India-US Strategic News and Discussion

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 01 Feb 2014 04:58

Karan M wrote:>>>Being jingoistic doesn't solve any problems, ruthless self scrutiny leads to accelerated improvement.

Something clearly lacking in the cowboys of 'Murrica when they go out to civilize the heathens who OMG are underpaying the poor low class untouchable (errm facts be darned) etc.. (judging by how this entire event unfolded).

>>It is internal roadblocks which block that from happening, so the poor remain poor and those in power can amass ridiculous amounts of wealth. That exploitation is rampant in India (chota, bada aadmi attitude needs to go away)

And clearly, in the US, the poor don't remain poor and those in power dont amass ridiculous amounts of wealth. And nor is there exploitation. And nor is there a chota, bada aadmi attitude. (PS: Whom are you kidding if you think this?)

>>That's the direction I'm trying to steer this conversation.

Thats all very well, but on BRF its called "open fly torn shirt" game. Irrespective of how India is (and being Indian i experience the frustrations daily), it does not mean whatever the other side does is correct either.

The usual tactic to underplay India's grievances is the usual "ah you dirty/dumb/inefficient Indians, y'all are never gonna improve". Or "y'all must improve". Irrespective of that, it still doesn't mean what the other side did was correct either.

I don't think you guys are dumb, nuh uh........in fact I;m gettin' some OJT. I'm sittin' at the feet of the masters here, buddy! My laughable curriculum vitae wouldn't even get me anywhere near amber or ulan batori. I could apply to just sit in their class rooms but that cost prolly thousands of bit coins. So I come to the forum and get the direct scoop. kinda like when you guys go to Barnes and Ignoble, I go to the forum instead.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Feb 2014 05:07

Sravan wrote: ....
I also run a RTI filing engine in India.

Sravan, good luck to you. When you understand FOIA vs RTI, revisit. But this is only worthy of a nukkad discuussion now. They will drag me back to the cave if I tried either to argue or help promote your business.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2014 05:12

Sravan, the point I am making is this.

Your points about Indian governance belong in the General Discussion forum. Trust me, Indians are no less frustrated with misgovernance & nor are they sitting idle. The LS elections will (hopefully) show what Indians think regarding change. I applaud your attempts to work for India and appreciate them, so don't take my comments as being directed at you personally or being accusatory.

As to why the Indian system has had such a tough time meeting its people's needs - my thoughts are many & I can quote several reasons why (and vent my anger too), but they are not germane to this thread.

Here, the issue was this - how an Indian diplomat was mistreated for no clear reason, the sheer nonchalance with which it was treated by the US establishment. While there has been a long history of ignoring Indian laws & cultural mores while pontificating on how third rate India & Indian culture is & needs to be civilized - openly mentioned by mouthpieces like the NYT.

An analogy. Lets assume India is indeed wretched. But XYZ is 10X more wretched.

Does that make it right for Indians to mock them, ridicule them, pretend that Indians are above them culturally/racially (and the "Murrica, Murrica" theme does have racial overtones when it comes from the US media quoting "sources"). Wrong is wrong.

However, whenever that has been raised. The response has been "ah, look how you treat your da-leeets". "ah, you are burning your mooo-sleems". There is zero introspection, zero empathy, and almost always complete hubris.

If ties between the US and India have to improve, and claims of India being a "strategic ally" have to be grounded in reality, Indian diplomats can't be treated like this (while Saudi diplomats get away with 1000X), US media & US citizens can't go around mocking Indian laws, culture, religious beliefs while openly flaunting the "superiority" of their equally dogmatic belief system.

That is the issue here.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 01 Feb 2014 05:19

Karan M wrote:Sravan, the point I am making is this.

Your points about Indian governance belong in the General Discussion forum. Trust me, Indians are no less frustrated with misgovernance & nor are they sitting idle. The LS elections will (hopefully) show what Indians think regarding change. I applaud your attempts to work for India and appreciate them, so don't take my comments as being directed at you personally or being accusatory.

As to why the Indian system has had such a tough time meeting its people's needs - my thoughts are many & I can quote several reasons why (and vent my anger too), but they are not germane to this thread.

Here, the issue was this - how an Indian diplomat was mistreated for no clear reason, the sheer nonchalance with which it was treated by the US establishment. While there has been a long history of ignoring Indian laws & cultural mores while pontificating on how third rate India & Indian culture is & needs to be civilized - openly mentioned by mouthpieces like the NYT.

An analogy. Lets assume India is indeed wretched. But XYZ is 10X more wretched.

Does that make it right for Indians to mock them, ridicule them, pretend that Indians are above them culturally/racially (and the "Murrica, Murrica" theme does have racial overtones when it comes from the US media quoting "sources"). Wrong is wrong.

However, whenever that has been raised. The response has been "ah, look how you treat your da-leeets". "ah, you are burning your mooo-sleems". There is zero introspection, zero empathy, and almost always complete hubris.

If ties between the US and India have to improve, and claims of India being a "strategic ally" have to be grounded in reality, Indian diplomats can't be treated like this (while Saudi diplomats get away with 1000X), US media & US citizens can't go around mocking Indian laws, culture, religious beliefs while openly flaunting the "superiority" of their equally dogmatic belief system.

That is the issue here.

