India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[UlanBatori]

Ah! Yes, of course, the rush to defend and rationalize the indefensible. That is what is called "M*T*" when applied to Americans. So enshrined in Brish1t history with the famous words of the British "Judge" who conducted the inquiry about the Jallianwala Bagh "pacification":

Gentlemen of the Jury, what-what, I say! Whatevah be the so-called evidence presented, please remembah! That General O-Dwyer saved the British Empiah!

a) When "these things" happened "40 years ago", the Brish*ts already had over 300 years' experience of invading, virginity-testing and virginity-ending nations all over the world, and enslaving them. So, unlike native-born Americans, there had been plenty of opportunity to learn cultural sensitivity etc.

b) I see that these events of 40 years ago have only now been "declassified" and put out on the web. The reason I knew to search for them, was that I still clearly remember having read in the newspapers about them as they happened, just as I read about the American display of sensitivity in December. So what is happening now in "modern", "dynamic" Britain, that will only "come out" 40 years from now? We already know that Britain as Poodlestan was complicit in the NSA snooping activities.. including the cameras placed looking down from the trees at Balmoral Castle to see the Princesses and horse-grooms in action..

c) Perhaps I missed it, but have the criminals of 40 years ago been hanged, drawn and quartered yet? Or they walk around Scot- Brit-Free? Do you know the names of the criminals even? Was it His Grace Lawd Thickfinger, perhaps?

So please spare us unwashed savages the insult to our intelligence. And memory.

[Lisa]

Ill say it again, this is the wrong thread.

Last post on this matter. You appear to be like a man who is an authority on swimming because you once read a book on it despite the fact that you have never even seen water! If you had been to the UK recently you would know how far out of touch you really are with 'Ground Realities' and how irrelevant your post is but then you appear to have read a book so I differ to your superior opinion.

P.S. wishing you well with your memories of the Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Mongols, Moguls, Huns, Goths, Brits, etc

[UlanBatori]

It is not the wrong thread because you came here with your comparison of American insensitivity with Brish1t sensitivity, and I simply provided evidence of that Brish1t sensitivity. The posts I made are from Brish1t newspaper reports, citing Brish1t declassified reports, confirming what I read in the newspapers many years ago.
I understand, what-what, the truth hurts as much as a Cavity Search. For as that great Brish1t poet plagiarized:

What's in a name?
A Virginity Test by any other name stinks the same!

P.S. I HAVE been to "modern" Britain and seen the "realities" there up close. As the (British) professor there said with admirable sensitivity when I smiled at his (American) colleague's exhortation to go see the Brish1t Museum:

Why would he want to go see that? It's all stuff stolen and looted from his native land!

To paraphrase someone else:

One Nation under Fog, built entirely on deceit, thievery, loot, rape, pillage and slavery, and the proceeds thereof.

The problem between US and India right now is a feeling of outraged trust and friendship. Nothing of the sort with the Brish1t: we all KNOW what to expect of those.

Oh! and THANKS! When I first saw the report of this "cavity search", the "Virginity Tests" are what came to mind. But I didn't want to derail the search for the truth here, given that most of these postors and readers have no memory of that, and would not know where to look to find it. So thanks very much for giving me the opportunity to educate them about Brish1t sensitivity. And enjoy the Shariah which you have now instituted, as the logical outcome of your "modern" sensitivity. They will simply mandate circumcision, which should make the Virginity Tests so much more "sensitive".

[TSJones]

Ill say it again, this is the wrong thread.

Last post on this matter. You appear to be like a man who is an authority on swimming because you once read a book on it despite the fact that you have never even seen water! If you had been to the UK recently you would know how far out of touch you really are with 'Ground Realities' and how irrelevant your post is but then you appear to have read a book so I differ to your superior opinion.

P.S. wishing you well with your memories of the Nazis, Fascists, Communists, Mongols, Moguls, Huns, Goths, Brits, etc

Lisa, please don't pick on the Mongol amidst the frozen peach trees! He has to live and teach all those racists!

[UlanBatori]

Lawd Have Messy! Up early for a Sunday aren't we, TSJ! And Super Sunday too!

[member_28380]

Ah! Yes, of course, the rush to defend and rationalize the indefensible. That is what is called "M*T*" when applied to Americans. So enshrined in Brish1t history with the famous words of the British "Judge" who conducted the inquiry about the Jallianwala Bagh "pacification":

Gentlemen of the Jury, what-what, I say! Whatevah be the so-called evidence presented, please remembah! That General O-Dwyer saved the British Empiah!

a) When "these things" happened "40 years ago", the Brish*ts already had over 300 years' experience of invading, virginity-testing and virginity-ending nations all over the world, and enslaving them. So, unlike native-born Americans, there had been plenty of opportunity to learn cultural sensitivity etc.

b) I see that these events of 40 years ago have only now been "declassified" and put out on the web. The reason I knew to search for them, was that I still clearly remember having read in the newspapers about them as they happened, just as I read about the American display of sensitivity in December. So what is happening now in "modern", "dynamic" Britain, that will only "come out" 40 years from now? We already know that Britain as Poodlestan was complicit in the NSA snooping activities.. including the cameras placed looking down from the trees at Balmoral Castle to see the Princesses and horse-grooms in action..

c) Perhaps I missed it, but have the criminals of 40 years ago been hanged, drawn and quartered yet? Or they walk around Scot- Brit-Free? Do you know the names of the criminals even? Was it His Grace Lawd Thickfinger, perhaps?

So please spare us unwashed savages the insult to our intelligence. And memory.

Not withstanding Jalian wala bagh, strategically we should accept and appreciate British sympathy / support on this matter even in an anonymous blog

[UlanBatori]

Just as Indians accepted American sympathy when the issue of Virginity Tests was exposed at the United Nations in the 70s. Which ensured that Britain was not alone in vetoing the resolution condemning that barbarity. Oh, so sensitive those Americans (of the 1970s) compared to the British savages!

