally, the ministry has been able to manage.

Last year as well, defence ministry had faced a budget cut of more than Rs 10,000 crore in view of the economic slowdown in the country.

Utilising its full allocation of funds and reversing the earlier trend of limited utilization, the ministry procured and upgraded a large chunk of military equipment, including nuclear submarines, special operations transport aircraft and fighter planes, sources said.

This year, the ministry has already spent 82 per cent of the capital acquisition budget of around Rs 80,000 crore and is slated to fully utilise its allocation.

The procurements included 10 C-17 heavylift and 12 C-130J transport aircraft, 12 P-8I anti-submarine warfare planes, Akula-II class nuclear submarine (on lease) and Su-30MKI aircraft.

Besides, money was spent on developing the indigenous LCA Tejas for the IAF and to upgrade 51 Mirage-2000 combat planes.

In 2009-10, the ministry spent Rs 51,112 crore, which was 106 per cent of the allotted funds whereas, in the next fiscal, it spent Rs 62,056 crore, or 102 per cent of the allocation, sources added.

In 2011-12 and 2012-13 also, the ministry continued the trend by spending over Rs 1.38 lakh crore, more than 102 per cent of the modernization budget, they said.

For this fiscal, the ministry's allocation was Rs 2.03 lakh crore, of which around Rs 80,000 crore were to be spent on modernization.

So far, 82 per cent of those funds has been spent. The balance would also be spent in the next few weeks, sources said.

A number of procurements are in the pipeline while some are in their final stages and expected to materialise in the coming months.

Those include deals for 22 Apache combat choppers, 15 Chinook heavylift helicopters and the 126 Rafale combat aircraft.

Defence ministry is also in advanced negotiations for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programme with Russia, on which it is expected to spend around Rs 1.5 lakh crore in the next 10-15 years.

It is also in the process of issuing the tender for the approximately Rs 60,000 crore deal for procuring six large conventional diesel electric submarines for the Navy.

The ministry has been seeking additional funds of Rs 40,000 crore since last year, but that request has been turned down in view of the slowdown, the sources said.

In view of the defence scams in which foreign firms were involved, the ministry has also worked towards promoting indigenization in the defence sector for which it made a major procurement policy change to make the importing of weapons systems the last option for the three services.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Jan 2014 10:29

KiranM wrote: In both calculations where are the ~50% non ICV personnel being used up?


Mechanised Infantry Battalion

Battalion HQ-3
Regimental Aid Post-2
Assault Pioneer Platoon-2
Mortar Platoon-6
Mech Coy-13
Mech Coy-13
Mech Coy-13
Total-52

Mechanised Batalions like their Infantry brethren would have platoons to support them in operations. Armoured formations in addition are extremely resource hungry and require organic logistics assets for FOL, Ordinance etc in the form of A and B echelons in addition to Signals, Medical, Mortar, Motor Transport,Quater Master, Admin Platoons and Battalion HQ plus having a large EME Light Repair Det.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Jan 2014 12:04

Army Chief during Army Day News Conference: 22 new units raised on 1st December 2013 for Mountain Strike Corps from Regimental Centres.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 13 Jan 2014 13:26

Well, recently came across the information that 12 Para was raised as 23 Rajputana Rifles and later converted to parachute role.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 13 Jan 2014 15:56

^^ And this 12 Para being the new SF unit you mentioned about besides 11? So they have 11, 12, 21 for eastern sector.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby KiranM » 13 Jan 2014 17:08

vaibhav.n wrote:
KiranM wrote: In both calculations where are the ~50% non ICV personnel being used up?


Mechanised Infantry Battalion

Battalion HQ-3
Regimental Aid Post-2
Assault Pioneer Platoon-2
Mortar Platoon-6
Mech Coy-13
Mech Coy-13
Mech Coy-13
Total-52

Mechanised Batalions like their Infantry brethren would have platoons to support them in operations. Armoured formations in addition are extremely resource hungry and require organic logistics assets for FOL, Ordinance etc in the form of A and B echelons in addition to Signals, Medical, Mortar, Motor Transport,Quater Master, Admin Platoons and Battalion HQ plus having a large EME Light Repair Det.


