PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

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Karan M
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Karan M »

Viv S wrote:With regard to the engine, its got a very high bypass ratio (for a fighter jet) that more than compensates for the high thrust figure. Secondly, the F135 was structurally designed for a lower heat signature, being a further development of the LOAN concept.

Coming to the airframe, the engine is buried deeper in the fuselage than other aircraft, to partially insulate it. It has an IR topcoat applied, and employs active cooling particularly to cater to frictional heating of the airframe.
While these may reduce the IR signature somewhat, the fact remains the current gen IRSTs are also advancing at a fairly decent clip. The EF team with Pirate is fairly sanguine about it being able to detect the F-35. Note they don't make the same claim about the current X Band CAPTOR & so its not mere marketing hype.
Also, while IRST tech will no doubt continue to evolve, development in materials and redesign to meet higher IR goals also continues unabated (eg ADVENT/AETD program). Its too early to suggest that the balance will decisively tilt in favour of the sensor in the near future.
The balance is actually currently tilted towards the sensor. The only issue is that the sensor is not all weather. Ranging remains tricky (without complex maneuvering).
Note the USN jump to IRST for retrofit to their F/A-18s once it became clear that the AESA would not be enough against the new gen LO/VLO designs proliferating worldwide.
Maybe. Trouble is, there isn't enough information available publicly, to say one way or the other. Their limitations in the field of jet engine development are well known, but there's far more opacity in terms of design expertise or say.. progress on advanced composites.
The progress can be benchmarked via other programs worldwide and their advances in related fields locally. While their progress has been substantial, its not at the disruptive level yet.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Karan M »

Also, the F-35 is too dependent on lack of detection to do its work. Its a one trick pony in that sense. The FGFA/PAK-FA and F-22 are better in that they employ the kinematic advantage (fly high, fly fast, supermaneuverability) to drastically reduce the Pk of weapons launched at them. Its merely a matter of time before VLO platforms are countered. Russia has already begun deploying multi-band radars, and the next types of systems are also being evaluated. LPI radars are now increasingly vulnerable to modern ESM systems with wideband digital receivers. The F-35 with its well known speed, agility issues (as noted by RAND) will be vulnerable at that point.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by srai »

Aditya G wrote:Naval T-50K :wink:

Image

... aboard the successor to Kuznetsov class

Image

From: http://charly015.blogspot.in/2013/07/pr ... no-de.html

(Excellent site btw)
IMO, T-50K is not an optimal size for aircraft carriers. The USN with its CATOBAR super carriers found F-22 (even with modifications) unsuitable for carrier operations. T-50 is bigger than F-22.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

this one perhaps
http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to21.pdf

surprise sensation at the airshow was made
by the Urals Optical and Mechanical Plant
(UOMZ), which demonstrated the basic modules
of the integrated optronic system displayed
at MAKS 2011 as Product 101KS. According
to the materials disseminated during the show,
the T-50’s optronic system will comprise the
101KS-V IRST for aerial target acquisition,
identification, pinpointing and tracking, the
101KS-U aerial and ground situation awareness
subsystem, the 101KS-O optronic defensive
aids suite and the 101KS-N podded IRST.

for ground target acquisition, identification,
pinpointing and tracking.
UOMZ Director General Sergei Maksin
said at MAKS 2011 that the PAK FA’s optronic
system comprising a panoply of sensors “will
ensure total control of the situation around the
aircraft in all optical wavebands”, with some
of the sensors being “unique from the point of
view of both their performance and application
philosophy”. The complete system is supposed
to fit the third T-50 flying prototype.
The 101KS-V IRST will be installed in the
PAK FA at the place customary to Russian
fighters Su-27 and MiG-29 – the ball-type fairing
in front of the cockpit. The ball housing
the 101KS-O DAS subsystem, which is likely
designed to interfere with heat-seekers, will be set
on top the fuselage aft the cockpit. The 101KS-U
subsystem, designed for “providing the aircrew
with information on the situation in the air and
on the ground”, is likely a set of UV sensors
alerting the crew to missile launches. Finally, the
aircraft can be equipped with a pod housing the
101KS-N IRST to deal with ground targets.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Brando »