[member_28380]

14,827 murders i.e one every 40 minutes
84,376 rapes i.e one every 7 minutes
3,54,520 robberies i.e one every 90 seconds
760,739 assaults i.e one every 45 seconds
89,75,438 property crimes i.e 17 crimes every second

These are US crime statistics from FBI for 2012 and these do not even include crime stats of other law enforcement agencies/ unreported crimes.

Saar, these are useful stats, could you please share the source link? I couldn't find these numbers on the FBI's crime stats site. In any case, we at BR need to have such ready refs to counter the rape/violence against women narrative that is being built up gratuitously for India.

Took it from another blog:
http://recklessmusings.blogspot.com/


but the numbers are here at FBI site:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... datadecpdf

[member_28380]

http://www.telegraphindia.com:8080/1140 ... u0wiPmSzKc

BIG BROTHERLY POSTURING

Kanwal Sibal

The Devyani Khobragade affair that has rocked India and the United States of America’s relations so unexpectedly carries many lessons. It has highlighted the inherent difficulty in forging an equal relationship with the US. The US’s attitude towards other countries is conditioned by its status as the world’s pre-eminent power, its view of itself as the repository of the best political, economic and human values which it seeks to universalize, its urge to constantly judge others and rank countries in accordance with the degree to which they measure up to its values and its willingness to impose these by force if necessary, even if that entails terrible misery for others.

The US has escalated a minor wage dispute between an Indian diplomat and her India-based maid beyond all proportion in a stubborn bid to apply its labour laws to domestic staff of foreign diplomats as if they are immigrants and employed from the local labour pool. If US society was perfect, without any exploitation, injustice and discrimination, if its institutions protected unfailingly the dignity and human rights of every individual, if its police forces were exemplary in their conduct, then the obstinate efforts to ensure that a foreign diplomat conformed to its pristine standards might make some sense. The Devyani episode shows that at the highest level US decision-makers are willing to jeopardize an important relationship on a narrow point of law applied arbitrarily. India could also face unpredictable US behaviour tomorrow on some other issue on which the Americans mulishly uphold some principle of their own making. This makes the reliability of the US as a partner uncertain. If the US political class can allow, as we have seen, a significant relationship to be gratuitously buffeted by secondary issues, it would be unwise to become over-dependent on it. We should keep enough distance from the US so that our ability to resist its encroachment on our rights and sovereignty is not lost.

American rhetoric about India should be discounted. Grandiloquent language comes easily to the Americans, and flattering phrases from the world’s foremost power can be beguiling. How can the US talk of helping India become a great power — a patronizing attitude in the first place — if it is ready to humiliate India on a minor wage issue? The Devyani affair and the decision to evacuate Indian nationals was not simply a mis-step by some overzealous individuals, the US ambassador in India and the state department were involved in it over months. The inability of the secretary of state and the White House to appreciate properly the consequences of US action on India-US relations and the unwillingness to intervene in a timely manner points to serious deficiencies in political monitoring of the processes of decision-making in the state and justice departments.

For all the inflated talk of India and the US being the world’s largest and oldest democracies and sharing the same values, the reality is that the US internally scoffs at the institutions of democracy in India, as the egregious act of evacuating Indian citizens from the purview of Indian courts shows. Indians have been the largest recipient of US visas that are associated with severe sex or labour trafficking. That our authorities have not monitored such an assault on our legal system is inexcusable. With the pervasive view that the US and India were now genuine strategic partners, our inclination has been not to disturb the relationship and even overlook objectionable US behaviour. In spite of Edward Snowden’s revelations about India being the fifth largest victim of US snooping, we have preferred to bury the issue. Time has now come to clamp down hard on the US embassy by warning it in writing that such evacuation amounts to interference in India’s internal affairs and, if continued, will expose their diplomats to legal action. The credentials of the expelled US diplomat’s replacement should be scrutinized carefully and the visa granted on the specific condition that he will not be involved in such activities.

Beyond this, we should move towards reducing the size of the US missions in India. Our most important relationship in many ways is with the US, but we have a small embassy there. India is by no means the most important country for the US but it has one of its largest embassies here — 10 times the size of our embassy in Washington. One clear explanation for the discrepancy in size is that we do not monitor US internal affairs on a scale that the US does or try to penetrate its political and administrative structures. We should ease out surplus US diplomats dealing with human rights and trafficking issues as well as those handling communications to prevent snooping. Besides imposing security burdens on us, an over-staffed embassy gives the US means to more easily penetrate our system, influence and monitor decision-making, create lobbies that will advocate the US viewpoint even against our national interest and shield the US from retaliatory action for unacceptable conduct. The cover of intensive friendly engagement and numerous dialogues gives the US key platforms to push their agenda; we should not increase our vulnerability unwittingly.

The commentary in the mainstream US press on the Devyani affair carries a lesson for us too. It has been parochial, full of condescension, narrow political thinking and cultural insensitivity. Editorials have poured scorn on Indian reactions as being petty, unbecoming of a democracy and a would-be great power. If India had dutifully accepted the affront as well-deserved and applauded the application of US humane laws to one of our erring diplomats, we would have, of course, proven our democratic and potential big power credentials. Our reflexes have been compared to those of Russia and China. India, it seems, cannot aspire to great power status outside US control of its world-view. The US press has also scoffed at the addiction of our middle class to domestic servants, its maltreatment of the underclasses — a harking back to attitudes before the nuclear deal, India’s growth story and its success in information technology. If tomorrow there are substantive policy differences with the US, the American press will unleash itself against us, distorting our case with the American public.

The US manipulation of our own media puts us at a double disadvantage. Its tactics in highlighting the removal of barricades around the US embassy as a vengeful act threatening the security of US diplomats — which is false — succeeded partially. In a bid to isolate the external affairs ministry, US-linked editors have launched tirades against the Indian Foreign Service by imputing that the IFS is merely seeking to protect its feudal privileges, no question of principle is involved, even suggesting that the IFS was placing its parochial interest above the national interest. We have had a long history of Indians selling their own country’s interest and it is not surprising that this venerable tradition continues.