Thank you Vaibhav, so based on numbers the teeth of the Mech Inf Bn is the 390 men (with 351 dismounts) in 39 ICVs as compared to a regular Infantry Bn of 496 shooters (excluding the combat support like Mortar platoons, etc). But this difference of 145 boots on ground is offset by the greater firepower of 39 ICVs. What about reserve ICVs? They will not be held at Bn level unlike an Armoured Regt?

If instead of complete mechanization, IA were to carry out partial motorization by way of dedicated wheeled vehicles like Strykers and Humvees, how would the organization look? Will it be similar to a Mech Inf Bn? I think the closest parallel will be units using BRDMs.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Karan M » 14 Jan 2014 03:16

And what a plan they made
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... px?hts0021

And the brits hype up the SAS, the perfect planners wagehra

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Vipul » 14 Jan 2014 04:03

Indian Army’s arms are in a state of crisis.

Strange as it may seem, Indian genius can successfully launch multiple satellites or a spacecraft to Mars but seems hopelessly ill-equipped to develop a basic armament such as a rifle, carbine or pistol.Obviously, there appears to be a huge disconnect between technical prowess and the organisational capabilities on ground.

At the same time, while an energy dependent country like India needs to modernise and create a powerful Navy with an equally lethal Air Force, New Delhi’s neglect of modernisation of its Army creates a dangerous situation placing the land borders and those who protect them under tremendous pressure.

Two countries, i.e. China and Pakistan, lay false claims on Indian territory. With continuous Chinese incursions nibbling away bits of Indian land and supporting internal insurgencies and Pakistan’s export of terrorism as an instrument of its foreign policy, the Indian Army has constantly been on its toes since Independence.

The bewildering variety of antiquated artillery guns - 120mm mortars, 105mm Field gun, 130mm Medium gun, 155mm Gun, 122mm Howitzer, 122mm Multi-barreled Rocket Launcher and now Pinaka and Smerch Long Range Systems are a logistician’s nightmare.

Ground based air defence is practically non-existent and devoid of Control and Reporting (C&R) System. Further, air defence is in shambles as the L-60 and L-70 guns are of WW II vintage. On the other hand, the Schilka self-propelled guns, SAM and OSA-AK missiles are of early 1970s vintage. Not a single gun and missile has been acquired since then.

Tanks and ICVs are night blind. New Delhi is unable to decide between import of Thermal Imager Fire Control System (TIFCS) and Thermal Imager Stand Alone System (TISAS).Imagine Pakistan forces equipped with night vision devices sitting right behind blind Indian mechanised forces since modern wars will be fought largely at night.

The Infantry soldier fights with a WW II carbine while the terrorist is equipped with an AK-47. The DRDO has been kept in business by funneling taxpayer’s resources but the INSAS rifles and LMG have not proven successful. The Future Infantry Soldier As A System (FINSAS) project is yet to take off. The DRDO continues to copy ideas from the brochures of the western firms, guzzling huge defence budgets yet is unable to produce a simple CQB weapon such as a carbine! Communications systems remain antiquated. Fifty per cent of the infantry is yet to be equipped with Individual Combat Kit (ICK).

The reason India does produce and launch technology intensive satellites is primarily due to the pragmatic functional approach adopted by ISRO. The fact that it does not produce a modern rifle or a carbine is due to the wrong model adopted by the public sector defence units, which are extremely inefficient, wasteful and unwise.The ordnance factories and other defence sector public units are not only mired in corruption but also outdated and antediluvian in their management practices.For example, the delay in production of the Scorpene submarine in Mazagon docks in Mumbai was primarily due to the time it took for DCNS France to upgrade and modernise its management practices.

Or for that matter to ensure the smooth production of Rafale in India by HAL, Dassault Aviation needs to conduct a gaps analysis to plug the quality loopholes. Unless HAL facilities are brought up to international standards, a modern fighter aircraft such as the Rafale cannot be built.

Another problem is that HAL itself is overburdened with production of diverse types of aircraft. The result is if it is assembling Russian SU-30, then the supply of the SU-30 spares to the Air Force suffers and vice-versa.

