Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

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Rahul Mehta
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Rahul Mehta »

IndraD wrote:BJP is some how downplaying issue of evm
So what CT do you offer? The CT I propose is that Rockefellar-Rothschild aka MNC-owners have told BJP-leaders NOT to oppose EVMs. And given the control MNC-owners have over paid-media and paid-Supreme-judges, the BJP-leaders have till now decided to cow down. If this CT is below your standard, then what CT do you offer?
Supratik wrote:What has happened to Delhi electing AAP for CG when they haven't even ruled Delhi for 100 days?
Wot is CG?

Paid-media has convinced Delhite that "AK is the only person doing something". And it is a FACT that BJP\Congress leaders are NOT doing anything on any issue , be Bangladeshi or Nigerians or drugs or nuisances neighborhoods suffer due to commercial sex etc etc. And it is also a FACT that BJP\Congress leaders have sold out to corruption problem. AK-420 is no different. But since he is new, it is possible for paid-media to project him as clean, concerned etc etc. And paid-media is generating same feelings across middle class voters in India So today, Delhi is gone. In next few weeks, much of Indian middle class will become AK-420's supporters. Solutions? One solution is that NDA can give 300 Loksabha tickets to MNC-agents. Another solution is that BJP-leaders can actually tale some REAL actions to address real problems. And third solution I propose is that Nationalist activists should ask BJP-leaders to take REAL steps to reduce REAL problems, and when they refuse, walk out on them and start taking REAL steps to reduce real problems. And nationalists should stop slogan shouting and mark wearing, and confine to REAL steps to solve REAL problems
Suraj wrote:The BJP on its own would never be such a strong challenger in these polls. They'd be quite incompetent, in fact. They owe their current popularity to Modi. People will vote for lotus to get Modi in power, even if they don't really care for lotus otherwise.
The current popularity is 10% due to NaMo and 90% due to paid-media i.e. money BJP paid to paid-media to highlight NaMo as solution to everything and anything. Instead of improving reality, BJP-leaders depended on paying paid-media to create a hype. And now MNC-owners are able to successfully beat BJP-leaders with same paid-media game.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

good post nageshks, in addition one has to look at the repeated rape of genuine indic (sdre/core indics) freedom by kala angrez gov, which has mutilated the very fabric of freedom by its widespread excessive corruption model interlaced with bad governance, and well managed by mafia organization from RE sector to administrative setups.

people realized the bad message kala angrez is driving in the name of hindutva and communalization of facts that did not exists at all in the first place. modi is a fear factor, came out of by shear performance (think about the $h!t he has go thru to make people realize wtf they are in .. see once you are in bed with fish basket, you will lose the sense of fish smell).. and making many things clear by focused governance dynamics to growth (it requires deep breath, and swim to clear water where no dead fishes live... aha movements, and then apply those to establish hey.. here is a better way to live.).

the other problem is half of desh were down the trodden lines, where one can't expect them to think.. now that they have started seeing the truth behind, and tasted what one could live like in westernized society (not westerinization by way of smashign indic-ness).. but advancement of the society and culture. adaptive learnings, and application of technology, resources, knowledge, and the whole business of applied economic model.

all that one has to do engage the right minds, empower the 3d vision, and things will happen automatically if the governance architecture does not carry stupidity. rest is only execution.

yes.. bless modi to get the 272+.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

nageshks wrote:
Suraj wrote: The reason Modi gets so much attention is that he's already been through a lot of trials and tribulations, and has still not lost his original abilities or motivations. People respect his strength of conviction and ability to put his head down and get things done, even if they don't agree with everything about him, or know or care about every bit of his message. They like the fact that he puts his head down and gets things done without seeking everyone's approval all the time. The recent poll survey indicating how much 'communalism' as an issue affecting him has decreased, is quite telling.

The BJP on its own would never be such a strong challenger in these polls. They'd be quite incompetent, in fact. They owe their current popularity to Modi. People will vote for lotus to get Modi in power, even if they don't really care for lotus otherwise. The BJP should not forget that, because they still have a lot to fix within the party. As a party they're yet to get over 2004, and all their current momentum is due to one man and the attention he commands of the country. The last time India 'voted for the man' was back in Indira's or Nehru's days. Even Rajiv came in largely on a sympathy vote instead of anything to do with himself, since he was an unknown. In BJPs last administration people voted for the movement, not specifically for ABV as is the case now.
There is a second factor to NaMo's popularity. Ever since Manmohan Singh's image shattered, there has been no one to espouse the governance/economy vote. If you think back, what the BJP is doing today is very similar to what they tried to do in the early 80s (1980 and 1984 elections). When the Janata party split up in the aftermath of the fall of Morarji Desai's government, what emerged as the BJP was the combination of most of the Jan Sangh (which was all about protection of the interests of the Indics - I won't say Hindus, because Jan Sangh fought as much for the rights of the Sikhs and Jains as the Hindus) and much of the Swatantra Party (which was all about right wing economics, governance, individual rights, etc). In the early 80s, the BJP attempted to fight elections exactly on the plank they are doing now - a combination of Indic interests, good governance and developmental economics. However, owing to the fact that the 80 and 84 elections centred around two very emotive issues (80 was all about disgust with the Janata Party components and an extreme sense of betrayal about the way they had fallen apart and 84 was all about sympathy for Indira Gandhi's death), their experiment failed. Then it was centred around some capable administrators like Vajpayee, Sikander Bakht, Shekhawat, etc (and believe me, this bunch was at least as capable as NaMo).