Unless India reacts strongly to US high-handedness when required we will neither have self-respect nor will we be respected by the international community as a country with an independent foreign policy.

Makes a sad reading... sounds like East India Company and Mir Jafars all over again... Who are all the "US-linked" editors? Looks like most of them. I find "The Hindu" to be the most deshdrohis, advertised as "India's National Newspaper" while in fact totally anti-national.

How should India go about demanding reduction of number of US embassy staff in India? Looks like most of their activities are subversive.

[member_28380]

http://www.telegraphindia.com:8080/1140 ... u0wiPmSzKc

BIG BROTHERLY POSTURING

Kanwal Sibal

The Devyani Khobragade affair that has rocked India and the United States of America’s relations so unexpectedly carries many lessons. It has highlighted the inherent difficulty in forging an equal relationship with the US. The US’s attitude towards other countries is conditioned by its status as the world’s pre-eminent power, its view of itself as the repository of the best political, economic and human values which it seeks to universalize, its urge to constantly judge others and rank countries in accordance with the degree to which they measure up to its values and its willingness to impose these by force if necessary, even if that entails terrible misery for others.

The US has escalated a minor wage dispute between an Indian diplomat and her India-based maid beyond all proportion in a stubborn bid to apply its labour laws to domestic staff of foreign diplomats as if they are immigrants and employed from the local labour pool. If US society was perfect, without any exploitation, injustice and discrimination, if its institutions protected unfailingly the dignity and human rights of every individual, if its police forces were exemplary in their conduct, then the obstinate efforts to ensure that a foreign diplomat conformed to its pristine standards might make some sense. The Devyani episode shows that at the highest level US decision-makers are willing to jeopardize an important relationship on a narrow point of law applied arbitrarily. India could also face unpredictable US behaviour tomorrow on some other issue on which the Americans mulishly uphold some principle of their own making. This makes the reliability of the US as a partner uncertain. If the US political class can allow, as we have seen, a significant relationship to be gratuitously buffeted by secondary issues, it would be unwise to become over-dependent on it. We should keep enough distance from the US so that our ability to resist its encroachment on our rights and sovereignty is not lost.

American rhetoric about India should be discounted. Grandiloquent language comes easily to the Americans, and flattering phrases from the world’s foremost power can be beguiling. How can the US talk of helping India become a great power — a patronizing attitude in the first place — if it is ready to humiliate India on a minor wage issue? The Devyani affair and the decision to evacuate Indian nationals was not simply a mis-step by some overzealous individuals, the US ambassador in India and the state department were involved in it over months. The inability of the secretary of state and the White House to appreciate properly the consequences of US action on India-US relations and the unwillingness to intervene in a timely manner points to serious deficiencies in political monitoring of the processes of decision-making in the state and justice departments.

For all the inflated talk of India and the US being the world’s largest and oldest democracies and sharing the same values, the reality is that the US internally scoffs at the institutions of democracy in India, as the egregious act of evacuating Indian citizens from the purview of Indian courts shows. Indians have been the largest recipient of US visas that are associated with severe sex or labour trafficking. That our authorities have not monitored such an assault on our legal system is inexcusable. With the pervasive view that the US and India were now genuine strategic partners, our inclination has been not to disturb the relationship and even overlook objectionable US behaviour. In spite of Edward Snowden’s revelations about India being the fifth largest victim of US snooping, we have preferred to bury the issue. Time has now come to clamp down hard on the US embassy by warning it in writing that such evacuation amounts to interference in India’s internal affairs and, if continued, will expose their diplomats to legal action. The credentials of the expelled US diplomat’s replacement should be scrutinized carefully and the visa granted on the specific condition that he will not be involved in such activities.

Beyond this, we should move towards reducing the size of the US missions in India. Our most important relationship in many ways is with the US, but we have a small embassy there. India is by no means the most important country for the US but it has one of its largest embassies here — 10 times the size of our embassy in Washington. One clear explanation for the discrepancy in size is that we do not monitor US internal affairs on a scale that the US does or try to penetrate its political and administrative structures. We should ease out surplus US diplomats dealing with human rights and trafficking issues as well as those handling communications to prevent snooping. Besides imposing security burdens on us, an over-staffed embassy gives the US means to more easily penetrate our system, influence and monitor decision-making, create lobbies that will advocate the US viewpoint even against our national interest and shield the US from retaliatory action for unacceptable conduct. The cover of intensive friendly engagement and numerous dialogues gives the US key platforms to push their agenda; we should not increase our vulnerability unwittingly.

The commentary in the mainstream US press on the Devyani affair carries a lesson for us too. It has been parochial, full of condescension, narrow political thinking and cultural insensitivity. Editorials have poured scorn on Indian reactions as being petty, unbecoming of a democracy and a would-be great power. If India had dutifully accepted the affront as well-deserved and applauded the application of US humane laws to one of our erring diplomats, we would have, of course, proven our democratic and potential big power credentials. Our reflexes have been compared to those of Russia and China. India, it seems, cannot aspire to great power status outside US control of its world-view. The US press has also scoffed at the addiction of our middle class to domestic servants, its maltreatment of the underclasses — a harking back to attitudes before the nuclear deal, India’s growth story and its success in information technology. If tomorrow there are substantive policy differences with the US, the American press will unleash itself against us, distorting our case with the American public.

The US manipulation of our own media puts us at a double disadvantage. Its tactics in highlighting the removal of barricades around the US embassy as a vengeful act threatening the security of US diplomats — which is false — succeeded partially. In a bid to isolate the external affairs ministry, US-linked editors have launched tirades against the Indian Foreign Service by imputing that the IFS is merely seeking to protect its feudal privileges, no question of principle is involved, even suggesting that the IFS was placing its parochial interest above the national interest. We have had a long history of Indians selling their own country’s interest and it is not surprising that this venerable tradition continues.

