India-US Strategic News and Discussion

member_28434 · Post by **member_28434** » 03 Feb 2014 06:32

And??? Petition is easy to generate, but any prospect of getting 50,000 signatures? Are there that many non-404 ppl in India? Can u reach them via social media?

I'd suggest sending a statement/petition with main points in DK's defense, all relevant info and arguments, to Indian lobby in DC. They were strongly pro DK. Ask them to circulate and build signatures.

Also, blogs like mediacrooks, greatgameIndia, Shadow Warrior, Great Bong, Atanu Dey, etc. might be able to reach out. Mainstream Indian blogs, Sepia Mutiny, might get interested with additional facts, but so far they're very anti-DK.

Enlist aid of a couple of editors in India, couple of professors in the US.
Review the pro-DK articles and just cc authors.
Correct factual record at Wikipedia.
Try to get an oped into a smaller paper in the US at least.
Create blog buzz between supporting blogs by commenting, reposting, exchanging links.
UK sites/writers seem more open.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Feb 2014 06:34

Indian lobby in DC. They were strongly pro DK.

Who is that? I haven't seen anything pro DK come out of DupliCity, esp from desi-Americans.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Feb 2014 06:37

Amber G. wrote:^^^ There seem to be some confusion ...

This makes sense. Except for the relatively quick back and forth. May be just a defense push.

How do you rate the chances oif dismissal?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Feb 2014 07:10

UlanBatori wrote: That's the problem with that thesis. BO and JK are NOT going to get involved in nanny-gate/petty arrests, won't touch with 10-foot mijjile. Plausible deniability uber alles, if nothing else.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/ ... .htm#INDIA

QUESTION: Did Secretary Kerry personally sign off on the arrest?

MS. HARF: I don’t think that’s how it works. I’m happy to check. Sign off officially or – I don’t even – I mean, in any way --

QUESTION: Was he aware that the arrest was going to take place?

MS. HARF: He was certainly aware, yes, absolutely. He’s been kept up to speed on this case. I can double-check on exactly how it works.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Feb 2014 07:13

Wow! Thanks. Incredible. And then he calls India and says... what? What a dork!

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Feb 2014 07:17

Amber G. wrote:SD guys did not even inform PB when DK was leaving..

Daniel Arschack is on the record otherwise. Between SD and MEA, the understanding was she was to leave in AI flight that afternoon. DK was on the way to airport when DA told her to go back. She went back heeding to his words. The AI flight was delayed waiting for her. I will post link if I can locate that.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Feb 2014 07:22

^^^ Here is Daniel Arschack on record

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

On Thursday, Mr. Arshack said, he got a call from Ms. Khobragade, who was about to be driven to the airport for a 2:25 p.m. flight. He called the State Department, saying he would not allow her to leave without the court’s permission. He says neither he nor his client, who was free on bond, wanted it to appear that she was fleeing the country, when in fact she was leaving because she was obligated to.

Mr. Arshack said he told Ms. Khobragade to stay inside her vehicle when it got to the airport. He said he then called two investigators, who had been working for him on the case, and had them drive to the mission and follow her on the way to the airport.

If Indian officials tried to compel her to leave the vehicle, Mr. Arshack recalled telling his investigators, they should take her to the Manhattan federal courthouse, where he was heading.

MEA was upset because of this. There was an article on that. I will see if I can locate that.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Feb 2014 07:30

^^^ Ok found that one too. Take this with some salt, it is from IE which bats for you know who.