It would be prudent for New Delhi to create, back and fund two private sector aviation companies not only as a competition to HAL but also to allow the creation of an Indian equivalent of ‘Boeing’ or ‘Lockheed Martin’.

Despite the neglect in equipping the Army with young human resources, which are available in abundance, and lethal firepower and high degree of maneuverability, it is to the credit of this unique institution that it has managed to retain the integrity of the borders and at the same time, dominate the counter-insurgency grid that the external adversaries are determined to fan.

In effect, despite poor governance, the Indian Army with practically no modernisation of its artillery, air defence, Special Forces and an excellent 335 worth of Infantry battalions, manages to hold the external threat at bay as well as subdue the rising internal threats.India has a young demographic profile with an extraordinary reservoir of brainpower to make this a distinct possibility. However, with rapid advancement in defence technologies this is only possible if India stops ‘reinventing the wheel’ and enters into mutually profitable joint ventures with international partners with the aim to leapfrog the technological gap by kick-starting the defence sector at a higher threshold.

With their advanced technologies, defence companies in the West are hugely attracted to the vast Indian market. Similarly, India should be attracted to the best defence technologies available in the world to upgrade the military capabilities of the Indian armed forces. Whilst the synergy of interests between both exists, New Delhi has failed to leverage the same.

Therefore, the Indian Army’s combat arms are in a state of crises because of obsolete equipment that has not been replaced in the last sixty years.

The Navy is left with eight operational submarines against the stated requirement of thirty. Keeping in view the precarious position, one wonders what stopped New Delhi from ordering in a single stroke twelve submarines from the French and simultaneously opening a second submarine manufacturing line with another vendor.The laborious and complicated process of vetting tenders and negotiations provided adequate data to replenish the dwindling submarine resources at one go. Once again, we start this time-consuming tedious process to appoint a second vendor.

The key question for India, which in recent times has flawlessly endeavored to reach Mars, therefore, is how to develop and manufacture a modern rifle, carbine or a pistol? The answer lies in the promotion of joint ventures in the private sector with foreign companies which boast of knowhow in this field. The foreign companies will be willing to bring fairly sunrise technologies in case they are provided attractive shares of at least 49 per cent in the joint ventures.

If India can encourage its private sector to set up at least two such joint ventures, a fair amount of self-sufficiency to supply small arms to the military, para-military as well as the state police forces will be ensured.Furthermore, if these joint ventures with the help of the Government of India are provided adequate incentives and funds for further research to continuously upgrade these technologies and weapons, a time will come when India will become exporter of these small arms to friendly countries.

This is possible because of India’s young, technically-savvy demographic profile, which the international companies want to exploit. New Delhi must intelligently learn to leverage this win-win situation.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby srai » 14 Jan 2014 05:46

^^^

If the IA is not even able to modernise equipment of its existing forces, it should not have expanded to create additional mountain strike corps plus 2 extra divisions.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 14 Jan 2014 18:28

Vipul wrote: Fifty per cent of the infantry is yet to be equipped with Individual Combat Kit (ICK).


If true, very troubling indeed :shock: . According to OFB, this is what ICK has:

Individual Combat Kit (ICK)

1.Waist Belt
2.Frog Bayonet
3.Haversack
4.Duffel Pack
5.Ammunition Chest Rig

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 14 Jan 2014 18:40

KiranM wrote: What about reserve ICVs? They will not be held at Bn level unlike an Armoured Regt?

If instead of complete mechanization, IA were to carry out partial motorization by way of dedicated wheeled vehicles like Strykers and Humvees, how would the organization look? Will it be similar to a Mech Inf Bn? I think the closest parallel will be units using BRDMs.


No idea about reserve IFV's, but some are bound to be held to account for WWR.

If equipped with Stykers, an Wheeled IFV Battalion would essentially be completely Mechanised. Wheeled variants do carry more troops into battle, delivering increased bayonet strength into a firefight. I cannot speculate into a probable ToE.