Unless India reacts strongly to US high-handedness when required we will neither have self-respect nor will we be respected by the international community as a country with an independent foreign policy.

Makes a sad reading... sounds like East India Company and Mir Jafars all over again... Who are all the "US-linked" editors? Looks like most of them. I find "The Hindu" to be the most deshdrohis, advertised as "India's National Newspaper" while in fact totally anti-national.

How should India go about demanding reduction of number of US embassy staff in India? Looks like most of their activities are subversive.

[UlanBatori]

Surprising dynamic there. The Internet-based news portals have been MUCH better this time around. DNA India, New Indian Express, the (British!!)-linked Daily Mail ( doubt if this was because of their pro-Indian sentiment more than their anti-American sentiment).
And most amazing: the Telegraph from, all places, KOLKATTA! Home of Moni Basu, Sagarika Bose, all those other Basus etc following the fine tradition of Mir Jaffar. The two sharpest articles on this have come in The Telegraph, the second being this astonishing turnaround by Kapil Sibal, usually more MUTU than MUTUs.

I saw something in a headline about Moscow on this matter - but there was no content. Have you seen anything from the Russian press on this? I saw some headings in the Chinese and Taiwanese, but was not going to go there to see the gloating and sneering.
As I understand, the most sympathetic and supportive have been the Pakis.

Why reduce the number of Americans in Dilli? On the contrary, India needs to strengthen presence in America, as the new Tritiya Bhoolok Atishakti. Send many more "Official ChildCare and Culinary Specialists" as part of a Bureau of Diplomatic Security and Wellbeing. All full diplomatic credentials, total immunity. All dual-delegated to the Indian Mission to the UN. And have a couple of fast jets on 24-7 standby for rush "evacuations" like of Mr. Lady, the SeeAyyeh Agint who was rushed out of Panama after his conviction for kidnapping in Italy, and following arrest.

[Singha]

>> the second being this astonishing turnaround by Kapil Sibal, usually more MUTU than MUTUs.

sit its kanwal sibal, some other guy.

the real durbari kapil sibal is still very much what he is / is not.

[UlanBatori]

Oops!

[member_28380]

Surprising dynamic there. The Internet-based news portals have been MUCH better this time around. DNA India, New Indian Express, the (British!!)-linked Daily Mail ( doubt if this was because of their pro-Indian sentiment more than their anti-American sentiment).
And most amazing: the Telegraph from, all places, KOLKATTA! Home of Moni Basu, Sagarika Bose, all those other Basus etc following the fine tradition of Mir Jaffar. The two sharpest articles on this have come in The Telegraph, the second being this astonishing turnaround by Kapil Sibal, usually more MUTU than MUTUs.

I saw something in a headline about Moscow on this matter - but there was no content. Have you seen anything from the Russian press on this? I saw some headings in the Chinese and Taiwanese, but was not going to go there to see the gloating and sneering.
As I understand, the most sympathetic and supportive have been the Pakis.

Why reduce the number of Americans in Dilli? On the contrary, India needs to strengthen presence in America, as the new Tritiya Bhoolok Atishakti. Send many more "Official ChildCare and Culinary Specialists" as part of a Bureau of Diplomatic Security and Wellbeing. All full diplomatic credentials, total immunity. All dual-delegated to the Indian Mission to the UN. And have a couple of fast jets on 24-7 standby for rush "evacuations" like of Mr. Lady, the SeeAyyeh Agint who was rushed out of Panama after his conviction for kidnapping in Italy, and following arrest.

The Telegraph article is from Kanwal Sibal, not Kapil Sibal.

Make no mistake, the Khans and SD are mighty pissed off with the Indian reaction. It was supposed to be a quiet humiliation of India. Teaching Indians some lessons, civilizing them through heavy handed punishment, etc, etc.

The idea was to publicize casteism, slavery of India. Instead what has resulted are wide global publicity on dehumanizing police state in the US, duplicity and hypocrisy behind US feudal privileges in the international community.

How about practicing egalitarianism in the international community? Why Khans are superior caste with special privileges not available to Dalits like Injuns ?

A psychological barrier, US Big Bully Posture has been breached. Now other countries know how to deal with US in similar situation.

[UlanBatori]

Vijay, as you know, the problem is deeeep-rooted in India. I bet even ppl like Zeya and BO and Mrs BO and PB if not accompanied by the hordes in dark glasses, will find a very different reception in India from that which is automatically (and genuflectingly) accorded to Paco and the Mays. This problem is not getting better, in my opinion it has actually got worse than it was in the 1970s when IG, whatever ppl might say of her in other things, instilled in us a pride to be Free people who would do what was right - which we showed by standing up and toppling her Emergency. The Modern Generation has roared ahead in many respects, and make me very proud in many respects. But in this respect (mindless, spineless genuflexion and musharraf-osculation based on skin/hair color) they have become worse. I am most certainly not advocating any sort of hostility towards anyone, I am just saying that MUCH more introspection and education are needed in INDIA.

The 1996 CTBT dissing personified by Arundhati Ghose, and the 1998 nuke tests, and the resulting unification of Indian-**** sentiment, were very positive developments that saved India at a critical time. The amazing reaction of the diaspora to the GOI bond issue just steamrolled over the predictions of the Moni Basus ("Now my friends in Calcutta will not be able to buy Revlon Jeans and Levi's Lipstick") and the Strom Thurmonds ("The Indian govt has shot themselves in the foot, and probably in the head") and oversubscribed $4B of foreign exchange, and the "sanctions" Nazis just brushed off the tire-tracks from their backsides and meekly joined the flood of investment into India. The support during the Kargil war was absolutely fantastic: Public opinion in the world swung 180 degrees from a 99.9999% support for the Pakis, to "the CNN forum has only savage Indians left on it" whine from the Pakis within 2 months, and it was MOSTLY due to the teenagers on Internet forums (leading to the rise of BRF too). Not because of DCGIs or CGIs or inarticulate, incoherent IFS babus who let themselves be bullied by Pakis and racist bullies.