Viv S wrote: Also, while IRST tech will no doubt continue to evolve, development in materials and redesign to meet higher IR goals also continues unabated (eg ADVENT/AETD program). Its too early to suggest that the balance will decisively tilt in favour of the sensor in the near future.
It will always be easier and cheaper to detect EM signatures be they IR or radar than conceal it. Despite all the efforts toward reducing IR signatures, the real achievements have been marginal at best compared to the kind of advances made in minimizing radar signatures. At the end of the day, there is only so much you can do to conceal a 50+ inch engine delivering 100+KN of thrust at exhaust gas temperatures of close to 800C. Even skin friction cannot be minimized beyond a point because the aircraft desperately needs to dissipate heat.
Karan M wrote:Also, the F-35 is too dependent on lack of detection to do its work. Its a one trick pony in that sense. The FGFA/PAK-FA and F-22 are better in that they employ the kinematic advantage
This is a misconception many people have - the greatest asset of the F35 isn't its VLO properties but its massive sensor suite and intelligent sensor fusion capabilities that gives it tremendous situational awareness over adversaries. This improves the sensor to shooter loop over even kinetically superior foe as the F35 is all about "standoff" ranges. The sheer ability to process the massive amount and kinds of sensor data quickly into a simple intuitive interface already gives the F35 the advantage in observing, orienting and deciding before the higher, faster and quicker adversary can close to "act". With proper air combat strategies and tactics; that the USAF is sure to work out, the F35 will always leverage its advantages in greater situational awareness by denying the kinetically superior adversaries a chance to get into a position where they can use their strengths against it.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Singha »

while I completely agree with you about the sensor fusion and node in network of US which gives them huge advantages, India has and will have nowhere near such capabilities for the forseeable future and our units will have to attack with far less of offboard sensor fused data and EW help(no growlers for example).

so for India what is the equation between a independent rafale and a independent JSF - with meteor and jadraam .... the rafale is the better kinematic bird and imo more survivable in such a situation than JSF.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Karan M »

Brando wrote:This is a misconception many people have - the greatest asset of the F35 isn't its VLO properties but its massive sensor suite and intelligent sensor fusion capabilities that gives it tremendous situational awareness over adversaries. This improves the sensor to shooter loop over even kinetically superior foe as the F35 is all about "standoff" ranges. The sheer ability to process the massive amount and kinds of sensor data quickly into a simple intuitive interface already gives the F35 the advantage in observing, orienting and deciding before the higher, faster and quicker adversary can close to "act". With proper air combat strategies and tactics; that the USAF is sure to work out, the F35 will always leverage its advantages in greater situational awareness by denying the kinetically superior adversaries a chance to get into a position where they can use their strengths against it.
You are actually incorrect here, because there is nothing magical about the JSF's sensor suite or its "intelligent sensor fusion capabilities". If you look nto the topic, it becomes clear that sensor fusion is now available on a variety of airframes, several of whom currently boast a variety of operational sensors that exceed what the JSF has today, and can match what it will come with it, as they develop.

The Rafale for instance has a mix of OSF (TV/FLIR on offer/LRF), Passive/Active EW, AESA radar, and NG MAWS, plus off the rail IR Seeker heads - all of which are sensor fused by the MDPU central computer!

The PAKFA is to have 3 AESA Arrays, OLS/IRST, OLS-detectors, Passive/Active EW, OLS-DIRCM, wing mounted Long range L Band AESA (IFF/Detection both) - sensor fused with automatic "Pilot Aids" aka a Pilot Associate that assists the pilot for critical steps.

The EF has a Captor radar, an IRST, Active/Passive EW, active MAWS - sensor fused and a pilot assistance system that actually gives cues during combat about which maneuver to pull!!