Some Recce and Support Battalions are equipped with BRDM's but are primarily used as recce units.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby dinesh_kimar » 14 Jan 2014 19:38

If the IA is not even able to modernise equipment of its existing forces, it should not have expanded.


Spot On, Saar.

A few Years back some General while speaking abt defence of Pir Panjal Range, said that manpower could be reduced to 1/3 rd , if certain elements like UAVs, Tactical Radios, etc. were made available. As recently postulated on BRF, IA is throwing manpower to solve problems.
Kit and equipment of IA personnel on COIN can be improved, for example. BPJs and helmets are a recurring issue.

Having a more potent force for Mountain Operations is certainly important.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Siddhu » 14 Jan 2014 19:54

srai wrote:
If the IA is not even able to modernise equipment of its existing forces, it should not have expanded to create additional mountain strike corps plus 2 extra divisions.


Well it is not necessary to equip entire armed force. Soldiers should be well trained that should be the primary goal.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_27603 » 15 Jan 2014 00:14

dinesh_kumar wrote:
If the IA is not even able to modernise equipment of its existing forces, it should not have expanded.


Spot On, Saar.

A few Years back some General while speaking abt defence of Pir Panjal Range, said that manpower could be reduced to 1/3 rd , if certain elements like UAVs, Tactical Radios, etc. were made available. As recently postulated on BRF, IA is throwing manpower to solve problems.
Kit and equipment of IA personnel on COIN can be improved, for example. BPJs and helmets are a recurring issue.

Having a more potent force for Mountain Operations is certainly important.

Its very easy to sit in WIFI hotspots and make comments like the above. These are issues which well thought upon and executed.

Please feel free to rebut an argument or point-of-view with a well reasoned post; posts like above act nothing more than as flame baits. Please consider this henceforth. Thanks - rohitvats

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chackojoseph » 15 Jan 2014 08:00

IA recruitment advt in HT today has all Indian made arms including Arjun Tank, ALH and Akash Missile.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby wig » 15 Jan 2014 10:30

Battling antiquity: The Army’s , is facing a grave crisis that involves serious deficiencies in equipment and a decline in internal health

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140115/edit.htm#6
the write up is quite lengthy;
excerpts
Successive reports prepared by the parliamentary standing committee on defence have served as a reality check on the Army’s preparedness. In one such report tabled in parliament in April 2013, the Ministry of Defence has conceded that armoured (tank) regiments had been supplied with defective ammunition thereby forcing the government to purchased 66,000 rounds of 125 mm Fin Stabilised Armoured Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) along with transfer of technology. What is disconcerting is that 23 items of ammunition have been given perpetual trouble and there have been 200 accidents since 1985 due to low quality of just one type of ammunition. This, according to the Army’s then Vice Chief as recorded in the report, had made soldiers afraid to fire ‘even if it sees the enemy’.

In Jammu and Kashmir, where soldiers have been embroiled in counter-insurgency operations for almost two-and-a-half decades, and in insurgency affected parts of the north east, the Army continues to lack bullet proof jackets. In April 2013, the Army suffered a deficiency of 186,138 bullet proof jackets (estimated cost per jacket Rs 50,000) even four years after it had been sanctioned.

The issue here is of apathy as much as it is about deficiency. India’s second-largest arm, the Regiment of Artillery is among the most obsolescent considering that the Army’s ‘latest’ artillery gun, the Bofors 155 mm FH77/B howitzer, was purchased almost three decades ago. The numbers of these guns have fallen to just 200 from the original 410. With almost every major firm selling artillery guns having been black listed by the government, the artillery, which plays a crucial role in supporting both the infantry and armour regiments by softening the enemy through brute firepower from a distance of an average 40 km, is among the Army’s most obsolescence arm. Another disconcerting example is that of a large number of soldiers getting killed or maimed while laying defective mines during Operation Parakram, which involved the large scale mobilisation of the Army along the border with Pakistan that lasted from December 2001 to October 2002 following the attack by Pakistani sponsored terrorists on the Indian parliament on 13th December 2001, The list of such examples of deficiencies in the 21st century Indian Army are just as endless as they are frightful.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby wig » 15 Jan 2014 10:34

Services told to appeal against verdicts in favour of ex-servicemen - this will result in issues going in appeal till the supreme court. it is very difficult for any normal person leave alone ex servicemen to afford the steep fees of professionals and time lines involved in pursuing judicial procedures. And all this is because the bare acts that govern such matters are written in language which lends itself to differing interpretations - a bane of legal drafting.
a sad day for the nation.
excerpts

The orders of the MoD list six-categories of cases and each category has been backed by an example of an important pending case and the advice of the Attorney General’s office in that particular case. Using the AG’s pre-existing advice in that particular case, the MoD has said that all similar cases should be appealed against automatically.

