Su-30: News and Discussion

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 22 Jan 2014 23:18

At least 10 sqs are on the mkis, per public info: 2,8,15,17,20,24,30,31,102,220.
SB 331 was the highest serial noted publicly, but that doesnt mean much - there are gaps in how the mkis are serialed.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 00:04

Dennis wrote:At least 10 sqs are on the mkis, per public info: 2,8,15,17,20,24,30,31,102,220.
SB 331 was the highest serial noted publicly, but that doesnt mean much - there are gaps in how the mkis are serialed.

thanks for the information of the SQ strength. this means we have approx 210 birds flying. The tail numbers have a meaning.. it is...
SB01 thru SB18 were the original SU30Ks, rebranded SU-27s, without Canard or Thurust vectoring.
SB19 thru SB50 are the direct imports from Russia in the MKI standard. I think this might have continued after 50 too.
SB1xx to SB199 are the MKIs assembled in HAL Nashik with CKD kits imported fro Russia.
SB2xx to SB299 are the MKIs assembled in HAL Nashik with both local as well as parts imported from Russia
SB300 onwards are the MKIs built by HAL with completely local components and/or license built parts.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 23 Jan 2014 00:12

what about the 40 MKI order for strategic force?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 00:13

thanks to Dennis I was able to update my SU30 MKI ORBAT. The 10 SQs are 2,8,15,17,20,24,30,31,102 and 220. They are as follows

SQs at Pune (Anyone can confirm this)
SQ#20 Su-30MKI - Lightning (since 27 September 2002)
SQ#30 Su-30MKI - Rhinos (since 21 March 2005)
SQ#15 Su-30MKI - (NAME Unknown) New Raising which might move to Sirsa AFB, Sirsa, Haryana

SQs which moved out
SQ#2 Su-30MKI - Winged Arrows (Tezpur)
SQ#8 SU-30MKI - Pursoots (Bareilly AFB)
SQ#17 SU-30MKI - Pursoots (Bhatinda AFB)
SQ#24 Su-30MKI - Hunting Hawks (Bareilly AFB)
SQ#31 Su-30MKI - Lions (Jodhpur AFB)
SQ#102 Su-30MKI - Trisonics (Chabua)
SQ#220 Su-30MKI - Desert Tigers (Halwara)

Future SQs would go to Thanjavur, ANC, Kalaikunda, Pannagarh etc.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2014 00:20

Another observation:
mkis serialled 300 and higher seem to have a different avionics fit as well. I dont know the extent of the difference, but the most visible one is the rwr receivers on the wing leading edges. the older one have these buried in the wings or may not have them at all and the newer ones (300+) have them sticking out of the leading edges as dark gray bulbs.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 23 Jan 2014 01:07

@Shrinivasan
No.15 Sqn is Flying Lances, formerly flying MiG-21bis

John · Post by **John** » 23 Jan 2014 02:45

Austin wrote:
I dont think KS-172 has the energy needed to kill a sat atleast in the configuration it was shown , it looks more like Anti-AWACS/JSTAR , Anti-Fighter Aircraft LRAAM ........I believe the program was already shut down by Russian in favour of RVV-BD from rival design bureau and offset of R-37M since a significant work was done on R-37 program in 90's

There were brochure of RVV-BD shown with Flanker PAK-FA and even Mig-29 variant !

Yes KS 172 program is dead they tried to get funding from foreign partners (China, india etc) no one budged. Likely because unlike Yakhont-Brahmos (where Yakhont was tested was early as 95) the missile existed only in mockup and hence required extensive $$$ and was high risk. It was incorrectly picked up by DDM and made it seem like we are co-developing it which was never true it was just a proposal put forth by Novator.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jan 2014 02:50

Dennis wrote:Another observation:
mkis serialled 300 and higher seem to have a different avionics fit as well. I dont know the extent of the difference, but the most visible one is the rwr receivers on the wing leading edges. the older one have these buried in the wings or may not have them at all and the newer ones (300+) have them sticking out of the leading edges as dark gray bulbs.

Can you post pictures please to show the difference?

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2014 03:15

@Karan M:

On the wing leading edge just above and to the left of the su-30mki info board in this image from AI-2013 compared to the same wing region in this image.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 03:30

Dennis wrote:Another observation:
mkis serialled 300 and higher seem to have a different avionics fit as well. I dont know the extent of the difference, but the most visible one is the rwr receivers on the wing leading edges. the older one have these buried in the wings or may not have them at all and the newer ones (300+) have them sticking out of the leading edges as dark gray bulbs.