Karan,

The US is not apologetic about taking advantage of the weaknesses of other countries. I have made posts before which explain how the US thinks, it's US interests first. The way to fix this issue is to internally strengthen India to be considered an equal. You guys are examining the fallout of an issue where two entities are on unequal footing.

The US will say what it needs to say and do what it needs to do to get the job done and keep its citizens happy. There are no friends in diplomatic relations and Devyani was collateral damage in miscalculations from both countries. The only reason US citizens mock Indian laws, is that they see Indian citizens openly disobeying them. It's the same reason an NRI might throw trash on the side of the road in India and use trash cans when they are back at their country of residence. It's the collective attitude of the Indian citizens which needs to be addressed. The security and sanctity of the nation cannot be outsourced to a bunch of nincompoops in power at the central government. If there is fear of prosecution for breaking the law, these events wouldn't occur.

Which brings me back to my original point, India has crappy inefficient governance. I'm not sugar coating it or beating around the bush. That is the core issue that needs solving. Treatment of a Indian diplomat will be taken seriously once India removes issues off the table which can be used as ammo when criticizing a diplomatic spat. This is not my opinion, but how power works in Washington.

So the core problem is the attitude of the citizenry. Change that first and all the derivative effects will also be solved. Own your governance and take responsibility. I agree with you, we will see in the next election if Indians deserve what they are getting currently.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2014 05:40

Sravan, you are not getting the point. Even if India was heaven on earth, would that change how the US behaves with India?

>>>The only reason US citizens mock Indian laws, is that they see Indian citizens openly disobeying them.

So does the rest of the world not respect their own laws, ergo the Americans behave as they do with them as well? Or the corollary, are the Saudis famous for their law abiding behavior that they get a free pass in many respects.

>>You guys are examining the fallout of an issue where two entities are on unequal footing.

Ergo, every mean should be employed to put them on equal footing. Not being cowed down by "y'all dont know your place, y'have bad roads".

>>So the core problem is the attitude of the citizenry. Change that first and all the derivative effects will also be solved. Own your governance and take responsibility.

I submit to you that if you observe the companion thread (Positive news from the USA), the US citizenry is also not owning their governance or taking sufficient responsibility.

The issue hence is not of Indian citizens being apathetic or India having bad governance.

Its one of one nation behaving like an Imperial power & insisting that all other nations submit on the claims that they are culturally, economically etc inferior. Your answer is that if India were equally strong, things would be better.

Guess what, even if every Indian became superman & started "owning processes" overnight, India would still take decades to change. So does that mean, till then, India submit itself to such antics?

If not, then at least, it bears remarking that the United States, which claims to be completely right in whatever it does, is not necessarily so. That is what is being pointed out.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 01 Feb 2014 05:41

Sravan,

Your point has merit, and undoubtedly has to be debated seriously by anyone who has a serious interest in the future of India. Having said that, there are a lot of threads that can actually be relevant to the issues you are bringing here. This thread is not for internal issues of India, as far as my understanding of this thread goes it is purely for looking at India as a monolithic entity dealing with the an external entity called the USofA. In that focus, your points are not really relevant and I think you should infact take it to another thread (Indian Interests perhaps?).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Feb 2014 05:43

Exactly.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 01 Feb 2014 05:45

LokeshC wrote:Sravan,

Your point has merit, and undoubtedly has to be debated seriously by anyone who has a serious interest in the future of India. Having said that, there are a lot of threads that can actually be relevant to the issues you are bringing here. This thread is not for internal issues of India, as far as my understanding of this thread goes it is purely for looking at India as a monolithic entity dealing with the an external entity called the USofA. In that focus, your points are not really relevant and I think you should infact take it to another thread (Indian Interests perhaps?).

Just wanted to make a point to ensure people take weaknesses into account when analyzing the US reaction. I think I conveyed what my thoughts are within the context of India and US relationships. You guys carry on.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 01 Feb 2014 05:47

Sravan: The NRIs who throw trash on the wayside but dont in USA are sheeple - or people who follow what the danda or gun-holding pandu says. An American with true moral fibre will also follow the laws whether in India or USA. Otherwise they are sheeple too. Let us ignore sheeple.

In any case in this situation law of USA does not seem to have been followed unless US law does not provide for diplomatic immunity. I'm sure reading of this thread has acquainted you with other lapses and instances where the law was not followed. Please do visit the positive news thread and also, Nation on march thread. India's positive news you seem to know already

.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Feb 2014 05:53

TSJones wrote:
Yes indeed! I know how to treat servants that demand back pay for extra hours worked. I'll file charges against them and their family back home. Plus they're abusing their pass port! I ain't no dummy, I learn, I learn.

TSJ: I have written more in the past two weeks than last seven years! I specifically dont want to meet your arguments on this subject -- they are hypothetical and accusatory, but give it a few weeks. Truth can be stranger than fiction.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 01 Feb 2014 05:54

viv wrote:Sravan: The NRIs who throw trash on the wayside but dont in USA are sheeple - or people who follow what the danda or gun-holding pandu says. An American with true moral fibre will also follow the laws whether in India or USA. Otherwise they are sheeple too. Let us ignore sheeple.

In any case in this situation law of USA does not seem to have been followed unless US law does not provide for diplomatic immunity. I'm sure reading of this thread has acquainted you with other lapses and instances where the law was not followed. Please do visit the positive news thread and also, Nation on march thread. India's positive news you seem to know already .