The six categories of cases are: Extending benefit of broad banding of disability meant for “invalidated out” soldiers to personnel who retired/ got discharged/ or released from the service (both pre-1996 and post-1996 cases); granting disability pension to personnel who have been assessed and graded by a medical board holding that the disability was neither attributable nor aggravated by the military service; granting benefit of trade rationalisation to pre-96 retirees from January 1, 1996, irrespective of the government instructions providing for benefits from July 1, 2009; granting parity of pension to personnel below officer rank (PBORs) vis-à-vis Viceroy commissioned officers; grant of reservist pension to ineligible personnel who have not rendered required length of nine years of active service plus six years of reserve service.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20140115/nation.htm#8

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby member_23455 » 15 Jan 2014 13:41

Thambis Rocking on the LoC

There is hope for the Indian Army's PR machinery if it can kill two birds with one stone like in this instance.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chetak » 16 Jan 2014 06:10

All hail St Anthony, patron saint of the babus

Services told to appeal against verdicts in favour of ex-servicemen

Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, January 14
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has issued a set of instructions asking the three services to go ahead and automatically file appeals in higher courts in six categories of cases where ex-servicemen have got favourable verdicts.

There is no need to seek sanction before filing appeals against such verdicts; go ahead and contest the case right up to the Supreme Court, imply the instructions.

The Department of Ex-Servicemen under the MoD issued the instructions on January 2 and asked the legal wings of the Army, the Air Force and the Navy to automatically appeal against the verdicts going in favour of soldiers in courts or the Armed Forces Tribunal (AFT).

In case a retired soldier wins a case of increase in disability pension in a lower court or the AFT, the Judge Adjutant General (JAG) in the services has been told to file an appeal.

The orders of the MoD list six-categories of cases and each category has been backed by an example of an important pending case and the advice of the Attorney General’s office in that particular case. Using the AG’s pre-existing advice in that particular case, the MoD has said that all similar cases should be appealed against automatically.

The six categories of cases are: Extending benefit of broad banding of disability meant for “invalidated out” soldiers to personnel who retired/ got discharged/ or released from the service (both pre-1996 and post-1996 cases); granting disability pension to personnel who have been assessed and graded by a medical board holding that the disability was neither attributable nor aggravated by the military service; granting benefit of trade rationalisation to pre-96 retirees from January 1, 1996, irrespective of the government instructions providing for benefits from July 1, 2009; granting parity of pension to personnel below officer rank (PBORs) vis-à-vis Viceroy commissioned officers; grant of reservist pension to ineligible personnel who have not rendered required length of nine years of active service plus six years of reserve service.

This will mean the soldiers seeking small additional pension benefits will have to contest the case right up to the Supreme Court, resulting in an expense of lakhs of rupees in legal fees that the retired soldier or his widow may not be able to afford.




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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby SaiK » 16 Jan 2014 06:38

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby wig » 16 Jan 2014 10:05

additional, four army brigades to be deployed in ladakh
excerpts
Disclosing that four additional Army Brigades would be stationed in Ladakh region within next few months, sources said, “Brigadier level officers have already been posted in the region to personally supervise the creation of infrastructure required for each of these Brigades. Three Brigades will be stationed in Leh district and one in Kargil district”.
In Leh district, one Brigade would be stationed near Patharsahib Gurdwara, which is situated around 20 kilometers from Leh town while as second Brigade will have the Headquarters in Durbuk, which is one of the points where Indian and Chinese troops have frictions after regular intervals. The third Brigade will be stationed in Nimo village, sources said while disclosing that infrastructure for these Brigades would be completed during the upcoming working season.
Disclosing that one of these Brigades is full-fledged Armoured Brigade, sources said, “this is for the first time that Armoured contingent is being deployed in Jammu and Kashmir. Mainly, there are Infantry and Artillery Brigades”,

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/4-more-ar ... na-threat/

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 16 Jan 2014 14:46

wig wrote:additional, four army brigades to be deployed in ladakh <SNIP>


:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

There has been news floating around for some time that IA had planned to raise 1 x (I) mountain brigade and 1 x (I) Armored Bde for Ladakh Sector.