Dennis, I have seen many MKIs of the 300 series like 311, 323, 324 etc and have not been able to deduce where this "dark gray bulb" is. Do you mind pointing this out by way of a comparison with a 1xx and 2xx series bird? thanks in advance.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 03:34

Dennis wrote:@Karan M:

On the wing leading edge just above and to the left of the su-30mki info board in this image from AI-2013 compared to the same wing region in this image.

thanks... now I was able to to notice it...

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2014 06:09

Shrinivasan wrote: Dennis, I have seen many MKIs of the 300 series like 311, 323, 324 etc and have not been able to deduce where this "dark gray bulb" is. Do you mind pointing this out by way of a comparison with a 1xx and 2xx series bird? thanks in advance.

Interestingly, I don't have any links/pointers to pics of mkis in the 2xx range in my list. Could you please point me to a few pics of the mkis with 2xx serials?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2014 20:43

Dennis wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Dennis, I have seen many MKIs of the 300 series like 311, 323, 324 etc and have not been able to deduce where this "dark gray bulb" is. Do you mind pointing this out by way of a comparison with a 1xx and 2xx series bird? thanks in advance.
Interestingly, I don't have any links/pointers to pics of mkis in the 2xx range in my list. Could you please point me to a few pics of the mkis with 2xx serials?

Interestingly, I too have not seen many pics.. i located one link for you, see here @ http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.s ... entry=true
Probably the SB 2xx series birds are the supplementary order of 42 which was signed and they are manufactured in Russia. Maybe they are an enhanced model? maybe gurus know better. Let me check my archieves over the weekend and post some examples.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 23 Jan 2014 20:54

Thanks. I had not seen this one before.
This 252 (from 30L252) is the manufacturer construction number for the air frame which is different from the serial in service.
SB 141 was noted to have a cno of 30L246 at AeroIndia 2011, so my guess is that 30L252 ended up with a serial of SB 147 in service.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jan 2014 21:52

Dennis, the RWR position changes are because the original Tarangs were "masked" by the drooping nose & canards. There were concerns about performance & the IAF asked DARE to solve the issue. Finally, the Eagle Eye has been ordered from BEL. This is DAREs solution, it basically has 6 RWR antenna (versus 4 on earlier Tarangs) and is a derivative of the more modern R118 which is a more compact system as well. Expect to see additional antennae near the canards.

Coming to avionics differences, the last 42 Su-30 MKI ordered in Dec12/Jan 2013, will come with an upgraded Bars radar which is actually the definitive system asked for by the IAF. This upgrade, per reports with both hw and sw changes, was certified only in 2011 & 2012. The earlier Su-30 MKIs are all going to be upgraded to this standard thereafter. It also includes a new training mode.

The Super 30/ Phase 1 Bars upgrade is separate from the above & will be part of the Super 30 program which is yet to be signed. IMHO, given Bars performance, the IAF would rather spend on upgrades of more critical aircraft & also kick off the MMRCA deal. Its holding fire on the Super-30 for the following 3 reasons (IMHO):
- Existing performance is good, so no tearing hurry
- Capex required is substantial ($2Bn, so it will probably happen post MMRCA deal signing)
- Upgraded aircraft will have to be pulled off the flightline as the upgrades come in.. IAF has enough inductions & upgrades already going on, what they need to maintain are fighter numbers at a reasonable level (basically every Su-30 available counts)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jan 2014 04:48

Dennis wrote:@Karan M:

On the wing leading edge just above and to the left of the su-30mki info board in this image from AI-2013 compared to the same wing region in this image.

Dennis, good find indeed. Just checked my scribbled notes. That midwing position RWR is indeed the "Eagle Eye"/six channel R118 fit..and shows that it is in production after the solution was first detailed in 2011.

