Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Jan 2014 15:42

^^ A-4 images in tarmak FB. Doesnt have the SFC camo since not yet inducted IIRC:

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Jan 2014 16:43

Are those picss from today's test?

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Jan 2014 16:51

^^ Timeline not specified but has been uploaded 1 hour back. So should be of today's test!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Jan 2014 17:12

Dr. Saraswat is not in the pix. So, it must be today's test.

srin · Post by **srin** » 20 Jan 2014 17:17

Aditya_V wrote:Is it practical to have a 20-22 meter to be carried in a submarine? I think that is just to state that the missile can be cold launched from a canister.

Yep - the submarine launched missiles are stubbier.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jan 2014 17:54

Now for more tests on ABM (PDV), Astra, CLGM, Nirbay, Nag, Prahaar, Pinaka-2 & more news on progress with ARM, PGMs/Long range PGMs, seekers (eg A2G ones) and subsystems.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Jan 2014 18:35

^^ Video of Todays launch posted in Tarmak FB. Not sure how to link it here

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 20 Jan 2014 19:28

sum wrote:^^ Video of Todays launch posted in Tarmak FB. Not sure how to link it here

Someone uploaded the video on Youtube

member_24903 · Post by **member_24903** » 20 Jan 2014 21:52

Karan M wrote:Now for more tests on ABM (PDV), Astra, CLGM, Nirbay, Nag, Prahaar, Pinaka-2 & more news on progress with ARM, PGMs/Long range PGMs, seekers (eg A2G ones) and subsystems.

In addition, First Canister based launch of Agni -V in March-April.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 422469.ece
Agni V’s next trial will be canister-based

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Jan 2014 22:03

Wonder why the Agni 4 trial does not show up in Google News and also hasn't recieved much coverage in the various news websites.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 20 Jan 2014 22:06

^Probably successful 'Agony' missile tests have become a regular boring affair

But but but.. if it had failed.. then clearly India needs to build more toilets than invest in rocketry..

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Jan 2014 22:28

What's the sequence: once since A4's development trials are over, will its serial production start and user trials carried out as needed? Or will user trials have to be completed before induction (i.e. 1 or 2 missiles are inducted, user-trialed, followed by larger volume production)?

Thanks

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2014 22:32

Aditya_V wrote:....

Meanwhile

Agni IV Missile successfully test fired

India’s nuclear deterrence programme received a boost on Monday when its Agni-IV, a surface-to-surface missile with a range of about 4,000 km, was successfully test-fired from the Wheeler Island, off the Odisha coast. The Agni-IV is a strategic missile which can carry a nuclear warhead weighing one tonne. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which developed the missile, did the test-firing. This was the third success in a row for Agni-IV. Its first success came in November 2011 and the second in Sepetmber 2012.

Avinash Chander, Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister and DRDO Director-General, said “the mission went off perfectly well” with Agni-IV reaching a height of about 850 km and achieving its full range of 4,000 km. The success “opens a new missile ready for induction” into the Army, he said.

A team from the Army “participated in the launch and was involved in all preparations for the launch,” he added. The missile would be handed over to the user now and its serial production would start.

Mr. Chander said the success had ramped up the nation's “deterrence to a higher level of preparedness and effectiveness.” The missile was fired from a road-mobile launcher. This meant it “can be moved anywhere in the country and this is its main strength.”

Radar stations at Port Blair, Chandipur, Balasore and Pardip tracked the missile’s entire trajectory including the terminal event, that is, the detonation of the warhead.

Asked whether the missile had a dummy warhead in this flight, Mr. Chander said it carried “the entire warhead minus the nuclear part.” Ravi Gupta, Director, Public Interface, DRDO, said the launch took place at 10.52 a.m. and the flight lasted about 20 minutes. The missile’s terminal event took place over the Indian Ocean.

Agni-IV is a two-stage missile. It weighs 17 tonnes and is 20 metres long. Senior officers from the Odisha Government watched the launch from the Wheeler Island. .

PTI adds:

“The state-of-the-art Ring Laser Gyros based high accuracy INS (INS) and Micro Navigation System (MINGS) complementing each other in redundant mode have been incorporated into the missile system in guidance mode,” DRDO sources said.