Viv, it's just an explanation towards the rule of law in general. Sheeple are the majority of the population. No person is intrinsically environmentally friendly, they often do so when it is convenient for them. They wouldn't go out of their way and carry trash for hours before finding a trash can. I don't want to digress the thread further or argue semantics, but I think you understood the point I was trying to convey. As people said earlier if the motto is: "when in rome, do what the romans do". Breaking law comes naturally to a foreigner who visits India. They see people bending the rules constantly in order to get ahead of the curve. I would just like to reiterate I'm not defending US behavior, but citing where it gets its confidence when engaging India.

Without further digression, please message me if you want to continue conversing on this topic.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 01 Feb 2014 06:02

Sravan,

While I really hate to take this chain of posts forward, I feel like I have to do it and here goes:

Consider Japan where the USofA has a big base. Now Japanese society is extremely organized and also has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. It also has extremely few law breakers. You can walk around Tokyo, you wont see a single Japanese person eating out on the road. There are also no public trash-cans in Tokyo and you will see no trash on the street... like zero trash.. nada. Compared to that the US is a dump.

Every once in a while, there would be a US soldier accused of some or the other horrendous crime in Japan. And almost all of the time, the US will try to get their person home, by hook or by crook.

Even if India was a hyper developed Class IV Kardashev civilization the US will still be the good ol' USofA.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Feb 2014 06:05

Helloooo! Earth calling BRFees! What happened in Noo Yoik court todin, pls?

AmberG: I saw this under the Blog-e-Kuffar ul Wordpressi:

I didn’t see that request, sorry. Of course, please share with interested/interestable parties. Thanks in advance!

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Feb 2014 06:09

sravan wrote:Which brings me back to my original point, India has crappy inefficient governance.

I would go further than that and say that the Indian governance system (especially in the areas you are talking , nay, venting about) is a crooked one, which is basically gives protection to the current favored incumbents (both private and public) and protects them and their inefficiencies via a plethora of red tape and simply bizarre and labyrinthine regulations and controls , much of them , not written down and even if written down, interpreted by whims and fancies and an opportunity for corrupt people at every level to seek rents and bribes as "speed money" and the use of agents to do things what should be straight forward.

It used to be lot lot worse until the early 90s, and the reforms since then have sort of opened out a large clearing in the forest of red tape and obstructionist rules, but it is not cleaned out yet because in India, the "gradualism" of reforms didn't allow a clean break from the past. That said, it is improving,(albeit slowly), and the pressure needs to be kept up to clear out the remaining stuff.

I deeply empathize with your experience, I am going through a similar one myself. I have something that works brilliantly, my investors and backers are enthused about, have seen it work for them first hand,have made a lot of money on it and want to help me scale . Trouble is what I am doing was legally (at least formally) not allowed in India until April 2013 (it is perfectly legal everywhere else and is an industry running in to nearly a trillion) , the regulations for that were notified in April 2013 and I did a "lungi dance" .. whooppeee. finally the expressway /autobahn has been laid and I can drive @ 250 kmph and scale.. But then, a "circular" comes out after six months and effectively puts a spoke in what I planned to do! And now I and my investors are scrambling around with lawyers and tax attorneys and accountants to see which other "vehicle" /"structure" to use to do what the original April 2013 notification allowed us to do, and mind you , these are Big 4 accountants and top drawer law firms that charge quite a packet by the hour!

The trouble is some brain dead babu can put clauses and rules and make rules on the fly that reflect old habits of command and control and put derail you and make you waste a lot of time and money. In NYC for instance, this would have got done within 30minutes (because the path is well worn) and I would be spending all my time raising capital and working on my stuff, instead of with lawyers an accountants and this when my backers and investors are literally absolutely top drawer names of stellar reputation and standing!

It is largely OT here, but suffice to say, that things in India have improved (for eg, the experience to renew your driving license in Bangalore is a lot going to the DMV in New York, only that , you still have to "go" to a tout doctor (meaning an agent will get the doctor's certificate) , which the DMV folks will do themselves, the rest of it is similar, your license comes home by post).The Income Tax thing has been largely cleaned up in India, it is no a torture to file anymore (atleast basic stuff, the Service and Indirect and other taxes are a nightmare I accept, which is true in the US as well). The role of the Govt in US is limited compared to India , we have a legacy mindset and habit of nearly 60 years of being obstructionist , even if some well meaning folks at top want to change it to a facilitating culture. However, at the lower levels, this ability to harass and seek rents is too much of a vested interest for them to let go without some major house cleaning. This is where I was hoping that the AAP and their "Jhadoo" (broom) would do the trick, but those guys seem basically unhinged and wont seem to last long. But their basic ilk is necessary.

As for your signature, no need to sign anything and send by $54 mail. Next time you are in India, get your self a digital signature (Level 2), I got my self from e-Mudra , it is a 5 minute affair here in Bangalore, you apply and pay online and walk into their office here and walk out with the e signature USB key valid for 2 years and by law you can sign any document digitally . Helps a great deal and you can sign everything and send by email and follow up by phone. You dont need to go to any place physically. Highly recommend it.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 01 Feb 2014 06:12

LokeshC wrote:Sravan,

While I really hate to take this chain of posts forward, I feel like I have to do it and here goes:

Consider Japan where the USofA has a big base. Now Japanese society is extremely organized and also has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. It also has extremely few law breakers. You can walk around Tokyo, you wont see a single Japanese person eating out on the road. There are also no public trash-cans in Tokyo and you will see no trash on the street... like zero trash.. nada. Compared to that the US is a dump.