Contrary to what I had thought, the six antenna are distributed as follows - two on the front of the wings, two on the front of the vertical stabs, and two on the spine between the engines.
---
Also another interesting thing re the Super 30 program - IAF may apparently pick up bits & pieces of tech from Russia & elsewhere but the PVI work (aka the entire cockpit design - HOTAS, displays, navigation work etc is all being done inhouse.. looks like IAF may want to replace key parts of the Russian owned/managed avionics fit with its own design similar to what has been done for the LCA. No coincidence then that both Su-30 MKI upgrade & LCA MK2 make mention of the same IMA computers from DARE!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jan 2014 20:32

Dennis wrote:Thanks. I had not seen this one before.
This 252 (from 30L252) is the manufacturer construction number for the air frame which is different from the serial in service.
SB 141 was noted to have a cno of 30L246 at AeroIndia 2011, so my guess is that 30L252 ended up with a serial of SB 147 in service.

Interesting, thanks anyway... So the SB2xx series of birds seem to be a mystery.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 24 Jan 2014 20:52

Dennis wrote: Interestingly, I don't have any links/pointers to pics of mkis in the 2xx range in my list. Could you please point me to a few pics of the mkis with 2xx serials?

Shrinivasan wrote: Interestingly, I too have not seen many pics.. i located one link for you, see here @ http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.s ... entry=true
Probably the SB 2xx series birds are the supplementary order of 42 which was signed and they are manufactured in Russia. Maybe they are an enhanced model? maybe gurus know better. Let me check my archieves over the weekend and post some examples.

i do not follow this but it seems there is no 2xx series. pretty good info here.

http://www.mars.slupsk.pl/fort/sukhoi/su-30-in.htm

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jan 2014 21:33

Shrinivasan, Karan, Dennis;

I am bit lost on the difference between Super-30 order, SFC order and additional 42 order. Are these are all same or different?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Jan 2014 22:02

Aditya, Super 30 is an upgrade which is still being worked out. Russia & India have held several discussions on it, DARE has begun work on it with an assigned IAF project director, but its not been finalized yet. What we do know is that Su-30 should allow new weapons and will have a new glass cockpit, new radar, and new EW. The new weapons also "mention" Brahmos capability.As to which aircraft would be given the Super 30 upgrade, reports noted that the first 50 (hence the oldest and in line for a MLU) and the newest on order (the last 42, hence easier to build to revised specs) would be the first to get it. Overall some 92 -110 Su-30s would get this as Phase 1 upgrade, the rest would be given further advancements based on FGFA tech (such as an AESA). NIIP (MKI radar provider) said it had proposed the same approach with Phase 1 boosting the Bars (Irbis style upgrade); other reports noted that IAF was keen on AESA in Phase 1 itself and might take the Zhuk AE (Phazatron has never confirmed this). Net, the upgrade is still WIP and its clear features have not been released to us.

SFC Su-30 MKIs again, were reported by the press but not clearly mentioned as which airframes. Some reports mentioned the last 42 would be available for "strategic tasks".

The last 42 Su-30 MKIs ordered in Jan-13/Dec 12 - are to come with an upgraded Bars radar (this is derived from IAF specs as in the original agreement and product improvement and not the Super 30 upgrade mentioned above), which will subsequently be applied fleet wide. There have been reports that 40 aircraft will be Brahmos capable (which automatically led to an association with the 42 Su-30 MKIs, as it was originally a 40 plane order + the 2 attrition replacements).
Plus, I think Pillai made some reference to this in an AI speech.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... -su-30mkis
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... he-brahmos

Again, note 2 aircraft as trials + 40 more upgraded later.
http://www.forceindia.net/SupersonicPunch.aspx

Thing is per some reports most of these modifications were worked out by HAL itself as Sukhoi was busy with T-50. So its a good question wherein Su-30s locally will be built to these standards or we "need" the new Su-30s coming in from Russia for these.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Jan 2014 10:26

Would the upgrade feature a strengthened undercarriage and probably a dual wheeled landing gear like Su34 / Mig 31? Would you at least expect it to be there even if there is no info in the open source.

VV Thanks for the info.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2014 12:29

I dont think the undercarriage may be replaced - as you mention,
one - open source doesnt mention anything about this, and second, check out Su-30MK2.
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/popup.wbp?picp ... _b_eng.gif
Centerline can carry upto 2.5T for this particular strike variant of the Su-30 (see FAB-250).

Even if MKI currently cant and has to be strengthened, both MKI & MK2 have similar looking landing gear, and MKI too was strengthened for a total payload of 8T and a MTOW of 38.8T.