The sophisticated missile is lighter in weight and has two stages of solid propulsion. The payload, with a re—entry heat shield can withstand temperature of more than 3000 degree Celsius, a defence scientist said.

Three in a row shows its ready.
Looks like commonality with K4

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 20 Jan 2014 23:15

^^^^^^^^^^^
Sir, commonality between K15 and Shaurya i could understand, but between K4 and A 4

Or only in terms of avionics etc ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2014 23:21

Wait and see. Its on the inside and not the shape.

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 20 Jan 2014 23:57

dinesha wrote:^^^^ Should be underway now.

Developmental Trial of Agni-IV Missile Today
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 009627.ece
India is all set to carry out the fourth developmental trial of 4,000 km range nuclear capable Agni-IV missile from a defence base off Odisha coast on Monday. The missile is likely to be test fired from the Wheeler Island test facility.

Defence sources said while range integration had been completed for the test, initial countdown has begun at the test range. The intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) would be fired in full operational configuration between 8 am and 12 noon on Monday.

“The range is ready for the test and so also the mission team. The missile would be made vertical prior to the test and it would be launched after a special puja and some ceremonial offerings at the test range,” said the sources.

Though Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik and Chief Secretary Jugal Kishore Mohapatra were slated to witness the test for the first time, the CM’s visit was cancelled at the last minute.

The trial is aimed at revalidating some new technologies incorporated in the Agni-IV system and gauging the performance of its subsystems. The indigenously developed surface-to-surface missile is the most advanced long-range ballistic missile capable of being launched within minutes from a self-contained road mobile launcher.

Having a strike range of around 4,000 km, the two-stage solid propelled missile is 20 metre tall and weighs around 17 tonne. Compared to the Perishing missile of the US in terms of technology, Agni-IV has many cutting-edge technologies, which can meet global standards.

Agni-IV is better than 3,000-km range Agni-III in terms of performance envelop. It can be fired from locations deeper in the Indian hinterland, which will be very difficult for the enemy to track. The missile also possesses a submarine launch capability. It would be virtually indestructible and unstoppable in times of war.

The missile equipped with state of the art avionics and fifth generation on board computer has the latest features to correct and guide in-flight disturbances. It was first tested on December 10, 2010 which had failed while its second and third tests on November 15, 2011 and September 19, 2012 were successful.

Defence experts said with the twin success of 5,000 km range Agni-V missile India would emerge as another missile power in the region after the induction of Agni-IV, Agni-V and submarines launched K-15 missiles.

India’s arsenal is boasted of missiles like three variants of Prithvi, ship-launched Dhanush, BrahMos, Agni-I, Agni-II and Agni-III besides anti-tank Nag, Akash, Trishul and air-to-air Astra. This apart, new generation missiles like Sourya and Prahaar are undergoing developmental trials.

^^ Did any of us noticed about the term "Hinterland" and SUB'marine' Iaunch CapabIe...?
If we study these 2 words very carefully we will get the answer....
Hinterland usually refers to Vague/Ill-defined/Unknown| /Unexplored/remote/Rural Area/Undeveloped/Coastal/
Backwater..etc..etc

Hence, A-4 shall be definitely termed as an extended range SHOURYA class quasi-Ballistic SILO Based MRBM ready to be fired from 'Deeper Hinterlands' like a SUB(marine) COASTALSEABED/Unexplored/Remote/RuralBackwaters/Shallowwater SILO Locations "deep" Inside Our territory, Impregnable to any Nuclear First strike..

With this formidable weapon of nearICBM range inducted in our arsenal in large numbers, our enemy has to first consider Nuking our whole 7500km coastal seabed with megaton yields...

, if they dont want to be wiped off by our counter-strike.

srin · Post by **srin** » 21 Jan 2014 09:29

There is no report of A-4 being quasi-ballistic as Shaurya missile is.

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 21 Jan 2014 14:52

srin wrote:There is no report of A-4 being quasi-ballistic as Shaurya missile is.

"The missile also possesses a submarine launch capability. It would be virtually indestructible and unstoppable in times of war."