Every once in a while, there would be a US soldier accused of some or the other horrendous crime in Japan. And almost all of the time, the US will try to get their person home, by hook or by crook.

Even if India was a hyper developed Class IV Kardashev civilization the US will still be the good ol' USofA.

If India was as developed as Japan, the size of the economy would dwarf the US. In terms of military, strategic space and other scientific advancements, India would dominate the fields of automation and other various industries. You wouldn't have this conversation with me. USA wouldn't dare pull a case like Devyani in that situation. Japan's population is roughly equal to UP and they openly challenged the US in the 40's. Their confidence was struck down because the US over powered them in 1945 with nuclear weapons.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Feb 2014 06:19

vina, thx, may your goats multiply and drop plenty on those obstructive Babus. Maybe eat their langottis right off the drying line. That was my hopeful diagnosis too. Trouble is, I messed up something or other (like mailing address) on the first submission, and immediately submitted a corrected second. Got ACK for both.. This is what causes the twinge in the musharraf. But good advice.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Feb 2014 06:59

UlanBatori wrote:Address--.

With all the IT/Vity stuff here, I dont have a cheque book anymore. All electronic payment and receipts onree and extensive use of cards, just like in the YouYess, even in small places, in all of S. India, nearly everyone accepts cards here, you can get away with less than Rs500 in your pocket (mine is usually Rs 150).

So you can ask for refunds electronically. Zimble onree when filing your returns, just give your account number and ISFC Code (should be there in your check book/can be looked up online) and you get your cash back directly. No paper , faster and fool proof.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Feb 2014 07:16

AoA!

If India was as developed as Japan

Then India would have taken over Bakistan, liberated Occupied Kashmir and Aksai Chin, and the borders would be in Kandahar allowing free sloshing of the waves of Hyoomanity across all of South Asia, and the 160 million TFTA would have taken over North India in the only and last elections to be held, and hoisted the appropriate flag over the Lal Quila, declared the Khilafa, funded a few terrorist strikes, and been bombed to the Stone Ages by the GOAT by now.. Like Afghanistan, only scaled up, Reliance-Style. Be careful what you wish for..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2014 07:24

Sravan, Matrimc thanks for your responses to my post/ Matrimc I think you have completely misunderstood what I have been trying to express but that is not your fault - I am trying to express something that is not easy to explain but I believe is relevant and this has no connection with grudging Indian Americans their success. Please don't look at it that way because that simply deviates from what I believe is more relevant. This topic could go across several threads but I will stick to what is relevant here.

I find it odd that 85% of Indian immigrants in the US are wealthy, while 60 to 66% of immigrants from Mexico/Honduras/Haiti/Guatemala are poor. All are immigrants. Why should one set remain poor in America where they have ostensibly gone to improve their lot? The statement that even the poor in America lead a better life than they would have done in their country of origin is a poor excuse. It is a burkha for the fact that for all the rhetoric that one hears from the US that everyone has an equal opportunity to make it in the US is not strictly accurate. Mexicans and other South Americans simply do not "make it" in the US like Indians do.

There is an explanation for this and please say if you believe the explanation is inaccurate or wrong. It is the US system that controls immigration as much as physically possible. The US needs, as immigrants, all sorts of people. They need skilled people as well as unskilled people. They will allow in a fixed number of skilled and unskilled people into the US based on what the US is thought to need, to fill jobs and gaps in the US. Immigration is not an open route for anyone. When the US needs skilled people they will pick and choose skilled people who seek immigration to the US. It so happens that Indians are available for that. When the US needs unskilled people for farm labor, nannies or as construction workers, they could still choose Indians. India has plenty of people who can help the US in that sector. But the US chooses Mexicans over Indians for these unskilled jobs. There must be doctors and engineers in Mexico who could fill up the US's requirements, but I think India outscores Mexico in this department.

That means immigration to the US is need based and controlled, and the "economic success" of a particular group depends on the primary reason for which they were allowed to enter the US in the first place. This is not stated as an insult to the success of Indians and should not be taken that way. Skilled Indians are imported and absorbed in skilled, high paying jobs. Unskilled Mexicans are imported and no one in America is trying to make college professors out of them after they enter the US. They have been allowed in to fill up certain types of jobs they are filling up low paying jobs.

How is this relevant to India?

India has a huge population of uneducated unskilled people - more in the class of Mexican immigrants to the US. India's condition can be explained by the huge load of poor and unskilled people who constitute the Indian population.

The questions I have are
1. What is the US doing to reduce poverty among Mexican and other immigrants who remain poor?
2. What are the actual day to day problems faced by the poor in America and how are those problems being addressed in the US?. if some of those solutions used by the US are relevant to India, maybe they can be tried in India?

At least some of the discussions on this thread and on the Positive/Good news thread suggest to me that the US is trying to solve (or give lectures about) social problems in India while being perfectly callous and uncaring about its own poor. If that is correct, I would like to point out that as a relatively well off person in India I am also guilty of being perfectly callous and uncaring about the poor in India and do not want to see American solutions for a situation that I see as good for my life. I get cheap domestic labor and that suits me fine. Things get done the way I want for me in India and they get done fast when I need them to be done fast, and I really don't give a damn if things are not working for others in India as long as my situation is good for me.