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... e-track-4/

Devyani Khobragade may be celebrated by some as a heroine in India, but the Ministry of External Affairs is reportedly unhappy with the diplomat for her obstreperous behaviour just before leaving the US. As soon as Khobragade got the G-1 visa, she was asked to fly out of New York, but she was most reluctant to do so. To the surprise of MEA officials, she did not want to take her daughters aged seven and four too with her. Although Khobragde was driven to the airport, she refused to board the flight. The Air-India flight to India was consequently delayed. Khobragade returned home from the airport hoping that her lawyer would be able to get her a temporary reprieve to stay on with her family. It was only after she was told sternly that she had no option but to leave America and that national interest outweighed her personal wishes that she finally left by a United Airways flight.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Feb 2014 07:34

That MEA folks who were upset could have been working at cross purposes and not fully aware of US laws. Had DK left without the court's assent she would have played right into PB and SD's playbook

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 03 Feb 2014 07:36

sivab wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: That's the problem with that thesis. BO and JK are NOT going to get involved in nanny-gate/petty arrests, won't touch with 10-foot mijjile. Plausible deniability uber alles, if nothing else.
MS. HARF: He was certainly aware, yes, absolutely. He’s been kept up to speed on this case. I can double-check on exactly how it works.

[/quote]

HARF HARF

Harf is a spinmeister. Or is it spinmistress

That's why she has that job.

Read this statement (which she did NOT make): Yes Secretary Kerry was certainly aware of the pending arrest.

Now read her actual statements (1) He was certainly aware, absolutely. - there is wiggle room here, since the sentence is incomplete (2) He's been kept up to speed on this case. You see the second statement immediately following the first one further makes the validity of the first statement even more doubtful and gives even more wiggle room.

It is extremely extremely unlikely BO was aware. There is only a small chance JK was aware, if he did, it was probably presented to him as a huge humanitarian service of SD and was okayed.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 03 Feb 2014 07:43

There would be enough wriggle room available to anybody motivated to get out of the sticky situation. Rest assured.
However, the damage to credibility will be already done. Not that it would matter to them.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 03 Feb 2014 07:45

Sanjay wrote:
The question needs to move on - does India need the US ?

I am unconvinced of that.

The following principles should guide India IMHO
1) US is not a friend of India
2)US is not an ally of India
3) US is not an enemy of India

(1) and (2) do not mean US is an enemy of India.
Since US remains the most powerful country, India cannot do anything self-injurious. The retaliation to DK arrest was legitimate and appropriate. No delusions on "world's largest democracies" "natural allies" etc.

Being aware of #1 is very important, keeping this in mind will help India avoid sense of being backstabbed.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Feb 2014 07:47

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 789835.cms

The State Department's legalistic position, enabling what some Indian interlocutors see as Bharara's provocative language (which in effect accused the Government of India of ''concocting'' immunity for Khobragade), when New Delhi insists she had immunity all along, has caused much heartburn in diplomatic circles with talk of blowback.

While some mandarins cautioned that one should not conflate strategic ties with day-to-day bureaucratic and legal battles, others suggested that it was inevitable that the spat on the law-and-order side would spill over to the strategic turf.

Even former US diplomats who have served previously in India are surprised that the political wing in the State Department has allowed legal and security personnel to call the shots. One former US diplomat said it was inconceivable that this could have happened without the sanction of the highest level at the State Department (Secretary of State John Kerry) and the U.S ambassador to New Delhi (Nancy Powell).

MEA is still stuck in talk. They will be the ones to suffer consequences.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 03 Feb 2014 07:52

kenop wrote:There would be enough wriggle room available to anybody motivated to get out of the sticky situation. Rest assured.
However, the damage to credibility will be already done. Not that it would matter to them.

I agree about the loss of credibility.

Breach of trust is huge.

Imagine this meeting in the SD:
JK "dropping in" to say hi to Ms. Sujatha Singh and shaking hands: "Sky is the limit. India and US are natural allies"

Stepping outside the room: "You got the iron shackles and DNA swabs ready for their diplomat?"

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 03 Feb 2014 07:55

sivab wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 789835.cms

The State Department's legalistic position, enabling what some Indian interlocutors see as Bharara's provocative language (which in effect accused the Government of India of ''concocting'' immunity for Khobragade), when New Delhi insists she had immunity all along, has caused much heartburn in diplomatic circles with talk of blowback.