F/A-18 EF is to receive a sensor fusion in its latest upgrade & so is the LCA. Point is that sensor fusion is no longer the be-all and end-all of things, albeit a very useful capability to have.

And the first one to have it? The Gripen.

The Rafale, EF, Gripen all possess sensor fusion already, each with significant tailor made capabilities. Sensor fusion at best tells you easily where all the threats are depending on your sensors. Active & Passive. Now, if there are enough active sensors that CAN detect you, and are arranged in a manner wherein you cannot avoid them, you have to either attack them or degrade their quality. All this talk of using greater situational awareness to gain a war winning advantage is pointless, because the other side is doing much the same, since they too have high fidelity sensors & sensor fusion too (the Su-35 has it as well, and so does the PAKFA).

As matter of fact, even obsolete aircraft without the onboard computing to run sensor fusion can receive a fully coherent view of the battlefield thanks to high speed datalinks like Link-16. You can merely plug into the network and see whatever the sensor fused AWACS sees.

The JSFs onboard avionics are sophisticated, but by themselves no longer undetectable. As mentioned before, wide channel digital RWRs are becoming mature & being disseminated. LPI A2A radars remain important - not all aircraft can afford these complex devices, but those that can will have them.

So the only way to operate is to actually degrade the sensor footprint of the opponent either jam it or attack it or reduce its range - the JSF does it via VLO.

Problem is that as more and more complex sensors proliferate (e.g. long range, high power, mulit-band, distributed AESAs), the chances of detecting a JSF rise by far. In which case, the JSF has to fly through "contested" airspace.

It is in this, where its greatest limitations lie, and because of which the RAND folks (one of whom was an experienced combat aviation professional) glumly noted, cant turn (i.e. outmaneuver its opponents or weapons directed at it), and can't run (because of its aerodynamics limitations, based on having to do the Marine mission and getting a honkin' big fan into the airframe & limiting the design of all three variants as a result).

The F-22 & FGFA don't suffer from these issues. Crudely put, it doesnt matter if they are detected, because as airframes they are still decided to go up their with the best & get the job done.

Now the vast majority of times the US/NATO go up with something like the JSF against an opponent, the JSF will walk over them, because few have the money or the technology to induct the range of counters that can detect a JSF. In that sense, its a winner already.

But that does not mean that it cannot be countered. The Russians, and to some extent the Chinese will be working on it. At the end of the day, VLO/LO airframes like the JSF bring an advantage in that, being lower RCS, the support assets required to support them reduce. Lesser jamming assets for instance. But support, they will still require if they have to do their mission.

So, if one sees the F2, T2,E, A chain - Find, Fix, Track, Target, Engage, Assess - chain. The first five are what the JSF addresses" by making itself hard to detect and engage. Now, if it can be found, and fixed... the rest all fall into place. The issue then is, can you still go ahead with minimal support? The F-22 and FGFA are designed around that, clearly. The JSF.. not so much. It would have been if it had come a decade back.. but now, its entering service as the shield is developing against it as well.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

The F-35 has two things that are - for the time being at least - superior to others:

* Situational awareness - not so much because of individual capability (which is better than anything out there IMHO), but mainly because of networking. I just do not think there is *anything* out there that compares with the F-35 when it comes to networking, and
* LO because of some canceling technologies. Speculative? Do not know. I am inclined to believe it for a few reasons, but we are not sure as we post. I have filed this one under time will tell.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Viv S »

Karan M wrote:While these may reduce the IR signature somewhat, the fact remains the current gen IRSTs are also advancing at a fairly decent clip. The EF team with Pirate is fairly sanguine about it being able to detect the F-35. Note they don't make the same claim about the current X Band CAPTOR & so its not mere marketing hype.
In all likelihood the IR signature will be lower than preceding aircraft. Also the EF team did claim that the Captor-E would be able to detect the F-35 (at 59km IIRC). The range claims for the PIRATE vis a vis the F-35 would be interesting to hear all the same.