Poverty and inequality are problems that are claimed to exist in the US. They exist in India as well to a much larger degree. What is the US doing to reduce poverty and inequality in the US? if these solutions are good, can they be applied to India?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Feb 2014 07:25

Ooo! My sources are faster than PeeAref's usual Anmol-speed sources.

Muggers Have Not Grown Brains

“Having left the United States and returned to India,” Bharara’s office said today in a court filing opposing Khobragade’s request, “the defendant currently has no diplomatic or consular status in the United States (**why is that even relevant?***), and the consular level immunity that she did have at the relevant time does not give her immunity for the charges in this case, crimes arising out of non-official acts.”

Khobragade’s lawyer, Daniel Arshack, said in an e-mail that the legal issues will be resolved by the court.
“The United States Attorney’s Office is again wrong on the facts and on the law,” Arshack said.
The case is U.S. v. Khobragade, 14-cr-0008, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan).
To contact the reporter on this story: Bob Van Voris in federal court in Manhattan at [email protected]

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 01 Feb 2014 07:46

Sravan wrote:
Viv, it's just an explanation towards the rule of law in general. Sheeple are the majority of the population. ...Breaking law comes naturally to a foreigner who visits India. ..

Quite so, Sheeple coming to India behave as sheeple. And that point is taken and such people taken out of contention.
That some, claiming to be law-abiding non-sheeple, think all are sheeple on the other side and so break rule is not a strong point. They only appear non-sheeple. Let us put it away as well as it is no excuse when caught and especially when claiming to be law-abiding non-sheeple. Let us put this discussion aside too.

But please do, with our without PM, consider the following and ignore the rest too:

... in this situation law of USA does not seem to have been followed unless US law does not provide for diplomatic immunity. I'm sure reading of this thread has acquainted you with other lapses and instances where the law was not followed. .....

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Feb 2014 07:47

In the Yoo Ess it is easy to get Felony Charges:

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 01 Feb 2014 07:48

Shreeman wrote:And I say the same to matrimc, there are no direct comparisons possible sometimes. what you want is the same that a hundred very bad people want too. This creates a TSA everywhere.

I am not the one who is doing direct comparisons. I answered to Shiv's direct comparison of ween UK and US as relates to their delaings with India. My point is that it cannot be done. It is like the five blind men trying to get the concept of what an elephant is. My guess is that Shiv (and probably you for that matter) have experiences different from mine. So how is this direct comparison? If at all it is a comparison of my perception vs. your perception.

As for Sravan's posts I do not agree with most of what he says but only one or two points. No, I do not have any burning desire to change the world or take up any burdens which are not mine. I lived and worked in India for a long time as well as in US.

I do know how the SBIRs work. The truth is somewhere between what you said and the ideal situation. That said, I would not touch these with a barge pole. May be they were worth pursuing a decade and half back but as of now they are a waste of time. Second and third phases in most cases do not materialize.

Excuse me but I am very late to start my own cave diving. The head gorilla is getting a little antsy.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 01 Feb 2014 07:51

ramana wrote:VijayKM et al, Please work on a short article with refs of Google's page ranking system.

I suspect its paid news algorithm at the background. Propaganda is a given to give importance to NYT. OTH it also puts Fox News type of conservative opinion at an disadvantage. This being an election year in US it could make some waves.

Potential Title: Beware! When you Google all you may get are liberal propaganda doodles!

If you search "liberal bias google" in Bing you get some old articles..

http://www.newmediajournal.us/daily_col ... _index.htm

http://cjv123.hubpages.com/hub/Googles-Liberal-Bias

http://newsbusters.org/node/8355

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 01 Feb 2014 07:58

India has a million problems, but whipping up discussions about this in response to DK fiasco is malicious. I'm not referring to the intent of the posters here but to the CIA agents posting in various blogs on the DK affair. There is a huge keyboard warrior brigade which was effectively deployed by CIA across the blogosphere/ social media and news sites.

Suppose a US diplomat gets raped in India, can we quote these statistics below and ask what's the big deal?:

14,827 murders i.e one every 40 minutes
84,376 rapes i.e one every 7 minutes
3,54,520 robberies i.e one every 90 seconds
760,739 assaults i.e one every 45 seconds
89,75,438 property crimes i.e 17 crimes every second

These are US crime statistics from FBI for 2012 and these do not even include crime stats of other law enforcement agencies/ unreported crimes.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Feb 2014 08:04

matrimc wrote:
Shreeman wrote:And I say the same to matrimc, there are no direct comparisons possible sometimes. what you want is the same that a hundred very bad people want too. This creates a TSA everywhere.
I am not the one who is doing direct comparisons. I answered to Shiv's direct comparison of ween UK and US as relates to their delaings with India. My point is that it cannot be done. It is like the five blind men trying to get the concept of what an elephant is. My guess is that Shiv (and probably you for that matter) have experiences different from mine. So how is this direct comparison? If at all it is a comparison of my perception vs. your perception.

As for Sravan's posts I do not agree with most of what he says but only one or two points. No, I do not have any burning desire to change the world or take up any burdens which are not mine. I lived and worked in India for a long time as well as in US.

I do know how the SBIRs work. The truth is somewhere between what you said and the ideal situation. That said, I would not touch these with a barge pole. May be they were worth pursuing a decade and half back but as of now they are a waste of time. Second and third phases in most cases do not materialize.