However, by the late 80s, the Hindu part had more or less completely dominated the governance part. People only saw the BJP as the `Indic party', a bunch of crazy saffronites, who were all about bashing the minorities, etc. In one sense, given what India was going through in the late 80s (Shah Bano, Babri Masjid mess started by the Congress, Mandal, etc), it was needed. But, nevertheless, BJP's Ram temple agenda received more attention than their economic policies, and people voted because they emotionally identified with the Hindutva. When Vajpayee government failed to do anything with regard to the Hindutva agenda, there was widespread disenchantment, and the two subsequent elections (2004 and 2009) were lost.

Today, what has happened is that both the Hindutva and the governance parts have been united in the person of NaMo in a sensible whole. He is showing the way forward, and has been able to balance both the Hindu interests and the governance+business interests. This is a great thing in that the man, as long as he is around, will probably be able to unite the two parts within himself. But what we need (and what has already begun happening - people like Chauhan, Raman Singh, Manohar Parrikar, and Gen. Bhuvan Chandra Khanduri, etc) is a whole horde of people in whom the two sides can be united and balanced. Consequently, he is not only getting the Hindutva people to volunteer and help with his campaign, he has also been able to take the Swatantra Party type people with him. This is the secret behind the lotus blossoming in the south. While much of the south has never been hot about Hindutva, it is always very interested in good governance. While many south Indians are devout Hindus in personal life, few are enamoured about wearing their religious identity on their sleeve. My sister who is with her in-laws in Kozhikode tells me that there are more BJP flags than any other party's in a city that is a Communist bastion. Centred around business interests, who will also help Hindutva within limits (many minorities are not inimical to Hindu interests), the BJP can become the true right wing party in Indian politics, and what is happening is what I had always hoped would happen - the amalgamation of the Swatantra party and the Jan Sangh parts into one unified coherent force.

Now it is for NaMo to give further direction to this unified group, that has genuine reverence for him, and also fashion the party into an economically sound, culturally strong force, that can take with it all nationalists. He should focus on building a team of competent people, particularly for CMs and ministers of states (this is the pool from which further talent will be drawn). The PM should be the first among equals, with an extremely capable team around him.

I wish NaMo all the best.
Nagesh saar,
what a co-incident! Me and my bro were thinking on similar topic yesterday night. But, we were thinking from the kongis case.

In your analysis, you did not factor in the kongis trajectory. If you factor that in, then you will see why the lotus did what it did. The biggest USP of the kongis was that it has no ideology, nothing. Its supposed to be a big tent where anyone and everyone can congregate. The only rider is that their leadership is fixed: dynasty.

In contrast, lotus has a clear ideology and views. It has no fixed leadership. The leadership can change.

In the kongi model, they always disproportionately favoured the abrahanics. But, in earlier generations, there was atleast some nautanki to show that they were balanced. So, some biscuits were thrown for the Hindhus to lap up. Now, most Hindhus did recognize that the abrahanics were being pampered, but they tried to be 'magnanimous' about it by satisfying themselves with the few biscuits that were thrown for them while the abhranics got the entire bread packets.

But, with the italians, the kongis have stopped throwing even the occasional biscuit for the Hindhus. Infact, they go on to invent 'saffron terror'. This is opening the eyes of many people who are starting to see that there seems to be a clear anti-Hindhu agenda.

As long as the kongis projected themselves as a centrist party(with lotus and left being either extreme), lotus had to project hardcore persona to register Hindhu credentials among voters. Once the kongis completely abandoned even the pretense of being a centrist party and went whole hog with their 'secularism', lotus does not have to project the hardcore persona anymore. Even NaMo doesn't project it anymore. He just has to do some wink wink nod nod at his Hindhuthva supporter base to send them signals that he still abides by them. And they are satisfied.

So, lotus' evolution is tied to the evolution of the kongis.

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I don't think its correct to say that south-Bhaarath is somehow less Hindhuthva than north-Bhaarath. The difference was the higher population of the peacefuls. The higher population of peacefuls in north, exposes the Hindhus towards their antics and makes them yearn for someone who stand up for the Hindhu cause.

This is seen in AP. In AP, Thelangana region, lotus always had a good presence because of higher number of peacefuls in Thelangana. Compared to that, rest of the south-Bhaarath does not have much peaceful population.

So, why will people want a cure, if they don't have a disease? Thats why south-Bhaarath was not enthusiastic about lotus. Even then, the response to Raam Mandhir was quite phenominal in much of south-Bhaarath. And lotus did throw it away instead of building on it.

Now, what is happening is that the number of peacefuls and lovelies(and their disproprotionate noise levels) has increased tremendously in south and east(Vangal). This has created people who are looking for lotus to be their champion. These areas will now support lotus for Hindhuthva stance more than economic development angle.

Infact, I would say that lotus is against wasting the opportunity by not taking up a more robust Hindhuthva stand in these areas to build itself.

The only exception to the above theory is the north-east where despite the large number of lovelies, lotus did not gain traction with the Hindhus.

----
Based on the same theory, I would say that if the Bhaarath was united in 47, then lotus would have gained. The division helped the kongis. It hid the actual demographic situation in greater Bhaarath region. And Hindhus lived in an illusion and ignorance of their actual demographic percentage decrease due to genocide of Hindhus in Bakisthan and BD. And the rapid increase of demographics in Bhaarath of the abhranics.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by subhamoy.das »

The difference between 2004 and 2014 is an old AVB and charging NAMO! The difference between 2004 and 2014 is a decade of bad governance and a strong anti-congress mood. The difference between 2004 and 2014 is PAAP which is actually turning out to be BJP B team. In 2004, if u look through the polls, they did predict problems for NDA.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Suraj wrote:Very good post nageshks. I would like the BJP to take up the mantle of the erstwhile Swatantra Party and the Jan Sangh. However they have not really done so. All of their competence and popularity centers upon one man right now, at the national level. They're doing much better at the state level, where they have a collection of leaders who espouse a similar governance + Indic base - Shivraj Singh Chouhan in MP and Raman Singh in C'garh for example. However, they cannot win at the national level consistently without a broader base of leaders following the same political position.