The balance is actually currently tilted towards the sensor. The only issue is that the sensor is not all weather. Ranging remains tricky (without complex maneuvering).
Note the USN jump to IRST for retrofit to their F/A-18s once it became clear that the AESA would not be enough against the new gen LO/VLO designs proliferating worldwide.
The bigger issue as I see is that IRST despite their current proliferation are starting from a low baseline range. They do have their utility against LO/VLO targets but the ranges advertised by most manufacturers are vastly overstated. Particularly for subsonic targets in head-on or near head on conditions.

While exhaust temperatures for jet engines can be over 1000K (advertised detection ranges being achievable only at perfect aspects and conditions), frictional heating barely pushes the airframe's leading edges over room temperature.

Point I'm trying to make is that IRSTs cannot be relied upon to level the playing field against LO targets. That said, they do contribute to improving situational awareness (detecting missile plumes, flares etc) and are a valuable alternative for an aircraft forced to fly radar silent.

If however, revolutionary advances in IR technology are achieved down the line, the worst hit would likely be the Russians with the PAK FA and Su-27 family having substantially high IR characteristics.

The progress can be benchmarked via other programs worldwide and their advances in related fields locally. While their progress has been substantial, its not at the disruptive level yet.
Not disruptive level certainly. But I still want to access more information the J-20/31 programs before I can call it either way.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

A Ramjet missile model seen at Sukhoi Design Bureau office in Black ( via Jo )

Image
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Image
This profile view of the PAK FA illustrates the extensive shaping that has been done in an effort to reduce the usual radar-returning traps around the air intakes. Source: Sukhoi

PAK FA stealth features patent published

Details of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's work on the stealthy aspects of the T-50 PAK FA fighter aircraft emerged in late December 2013, when the company's patents were published.

According to the patent paperwork, taken together, all of the stealthy measures offer significant improvements over legacy fighter designs. The papers claim that the radar cross-section (RCS) of an Su-27 was in the order of 10-15 m 2 , with the intention being to reduce the size of the RCS in the T-50 to an "average figure of 0.1-1 m 2 ".

In common with other low observable aircraft designs, this reduction is achieved throught the use of radar-absorbing and radar-shielding materials and coatings, panel shaping (especially around the air intakes) and in the design of the junctions between moving elements, such as flaps and hatches.

In particular, the patent spells out the benefits of internal weapons carriage, s-shaped engine air ducts, (which were considered but are actually not implemented in the production PAK FA), and the use of radar blockers. It adds that the inlet guide vanes of the engines' compressors generate "a significant portion [up to 60%] of the radar cross-section of the airframe-powerplant system in the forward hemisphere" and that this is reduced by using radar-blocking devices and radar-absorbing coatings in the walls of the air ducts.

The shape of the airframe reduces the number of directions that radar signals are reflected in with the angles of sweep of the wings and the tail plane's leading and trailing edges, the edges of the air intakes and hatch covers being reduced and deflected from the aircraft's axis. Viewing the aircraft from the flank, the fuselage sides, lateral edges of the air intakes and vertical empennage are all deflected at the same angle.

Some openings and slots on the airframe's surface - such as the boundary-layer bleeds on the sides of the air intakes and the openings on the upper fuselage immediately aft of the cockpit - are covered with a thick grid, featuring a mesh of less than one quarter of the wavelength of a search radar, which reduces the reflections from these uneven surfaces. Gaps between the airframe elements are filled with conducting sealants, while the glazing of the cockpit canopy is metallised.

The surfaces of the PAK FA's own five radar arrays are also angled off from the vertical plane, helping to 'deflect' enemy radar signals. The covers of the radar arrays are selective, letting through their own signals, but blocking other frequencies. Additionally, the array compartments are edged with radar-absorbing 'curtains' to reduce possible leaks of these amplified signals.

Antennas are recessed from the surface of the skin to reduce protuberances (the vertical empennage serves as a communications antenna), while the turret of the aircraft's nose-mounted infrared search-and-track (IRST) sight is rotated backwards into a cruise position, exposing its rear hemisphere, which is covered with a radar-absorbing coating.