But THEN... with India rising, even shooting upwards, Indians decided to let Entropy take over... and now the nation seems to be in such a shape that there was more independent thinking in 1900 than there is now. The media are near-complete in their sell-out, even worse than the politicians and babus. This episode is the first where I have seen ANY spirit, in more than 9 years (which is why I am back on PeeAref...)

[member_28380]

The Golden Dictum of US, its operating principle is Might is Right.

I Am Always Right Since I Have the Money and Missiles.

MATA Nisha Biswal is in Sri Lanka kicking up dust on bringing on another resolution condemning human rights violation by Sri Lankan army.
The truth is LTTE deliberately used civilian shield to increase casualty. Even if you don't buy this argument, in a similar situation of one country to trying to maintain its territorial unity, atrocities/ genocide on a much much larger scale were unleashed in East Pakistan in 1971. The second largest genocide of the 20th century was carried out with US money, US military supplies and US diplomatic and military support.

Sri Lankans should bring this up big time.

[UlanBatori]

I fully second any move to remind Americans and the world about the KissmyAssinger/TricyD1ck support for the genocide in East Bengal.

But Biswal again, I would caution against any such "MUTU" characterization. IA types in the administration, from what I have learned, do in fact help the true interests of India (which are in no way different from those of the USA per the constitutions if you take out the cynical stuff) quietly and very effectively. Even PB I am not really willing to characterize as anti-Indian in any way.

They will OF COURSE represent the USA to the best of their ability, but they do listen, and they do try hard, to find the best course. And they have to survive surrounded by Pakis, both native-born and assimilated into the US military and SD, and ABCPs.

ABCDs in my experience are in NO WAY racists or dhimmis, in fact they have done awesome amounts of good.

I remember for instance the case of the ABCD who was recruited into McDonnell-Douglas waaay back at the height of the Cold War and anti-Indian GOTUS attitudes, a defense company then run by true, red-blooded and red-necked, Cold War pro-Pakis. There was probably not a face in the Executive Suite of MDC that was any shade darker than a Minnesotan returning from a tanning booth. The story is that this kid looked them in the eye and asked them:

Before I agree to join your company I want to know if you are racists

causing a chain reaction akin to "Dad! Look! The Emperor's mijjile is showing!" That is typically the way it has been, these kids have grown up in schools where the textbooks say:

Hindus believe in monkey gods with tails. Look around your classroom: does anyone have a tail? Ask your Hindu classmate if she has a tail

or College Infirmaries where the "doctors" say:

I can't tell what is wrong with you because I can't tell if your skin is looking pale

And they come up in such systems, with whatever survival skills, and they excel. Please don't diss those who manage to come up into the public view in such environments.

What they need to see, MOST OF ALL, is Resident Indians behaving as the citizens of the proud civilization and free nation that they are, not as the snivelling dhimmis that we see all the time.

DK is one solid exception to the above, hence the respect and sympathy that she has earned. At least from me.

[Rajiv Lather]

Kissinger is on a visit to Pakistan. Yahya Khan is the president/dictator.

Pakistanis need more money, more aid, more weapons to kill the poor East Pakistanis. So they do some research on what Kissinger likes - they find he seems to like women with big assets. Yahya Khan calls on his mistress General Rani and seeks some top maal.

Scene shifts to the dinner/dance/drinking. The maal is dancing topless; Kissinger watching/drooling. Yahya Khan leans over and whispers into his ear, "she has incredible control - she can, while dancing, rotate one clockwise and the other anticlockwise; simultaneously. Kissinger's mouth hangs open wider - and the dancer does all that and more.

The said dancer spends the night in Kissinger's suite and Pakistan get all the arms and help for conducting a most spectacular genocide.

True Story.

[A_Gupta]

Pakistan's former Ambassador to the US, Hussain Haqqani has written a truly useful book: "Pakistan, the United States and an Epic History of Misunderstanding : Magnificent Delusions". An excerpt from page 277 (emphasis added):

The Americans were unaware of {head of the ISI, General Hamid} Gul's ideological predilections and fantasies. A Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) profile described Gul as "a powerful mediator" who had organized "the unruly Afghan Alliance Leaders into a viable institution". He was characterized as "a sincere and caring individual who is attempting to do what is best for the Afghan Alliance as well as for Pakistan". In what turned out to be a massive miscalculation, the DIA believed that Gul was "a strong supporter of Pakistan's ties to the US; is generally friendly towards the U.S and the West and very comfortable with foreigners." The US intelligence community thought that Gul did not "have any particular political contacts of any significance within Pakistan". They were wrong on all counts.

The significance of Haqqani's work is that this "wrong on all counts" is not an isolated instance. It occupies most of the 300+ pages and 65+ years of US-Pakistan history that Haqqani narrates. It is not as though there were not Americans who saw and spoke more clearly and accurately - Haqqani mentions them as well - but for the most part, these voices went unheeded. Such a collection of misjudgements over six decades points to a entrenched culture in the US foreign policy establishment that has propagated itself across Republican and Democratic administrations, and across generations.

Another good thing about Haqqani's book is that he is a Pakistani - this very criticism coming from Indians would automatically be discounted as being biased. The persistence of American misjudgements with respect to Pakistan would almost be funny until you remember the huge cost in lives - American, Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Afghan - that have resulted from these.

I hope Indian-Americans on this thread realize that US State Department personnel having names like "Huma Abedin" or "Uzra Zeya" instead of the typical WASP male does not mean that the basic mental make-up has changed - these people could have risen only by conforming to this remarkably entrenched culture that has never been held accountable for its failures. The State Department is a conservative bureaucracy, the US non-government foreign policy establishment has deep ideological commitments that preclude change; these are not Silicon Valley type environments where disruptive innovation is welcome.

I think the "Positive News about the US" thread has helped in shaking loose some of the assumptions Indian Americans automatically have about the awesomeness of the US policy-makers. If not, read Haqqani's book, it may help.