Between 2004 and 2012-13, can one honestly explain what the difference between BJP and Congress was at the national level, other than names ? They never were a good opposition in Parliament, and I would rate the CPI(M) within UPA-1 as a better opposition party, in fact :) The BJP should let go of its inhibitions and take up the right-of-center inclusive Indic position with an emphasis on governance and economic growth, whole heartedly. The Swatantra Party itself may have been too far ahead of its time, without a demographic base to support their stand, but India in 2014 would benefit greatly from a revival of their economic policies.
Suraj-ji,
I quite agree with you about the BJP at the centre. However, you are overlooking two major problems with regard to their failure as the opposition. The men (and women) who led the opposition in the Centre from 2004-2012 were the ones who were associated with Vajpayee, and his agenda. Whether we like it or not, the Vajpayee government came to power on the strength of the Hindutva agenda, and on that score, they all failed dismally. Not one of their promises was accomplished, and with the Hindutva crowd, the BJP leadership at the Centre had totally lost credibility. The men and women associated with Vajpayee (especially the upper echelons of the BJP Central leadership) were, consequently, irrevocably compromised.

To make matters worse, they were pitted against MMS (who had ensured good economic growth in his first term - it may have been the lingering effect of the NDA policies, but nevertheless, people saw no difference in the administrations of the Congress and the BJP) in 2009. The BJP, between 2004 and 2012, was just a pale imitation of the Congress and there was no real difference. The Communists looked like a real opposition, because they could ideologically oppose many of the economic policies of the Centre. The economic disasters of the UPA were yet to bear their bitter fruit in 2009, and very few people had realised the true devastation unleashed by the populist economics of the UPA. The BJP could not really oppose the minority appeasement by the Congress, because they had been too timid when they had been in power. The opposition by the BJP would be credible only if it was led by someone who had impeccable Hindutva credentials, and that someone could not be a man associated with the Vajpayee government.

By 2010-2011, most of the lingering effect of the good administration of the NDA was gone, and the UPA's disastrous policies were beginning to bear fruit. Sop after sop, idiotic populism, and scam after scam began arising. But the BJP could not oppose because a few bad apples in the BJP were unearthed, and a successful campaign to equate the horrendous sins of the Congress with the few of the BJP was unleashed. In comparison to the billions looted by the Congress, the BJP's own crimes were peanuts. Nevertheless, there were a few, and they could not be denied. So, the BJP's opposition looked to be rank opportunism. Consequently, the only effective BJP opposition to the Congress could come from one who was not in the Centre in 2004, and who still carried credibility with the Hindutva folks.

This is where NaMo came. Not only was he an outcast in the political arena for his pro-Hindu sentiments, but also he had a reputation for personal integrity and good business oriented policies. NaMo's popularity is not so much his own doing as the timing too. Fifteen years ago, when the BJP still had recognised Hindutva faces and credibility among the Hindutva afficionados, NaMo would have been unremarkable. Today, Hindutva forces are under siege - false terror charges, evangelism on a grand scale, religious cleansing in regions, etc. They are desperate for a saviour, and the one person who has never compromised on Hindutva, who is never apologetic about his Hindutva outlook, NaMo, is unsurprisingly the leader. Also, his ability to weather the repeated attacks by the secular terrorists worked hugely in his favour, and created a sympathy for him.

The good governance folks are also desperate. Growth is falling, jobs are hit, the economy is in shambles, and people are hoping for a man with good business sense and developmental politics, as opposed to populism of the Congress. Their hopes are also centred around the man who, they hope, can deliver good governance, and set right the ship of state, after the botched experiments of the Congress. Hence the extreme popularity of NaMo.

The BJP leadership in the states did not face the loss of credibility that the BJP in the centre did. That is why you have good leaders in the states. They have credibility with both the Hindutva crowd and the good governance crowd. I am hoping that they will build a pan Indian base with good leaders in all states, who are unapologetic Indics, and focus on good governance. The problem is compounded by the fact that in addition to the above two qualities, you also need leaders who can appeal to the people. A prime example of this problem is Yeddyurappa - he is not apologetic about his Hindutva, and he is a mass leader, but he is not good at governance. I would happily make Yeddyurappa the party chief in Karnataka, but would not make him CM. So - BJP will have to find the best talent in every state and promote it.

When we think of the Swatantra Party, we often think only of their economic policies and focus on individual rights. But most of them were unapologetic Hindus, and did a great deal for Hindutva causes. Honestly, are the contributions of Gayathri Devi, or N G Ranga (the number of people he stopped from becoming Communists and Naxalites is probably his greatest achievement), or K M Munshi (he started Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, which produces some of the best texts about India and joined Jan Sangh after the death of Rajagopalachari), or Rajagopalachari himself any less than the contributions of Shyama Prasad Mookerjee or Deen Dayal Upadhyaya? They may not have been openly Hindutva as the (then) Jan Sangh, but they were Hindu to the core. The amalgamation of the Swatantra Party policies and Jan Sangh ideals is rooted in Indianness itself. It is just that they chose to place greater emphasis on different aspects of policy (the one on economics, the other on socio-cultural aspects), but their merger is a direct natural consequence of the two different aspects of governance merging.
Glad to hear the anecdote about Kozhikode. It is a communist/ML bastion, so the growth of the BJP there is a very heartening development. Kerala has a collection of OBC+UC+non-proselytizing Christian groups who would together constitute a great long term BJP base. It won't happen overnight, but when it does, it will be potent.
Aye - I am hoping that in Malabar, there will be a genuine move towards the BJP this time. The non-proselytising Christians are feeling the heat from both the Muslim League and from the proselytising Christians (who are not shy about poaching on other Christians either). A pan-Indian Indic party based on Indic ethics, culture and economic policies is what I hope the BJP can become.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