The release of this list of patents follows the July 2013 release of documentation covering the configuration of the fighter's integrated avionics suite.

There are currently five T-50 prototypes - the latest, T-50-5, first flew on 27 October 2013 - supporting the development programme and they are believed to have undertaken over 300 sorties to date.

In the 'Schedule of Activity for the Russian Ministry of Defence for 2013 to 2020' published in mid-2013, the PAK FA's Initial Operational Capability and the launch of full-scale series production is scheduled for 31 December 2016. The Russian National Armament Programme stipulates that 60 production PAK FA fighters will be delivered between 2016 and 2020.

The assembly of aircraft T-50-6-1 is nearing completion and three further aircraft (T-50-6-2, T-50-7 and T-50-8) are in build. One of the T-50-6 aircraft is intended for static trials and the other one is intended for flight testing.

Image
The PAK FA's designers have paid close attention to stealthy features, which include the use of radar-absorbent coatings on the reverse of the nose-mounted IRST, the widespread use of baffles and the use of absorbent coatings in the air intakes and at the junctions between moving surfaces. (Sukhoi)
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

would the RAM coating increase the IR signature, by the method of absorption to heat waves? why do they need RAM coating all around except those points where they expect the deflection will be a direct return within about +/- 30*?
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

The official patent filing on PAK-FA LO

http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/250/2503584.html
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

UAC promo on PMF and others

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

for any one interested in stealth , author is then Sukhoi Bureau Chief and director of the Institute of Theoretical and Applied Electrodynamics

Fundamental and Applied Problems STEALTH TECHNOLOGY
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by RSoami »

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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Eric Leiderman »

The IAF not being satisfied with the PAK-FA and FGFA

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20729

1) they have brought it down to 3 points
2) There is only enough green stuff for one of the two Rafael or FGFA
3) The french plane is now almost certain to go through
3) They are relying on the AMCA and are happy with the Avionics put together by DRDO and expect them
to be much better than Russian Maal in a few years.
4) It is being used as a bargaining chip

Point 1 is fm the article the others are deductions and may hold (more than a grain of) truth.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by SaiK »

^^full post:
http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=20729
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has done a stunning about-turn, sharply criticising the showpiece Indo-Russian project to co-develop a futuristic Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Even as New Delhi and Moscow finalise a $6 billion deal to co-develop an FGFA with capabilities tailor-made for India, the IAF has alleged the Russians would be unable to meet their promises about its performance.

So vital is the FGFA considered for the IAF's future that Defence Minister A K Antony has publicly rejected any prospect of buying the American fifth generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, declaring the FGFA would suffice. In 2007, New Delhi and Moscow highlighted the fighter's criticality by signing an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) placing the project above MoD procurement rules. Moreover, Indian scientists say the expertise gained from the FGFA will provide crucial momentum for developing an all-Indian fifth generation fighter, designated the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Yet, with so much riding on the FGFA, the IAF has taken aback the MoD with its complaint that it would not be good enough. On December 24, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."

Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting. The IAF's three top objections to the FGFA were: (a) The Russians are reluctant to share critical design information with India; (b) The fighter's current AL-41F1 engines are inadequate, being mere upgrades of the Sukhoi-30MKI's AL-31 engines; and (c) It is too expensive. With India paying $6 billion to co-develop the FGFA, "a large percentage of IAF's capital budget will be locked up."

On January 15, the IAF renewed the attack in New Delhi, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA. The IAF's deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), its top procurement official, declared the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and that the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints. In October 2012, then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, announced the IAF would buy only 144 FGFAs instead of the 214 that were originally planned. Having cut the numbers, the IAF is now questioning the very benefit of co-developing the FGFA with Russia.

Fifth-generation fighters are qualitatively superior to current "Generation 4.5" fighters like the Sukhoi-30MKI. They are designed for stealth, which makes these near-invisible to radar; they "supercruise", that is, fly at supersonic speed without lighting engine afterburners (which some current fighters like the Rafale also do); and they have futuristic avionics and missiles.