Excuse me but I am very late to start my own cave diving. The head gorilla is getting a little antsy.

para 1 - you misunderstood.

para 2 - nothing more to say.

para 3 - directed at sravn, not you. may be you can guide him, he appears young and motivated.

(ps - also sent back to cave muttering incomprehensibles)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2014 08:26

The US has no obligation to help India in any way. But if the US somehow did want to help India, I suggest that they could allow the immigration of several million poor and uneducated Indians into the US every year. Those Indians who are poor and uneducated in India will remain poor and uneducated in the US, just like poor uneducated migrants from Mexico would remain poor and uneducated in the US. But their poverty in the US would still ensure that they are better off than they were in India(or Mexico). But for all that they would be in a free nation where there is no caste, no slavery and no discrimination.

To me - this is one way the US could not only help India, but win the gratitude of millions of Indians. But the US trying to selectively apply social standards on a few select Indians in India or in America while the poor in America get little to make their lives absolutely better in America (rather than relatively better than the poor in Mexico/Honduras) is simply a political act which requires political responses. The US is simply putting on a show that it cares for some issues that it does not really care for.

Alternatively, rather than lecturing India about slavery and caste, the US could show exactly how it is eradicating poverty among the poor in America - or at least indicate what the US does to blunt the sharp edges of poverty in the US ensuring justice, freedom and equality for all people in the USA. mybe there is something for india to learn there?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Feb 2014 08:35

I am old, so have stories, but I am young compared to some. So I will leave this one for them to complete, if they wish. I only heard it, this was not one of those wrong times. This is more than 10 years old,

shreeman wrote: There was once a professor. He was young and motivated too, like some of you.

For his hard work, he invited some guests. One in particular, may be just like sravan.

Then the young guest had to get some paperwork, he filled out the forms.

There is always some bulls*it going on, or may be he was unlucky. Any way, the answer came for the forms -- vijja denied.

In the middle, not start, not close to the end. The professor came unto this here phorum, "instructions unclear, student stuck in lalaland".

We tried everything, is there no god? he said. Guess where he found the deity and what happened next?

And it is that generation of students that is writing here today. Those that know can complete the story if they blike.

My brief ends here.

And a story is just that, one story.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Feb 2014 09:06

Folks major thread hijack. As many posters have pointed out its about Indo-US Strategic News and Discussions. Its not about doing business in India or how it sucks. The whole forum is there for that.
So please spare us.

Thanks,
ramana

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 01 Feb 2014 10:13

shiv wrote:At least some of the discussions on this thread and on the Positive/Good news thread suggest to me that the US is trying to solve (or give lectures about) social problems in India while being perfectly callous and uncaring about its own poor. If that is correct, ...
Poverty and inequality are problems that are claimed to exist in the US. They exist in India as well to a much larger degree. What is the US doing to reduce poverty and inequality in the US? if these solutions are good, can they be applied to India?

Shiv ji, thanks for a very lucid post. US is by and large a "me" society and what you say is correct in that US solutions of uplifting their poor cannot be applied to India. My humble (actually a very humble) opinion is that the US has peaked and so has the world. There is not much growth possible (but then I am a realist - a "pessimist" in the eyes of the optimists) because of the rate at which scarce resources (especially energy) are being exhausted like there is no tomorrow. US is in the vanguard with a motley following consisting of the developed western nations. If the US citizens do not get out of their conspicuous consumption ways and not change "the man who dies with the most toys wins" attitude, others who are denied access to these resources will turn on the heat by entering into direct and indirect conflicts of increasing intensity. The end result is chaos and everybody is a loser. But guess what? This is not an immediate problem (at least for next three generations). The powers that be in US are nothing if not shortsighted - just lok at the doyens of the business in US they care for nothing beyond the quarterly P&Ls and stock prices and they are the ones who control the pols.

So, yes, not much to learn from US - only another 100 years is what it would take for India to reach a long lasting quiescent state - a kind of equilibrium.
(ramana garu, sorry. Saw your warning after I posted. Please feel free to delete or I can move it where you want it to go).

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 01 Feb 2014 12:08

Safe Horizon trying to put lipstick to look better than a pit bull

How A Financial Analyst From Indonesia Wound Up Being A Sex Slave In New York City

After weeks of living rough, with the police, church, and the FBI all refusing to believe her story -- and even falling into the hands of another pimp -- Shandra, whose passport and all documents had been stripped from her on day one, finally found help with a victim's agency called Safe Horizon.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2014 12:10

New York: Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat whose December arrest led to a major international dispute, holds no immunity from US prosecution and should continue to faces charges of visa fraud, Manhattan federal prosecutors said in court papers filed Friday.

Khobragade was arrested on December 12 on charges that she lied to US authorities about what she paid her housekeeper. She was stripped-searched while detained in Manhattan federal courthouse, which led to a diplomatic firestorm between India and the United States that continued for weeks.
Manhattan US Attorney Preet Bharara's office argues in the court filings that Khobragade is a former diplomat and not immune from prosecution.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Feb 2014 12:22

If that is the case, then the sec 377 needs to be applied and the US needs to feel the pain.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 01 Feb 2014 14:40

My prediction was correct. PB is arguing that at the time of her arrest she was not working for UN. She was only doing Consular function with limited immunity so she could be prosecuted for 'criminal charges' done on personal capacity. So the only option left is to fight the case on merits. What is the procedure for that? PB should get egg on his face for his actions while he is in power , not after he is somewhere else. He should loose the case against DK.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 01 Feb 2014 15:04

shiv wrote:Sravan, Matrimc thanks for your responses to my post/ Matrimc I think you have completely misunderstood what I have been trying to express but that is not your fault - I am trying to express something that is not easy to explain but I believe is relevant and this has no connection with grudging Indian Americans their success. Please don't look at it that way because that simply deviates from what I believe is more relevant. This topic could go across several threads but I will stick to what is relevant here.