johneeG wrote:The only exception to the above theory is the north-east where despite the large number of lovelies, lotus did not gain traction with the Hindhus.
Also Kerala ? Kerala should have been a BJP hotbed a long time back going by your theory - but yet to see real signs of the lotus flowering. There is a lot of optimistic talk that one hears from members here - but surveys, which are likely more objective, paint a different picture.
---------------------------------------------------------
Btw, you make a very good point about BJP evolution being tied to Congress' emergence from the closet as a more openly anti-Hindu party.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

the fact is to remove the bad image bjp has gotten into itself from the kala angrez venoms and anti-hindu fundamentalist vadis, it is a big job.. gujarat model just overshadows that factor by million times. this is the message that modi carries, and should impact people's mindset straight head on. if not, then bjpites are not doing their job even in any godforesaken state that a non-native party invades like kala angrez did during independence.

again, the fight is at the grass roots.. bjp men has a lot of work to do.. and if the company of advani to continue to ignore this fact, then they can hardly make any impact. the failures there speaks volume, and if modi can cover that up.. just imagine his strength. it is a tough job for him, when his own party men failed to do.

advani having a super position in the party, never did per se like how modi could impact.. he is just a glorified mms to an extent. to impact, only performance can help. must drink the chai to get the taste of it!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Suraj »

Any BJP consolidation in Kerala will not happen overnight. Anyone hoping for it in 2014 is expecting way too much. However, the potential is very much there due to the nature of the comunities and the current options. The groups in question are split between the LDP and UDP, and the politics runs on a binary anti-incumbency mechanism now.

I consider the non-proselytizing Christians of Kerala as Indic as anyone else. They've been around for almost two millenia and deserve to be grouped as such; they've been a valuable part of the state's socio-economic history during that time.

nageshks, (please don't ji me - I am not worthy!) I agree with you on Swatantra Party's traditional credentials. Regarding the BJP between 2004 and 2012, they did not do their job between 2004-09, regardless of the tailwinds of economic growth. They were simply invisible. Without Modi emphasizing traditions + governance at the central level, they still are invisible.

But for Modi, the primary candidate to be next PM either be RaGa due to TINA factor, or Mayawati. No one from the BJP would even come close, because their behavior in the past decade did not demonstrate any ideology on the lines of either Swatantra Party or Jan Sangh, much less that of both. It's Modi who has done so.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Arjun »

^^^ Forget about actually voting for BJP, Kerala was the ONLY state in one of the recent surveys where Modi scored lower than RaGa in popularity for PMship. Now that, to my mind, is a fairly strong statement about the state.

Very obviously - this anomaly is due to the demographics. And its not solely on account of the Muslims...Kerala may be somewhat higher on Muslims than Bihar - but not enough to explain the big difference in feelings towards Modi or the Dynasty.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SanjayC »

^^^ For the first time in their history, Hindus in Kerala may have slipped below the majority mark. On top of that, they are drinking the Kool aid of secularism and Marxism without explaining how these serve their civilizational interests. Another problem is extreme parochialism that makes them disconnected from national consciousness.

Kerala Hindus have totally vacated the local political space because of this behavior -- Muslims and Christians decide the state government. In this situation, any other community would have developed a siege mentality and circled the wagons, but they trundle on, disinterested in the security of their future generations. All in all, their goose is ready to be cooked in another two-three decades. By then they will be cured of Marxism, but it would be their last hurrah.
Last edited by SanjayC on 26 Jan 2014 09:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Suraj »

The vote that could go for the BJP long term - provided they have a political foundation based on the Swatantra Party and Jan Sangh's ideals - is currently split. Modi alone simply doesn't make enough of a case in Kerala yet, particularly because of the Muslim anti-Modi voting. For the BJP in Kerala, it's not about Modi. They should think of getting the Ezhavas, Nairs, Namboothiris and old Christians together. Modi has already been making moves along these lines, but it's not going to show up today. Making statements about current opinion poll surveys does not really provide much information, because the results are rather along expected lines, as things stand now.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by johneeG »

Arjun wrote:
johneeG wrote:The only exception to the above theory is the north-east where despite the large number of lovelies, lotus did not gain traction with the Hindhus.
Also Kerala ? Kerala should have been a BJP hotbed a long time back going by your theory - but yet to see real signs of the lotus flowering. There is a lot of optimistic talk that one hears from members here - but surveys, which are likely more objective, paint a different picture.
---------------------------------------------------------
Btw, you make a very good point about BJP evolution being tied to Congress' emergence from the closet as a more openly anti-Hindu party.
Thanks, saar. :)

About Kerala:
the left! As Bji has explained, it seems Bhaaratheeya left is a curious beast which uses the Hindhu ire/rebellion to fuel itself. The EJs and Jihadhis support left because its useful in harming the Hindhus. But the core of the left is formed by the Hindhus.

The Hindhu ire/rebellion is diverted into a 'class-war' or 'caste-war'. And when these Hindhu commies see that the abrahanics are becoming more powerful and Hindhus are weakening, then they blame it on Hindhu system itself and demand more 'class-war' or 'caste-war'(this is similar to Bakis demanding more malsI). Eventually, a Hindhu commie faces two options when he sees the overwhelming signs that abrahanics are becoming too powerful due to left:
a) convert to one of the abrahnic creed and continue in the same trajectory.
b) disillusionment with left and become a radical Hindhu demanding Hindhuthva.