So, of the four brigades mentioned, we need to check if two are new raising and if other two will be moved from some other sector. Which further begs the question that will IA now look to raise 2 x infantry bdes to fill the gap from where these bdes are moved to eastern Ladakh?

Ajai Shukla had some time back reported that IA has moved 1 x infantry bde from Valley to eastern Ladakh. This gave 3 Division total of three bdes - 2 x bdes deployed upfront and 1 x bde as reserve. We need to check if one of three infantry bdes mentioned in the news items is accounted for in the earlier news item by AS.

With latest move, IA just added another division worth of troops under 14 Corps - of the three bdes for eastern Ladakh, armored bde and 1 x infantry bde may be under direct control of 14 Corps HQ. While, 1 x infantry bde may well for 3 Division. If the current news is inclusive of earlier move reported by AS, then we will have 3 Division with 3 x infantry bdes; however, if the news is in addition to what AS had reported, then we have 3 Division with 4 x infantry bdes.

My spider sense tells me that we may witness a new division HQ being announced for eastern Ladakh to rationalize the huge Area of Responsibility (AOR) of 3 division and manage the forces better.

The location given in the news is pretty interesting - check the map below:

1. A is proposed location of one of the new armored bde
2. B is proposed location of one of the new infantry bde
3. C is proposed location of one of the new infantry bde
4. D is location of existing infantry bde
5. E is location of existing infantry bde

A & B make it obvious that formations are reserve and not deployed upfront. D & E are brigades deployed upfront and now C add to this phalanx. BTW, location C covers area east and north of northern portion of Pangong Tso lake; in 1962 war, PLA tried to enter in area east of northern portion of the lake to outflank our positions to north and south of lake.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby malushahi » 16 Jan 2014 20:55

rohitvats wrote:1. A is proposed location of one of the new armored bde
Image


I guess you meant "1. A is proposed location of one of the new armored bde"

Presumably you show Nimu as the location for A. Should its location not be at Trishul Battle School or thereabouts? Colocation reasons?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 16 Jan 2014 21:03

malushahi wrote: I guess you meant "1. A is proposed location of one of the new armored bde"

Presumably you show Nimu as the location for A. Should its location not be at Trishul Battle School or thereabouts? Colocation reasons?


Yes, pardon the English (or lack of it)!

As for location - well, I have been never there but it seems you are familiar with the area. I marked the location based on news report and it is up to the IA which decides the location. However, my guess is that armored bde is in Nimoo because that is (was?) the location of single mechanized infantry battalion under 3 Division. I would not be surprised if the same will be absorbed into the new armored bde.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby malushahi » 16 Jan 2014 21:09

@RV, can you inbox me as I cannot.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 16 Jan 2014 21:54

malushahi wrote:@RV, can you inbox me as I cannot.


please check PM. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 17 Jan 2014 14:02

Rohit,

What does 3 Div have there; brigades at Demchok and Chushul and/or Pratapur. I thought they also had 102 (Indep) Bde at Thoise/Disket.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Jan 2014 14:59

102 Indp Bde has its hands full with Siachen.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby nelson » 19 Jan 2014 09:31

Women may get combat support role in Army

First time ever

* Army seeks permanent commission for women in streams such as Signals, EME and even inductions in aviation, artillery and engineering

* The matter will need an approval of the Cabinet Committee on Security

* Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh had, on Jan 13, ruled out any combat role for women in near future

* He had said: “Given the kind of infrastructure we have, I don't think we are prepared to make women part of infantry battalions.”