What we are likely to see is aircraft structure being strengthened and IAF agreeing to it for some 40 aircraft alone. As it impacts aircraft empty weight, and will lower MTOW, and also marginally impact aero performance of a loaded MKI (mod.) vs loaded MKI (original).

As an interesting sidenote, the MKI carries heavy equipment which if replaced with lighter systems (and FBW can be modified accordingly, as Cg etc will change) bodes well for upgrades. The Bars weighs in at a whopping 650 kg!! As such MKI in the future can easily accomodate a heavy AESA set with a cooling mechanism as long as it fits in the same volume (and Bars is not small either).

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 25 Jan 2014 19:39

As an interesting sidenote, the MKI carries heavy equipment which if replaced with lighter systems (and FBW can be modified accordingly, as Cg etc will change) bodes well for upgrades.

An interesting observation Karan... If the IAF shows the same zeal in weight reduction on the MKI as it shows on the LCA, HAL can slowly embark on a weight reduction program by replacing certain mettalic parts by Composites and this weight reduction can benefit payload...

One area of weight reduction could be the PYLONS, currently they look humungous...another UNRELATED area is for DRDO to come up with leaner and meaner Missiles and BOMBS ALA SDBs

Any thoughts on this?

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 25 Jan 2014 23:25

Aditya,
Echoing what Karan M has said about the Super-30 upgrade, my read is that it is still in the works and will be applied fleetwide when it is finalized (perhaps after the present production run is completed).
The SFC airframes, I think, are not a separate order and will be drawn from the ones already in the works. I am not sure there will be much that will be different on these other than some more safeguards for SFC use. And those mods we will probably never hear about.

Now the image Shrinivasan posted of 30L252 taken in Irkutsk in 2009 has me confused. When were additional airframes ordered from Irkutsk? My information suggests that HAL has been producing the MKI since 2004 with orders of 140 (2000 order)+ 40 (2007 order) + 42 (Dec 2012 order).

There is the matter of the 18 K/MKs that were to be replaced by MKIs starting 2006, but August 2009 seems to be late for these deliveries. And were these to be sourced as fully built airframes from IAPO? And if the serials for these are also in the SB 1xx range then there is no way for us to know which ones are HAL manufactured and which ones are direct supply from IAPO.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Feb 2014 16:22

*‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’*
*General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan*
FORCE October 2009 www.forceindia.net*

*Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.

*What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?*

Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

*What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?*

As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

*Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?
*
Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

*Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?
*
They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

*Does the radar come directly from Russia?*

No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

*Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?
*
The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

*As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?*

No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

*What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?
*
Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.

A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

*Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?*

Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

*What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?*

This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

*Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?
*
Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Feb 2014 16:52

Another data point , This in Nov 2011

Desi Sukhoi performs supersonic ballet on debut | Aircraft built from complete raw material phase makes a silent entry

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Feb 2014 02:19

^^^

Now if raw materials could also be made indigenously then that would be an icing on the cake.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2014 04:55

srai wrote:^^^

Now if raw materials could also be made indigenously then that would be an icing on the cake.

from the interview

Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 03 Feb 2014 08:33

Austin wrote:*‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’*
*General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan*
FORCE October 2009 http://www.forceindia.net*

*Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed.
...
At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment.
...
*Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?
*
Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on.
...
*Does the radar come directly from Russia?*
No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.
{This seems to not entirely true - IIRC we import the entire antenna unit. Now for a PESA set, if the antenna itself is imported as a single unit, how much is left in real "manufacturing". Surely the TWT would be also imported as single item, or max as CKD form, as it will not be economical to build up an elaborate manufacturing line for high-power TWTs - but I digress!!}
...
*What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?
*
...
The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling.
...

See Austinji, how he just mentions SCB etc and immediatly switches to Ti etc - obviously for a plane made primarily of Ti, getting the the required manufacturing knowhow was crtical - and Ti machining, millling etc etc is quite a complex technology in itself (and Russians are absolutely No. 1, there) - so it's quite natural we get those Ti based manufacturing technology from Russia, and we did.

But how is that relevant to SCB (mentioned here)?
The HPT blades will be made of some Ni-based casted superalloy while the HPT disk must be some other Ni-based wrought superalloy. The entire lifecycle of producing the ingots, to mill them to forge and cast them is completely diff and is where the essentials of IP lies. Ti in this turbofan would most probably have got used in the LPC Fans - beyond that it should be all Ni-based superalloys (including atleast the later stages of the HPC, if not all stages of HPC as well).