Vangal and Kerala were subjected to left and therefore, the Hindhu ire was absorbed by the left and stopped the growth of lotus. In Thelangana region also, left did absorb a lot of Hindhu ire against razakaars and trying to divert it towards 'class-war'.

If not for left, then Vangal, Kerala and Thelangana region would have been much more stridently and radically Hindhuthva in their political affiliations.

After the initial surge in UP and Vihar region, the caste parties tried to divert the Hindhu ire towards 'caste-war'.

Anyway, there is another factor that made the job of lotus difficult in dhesh:
most of the ground workers of any party were Hindhus(and mostly pro-Hindhuthva even if they didn't know what Hindhuthva meant). It would seem that this should help the lotus. But, what happened is that because the local party leaders and party workers of most parties were more less similar to the leaders and workers of lotus, the people didn't see the difference.

Thilak sporting was and is not limited to lotus guys. Many leaders and cadre across political parties do that. (One must remember that the political leaders and cadre of all parties can be quite religious even if they are corrupt because they are in high stakes game). Even the so-called hardcore leftist guys seem to secretly perform religious rituals for their victories.

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But the major defect of the lotus was that it did not patronize/hire the intellectuals who would be able to convey the importance and need of the ideas espoused by the lotus.

They seemed to believe that Savarkar or Golwalker was enough and no other intellectual was needed. In contrast, left's greatest success has been its patronization and co-opting of intellectuals and artists to espouse its causes. This gave a major advantage to left. And dynasty always was in bed with the left, so the commie intellectuals also put a halo on the dynasty.

One of the reasons for the recent popularity of the lotus is that many intellectuals are starting to argue the cases/ideas espoused by the lotus. People like Rajiv Malhothra, Rajiv Dheekshith, Seetharaam Goel, Raam Swarup, Arun Shourie, Baba Ramdhev, Subbu Swamy...etc are, on their own, forming the intellectual muscle of the lotus. And the rise of social media, has created a new phenomenon called internet Hindhu who is using the inglees skills and internet to spread(and build on) the ideas of these intellectuals.

This is the main reason for the turn around and complete breakdown of the kongis hold on the people. There is still a lot that the Hindhuthva organizations(including lotus) can do on this front. They should patronize and co-opt more intellectuals/artists(dealing with social and economic issues) who can spread and build on the Hindhuthva ideology.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Shanmukh »

Suraj wrote:The vote that could go for the BJP long term - provided they have a political foundation based on the Swatantra Party and Jan Sangh's ideals - is currently split. Modi alone simply doesn't make enough of a case in Kerala yet, particularly because of the Muslim anti-Modi voting. For the BJP in Kerala, it's not about Modi. They should think of getting the Ezhavas, Nairs, Namboothiris and old Christians together. Modi has already been making moves along these lines, but it's not going to show up today. Making statements about current opinion poll surveys does not really provide much information, because the results are rather along expected lines, as things stand now.
There is also the fact that the BJP in Kerala is hopelessly divided. Just a couple of days ago, part of the Kannur BJP split from the party, went and joined CPM. Also, the BJP has no credible leaders with the sole exception of O Rajagopal (and he is 80+). Even in this election,, they do have a chance to win in at least 3 seats (Thirvananthapuram, Kasargod, and Pattanamthitta). However, I am not very hopeful, except in the case of Thiruvananthapuram.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

Arjun wrote:^^^ ..Very obviously - this anomaly is due to the demographics. .
well.. i'd lean on the answer : which two states in desh has the largest anti-democratic parties?
ans: WB & KL.

now that should give you the impedence factors.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by geeth »

If Modi and Amit Shah together spend all their time in Kerala for next 10 yes, BJP won't win a single seat. Fault is with population..they are the most deracinated lot plus there is no distinction between ruling and opposition parties. They always work to keep their interest safe. What Modi faces in Dilli, BJP faces in Kerala.
Last edited by geeth on 26 Jan 2014 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Suraj »

nageshks wrote:Even in this election,, they do have a chance to win in at least 3 seats (Thirvananthapuram, Kasargod, and Pattanamthitta). However, I am not very hopeful, except in the case of Thiruvananthapuram.
I don't know what to say about TVM. Tharoor will probably not be contesting again, but I'm concerned whoever replaces him will get a 'sympathy vote'. I was talking to an older family member and she said - regarding the tragic death of his wife - that 'this looks really bad for us'. It was a strange thing to say, but Kerala has this kneejerk thing that Delhi is always trying to screw us. Rajan Pillai's death was among those things. Modi can make a case by firmly supporting Kerala's aspirations, but he's have to do so in a way that's not seen as giving us special treatment he doesn't accord other states.