Tribune News Service

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 19 Jan 2014 23:11

vaibhav.n wrote:Rohit,

What does 3 Div have there; brigades at Demchok and Chushul and/or Pratapur. I thought they also had 102 (Indep) Bde at Thoise/Disket.


Well, the Orbat situation has been a bit fluid with bits and pieces of information flowing in through different sources. The trickle of information started in mid 2013 with Ajai Shukla carrying some reports. Plus, there was a good rediff article on the ground situation. This is what I understand:

1. 3 Infantry Division traditionally has had 2 x infantry bdes. 114 and 70 infantry bde. 114 Infantry bde has always been deployed upfront and is responsible for Chushul Sector. 70 Infantry bde was also initially deployed on LAC but was withdrawn following series of agreements with China. It served as 3 Division reserve in this period.

2. 70 infantry bde moved into the valley during CI Ops and the bde HQ had just returned when Kargil happened. It was sucked into Kargil war.

3. 102 (I) Infantry bde was raised in mid-80s has been responsible for a Turtok in west, Siachen in center and DBO/Sub-Sector North (SSN) in east. Apart from infantry battalions, it also had the Ladakh Scouts wings - I think it controls some of the Ladakh Scouts Battalions today.

4. As of 2009, 70 Infantry Bde was moved to Kiari (http://wikimapia.org/11148268/Kiari) which sits astride the road from Leh to Demchok. This is some kilometers prior to Nyoma where the airfield is supposed to come up. My guess is that this brigade is responsible for the Demchok sector and areas south and south-west to it.

5. 114 Infantry bde is at Tangste (http://www.maplandia.com/india/jammu-and-kashmir/ladakh-leh/tangtse/) and I think is responsible from Chang-Chenmo (http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.270233&lon=78.618078&z=14&m=b&search=chang%20chenmo) to Chushul (including Pangong Tso) sector.

6. The media carried a report last year that IA has moved 81 (I) bde east and is now under 14 Corps for eastern Ladakh. It has been surmised by certain learned maulanas that this move reflected the eastward shift of the IA. The plan it seems is to have 2 x infantry divisions for eastern Ladakh. The rough AOR could be DBO-Galwan-Chang Chenmo and Chushul-Demchok.

7. Now, we know IA had asked for 1 x (I) mountain bde and 1 x (I) armored bde for eastern Ladakh. So, it is likely that the news about four bdes takes into account these two new raising plus 81 Mountain Bde which is reported to have already moved east. This still leaves us with 1 x infantry bde to account for - it can be moved from some other sector raised afresh. We don't know at present.

8. Location of one infantry bde and armored bde close to Leh shows that these could be the Corps reserve. Could be both offensive and counter-penetration reserves. That would still leave 3 Division with only 2 x infantry bdes and no reserve - even if the bde proposed for Darbuk becomes 3 Division component, we would have all bdes committed to LAC. And reserves comes only from Corps HQ. For the time being.

9. Now there are two possibilities with respect to placing an infantry bde at Darbuk - east of Chang La.

9.1 The bde is responsible for areas to east of northern portion of Pangong Tso lake and Chang-Chenmo Valley (where the famous Hot Springs incident of 1959 happened). The AOR of 114 Bde at Tangste becomes more compact and rationalized with this move.

9.2. There is another interesting possibility - it could be reserve Bde HQ for DBO sector in case of any crisis situation. The location puts it on road from Darbuk to Shyok Village where the Shyok river takes the famous U-turn. I know the distance is large but this is just a thought.

Darbuk - http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=34.107256&lon=78.112793&z=11&m=h&search=darbuk

10. 3 Infantry Division had a mechanized infantry battalion under it - I would not be surprised if it gets folded under proposed (I) armored bde and becomes it mechanized infantry battalion. IA has already moved a T-90 regiment I think ON ROAD to Leh. As per media reports, IA has asked new tanks for the 2 x armored bdes sanctioned for Ladakh and NE. I think the plan is to move T-90 armored regiments from plains to these areas while converting fresh armored regiments with latest version of T-90 for plains.