While some mandarins cautioned that one should not conflate strategic ties with day-to-day bureaucratic and legal battles, others suggested that it was inevitable that the spat on the law-and-order side would spill over to the strategic turf.

Even former US diplomats who have served previously in India are surprised that the political wing in the State Department has allowed legal and security personnel to call the shots. One former US diplomat said it was inconceivable that this could have happened without the sanction of the highest level at the State Department (Secretary of State John Kerry) and the U.S ambassador to New Delhi (Nancy Powell).
MEA is still stuck in talk. They will be the ones to suffer consequences.

It is true US certainly the ability to harass India...but then it is 50-50...they create and deal with all kinds of problems all over....we shouldn't assume they are seeking to make enemy of India..

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 Feb 2014 08:08

JK always did look like he has a rod up his **brain***. My take is that he is totally clueless and the SD is running with no leadership or direction, pakis and Central Park muggers and extortionists all doing their thing as they want.

I mean, think about it: Israel relations in total mess; Egypt policy is in the pakistan; Libya is becoming more anti-American every din; Al Qaeda is winning in Syria, Pakis are winning in Afghanistan, Eyeran situation in a mess, Italy in a mess (putting 23 US agints on trial for kidnapping); Panama arresting one of the agints, Italy asking for extradition; NoKo in a mess; PRC -Japan bissing contest in full swing with potential for WW3, Sudan imploding... BO visit to KSA coming up, and the SoS would have time or interest in Indian obscure diplo's spat with nanny? Some priority system! But now he's stepped properly in the poo.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 03 Feb 2014 09:15

The US SD is brain dead. If the US courts proceed further in this regard then it can be held that it too is brain dead. Notice here the difference between the Indian legal system and the US legal system.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 006283.ece

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 03 Feb 2014 09:37

so the Indian State once again proves itself a di**-less strongman. whatever that means. all talk. full bluster. no action. where is the retaliatory action on American assets (which includes diplomats and representatives of American Govt) in India? the Mays don't count. they were kicked out for their own malefide actions. they would have been kicked out regardless of DK issue. DK was humiliated. her family has been dragged through the mud. similar action against American diplomats is a necessity. or if that is too "calculated", then atleast expel half of the Consular staff in Delhi.

habal · Post by **habal** » 03 Feb 2014 09:58

It is during MMS regime that the diplomatic staff has ballooned to 400 BDS and 2000 other kinds of staff. These folks are sitting out there to subvert India's decision making process and compromise information security at various levels. It is during UPA watch that they have been allowed such leeway in subversion of our own country. there is no earthly reason why they should maintain such a huge army of diplomats in India, especially since they see India as very low on their scale of priorities. It is human, nay anglo-saxon nature that wherever there is an opening for creating mischief, they utilize it to maximum, without any dharmic considerations. Their pravritti itself is subverted, so I doubt even they can help what they do. Reciprocity should mean this should be cut down to 40 personnel, which means 2360 be given the ticket back home.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 03 Feb 2014 10:05

^^^ Abnormal rise in US diplomatic corps in India is very worrisome. I read somewhere that US embassy in India houses the second largest contingent of US diplomats anywhere in the world -- even more than China and Russia. These people are sitting here only for subversion and break-up of India. MMS as usual is too eager to be in good books of Americans to resist. There is something seriously wrong with this man.

vic · Post by **vic** » 03 Feb 2014 10:09

Two powerful nations can never be friends. The best they can hope for is NOT TO BE enemies. MMS is not only a Munna but also a coward. This spat would have ended in one day, if we had picked up CIA agent Wayne on some charge like being part of conspiracy not to pay taxes, striped, cavity searched and held him till they put DK on Board a flight. The problem is that Sonia and MMS have no problem with rape of DK or India, it is only IFS making some noise.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Feb 2014 10:20

^^^^ The tentacles of the Amureeka seem to have spread wider. Across all spectrum of our polity. Which possibly explains why our usual vociferous and noisy opposition, who take all opportunity to score brownie points, are quiet on this issue.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 03 Feb 2014 10:25

sivab wrote:
Amber G. wrote:SD guys did not even inform PB when DK was leaving..
Daniel Arschack is on the record otherwise. Between SD and MEA, the understanding was she was to leave in AI flight that afternoon. DK was on the way to airport when DA told her to go back. She went back heeding to his words. The AI flight was delayed waiting for her. I will post link if I can locate that.