[saip]

When I submitted DS160 to VO, I signed on a declaration that nobody assisted me on the preparation of the form, and I personally am responsible for any false information. Hope that is the same format submitted by SR to VO.

But in this case DK filled the form and put her name as the one who completed the form. Still SR signed the form and took it to the Embassy along with the employment contract and obviously the diplomatic note. At that point no offense was committed.

Just curious. Where were you when you filled the form? And what did you put in the column 'your income in local currency' ( not the figures but the currency symbol, if you used one)
TIA

[TKiran]

But in this case DK filled the form and put her name as the one who completed the form. Still SR signed the form and took it to the Embassy along with the employment contract and obviously the diplomatic note. At that point no offense was committed.

Just curious. Where were you when you filled the form? And what did you put in the column 'your income in local currency' ( not the figures but the currency symbol, if you used one)
TIA

It was in Chennai that time. Actually, the personal appearance was not necessary to obtain immigrant visas before 2002. When personal appearance became mandatory, I had to fill in DS160. In the salary column I filled in the exact amount the my Indian company promised me, which was more than $60, 000/- per annum. Also, I remember for my company revenues, I mentioned the income in millions of dollars as mentioned in the employment order, where they gave these details . In fact those figures were abailable in public domain as tje company was publicly yraded and was trading in NASDAQ as well. There were no issues in obtaining the Visa as I already travelled several times
ore also for various clients . There was no column asking the current salary in local currency. Actually we can download this form from I.ternet. It is standard form form for Immigrant as well as non-immigrant Visas

[Amber G.]

Another op-ed, this time by a U or W prof. in Seattle times - all this witch-hunting stunt has ..
Khobragade arrest created a U.S.-India rift

IN December, Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade was arrested in New York for human rights violations and visa fraud. The incident has touched off a crisis in U.S.-India relations.

One would hope that the Khobragade issue is now closed and both sides have moved on. Unfortunately they have not.

While it is tempting to blame this incident on the media, in reality it reflects deeper problems that bedevil U.S.-India relations. After all, a minor incident involving a midlevel diplomat developed into a major bilateral crisis.

Khobragade, India’s deputy consul general in New York, was accused of not paying minimum wage to her domestic help, Sangeeta Richard, and making a false declaration in the visa application that she filed to employ Richard.

One month later, she was indicted by a grand jury. Simultaneously, the United States granted her diplomatic immunity and allowed her to return to India.

In response, India expelled Wayne May, the head of the Diplomatic Security service in the U.S. Embassy in New Delhi, who played a key role in spiriting Richard’s family out of India. India also withdrew the nonreciprocal privileges granted to American diplomats in India.

The U.S. media portrayed the Khobragade case as an exploitative upper-class Indian preying on her helpless domestic help.

The Indian media emphasized that a woman diplomat was arrested, strip-searched and placed in a cell with hardened criminals, a violation of the Geneva Convention and norms of decency.

Yet blaming media alone would be shortsighted. The Khobragade affair reflects poorly on the managerial capacity and the political instincts of the U.S. State Department.

Soon after Khobragade’s arrest, the State Department took the position that it could not influence the U.S. legal process. While technically true, this was an inadequate response. Preet Bharara, the U.S. attorney prosecuting Khobragade’s case, is a political appointee who serves at the pleasure of the president.

Furthermore, it is flabbergasting that the State Department did not monitor the conduct of Wayne May and his wife Alicia Muller May, who made offensive statements on their Facebook page about Indian culture and the Hindu religion.

Wayne May made fun of vegetarianism, noting that his pet dog was better nourished than his vegetarian Indian gardener. Commenting on a well-publicized rape case in New Delhi, his wife noted, “It’s the vegetarians that are doing the raping, not the meat eaters — this place is just so bizarre.”

She made fun of cows. When her friends pointed out that she had insulted an Indian god, she proclaimed, “Not the first time, not the last.”

U.S. spy agencies apparently monitor electronic communication everywhere; how could they not monitor the comments made by their own embassy officials in New Delhi? Imagine the fallout had May been posted in the Middle East and he or his wife had made similar statements about Islam.

In the last three weeks, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry has tried to assuage India. But his statements neither offer any diagnosis as to why this ruckus happened nor spell out measures to ensure that this will not happen again.

Has May been disciplined? Is there a new operating procedure whereby the U.S. attorney consults the State Department and the White House before publicly passing harsh judgments on other countries?

The incident has implications for all areas of U.S.-India relations. Bilateral trade touched $86 billion in 2011. More than 100,000 Indian students study in the U.S. India is one of the top markets for Boeing. Indian Americans have achieved prominence in business, academics, medicine and politics.

Both countries need to move beyond sweet talk and adopt specific measures to ensure that such incidents are not repeated in the future.

Aseem Prakash is professor of political science and the Walker Family Professor for Arts and Sciences at the University of Washington in Seattle.

[arshyam]

Took it from another blog:
http://recklessmusings.blogspot.com/

but the numbers are here at FBI site:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr ... datadecpdf

Thanks!

[sivab]

Monday you get a ruling.

...

Anyone have a better idea of where things stand?

The next significant date is Feb 7, when the defense response to prosecution objection is due. See judges ruling in following link

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/att ... 1390354221

[TKiran]

Recently I read somewhere that DK and Frieda Pinto have same attractive features. May be PB has devoped some secret crush on DK and over did the arrest drama, deviating from original script. This sexist angle also could have been one of the reasons for deviation from original script. Little bit of Indian masala has been added to otherwise perfect hollywood original script. If DK looked like Shakeela, the script could have been followed as originally scripted. There is surprise for Khans for this reason as it was for the Injun reaction.

[member_20292]

What they need to see, MOST OF ALL, is Resident Indians behaving as the citizens of the proud civilization and free nation that they are, not as the snivelling dhimmis that we see all the time.

DK is one solid exception to the above, hence the respect and sympathy that she has earned. At least from me.

Hear hear!