The MoD and HAL have countered the IAF's objections to the FGFA. Russian officials have clarified that the current prototype's engine, the AL-41F1, is a temporary solution to let the flight-test programme continue. A new engine being developed in Russia will eventually power both the FGFA and PAK-FA.

Officials also say the FGFA programme involves co-developing radar far superior to the one on current prototypes. The Russian Air Force wants conventional radar for its version of the FGFA, which looks only towards the front. The IAF wants two additional radars that look side-wards, allowing the pilot vision all around. Now the Russians are evaluating a similar requirement.

Asked for comments, the IAF has not responded. The MoD and HAL, who were requested for comments via email, have also remained silent.

While the MoD, HAL and the IAF continue discussions, Russia has gone ahead with developing a fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi Design Bureau has designed and done 300 test-flights of the T-50, the stealth fighter Sukhoi and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plan to refine into the FGFA in about eight years. The Russian Air Force, which has less ambitious specifications than the IAF, plans to induct into service its own version of the T-50, the PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or 'Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation') by 2017-18.

After the IGA of October 2007, a General Contract was signed in December 2008 between HAL and Rosoboronexport, Russia's defence exports agency. This laid out general principles of cooperation, such as work share, cost sharing and sale of the FGFA to third countries. In December 2010, a Preliminary Design Contract was signed, which led to the FGFA's basic configuration and selection of its systems and equipment. With that completed in June 2013, the crucial R&D contract is now being negotiated. This will encompass the actual design and development of the FGFA.
gorshkov redux!!!??
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

There has got to be more juice to this story. Just too bland.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

The IAF not being satisfied with the PAK-FA and FGFA

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20729
Too many flaws in the article to point out, Seems like Ajai Shuklaw at its best :mrgreen:

He probably needs to take a copy of Air International and get him self updated on PAK-FA development and where it stands
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Ajai Shukla seems to have morphed into mouthpiece of MOD babus against the Services - especially the IAF. Who can forget his rants on the PC-7 issue when his ridiculous assertions were thoroughly rebutted and yet he continued with his rants.

This article also looks in the same vein. And is interspersed with what items meant to inflame the issue. There is definitely more to this FGFA contract than meets the eye. I hope it does not become another screw-driver contract for HAL - and IAF may be objecting to the same. Plus, terms and conditions along with timelines need to be clearly outlined and understood by both parties - Russians in particular. I hope the development of new engine does not become another issue like the one for IJT.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Viv S »

rohitvats wrote:Ajai Shukla seems to have morphed into mouthpiece of MOD babus against the Services - especially the IAF. Who can forget his rants on the PC-7 issue when his ridiculous assertions were thoroughly rebutted and yet he continued with his rants.
He's outlined the objections of the IAF on the FGFA, a project that the MoD (and presumably HAL) is supportive of. That's hardly indicative of being an MoD mouthpiece against the services. Quite the opposite in fact.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

Viv S wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Ajai Shukla seems to have morphed into mouthpiece of MOD babus against the Services - especially the IAF. Who can forget his rants on the PC-7 issue when his ridiculous assertions were thoroughly rebutted and yet he continued with his rants.
He's outlined the objections of the IAF on the FGFA, a project that the MoD (and presumably HAL) is supportive of. That's hardly indicative of being an MoD mouthpiece against the services. Quite the opposite in fact.
I agree.

Besides he is talking from 2 meetings, that has to account for something.

And what the pak-fa does or does not really does not matter. Iaf requested some 40 c changes and if it all those are not being met.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Indranil »

I agree too.

I actually read the report twice. I found the report very balanced. The author barely provides his own judgement. He says IAF has questions regarding ToT, engines, radars, stealth, ROI. MoD and HAL have provided suitable answers for engines and radars. Notice that no arguments were provided for ToT, stealth and ROI.