^^ All known pure ballistic missiles are theoretically vulnerable to BMD interception.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jan 2014 16:53

Brij,most interesting ideas. Aeons ago I mooted the poor man's deterrent,BMs on submersible barges,that could be towed/moved around naval bases in secured waterbodies.The barges could even have limited independent mobility.But a host of security problems arise-they would have to be most strictly secured and if they were able to get access through UW pens,where ingress and egress is underwater,then their movement as with a sub would be most difficult to detect.We already have the UW pontoons where our missiles are being tested to develop,along with sub hull missile sections too.The Soviets developed huge UG caverns,etc. during the CW for their SSBNs,some shown on programmes.The same concept could be adopted.These BM barges could complement the SSBNs ,and as you've said be a marine equiv. to a mobile BM launcher.The size of the missile though is a factor.If it was the same as a future sub-launched ICBM all the better.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jan 2014 21:00

A sawal to those who have followed the agni programme. When I look at the photos of the A4 I am thinking A2Prime. Have I gone nuts?

Will love to have certificate of in/sanity. From a missile nut.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Jan 2014 21:56

Pratyush wrote:A sawal to those who have followed the agni programme. When I look at the photos of the A4 I am thinking A2Prime. Have I gone nuts?

Will love to have certificate of in/sanity. From a missile nut.

A-2 Prime was renamed as Agni-IV post first or second launch.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2014 22:02

No insanity. Its the renamed version of Agni2 Prime. It got named AIV.

TSS on Nov 15, 2011
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 629274.ece

Agni-IV, capable of carrying nuclear warheads, was earlier called Agni-II Prime. The first flight of Agni-II Prime in December 2010 was a failure.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2014 22:10

Also TOI has some new info about the renetry temp. So far TSS has been saying 3Kdeg C. Now TOI Rajat Pandit says it was 4K deg C which means the trajecotry was long glide.

...
Chander said the two-stage Agni-IV missile was tested from the Wheeler Island off the Odisha coast in its "actual weapon configuration", in which it will be delivered to the Strategic Forces Command (SFC). The almost one-tonne warhead was not nuclear.

Chander said the "production line" for Agni-IV should kick into operation towards end-2014 or early-2015. "There will be two or three user trials. The missile's induction into the SFC can begin simultaneously," he said.

....
First tested in November 2011, the 17-tonne Agni-IV incorporates several new technologies in navigation, propulsion, avionics and other areas. "It can correct and guide itself during in-flight disturbances. In Monday's test, the missile's highly accurate ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system (RINS) and supported by very reliable redundant micro-navigation system (MINGS), ensured it hit the designated target within two-digit accuracy," said a scientist.

Though Agni-IV was tested from a road-mobile launcher for a range over 3,000 km on Monday, it can easily go up to 4,000 km. "It took off majestically, rose to a height over 850 km and covered the range in around 20 minutes," he said.

"The re-entry shield withstood temperatures of 4,000 degree centigrade and made sure the avionics function normally with the inside temperature remaining less than 50 degree centigrade," he added.

...

The earlier flights with the 3K deg C could have been max atmospheric pressure while this one saw higher temps due to the glide path to achieve full range. So in the three flights they tested different re-entry angles which are crucial for accuracy.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jan 2014 22:13

from that express link, it says 2 digit accuracy -> from 10 to 99. we can average the case to 50 meters? at what units is the CEP measured here?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2014 22:15

meters.

SaiK if it was the latter figure they wouldn't be talking so much about MINGS and CHINGS.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jan 2014 06:51

We have the capability,but do we have the will and proven decision-making set up to fight a nuclear war at either the tactical or strategic level? If our warheads are not going to be mated to the missiles (an impossibility with sub-launched and mobile "containerised missiles"),who is going to give the order to mate them (air launched and siloed) before and during a crisis?

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... epage=true
A mismatch of nuclear doctrines

X-Posted in the N-td.

India intends to deter nuclear use by Pakistan while Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are meant to compensate for conventional arms asymmetry.

Manufacturing a nuclear weapon does not, as a senior Indian Minister in 1998 claimed, create credible deterrence. Deterrence is entirely a matter of perceptions, a mental effect that is created on the adversary that nuclear use will entail assured retaliatory holocaust. The possibility of nuclear use is thereby pre-empted.

Nuclear signalling from the Indian government is hugely overdue, so much so that it will take some effort to restore stability to South Asian deterrence. The first target should be the Indian strategic community and there are enough discussions and conferences where officers from the SFC and nuclear staff could provide discrete assurances that things are not anarchic with India’s nuclear command and control.