I find it odd that 85% of Indian immigrants in the US are wealthy, while 60 to 66% of immigrants from Mexico/Honduras/Haiti/Guatemala are poor. All are immigrants. Why should one set remain poor in America where they have ostensibly gone to improve their lot? The statement that even the poor in America lead a better life than they would have done in their country of origin is a poor excuse. It is a burkha for the fact that for all the rhetoric that one hears from the US that everyone has an equal opportunity to make it in the US is not strictly accurate. Mexicans and other South Americans simply do not "make it" in the US like Indians do.

There is an explanation for this and please say if you believe the explanation is inaccurate or wrong. It is the US system that controls immigration as much as physically possible. The US needs, as immigrants, all sorts of people. They need skilled people as well as unskilled people. They will allow in a fixed number of skilled and unskilled people into the US based on what the US is thought to need, to fill jobs and gaps in the US. Immigration is not an open route for anyone. When the US needs skilled people they will pick and choose skilled people who seek immigration to the US. It so happens that Indians are available for that. When the US needs unskilled people for farm labor, nannies or as construction workers, they could still choose Indians. India has plenty of people who can help the US in that sector. But the US chooses Mexicans over Indians for these unskilled jobs. There must be doctors and engineers in Mexico who could fill up the US's requirements, but I think India outscores Mexico in this department.

That means immigration to the US is need based and controlled, and the "economic success" of a particular group depends on the primary reason for which they were allowed to enter the US in the first place. This is not stated as an insult to the success of Indians and should not be taken that way. Skilled Indians are imported and absorbed in skilled, high paying jobs. Unskilled Mexicans are imported and no one in America is trying to make college professors out of them after they enter the US. They have been allowed in to fill up certain types of jobs they are filling up low paying jobs.

How is this relevant to India?

India has a huge population of uneducated unskilled people - more in the class of Mexican immigrants to the US. India's condition can be explained by the huge load of poor and unskilled people who constitute the Indian population.

The questions I have are
1. What is the US doing to reduce poverty among Mexican and other immigrants who remain poor?
2. What are the actual day to day problems faced by the poor in America and how are those problems being addressed in the US?. if some of those solutions used by the US are relevant to India, maybe they can be tried in India?

At least some of the discussions on this thread and on the Positive/Good news thread suggest to me that the US is trying to solve (or give lectures about) social problems in India while being perfectly callous and uncaring about its own poor. If that is correct, I would like to point out that as a relatively well off person in India I am also guilty of being perfectly callous and uncaring about the poor in India and do not want to see American solutions for a situation that I see as good for my life. I get cheap domestic labor and that suits me fine. Things get done the way I want for me in India and they get done fast when I need them to be done fast, and I really don't give a damn if things are not working for others in India as long as my situation is good for me.

Poverty and inequality are problems that are claimed to exist in the US. They exist in India as well to a much larger degree. What is the US doing to reduce poverty and inequality in the US? if these solutions are good, can they be applied to India?

Shiv,

I completely agree with this post. The US pick and chooses the best for it's labor. Mexican immigrants are mostly for unskilled labor. It's not that it doesn't choose Indians but most of the immigration into the US from Mexico is undocumented. Therefore these immigrants are forced to do unskilled labor because they wouldn't qualify to obtain a driver's license or a social security number. Therefore an under the radar job is the only option for most of them. The US authorities turn a blind eye, because they are doing jobs that no one else wants to do. The incarceration rate among minorities in the US is high, also this is due to the living standards and immediate surroundings of said minorities.

That being said, US also imports highly skilled labor from Mexico and is contemplating making Mexico the new manufacturing hub for it's consumption. The reason being that China is closing in on the cost of producing goods in Mexico. The US can avoid the shipping fees and get similar prices on labor. Expect that growth to come in the next decade or two.

Thirdly, US will be energy independent within the next two decades. You can expect the foreign policy of America to completely change to become more insular and protective of it's energy resources. Four, automation is taking off in America. 3D printing technology is being groomed to make everything from rockets to houses. You can expect an order of magnitude shift in the value of labor. Everything from cars to trains to vacuum cleaners will be automated in the US in the next decade or so. The rate of increase in computation will also lead to rapid advances in scientific discoveries which will make present day problems irrelevant.

The rise of quantum computing and neural networks based search engines will create very intelligent frameworks for the next generation of Internet to thrive. The rise of Internet of Things will make everything self aware and predictive analytics will be used to optimize energy production and consumption. The US is entering an era where human labor is not a big issue. I would say in 5 to 10 years time, you will be able to download a design and send it to a 3d printer at Kinkos which can 3d print anything from a laptop charger to any electronic devices you want.