Whereas I don't have questions regarding stealth, I do have questions about ToT and ROI.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

The one thing I find very, very interesting is the $18 billion for the Rafale. I wonder if that is the compromised price for this set of arguments.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by member_28041 »

Seriously, what did we really expect the russians to do? To part with their state of the art tech.
Not only russia, i don't think any country will do tech development for the benefit of any other country.
All we are expected is to write them a check of 36,000 crores to FUND their development. Nothing else.

If you want the tech, then develop it yourself. Pour a fraction of the $6Billion into AMCA or any other indigenous product and see the result.If we are expecting any country to help us, i think we are living in a dream land far away from reality.
Austin
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

The report has couple of flaws as far as technical description of PAK-FA is concerned but even if we leave that aside.

He ends the report stating "Asked for comments, the IAF has not responded. The MoD and HAL, who were requested for comments via email, have also remained silent."

So neither IAF or MOD/HAL would comment on , which is to say Ajai is relying on his source to give his version of the story which we do not know how reliable it is.
Indranil
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Indranil »

No, he says the the source of his story is the minutes of the meetings between IAF and MoD.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

indranilroy wrote:No, he says the the source of his story is the minutes of the meetings between IAF and MoD.
Thats his claim isnt it , he hasnt attached any document to prove the same.

And in MOD there must be many meetings on many projects and many MOM related to it.

Not stating his entire story is untrue or other wise but if he needs credibility to the story he should quote from IAF or MOD naming them. Else it would be a leap of faith to believe him.

There are other defence journo who interviews DRDO chief or Tejas Proj Dir to give credibility to their story
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Indranil »

Fair enough
rohitvats
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Viv S wrote: He's outlined the objections of the IAF on the FGFA, a project that the MoD (and presumably HAL) is supportive of. That's hardly indicative of being an MoD mouthpiece against the services. Quite the opposite in fact.
The tone and tenor of the article betrays which side he is batting on.

More than conveying the IAF's objections, it is how the same is conveyed. And the conclusion derived in the end. The whole article is reduced to one simple point in the end - that IAF is stalling FGFA because it wants Rafale. And how this approach is detrimental to the critical progress we can make in aviation field.

He simply points out what IAF's stand is for sake of presenting both sides but then quickly makes IAF the villain of the story. It is my opinion that the real issue of R&D+TOT is sought to be buried in the hubris about technical points raised by IAF - and alluding that these technical points themselves are either incorrect or being raised with malafide content of getting Rafale in service.

Sample these:
Yet, with so much riding on the FGFA, the IAF has taken aback the MoD with its complaint that it would not be good enough. On December 24, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."
Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting
. Where did he get hold of the MoM? IAF or MOD/HAL members? Whose side of the story is he representing?
Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints
. Not too much guesswork about source of the minutes of meeting on January 15 :roll:
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Viv S »

rohitvats wrote:The tone and tenor of the article betrays which side he is batting on.
The whole article sounds critical of the FGFA. If the IAF is critical of the FGFA program, it certainly seems like he's on the IAF's side.

More than conveying the IAF's objections, it is how the same is conveyed. And the conclusion derived in the end. The whole article is reduced to one simple point in the end - that IAF is stalling FGFA because it wants Rafale. And how this approach is detrimental to the critical progress we can make in aviation field.
That was one line, quoted to an MoD official. The article also makes it quite clear that the MoD is favorably disposed towards the FGFA.

He simply points out what IAF's stand is for sake of presenting both sides but then quickly makes IAF the villain of the story. It is my opinion that the real issue of R&D+TOT is sought to be buried in the hubris about technical points raised by IAF - and alluding that these technical points themselves are either incorrect or being raised with malafide content of getting Rafale in service.
On the contrary, it sounded like the Indian taxpayer was the victim here, being taken for a ride by Russians, despite objections from the IAF.