Today I was arguing with a NRI family member residing in Brish1tain . She was going on about how there are some reports that; India is going down the dumps, that the "M's" [ the religion which must not be named] have said in Pakhanistan that they are now free from fighting the Amrus and will come visit us in Kashmere.

I said, horse-pottee. India is on a good path and carrying on like a good democracy would. It self-corrects, unlike some East Asian hot pot loving nations I know.


And yeah, DK "maal hai bhaiya, maal "

[UlanBatori]

This is what I mean: Resident Injuns are MWTW to an utterly disgusting degree. Esp. the "ejjukated" class. I think the farmers and the old folks and the kids in the rural areas are far, far better than the city-dwellers in this respect, as well as in the dhimmi respect. Those who have no self-respect or substance are the ones who seek to paint themselves as superior to others. Whether in Bilayat, Amreeka or Bharat. And here the ABCDs have the RNIs beat by miles and miles: they grow up in multicultural, diverse daycare centers from Age 1, not being spoonfed sitting on the rumps of nannies. Their social negotiating skills are utterly scary.

So why have they not come out strongly in this DK case? Because the facts have not been clearly explained in the social media. Whose fault is that? RNIs'. There were a couple of demonstrations outside the US Embassy for a day or so, but even those were utterly mild as in Please Please Uncle Sam, not the sort of demonstrations that even the commie-Pakis are used to conducting in Noo Yoik:

Brick by brick, wall by wall,
US Imperialism will fall!

If there were continuing, visible local interest in India, there would be questions asked by COTUS. Right now, none. If Indians don't care how their diplomats are treated, why should Americans, as TSJ so rightly asks?

[Vayutuvan]

I remember reading somewhere (come to think of it on BRF itself )that Kanwal Sibal is brother of Kapil Sibal and Wikipedia entry does corroborate -

From Wikipedia entry on Kapil Sibal

His brother is Kanwal Sibal who is the former Foreign Secretary of India.

[Shreeman]

Monday you get a ruling.

...

Anyone have a better idea of where things stand?

The next significant date is Feb 7, when the defense response to prosecution objection is due. See judges ruling in following link

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/att ... 1390354221

Then I misread something, Feb 7 is also not a big date and even a week is not a long time. Agreeing to two days for a response is weird when prosecution has two weeks. Two serious questions,

a. who is driving this train and where?
b. what is with the speed? it will keep it in the news cycle, so maybe something defense is pushing for/wants. Oral arguments, really? How would that help?

I dont buy UBs central park muuggers argument. how many total birds with one "stone"? just what the heck is really going on here?

PS: all the emotional business is great, but we are stiill low on the procedural fact count. Another time, I would it for curiosity alone. Cant, so I am not IT.

[saip]

But in this case DK filled the form and put her name as the one who completed the form. Still SR signed the form and took it to the Embassy along with the employment contract and obviously the diplomatic note. At that point no offense was committed.

Just curious. Where were you when you filled the form? And what did you put in the column 'your income in local currency' ( not the figures but the currency symbol, if you used one)
TIA

It was in Chennai that time. Actually, the personal appearance was not necessary to obtain immigrant visas before 2002. When personal appearance became mandatory, I had to fill in DS160. In the salary column I filled in the exact amount the my Indian company promised me, which was more than $60, 000/- per annum. Also, I remember for my company revenues, I mentioned the income in millions of dollars as mentioned in the employment order, where they gave these details . In fact those figures were abailable in public domain as tje company was publicly yraded and was trading in NASDAQ as well. There were no issues in obtaining the Visa as I already travelled several times
ore also for various clients . There was no column asking the current salary in local currency. Actually we can download this form from I.ternet. It is standard form form for Immigrant as well as non-immigrant Visas

Check this form, page 3. There was a question 'Month Salary in Local Currency: '
The figure $4500 is quoted by both sides one alleging it is the 'promised' salary to SR and other claiming it is the salary of DK. But if it is local currency it would be rupees and would be SR's income in India, which is reasonable. But because DK was filling the form she could have misread the form and entered $4500 which happens to be her salary.

Link

[member_28434]

[quote="Shreeman"][quote="sivab"][quote="Shreeman"]

Agreeing to two days for a response is weird when prosecution has two weeks. Two serious questions,

a. who is driving this train and where?
b. what is with the speed?

It seems to me to be quite clear that there is something much bigger and more co-ordinated going on than the "Central Park mugger" model suggests.

The anti-trafficking and modern slavery campaign is being accompanied by rape hysteria:

http://mindbodypolitic.com/2014/02/02/t ... y-country/
http://mindbodypolitic.com/2014/01/31/u ... s-rapists/

Massive espionage, attacks on the electricity grid, "snoop" ships, murders of nuclear scientists, trumped up prosecutions of key figures of Indian origin in business, in the media,
Headley,..what more evidence do you want?

Leaders are clearly bought and paid for.

The Khobragade incident was an intended "teaching moment" in a multi-year covert war, painting India as a failed state.

The logic of that, coupled with a possible break in the US-Pak relationship (hinted at above in the ex=Pak ambassador's book suggesting a US-Pak divorce), is that the US is moving from Afghanistan to Kashmir as its central focus in the area.

DK herself was posted in Pakistan. The SD are all closet Arabists.

Terrorist bases targeting Kashmir have not been struck by drones. Kashmiri secession is in the air.
India is no longer an ally or treated as one.
Conclusion?

Look for more instability, demonization,lawsuits, and incitement of war between India and neighbors.
It would be smart to use this incident to pull back from the US embrace.
Strict reciprocity and build other bilateral ties. Punitive response to the DK episode.

The groveling of the GOI is not a good indicator, in that regard, and it is why PB is acting like this.

There are obvious quislings in charge. Perhaps worse. I wonder sometimes if the DK incident didn't involve staging from the Indian side as well. The Ukraine color revolution shows that the Ukraine govt, not just the opposition, are in bed with the great Khan.