11. Some maulanas believe that AOR of 102 (I) has been rationalized now that 8 Mountain Division mans the western Ladakh - which would be good news. Situation on the LOC also remains a bit fluid (for me) and I need to work on my notes - coming of new infantry bde for Kargil creates good situation for us.

Long rant over...

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby NRao » 20 Jan 2014 06:35

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby NRao » 20 Jan 2014 06:47

Israel helped India in 1971 Indo-Pak war,revealed a book

The book, 1971, by scholar Srinath Raghavan


ISBN 9780674728646

Publication: November 2013

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby vaibhav.n » 21 Jan 2014 18:23

Rohit,

Just saw your post. Thank you for the effort. Your map knowledge is very extensive. Do you use Google Earth exclusively or order maps from survey of india also?

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby rohitvats » 21 Jan 2014 22:16

vaibhav.n wrote:Rohit,

Just saw your post. Thank you for the effort. Your map knowledge is very extensive. Do you use Google Earth exclusively or order maps from survey of india also?


Well, thanks for the good word.

Actually, I have been trying to understand the boundary issue in Ladakh for sometime from historical perspective. Along with Siachen issue and its wider ramification. While the texts on both these subjects give good details, they lack in terms of detailed map(s). W/o understanding the location of places on map or a feature being described, it is difficult to make sense of the narrative - especially when it is tied greatly to the geography of the land.

The biggest and best source of topographical maps is the University of Texas map center. It has maps of the area prepared in early 50s and 60s - the best part is that they contain alignment of old trade/caravan routes and mark all the places which might not be reflected in Google today.

Here is the link: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/texas.html

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/jog/india/ - use the Index Map to choose geographical area of your interest.

The best way is to study these maps along with Google Earth to understand the lay of the land. While Google Earth can be resource hungry, one can use the terrain feature on Wikimapia.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2014 00:01

NRao wrote:Israel helped India in 1971 Indo-Pak war,revealed a book

The book, 1971, by scholar Srinath Raghavan


ISBN 9780674728646

Publication: November 2013



Website is blocked. Please post if possible.

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby chaanakya » 22 Jan 2014 00:11

^^

http://defencelover.in/2013/11/01/israe ... ed-a-book/
India may not have had diplomatic ties with Israel but New Delhi quietly sought and got arms from Tel Aviv as it prepared to fight against Pakistan in 1971, a book has revealed

The book, 1971, by scholar Srinath Raghavan offers fresh insights into the 14-day war that led to the creation of Bangladesh.Raghavan Searched through the papers of PN Haksa,maintained at Nehru Memorial Museum in New Delhi .

A diplomat, Haksar was also an adviser to the then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.Raghavan’s research reveals that India’s ambassador to France DN Chatterjee began the process to get Israeli arms with a note to the external affairs ministry on July 6, 1971, saying assistance from Israel for “propaganda, finance and even procurement of armament and oil” would be “invaluable”. Gandhi immediately accepted the proposal and through the country’s external intelligence agency R&AW began the process to get the arms through the tiny principality of Liechtenstein.

India didn’t have diplomatic ties with Israel at that time,Israel was in middle of an arms shortage but prime minister Golda Meir stepped in to divert arms meant for Iran to India. She sent a note addressed to Indira Gandhi in Hebrew through Shlomo Zabuldowicz, the director of the firm handling the secret transfers, with a request for diplomatic ties in return for arms.

Another Note by RN KAO,founder of RAW,To P N Haksar also mentioned in the book. It was documented that arms sent by Israel was air lifted by skilled Israeli Instructors by RN Kao. and the arms will reach Indian Army and Mukti Bahani eventually.

Another revealation in this book that Iran and Pakistan that Iran will give air-cover to Pakistan in case Indian Army reaches Karachi.



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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2014 00:28

So what arms were those? Looks like to me small arms for MB to provide plausible deniability.

Moshe Dayan had written that Israel and India had links right after 1956.

BTW role of Shah's Iran was not any revelation except for the 'no memory' folks. Right after 1965, Shah of Iran diverted 'old' F-86s from West German arms dealers to TSP.

Hind Times review of the book:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 46011.aspx


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