Sample these:

Yet, with so much riding on the FGFA, the IAF has taken aback the MoD with its complaint that it would not be good enough. On December 24, in a meeting in New Delhi chaired by Gokul Chandra Pati, the secretary of defence production, top IAF officials argued the FGFA has "shortfalls… in terms of performance and other technical features."
The article doesn't contradict the IAF's position about performance shortfalls. As for the MoD being taken aback, it just goes to show that its not as well informed as it ought to be.
Business Standard has reviewed the minutes of that meeting
. Where did he get hold of the MoM? IAF or MOD/HAL members? Whose side of the story is he representing?[/quote]

Prima facie, he deserves the benefit of doubt as far as his sources concerned.

Top MoD sources suspect the IAF is undermining the FGFA to free up finances for buying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated $18 billion, an acquisition that has run into financial headwinds because of budgetary constraints.
I'd imagine that's what his MoD sources said when pressed for a comment. Its not so much an issue as long when balanced with rest of the article, which is strongly supportive (though erroneously at points) of the IAF's position.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Viv S »

Austin wrote:Not stating his entire story is untrue or other wise but if he needs credibility to the story he should quote from IAF or MOD naming them. Else it would be a leap of faith to believe him.
The IAF's DCAS has been quoted (albeit not verbatim) criticizing the FGFA procurement. I'd imagine we'll hear a statement from the officer soon enough, if this isn't something that the minutes of the meeting bear out.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Austin »

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:Not stating his entire story is untrue or other wise but if he needs credibility to the story he should quote from IAF or MOD naming them. Else it would be a leap of faith to believe him.
The IAF's DCAS has been quoted (albeit not verbatim) criticizing the FGFA procurement. I'd imagine we'll hear a statement from the officer soon enough, if this isn't something that the minutes of the meeting bear out.
That would atleast give credibility to this story.

He should just interview HAL/MOD and IAF put both sides of interview verbatim and let the reader decide that would make it credible and would be as official as possible.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by vic »

It seems now Russians are getting the taste of medicine being given to LCA, HTT-40, IJT and Arjun. IAF evidently wants the super best which is not available anywhere in the world. IAF only makes exception for 1960s technology Hawk, Agusta bribe-land, Swiss cut Pilatus.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by NRao »

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:Not stating his entire story is untrue or other wise but if he needs credibility to the story he should quote from IAF or MOD naming them. Else it would be a leap of faith to believe him.
The IAF's DCAS has been quoted (albeit not verbatim) criticizing the FGFA procurement. I'd imagine we'll hear a statement from the officer soon enough, if this isn't something that the minutes of the meeting bear out.
I think the DCAS is as high as it gets.

When one considers other recent articles, this is a no brainer.

However, this is a quantum jump, wonder if it has to do anything with the new CAS.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by RKumar »

Are we not missing the main point, IAF do not want to deal with HAL. If HAL/ADA/DRDO has to develop FGFA, IAF has to make their own hands dirty and take responsibility. I guess, their opinion is we are war fighting institute and we can't waste our resources and take responsibility of maturing unproven equipments.

Like Russian have set lower bar for their PAK-FA and induct it in 2017-2020 time period. After that they will try to improve it in iterations. Once everything is sorted out, IAF will procure 144-200 PAK-FA in time 2022-2030 saying national security is in danger and show goes on.
RKumar

Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by RKumar »

Guys complain is for FGFA and not about PAK-FA. So please don't mix the products. Kill 2 products (FGFA and AMCA) with one stone. Excellent job and internal politics at best. :((
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by vic »

It seems like HAL with FGFA vs IAF with Rafale carrying on from HAL with HTT-40 vs IAF with PC-7. I think this is fight between two lobbies with their own agenda at heart.
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Re: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Post by Karan M »

Well, if those are the minutes of the meeting, it could be as simple as IAF pointing out current limitations of T-50 prototype/ initial build & HAL/MOD answering the rest of the details to the issues raised by IAF.

This usually happens.

Ajai might have just blown it a bit out of proportion adding inferences to why the IAF said what it did etc.

As long as the Govt is committed to funding both aircraft lines, it should be ok.

Alternative is to ditch the Rafale and double down on the T-50.
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