Public opinion must be educated, which requires much more effort beyond chatting on forums. Articles, letters, petitions, demonstrations, and, most of all solidarity and assertiveness, not self-flagellation.

[Prem]

Should not SR be put on stand and cross examined ?

[saip]

She would be if this goes to trial

[svinayak]

..

[Sanjay]

Would ask to calm down. Once a matter enters the judicial system, it is genuinely difficult to interfere.

A directive to drop the case cannot come from on high as the Prosecutor's office has too much power in the US.

India got DK back. Long and short. Better could not be done.

Be careful about wishing for a trial. All sorts of strange things can happen in US Courts - frankly in any Court.

Of course DK's arrest had SD, BO and JK approval.

To what end is more bizarre.

Teaching DK a "lesson" served no purpose other than to alert elements in India to US duplicity.

PB would make those statements no matter what. He is an obnoxious self-righteous twerp as are his cohorts.

The question needs to move on - does India need the US ?

I am unconvinced of that.

India's problem is that it has not tapped its own potential thanks to successive years of mismanagement.

We are right back to 1971 in terms of relations. The strange thing is, the US is not a winner in this at all.

[sivab]

...

Sanjay, what is your legal opinion on court papers. You can find them in following link

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1587636

Mike(jmm9) who seems to be a US based lawyer, posted this over at DFI

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/amer ... post851072

Dan Arshack has until 7 Feb to file a reply to the brief filed by PB's distaff staff; the USG brief left open a number of doors he can walk through. We'll soon see if he does.

Not sure by doors he means trap door or escape door.

[UlanBatori]

Of course DK's arrest had SD, BO and JK approval.
To what end is more bizarre.

That's the problem with that thesis. BO and JK are NOT going to get involved in nanny-gate/petty arrests, won't touch with 10-foot mijjile. Plausible deniability uber alles, if nothing else. Any underling whose actions in such things reaches the attention of BO/JK, is in for either a medal or a firing. Guess which in this case, with rotten eggs streaming down the teflon coating of JK, and BO probably asking him what the *%^( is going on with his department, putting the whole Minimum Wage thing in jeopardy.

Nah! It HAS to be a lower-level rogue extortion racket gone bad. The question is whether GOI will let them get away with it and throw DK and those who signed off on the bail bond, under the bus. (70% probability based on GOI's record), or will GOI go on the offensive, cavity-search and "flash" the entire AES and US Embassy scams b4 the whole Duniya (2% probability), or make a total hash of it (28%)

Maybe time to start the GUESS BRF pool on this. Where is Krishna, and the rest of the Krikit Pool, I wonder..

OTOH, if COTUS asks a a few interesting questions b4 Feb.7, the whole scam will come crashing down as the rats race for the water. There will be only 2 or 3 State's Evidence slots, everyone else is heading for jail.

[UlanBatori]

Public opinion must be educated, which requires much more effort beyond chatting on forums. Articles, letters, petitions, demonstrations, and, most of all solidarity and assertiveness, not self-flagellation.

And??? Petition is easy to generate, but any prospect of getting 50,000 signatures? Are there that many non-404 ppl in India? Can u reach them via social media?

[Amber G.]

^^^ There seem to be some confusion among some people.. sorry if I repeat something which many already know (and have been posted here or in news stories)

Practically speaking, there is really no "trial" in the near future. A trial comes after arraignment (formal reading of the charges), and plea (if the defendant pleads guilty or not - or no contest) etc..

As PB himself has said to the court, there will be none of these things as DK's full immunity prevents him for going ahead to even arrange for an arraignment..., at least not until DK comes back to US without an immunity . Remember, even with all his stunts, he could not even stop DK from leaving US. (He was able to stop, say the Times square bomber, and in fact that guy was arrested just before he was leaving for Pakistan). The Judge disagreed with him, and let DK have her passport back, allow her to leave the US, SD guys did not even inform PB when DK was leaving..(PB did make a fool of himself when he falsely reported to the court that DK has left US while DK was still in the US)..

So all this tamasa, (Feb 7th etc) is really not that important as far as DK's safety or harm done to her reputation. We just want to see if the Judge entertain the DK's lawyer's motion to dismiss the case completely (in that case there is no future threat to DK.. and her false arrest case, which is no doubt is going to come, becomes even stronger) .. let PB twist himself in a knot.. Remember all those SD's memo's about their "understanding" of immunity is going to be used by others too ( like GOI's understanding of reciprocal immunity etc..)

Any way some cut and paste from earlier report.. (Around Jan 9-10)
>>>

...But the indictment does not amount to much as Khobragade cannot be tried in a U.S. court because she has been granted full diplomatic immunity by the State Department, following a full-blown diplomatic challenge by India against the United States.

In his letter to U.S. District Judge Shira A. Scheindlin of the Southern District of New York, Bharara said the grand jury indicted Khobragade on two counts with visa fraud and making false statements.......

However, now according to Bharara there will not be any need for the Jan. 13 arraignment. “We understand that the defendant was very recently accorded diplomatic immunity status and that she departed the United States today.” The charges will remain pending until such time as Khobragade can be brought to court to face them either through a waiver of the diplomatic immunity or if she comes to the U.S. in a non-immune status, {it is not going to happen any time soon} the letter added.

I hope this helps.

[UlanBatori]

AmberG, question: why does DK have to come to the US (and thereby risk arrest) for the trial to occur? Seems like many trials proceed in absentia (like the one involving the prior Indian diplomat who was extorted). So here it appears that this route is also closed to PB because the diplomat left on immunity, vs. just exiting the country. Seems a total mess. So the trial can occur only IF DK comes to the US WITHOUT IMMUNITY (why/how would she do that? How is the US going to grant her a visa to come, given that there is a charge of falsifying a visa application against her?) This is classic Catch-22. PB is in what is known as 3-Sanku Swargam in Mongolian.

The other thing is, where are SR and the DUI and kids? Surely they are not in any Witless Protection Program, who are they hiding from? Time for some enterprising reporter to get a scoop for National Enquirer??