So it is hard for me to predict how things will evolve in the future, but I anticipate Mexico becoming a manufacturing hub for the North American regions. I also anticipate more automation and more optimization of infrastructure. The US is going to go lean and I think this is a good deviation from the current energy consuming wasteful American society. You can also see the change in the pop culture and the rise of the nerd lifestyle. It's cool to be vegetarian, it's cool to get good gas mileage and have a low horse power engine.

As far as I can predict, US is going to change it's attitude and will be different from how it is perceived today.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 01 Feb 2014 15:27

Sravan wrote: It's cool to be vegetarian, it's cool to get good gas mileage and have a low horse power engine.

As far as I can predict, US is going to change it's attitude and will be different from how it is perceived today.

Sravan, nothing per se against your post, but can I request some of these gooey "feel good" stuff be kept in abeyance until the current India-US issues are resolved ?

The US first needs to live down Alicia May before we hear platitudes about "cool to be vegetarian"-type Americans. And the US needs to show hard evidence of change in attitude in conducting diplomacy with its "strategic partner"...The latest moves from PB show little evidence of any learnings so far.

Sravan · Post by **Sravan** » 01 Feb 2014 16:12

Arjun wrote:
Sravan wrote: It's cool to be vegetarian, it's cool to get good gas mileage and have a low horse power engine.

As far as I can predict, US is going to change it's attitude and will be different from how it is perceived today.
Sravan, nothing per se against your post, but can I request some of these gooey "feel good" stuff be kept in abeyance until the current India-US issues are resolved ?

The US first needs to live down Alicia May before we hear platitudes about "cool to be vegetarian"-type Americans. And the US needs to show hard evidence of change in attitude in conducting diplomacy with its "strategic partner"...The latest moves from PB show little evidence of any learnings so far.

Sure no problem. I'm simply replying to inquiries.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Feb 2014 16:13

Sravan wrote:
Thirdly, US will be energy independent within the next two decades. You can expect the foreign policy of America to completely change to become more insular and protective of it's energy resources. Four, automation is taking off in America. 3D printing technology is being groomed to make everything from rockets to houses. You can expect an order of magnitude shift in the value of labor. Everything from cars to trains to vacuum cleaners will be automated in the US in the next decade or so. The rate of increase in computation will also lead to rapid advances in scientific discoveries which will make present day problems irrelevant.

The rise of quantum computing and neural networks based search engines will create very intelligent frameworks for the next generation of Internet to thrive. The rise of Internet of Things will make everything self aware and predictive analytics will be used to optimize energy production and consumption. The US is entering an era where human labor is not a big issue. I would say in 5 to 10 years time, you will be able to download a design and send it to a 3d printer at Kinkos which can 3d print anything from a laptop charger to any electronic devices you want.

Sravan, in the 1960s exactly the same predictions were being made about endless energy and perpetual leisure for people. It was all slated to start sometime in the 1980s. In fact, according to what I was assured when I was a boy, we should have had colonies on the moon by now. The basic technology building blocks were all there so it was all easy to believe, just like the predictions you have made.

In 1965 when someone told me all that would happen by 1985 there was no way I could dispute it. Similarly, if someone tells you that what you say will be the future by 2034, it is difficult to dispute it. But when I see the same predictions being made 50 years later when the earlier generations who heard the predictions are still about, I have the right to think that there is a scam here. It is fine to think positive, but it is always safe to smell a rat - especially if what was supposed to have happened 30 years ago is now due to come to pass in another 20 years.

The best thing about long term predictions is most people will be old or dead by the time the predictions are supposed to come into fruition. Only those who are not dead will see that there is a huge scam that is still continuing. It helps someone to continue this scam and it is worth looking at who will benefit if people think that the future is so rosy. Long term lies are told by people who need to keep other people patient and waiting, putting up with nonsense now because things will get good in future. You need not believe this, but it happens too often. The problem with history is that there is so much of it that you are hitting 50 or 60 before you really get to know how many have been conned by leaders and for how long.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Feb 2014 17:08

The New US will be this wonderland of Fracking fields dumping mega gazillion tons of methane into the atmosphere, drinking water with the fragrance of petrol, oil pipelines all over the landscape, the whine of gas turbine power plants running natural gas from fracking, POTUSes lecturing India on the Need to Control Emissions, Pakis trying to blow up the pipelines, and (veggie) burger-eating matrons sitting in Tampa controlling drones blowing up Pakis in Waziristan. The Fire Truck industry should boom, pun intended, when texting drivers of hydrogen cars proliferate and run into hydrogen filling stations. And most real estate in the US will be owned by the Chou En Lai Peace and Harmony (PLA) Real Estate Agency. But very little will have changed with the mindsets of the SD and Central Park muggers, and bhararas doing Cavity Searches to prevent damsels from getting into distress. Or the literacy of Agint Markos Bin Smithullah or Alicia May types. Atlanta will still get gridlocked every time a snowflake hits the ground.

Pooch for this thread is, what will happen to India-US Strategic whatever? I suppose the Indian Ambassador will deliver speeches that no American will understand, and the Marshalls Service and TSA will be waiting outside to Cavity-Search him/her. And the GOI will do (????????) about that.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 01 Feb 2014 18:44

Pooch for this thread is, what will happen to India-US Strategic whatever?

Oh, it will go along as usual, half-a**ed, stumbling, unless some emergency of unusal importance threatens both countries at the same time, which frankly, is unlikely to happen. Face it, we're never going to see eye to eye. Most people in the US flat don't care.