Modi has been making some interesting moves recently to create the coalition I mentioned, but it won't happen now. Maybe 5 years out it will be a fledgling force.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Supratik »

I see a trend away from the left at least in WB. Their vote share seems to be declining further. In KL Hindus + old Christians still make 70% of the population. Further, 2/3rds of the assembly seats are Hindu majority. However, by the time WB and KL wakes up they will already become minorities unless something dramatic happens.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Comer »

Suraj wrote: I would like the BJP to take up the mantle of the erstwhile Swatantra Party and the Jan Sangh.
I wish this would happen. Apart wishing NaMo to be the PM for number of election cycles I hope he steers the next generation in this direction.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by JohnTitor »

Suraj wrote:The BJP on its own would never be such a strong challenger in these polls. They'd be quite incompetent, in fact. They owe their current popularity to Modi. People will vote for lotus to get Modi in power, even if they don't really care for lotus otherwise. The BJP should not forget that, because they still have a lot to fix within the party. As a party they're yet to get over 2004, and all their current momentum is due to one man and the attention he commands of the country. The last time India 'voted for the man' was back in Indira's or Nehru's days. Even Rajiv came in largely on a sympathy vote instead of anything to do with himself, since he was an unknown. In BJPs last administration people voted for the movement, not specifically for ABV as is the case now.
+108
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by devesh »

I used to think on the same lines that BJP was considered a "naarth india" party and so didn't get much votes in South.

but my view on that has undergone some changes based on the ideas of 2 fellow members here. The BJP's strongholds (and main backers) are people who come from the core base of the old Marathas. and I think BJP's trajectory so far as pretty much reflected the thinking of Bajirao-like figures, in the sense that they established a base in Maha and jumped into the North. BJP pretty much was the same until very recently. they had a good base in Maha and focused on North.

IMVHO, I think there has been a change in the thinking of the think tanks that drive the BJP. and I think Modi is the figure through whom they will chart a new course (regardless of whether he becomes PM or not). even without PM'ship, he will be the catalyst of re-configuring BJP. they need to prepare a strategy for the South and East (Karnataka, Kerala, TN, AP, Odisha, Bengal, Assam, NE; Chattisgarh and Jharkhand fall in this category as well).
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Supratik »

What a coincidence!!! I was thinking the same. The areas where the BJP is strong are areas of the Maratha empire, Rajput states and Sikh empire.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by jamwal »

nageshks wrote: I quite agree with you about the BJP at the centre. However, you are overlooking two major problems with regard to their failure as the opposition. The men (and women) who led the opposition in the Centre from 2004-2012 were the ones who were associated with Vajpayee, and his agenda. Whether we like it or not, the Vajpayee government came to power on the strength of the Hindutva agenda, and on that score, they all failed dismally. Not one of their promises was accomplished, and with the Hindutva crowd, the BJP leadership at the Centre had totally lost credibility. The men and women associated with Vajpayee (especially the upper echelons of the BJP Central leadership) were, consequently, irrevocably compromised.

To make matters worse, they were pitted against MMS (who had ensured good economic growth in his first term - it may have been the lingering effect of the NDA policies, but nevertheless, people saw no difference in the administrations of the Congress and the BJP) in 2009. The BJP, between 2004 and 2012, was just a pale imitation of the Congress and there was no real difference. The Communists looked like a real opposition, because they could ideologically oppose many of the economic policies of the Centre. The economic disasters of the UPA were yet to bear their bitter fruit in 2009, and very few people had realised the true devastation unleashed by the populist economics of the UPA. The BJP could not really oppose the minority appeasement by the Congress, because they had been too timid when they had been in power. The opposition by the BJP would be credible only if it was led by someone who had impeccable Hindutva credentials, and that someone could not be a man associated with the Vajpayee government.

MMS was not a PM candidate, Sonia was.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

yup.. +108 to modi and -108 to bjp as a party

because of this -108 feeling is what drives party like AAP. if they don't understand this after Modi, then even the modi factor will diminish on a slight shake of economy and governance phuck up.

it will be all DIENASTY REDUX! and with no point of return even in the milky way.

i'd say, throw away existing fatso in bjp, and create 100s of modilets, as core party dynamic models - modi's first job if he wins, and should he thinks about his party.
ask not what the party has done to you
ask what you have done to the party
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by KLNMurthy »

devesh wrote:I used to think on the same lines that BJP was considered a "naarth india" party and so didn't get much votes in South.

but my view on that has undergone some changes based on the ideas of 2 fellow members here. The BJP's strongholds (and main backers) are people who come from the core base of the old Marathas. and I think BJP's trajectory so far as pretty much reflected the thinking of Bajirao-like figures, in the sense that they established a base in Maha and jumped into the North. BJP pretty much was the same until very recently. they had a good base in Maha and focused on North.

IMVHO, I think there has been a change in the thinking of the think tanks that drive the BJP. and I think Modi is the figure through whom they will chart a new course (regardless of whether he becomes PM or not). even without PM'ship, he will be the catalyst of re-configuring BJP. they need to prepare a strategy for the South and East (Karnataka, Kerala, TN, AP, Odisha, Bengal, Assam, NE; Chattisgarh and Jharkhand fall in this category as well).
Marathas had a presence in Tamil Nadu also. And there is lots of secondary Maratha / Maharashtrian cultural influence. OT but I think the "Rao" suffix to Telugu names is due to Maratha influence on Northern & NE AP, also a lot of 19th century Telugu stage drama was inspired by Maharashtrian drama, or actually performed by Maharashtrian troupes. Are these strong enough to leverage a revival of "Hindu Padshahi" in AP & TN is the interesting question.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

that influx to TN and their vote base size is so tiny, and does not play for other than establishing some ideologies.

now, infilteration is what matters for TN.. inherit, adapt, decorate, and facade between the local and national interests.

if you have the dependencies established, then we see the regional representatives act to national governance model.

if any party is weak locally, it only shows the party's interests, and not people's alone.. they have no commonalities or totally disconnected.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by gandharva »

SaiK
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SaiK »

structural corrections are hard, but perspectives can change for future structures.
only if have a view to future perspectives, we can realize a structural change.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by devesh »

Telugus have used Rao suffix for at least 3 centuries now. The Raya became Rao.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Vamsee »

After we have discussed these many pages, finally NaMo decided to blog about his "Idea of India". It is a must read.
Narendra Modi's Idea of India
Importantly, today is also a day for introspection. What does the Republic of India stand for? What does it mean to us? What direction has it been headed in over the last seven decades? And what does it need to do in the coming years?