Now that's hard-earned decades worth of solid R&D based IP - Russians wouldn't have parted that tech and we shouldn't really expect them to do (frankly) - nobody does it, why should Russians oblige?

So the question remains exactly what aspect of HPT blades do we "manufacture" in India?

Betw do note, this info maybe dated, but the tumb-rule used to be that approx 20% of the cost of a Turbofan are the HPT Blades (followed closely by the HPT discs and LPT blades and discs). Why do you expect Russians (or for that matter anybody else) would part such a high-value tech - certainly not for "friendship" etc that gets touted here!!

In the context of the Kaveri, we wanted that tech (including other very crucial tech in the Compressor stages etc) but instead the offer was "here take this M88 core, joint-develop other peripherial stuffs like the casings, afterburner/combustor liners, FADEC software etc and pay the required royalty" and be done with it.

Thankfully, IAF saw thru this charade and put its foot down ... but those stuff are for other threads.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Feb 2014 10:17

Note the whole under carriage is also imported which would include landing gear. It further seems all actuators, ejection seats, hydraulics are also imported. Note:- Raw material DOES NOT MEAN billets and ingots, it means components which are assembled together. Basically our contribution to Su-30 MKI at component level is around 10%, same as Brahmos missile. But it is better than AL-55 where we don't even have assembly rights for first 100 engines even though we paid for it's R&D. And it is similar to Shakti engine where we will have only assembly right till first few hundred engines and any limited manufacturing is way way way in distant future.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 03 Feb 2014 12:05

vic wrote:Note the whole under carriage is also imported which would include landing gear. It further seems all actuators, ejection seats, hydraulics are also imported. Note:- Raw material DOES NOT MEAN billets and ingots, it means components which are assembled together. Basically our contribution to Su-30 MKI at component level is around 10%, same as Brahmos missile. But it is better than AL-55 where we don't even have assembly rights for first 100 engines even though we paid for it's R&D. And it is similar to Shakti engine where we will have only assembly right till first few hundred engines and any limited manufacturing is way way way in distant future.

[OT] OT for the ongoing discussion on SU30, however I still couldn't get how Brahmos is relevant in the current discussion? What do you mean by "Our contribution is only 10% in Brahmos" - is that based on the cost, total number of components or the complexity of the work?

Brahmos is a JV where Russia holds 49.5% stake, so whats the problem in acquiring engine and seeker from there? Do you think buying an engine, seeker and "build the container and some body parts" (as posted by you, earlier) would be enough to make a supersonic cruise missile that can be fired from Land, Surface, subsurface and can hit the target in the middle of the bullseye? If so why weren't other countries like Vietnam etc are not trying/able to replicate the same?
[/OT]

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 05 Feb 2014 11:11

Austin wrote:Another data point , This in Nov 2011

Desi Sukhoi performs supersonic ballet on debut | Aircraft built from complete raw material phase makes a silent entry

I am not sure if the SU30 MKI shown in the above article is from the lot of completely manufactured from Raw Materials... See its tail number?!? It is SB161, i think the SB3xx series are the ones completely manufactured/assembled from raw materials co-sourced from Russia and India...

The Interview posted earlier (if True) actually lays it bare our limitations WRT aircraft manufacturing, supports Dassaults gripes about HAL... Afd above all explain our slow (but steady) progress with tejas...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2014 19:46

>>>{This seems to not entirely true - IIRC we import the entire antenna unit. Now for a PESA set, if the antenna itself is imported as a single unit, how much is left in real "manufacturing". Surely the TWT would be also imported as single item, or max as CKD form, as it will not be economical to build up an elaborate manufacturing line for high-power TWTs - but I digress!!}

IIRC we dont import the antenna but a couple of LRUs like the HF Receivers.
The N011M is a beast of a radar with many separate LRUs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2014 19:56

vic wrote:Note the whole under carriage is also imported which would include landing gear. It further seems all actuators, ejection seats, hydraulics are also imported. Note:- Raw material DOES NOT MEAN billets and ingots, it means components which are assembled together. Basically our contribution to Su-30 MKI at component level is around 10%, same as Brahmos missile. But it is better than AL-55 where we don't even have assembly rights for first 100 engines even though we paid for it's R&D. And it is similar to Shakti engine where we will have only assembly right till first few hundred engines and any limited manufacturing is way way way in distant future.