(Raja Menon is a strategic analyst)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2014 07:32

Philp, Its odd that he makes such a statement. The NSA, NSAB both have signalled till they are blue in face.

As for the old massive retaliation is too much, thats the only way to deter all nuke use by TSP and makes TSP understand. Go back to Koranic concept of War.
Such a mindset has to be reminded of Qayamat.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 22 Jan 2014 09:57

Raja Menon & Vipin Narang seem to be saying the same things with respect to the Indian strategic community, not sure if they are trying to goad out a response in which case it might be more eloquent to keep mum.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2014 11:15

going from liquid to solid missiles should get better quiescene time until forces may want to pull one off the stock pile, and test them out. however, we still are hidden from the strategic portion of the terminal stage design that appears to be in cold storage. i know, we are not there yet to boldly go where the p5 went, but i think we don't have to fear to defend to the doctrines and established (long story short: revisit testing) maal-v&v lab setups for assured second strike. it may not be a full blown one, but at least the sub-criticals etc. i hope this process is active.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Jan 2014 11:17

BrijeshB wrote:
srin wrote:There is no report of A-4 being quasi-ballistic as Shaurya missile is.
"The missile also possesses a submarine launch capability. It would be virtually indestructible and unstoppable in times of war."

^^ All known pure ballistic missiles are theoretically vulnerable to BMD interception.

It may only mean it is terminally maneuverable, and not that it has a depressed trajectory. A quasi-ballistic missile is heavier because the flight profile isn't efficient. Everything about A-4 screams efficiency.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2014 21:31

Old Picture from Hindu gives very clear details of AIV

Agni IV test fired dated 23 Sep 2012.

There is no transition to the payload and the second stage. The second stage has flare section at the aft end which is needed to keep the center of pressure aft of the cg for stability.. Its possible the whole SS and payload can be sent all the way together. IOW the first stage acts only as a dumb booster.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 22 Jan 2014 22:16

^^^^^
There is some mysticism about AIV (at least for me). I have a feeling that there's more to this pencil thin boomer than what's been advertised. My hunch is that they might be proofing some techs for MARV or even MIRV for AV. Any gyan from gurus on such possibility?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2014 22:21

only the shroud pic can confirm that from the recent test launch.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Jan 2014 22:32

I think the odd paint job is of the range enhancing thermal coating. Maybe its characteristics will be altered if another camo/logo paint job is applied atop.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Jan 2014 22:35

Always believed they would replace the first stage boosters for both A4 and A5 with smaller ones made of composites, all in time maybe

The SS of A4 has seen 3 different colors, maroon in the first test, silver gray in the second and black in the final one, the black color may mean it also does the gliding bit along with the payload in many ways similar to the payload with fins of A2, a MaRV

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2014 00:37

vasu, Can you dig those three colors for each means something?
black could be carbon fibre reinforced motor which makes it a boost glide vehicle.
Also there was a Saraswat interview where he says the s motor had a composite case which reduced its weight.

The parade picture above shows design thinking of glide vehicle.

Sattli forget BM. Think of the recent dong feng test.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 23 Jan 2014 01:10

First test?

Second test on Sep 19, 2012, maybe Chromium coating on the SS?

Recent test Jan 20, 2014 with full thermal protection at 4000 deg C?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jan 2014 03:44

ArunS will be khush for you have brought out the evidence!!!
Last is carbon fiber maal just like the conical motor on AV.

The RV is the entire section forward of the first stage.

Tessyji Jai ho.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 23 Jan 2014 04:23

SFC might as well paint a big "Fck you" on the body. Seems to me like it is a hypersonic boost glide vehicle which is now tailored to perform the porpoise maneuver after making an atmospheric insertion from shallow orbit. If this indeed true it is going to be one tricky b*stard for the Chinese to counter and soon the yanks. No ABM shield is going to touch it for a while.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 23 Jan 2014 06:42

sattili wrote:^^^^^
There is some mysticism about AIV (at least for me). I have a feeling that there's more to this pencil thin boomer than what's been advertised. My hunch is that they might be proofing some techs for MARV or even MIRV for AV. Any gyan from gurus on such possibility?

I have the same thinking, DRDO tests all those technologies in these small vehicles and then port to A3 and A5. Wait for a news announcement of a new A3, K15, K4 and A5 tests