One phrase that has been gaining significant traction of-late is the ‘Idea of India’. Public and academic discourse around this has been hijacked by a select few, becoming a powerful tool in furthering their hegemony over the same. Many have asked me in lengthy op-eds, on social media and so on that “Modi ji everything else is alright but what is your Idea of India”? Others have not been so kind, preferring to debate my party’s very suitability with this ‘Idea of India’ itself.

However, one must understand that no single person or entity can appropriate the ‘Idea of India’. BJP’s National Council Meet last week gave me the opportunity to share some glimpses into what my ‘Idea of India’ was as well.

First and foremost, my understanding of the ‘Idea of India’ fundamentally rejects such a hegemonic conceptualization of an ‘Idea of India’. The Rig Veda teaches us: ‘आ नो भद्राः क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वतः’. That is ‘let noble thoughts flow from all sides’! This is not just a mantra, but a central tenet of our Constitution as well. Ours is a path of tolerance. Of the celebration of diversity. Where every Indian not just envisions, but works towards building the India of his or her dreams. My ‘Idea of India’ calls not just for tolerance, but a celebration of all points of view. Where the sensibilities of every individual are respected.

Truth, Peace and Non-violence form the central tenets of the ‘Idea of India’! Our scriptures teach ‘सत्यमेव जयते’, that Truth alone triumphs. I am committed to such an India where the wheels of justice move quickly and equally for every Indian irrespective of his class, caste or creed. An India where injustice has no legal nor moral validity.

Non-violence is another such principle that has blessed our nation from time immemorial. We are the land of Gautama Buddha, Mahavira and Mahatma Gandhi. ‘अहिंसा परमो धर्मः’ – that non-violence is the highest dharma – is ingrained in our scriptures. Violence, in any manner or form, thus has no space whatsoever in the ‘Idea of India’.

The ‘Idea of India’ in fact does not let this ethos of brotherhood and friendship be limited by India’s boundaries as well, espousing the principle of ‘वसुधैव कुटुम्बकम्’ – or the whole world being one single family. The 21st century once again beckons India to its role of being the guiding light to the world. The ‘Idea of India’ demands the actualization of Swami Vivekananda’s dream of ‘जगद गुरु भारत’. Of a confident and sure India, engaging with the global community on its own terms and principles.

The ‘Idea of India’ is an India of opportunity and aspiration. An India where: ‘सर्वे भवन्तु सुखिनः, सर्वे सन्तु निरामयाः’ – all are prosperous and happy, all are free from illness. Unfortunately however, poverty and despondency has been perpetuated for decades to enrich the ballot boxes of a selected few. The dreams and aspirations of our peoples have been brow-beaten into submissive helplessness. The incredulous story of India being a poor nation has been woven to suit this purpose.

But this bluff must be called! India is not a poor nation. It has been made poor. India is blessed with incredible natural resources as well as unimaginable human resources. Why else was every colonial power drawn to India centuries ago, then for her unimaginable wealth! All that is needed to release this trapped vibrancy is a change in approach. We need to harness dreams, rather than dependency. We Indians have a very strong sense of honour and dignity. We are a self made people. All we ask for is fair and equal opportunity. The ‘Idea of India’ thus requires every single Indian to be empowered with the opportunity to break free from the chains of poverty and build his own success story of progress and prosperity.

Now is the time to give our people wings to fly. Empower them with the ability to dream; as well as the capability to actualize the same. Our youth are brimming with energy, ready to shape not just India but the World at large. It is our responsibility to enable the same by providing them with the necessary skills and opportunities. We must harness their talent through a focus on quality education, entrepreneurship, innovation, research and technology.

Whenever knowledge has been in primacy, India has shown the way to the World. As the 21st century evolves into an era of knowledge and information, the World once again beckons India. It is not the might of missiles but the sharpness of the human mind that will determine the coming century. Education thus is at the core of my ‘Idea of India’, charting the way from the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge – ‘तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय’. I envision an India where the lamp of knowledge shines in every household. I envision an India where each child has access to a holistic education that builds character and personality.

A society’s development is incomplete without the empowerment of women. This dream of women empowerment cannot be achieved until we as a society are able to guarantee their safety and dignity. Few things are as shameful as committing a crime against women. If we see our beloved nation as our Mother India – ‘माँ भारती’, if the divine Goddess has been worshipped by our ancestors for centuries; why do we tolerate crime against women? Let us raise our voices and unite against these forces who cannot respect our ‘मातृ शक्ति’. Women have been considered as homemakers. Now however, we must see them as nation builders, fundamentally defining our future.

The development of India will not be possible with a weak Federation. The makers of our Constitution envisioned a strong federal structure where the States and the Centre are equal partners in the development journey. No one is big and no one is small.

We need to change the mindset where states have to survive at the mercy of Delhi. The money in our nation’s’ coffers belongs to the people of India!

We dream of an India where development is the result of all Chief Ministers, the Prime Minister, state Ministers, Union Ministers working together with even Local Body Authorities as one team, a strong and united ‘Team India.’

Friends, we are a truly blessed people. Blessed with unimaginable wealth, both natural and human. Blessed with an illustrious heritage built by our ancestors over millennia. Ours is the sole culture that has stood the test of time. Civilisations came and civilisations went. Societies appeared and societies disappeared. But we stand tall, having overcome every challenge only to emerge stronger after each.

Yes, there have been setbacks. Yes, we are confronted by some very serious challenges. Yes, there is a lot that remains to be done. However the ‘Idea of India’ stands unblemished. I have always believed in the intrinsic strength and potential of India. I urge you to do the same.