Situation is not that bad (luckily)...

The actuators are made in India by a private firm under TOT.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8Ydfos7xAPw/U ... ndor-1.jpg

The undercarriage was to be made in India IIRC & HAL has the capability to do so (eg LCA or the Jaguar) but for accelerated production HAL did not push for it either, and it was decided to move them back to Sukhoi. This is referenced in an earlier interview.

Another interview mentioned that unlike the original plan to have local systems at 80-90% TOT for around 100 airframes, HAL was moving to some 60% and would move to original % planned only in the last 60 or so airframes of 180 total. This was driven by the IAF displeasure at the slower rate of production of the MKI, and we went from 2017-18 to 2014-15, but of course more & more Su-30s were added (82 more to be precise).

Raw materials does mean billets and ingots - unless one is talking about specific systems (eg microelectronics/Intel microprocessors, memory modules etc) which cannot be made in India but anyway those are COTS ww.

Our contribution to MKI (~2012) is around 50%.

The good thing is that a lot of private firms are now involved so HAL has many options for sourcing components. Note the situation has changed from the interview and the contribution has moved upwards.

HAL, January 4 2013 wrote:According to a HAL official, 157 Indian vendors are involved in providing 13,350 components of the Su-30MKI, while another 19,450 components are manufactured at HAL’s Nasik and Koraput divisions.

Some examples:

Aerospace components:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dYJgR1Ecj0w/U ... ndor-2.jpg
Maini Group :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uciEtbn2W2E#t=164

Avionics (import substitution): eg SLN and SAMTEL
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cAV_KWyoeZA/U ... ndor-3.jpg
http://samtelgroup.com/cache/SHDS_MFD_approval.pdf

To aerostructures:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--Hhs_pv52QU/U ... ndor-4.jpg
http://www.dynamatics.com/daero.shtml
major Airframe Structures for the Sukhoi 30 MKI Fighter Bomber

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 05 Feb 2014 20:38

The serial is photochopped in these pictures. Not sure why that was done for a HAL production airframe unless they wanted to not disclose the real production level at that time.

Shrinivasan wrote:
Austin wrote:Another data point , This in Nov 2011

Desi Sukhoi performs supersonic ballet on debut | Aircraft built from complete raw material phase makes a silent entry
I am not sure if the SU30 MKI shown in the above article is from the lot of completely manufactured from Raw Materials... See its tail number?!? It is SB161, i think the SB3xx series are the ones completely manufactured/assembled from raw materials co-sourced from Russia and India...

The Interview posted earlier (if True) actually lays it bare our limitations WRT aircraft manufacturing, supports Dassaults gripes about HAL... Afd above all explain our slow (but steady) progress with tejas...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2014 20:59

Another possible area where a lot of pvt firms can play a huge role is in modernizing some of the avionics systems. Even the OLS-30, while it has a respectable performance, can be updated with the latest processors, modern PCBs etc. Its basically an update of the earlier OLS-27 on the Su-27. Significant weight savings & reliability improvements on the processing side are possible. These are the sort of projects HAL should (IMHO) pursue, with pvt firms/SMEs who have done a lot of this reverse engineering plus technology update work for IAF, IN aircraft.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Feb 2014 21:08

^^ They should just go for OLS-35 for Super 30 or subsequent MKI upgrade

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/10/o ... amily.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Feb 2014 21:26

Thing is how long do we depend on Russia? While OLS 35s for Super-30 upgrades (Phase 1) are fine, I hope HAL ropes in pvt vendors, hands them any spare OLS-30s and says here, show us what you can do.
A Bangalore based firm, did a reliability analysis of Kopyo and worked on improving the most failure prone modules.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 09 Feb 2014 02:16

Austin wrote:^^ They should just go for OLS-35 for Super 30 or subsequent MKI upgrade
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/10/o ... amily.html

And we would continue to be dependant on Russia for ever... A better approach would be to get a desi lab to create an equivalent OLS-30 and get it lnboard coupld of platforms forevaluation....whatwe end updoing is subject ourlocal products to endless 4 seasons tests and importing faulty foreign products based on Brochure Specs...

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Feb 2014 04:48

^^^

... especially since they will be in service for the next 30 to 40 years. Indigenous solutions need to be developed.