Let us have faith in our nation and our people. Let us walk the path shown by our great leaders, as a fitting tribute to their selfless sacrifice. Let us devote ourselves to the cause of nation building with the mantra of ‘India First’! Let us together build a nation that once again redefines the story of mankind!
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by gandharva »

devesh wrote:Telugus have used Rao suffix for at least 3 centuries now. The Raya became Rao.
Until Guru Govind Singh popularized the surname "Singh", Thakurs in UP and Bihar used to have "Rai" as their surname. Even now, on the occasion of "Pitar Puja" eg wedding etc, Pitars are invited by their last name as "Rai".
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

i hope namo stops the non violence/ahimsa cool aid or its merely PR to assuage the dhoti shivering liberals. it has done enough damage to our psyche already.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by RajeshA »

Karan M wrote:i hope namo stops the non violence/ahimsa cool aid or its merely PR to assuage the dhoti shivering liberals. it has done enough damage to our psyche already.
The "Idea of India" can start being changed in another 10 years at the political level. At the cultural level, it has already started.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^Exactly. And IMHO Ahimsa as NM says it is merely a NFU (no first use) option.

Am sure, it hasn't escaped notice that the best way to prevent war is to be prepared for it. Similarly, the best way to dissuade violence is to carry a big stick while speaking softly onlee....

I wouldn't go into mourning at NM using some kool-aid as fool-aid to misdirect psec mijjiles. Actually, it shows NM's confidence as a leader in his core vote base - that he can experiment with stretching things a bit without losing his voters' confidence that he won't sellout on their interests, ever.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Vamsee »

Did you guys miss this?
=======================
My ‘Idea of India’ calls not just for tolerance, but a celebration of all points of view. Where the sensibilities of every individual are respected.
========================
Straight out of Rajiv Malhotra's book :-)
RM met Modi and presented him his book and NaMo read it and sent an letter appreciating it :-)
NaMo was trained by RSS since childhood. Why do you think he would drink the kool-aid? ;-)
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by SwamyG »

Suraj wrote: I consider the non-proselytizing Christians of Kerala as Indic as anyone else. They've been around for almost two millenia and deserve to be grouped as such; they've been a valuable part of the state's socio-economic history during that time.
Without getting into the discussion of the term Indic, we have had countless threads on that. One should not bracket proselytizing religious groups as Indic or non-Indic. It is a slippery slope, as the so-called Indic religions themselves relied on proselytism over thousands of years to spread their ideas, culture and ways of worship.

Are you implying that proselytizing Christians (or say even Muslims) have not been valuable part of the state or the country.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by ManjaM »

Nitesh wrote:
ManjaM wrote:How does one contribute monetarily the to NaMo campaign?
donate.bjp.org
--deleted--
Last edited by ManjaM on 27 Jan 2014 06:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Karan M »

Hari saar, my fear is the types of Sudheendra Kulkarni look alikes influencing NaMo to suddenly start singing paeans to ahimsa, non violence etc. Sounds suspiciously similar to all the rubbish we have been fed since the past 60 years and which has caused our nation untold damage in dealing with all sorts of threats. IMHO, there was no need to include all that stuff in that message. I (personally) would prefer a tough no nonsense leader (though humane) as versus the milksops that have been foisted on us. Based on NaMos record so far, I'd say he is one. But such comments out of the blue make me wonder if some PR type is having him pander to all the liberals who drink this ahimsa cool aid (until their interests are threatened and out comes the need for the "fundoos", "brutal army" etc).
Non-violence is another such principle that has blessed our nation from time immemorial. We are the land of Gautama Buddha, Mahavira and Mahatma Gandhi. ‘अहिंसा परमो धर्मः’ – that non-violence is the highest dharma – is ingrained in our scriptures. Violence, in any manner or form, thus has no space whatsoever in the ‘Idea of India’.
Would be disagreed with by our Hindu avatars, to the Sikh Gurus to Maharana Pratap etc. IMHO our scriptures say duty to dharma itself is the highest dharma, and if need be fight against even ones own people as the Mahabharata shows. This tendency to naval gaze and go into full blown ahimsa mode was per several historical accounts a big factor in terms of ancient India being unable to resist totalitarian and violent cultures, as well.

I would hope Shri Modis advisors realize this and stop harping on all this stuff.

But I am going OT.
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by ManjaM »

Contribution to donate.bjp.org is not going through. Tried a couple of different cards. Any ideas? The 011 4800 5757 number, is it an India number?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Hari Seldon »

^ Yes, its a mumbai number. Anyone tried reaching lotus via tried email, by any chance?
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Re: Narendra Modi vs the Dynasty: Contrasting Ideas of India

Post by Suraj »

SwamyG wrote:Without getting into the discussion of the term Indic, we have had countless threads on that. One should not bracket proselytizing religious groups as Indic or non-Indic. It is a slippery slope, as the so-called Indic religions themselves relied on proselytism over thousands of years to spread their ideas, culture and ways of worship.

Are you implying that proselytizing Christians (or say even Muslims) have not been valuable part of the state or the country.
You misunderstand. I personally have no problem calling them all Indic; it is they who'd respond negatively to the association and would not associate politically with the BJP. That does not apply to those like the older Orthodox Christian folks who happily associate with the native folks without any effort to denigrate the faith or culture of the people who welcomed them here, and on the same token would readily be not just BJP but Modi supporters if he gave them the very reasonable and mutually beneficial support they seek. See Avarachan's post in the Stateswide elections thread. I'm sure he can also mention more about their attitude towards non-Christians compared to that of the older Orthodox types.
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