My point was simply that PB did not know exactly when DK left. (SD guys, (or at lest a few SD guys and even a few ex NYPD guys) did know that she did not take the AI flight). In fact, there are reports that they took a lot of care so that PB & Co do not pull any stunts - One reason they avoided AI, was not to bring Air India in the middle -- DK's attorneys, did note the fact that US has been known to sent fighter jets and ask the air line to return etc and they did not want to take any chance - Even though India has issued DK a new passport, they waited till they got ok from the US Judge)

Not only India, but even some US guys were very surprised to see all this high handed mean game. (and completely unnecessary IMO) of US/PB ..

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 03 Feb 2014 10:33

^^^ Understood, thx.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 03 Feb 2014 10:36

VijayKM wrote: Imagine this meeting in the SD:
JK "dropping in" to say hi to Ms. Sujatha Singh and shaking hands: "Sky is the limit. India and US are natural allies"

Stepping outside the room: "You got the iron shackles and DNA swabs ready for their diplomat?"

Reminds of a Dana Carvey skit about Reagan and Iran-contra affair on SNL long time back.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 03 Feb 2014 10:41

UlanBatori wrote: Israel relations in total messo.

UB ji: you missed Syria and May be a few other restive countries who are flying under he radar.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 03 Feb 2014 11:27

sivab wrote:
UlanBatori wrote: That's the problem with that thesis. BO and JK are NOT going to get involved in nanny-gate/petty arrests, won't touch with 10-foot mijjile. Plausible deniability uber alles, if nothing else.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/ ... .htm#INDIA

QUESTION: Did Secretary Kerry personally sign off on the arrest?

MS. HARF: I don’t think that’s how it works. I’m happy to check. Sign off officially or – I don’t even – I mean, in any way --

QUESTION: Was he aware that the arrest was going to take place?

MS. HARF: He was certainly aware, yes, absolutely. He’s been kept up to speed on this case. I can double-check on exactly how it works.

Thanks. I have seen this before too.. (I think you have posted in brf also). Ms. Harf has made quite a few wild claims, (and I suppose that may be some what normal) so this statement in itself does not say how much JK (or higher ups) knew and when they knew ...

Nisha B's appointment was quite recent (about a week before DK's arrest - while the whole plot was many months in making) so she could not be that much in the loop.

There seemed to be quite a bit of paralysis at top of SD just after the arrest, and people made contradictory statements with different tones. (While JK was expressing "regret", PB went ahead and poured gasoline on the fire, while some went out of their way to justify how "right" the arrest was on the moral ground, others avoided answering direct questions).

It is reported that PB says, that he came to know about the case in detail only days before...(It seems that he believed that he will get the support of many liberals (including Indian-Americans) who will have a soft heart for the "poor maid".. and in general did not like the consulate people in NYC)

So I think it is possible that "higher ups" (US embassy up to NP certainly knew/were involved) may have not known the full details (or were lied to)..(it may not matter much, as they are still responsible for the damage)

OTOH, I (and a person who is more experienced with SD) am a bit shocked by the very harsh and hostile and junglee language PB used against GOI -- (eg GOI "concocting" immunity for DK - instead of just saying GOI considers DK had the immunity all along.)..Looking at the Kerr's memo,.it is surprising
that legal and security wing of SD is calling the shots...so this must have approval from higher-ups or higher-ups have lost the control and Mays are running loose..

Also strange was PB's comment in the document submitted to the judge, .. that DK now (because she is no longer in USA) does not have any immunity..

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 03 Feb 2014 11:37

SanjayC wrote:I read somewhere that US embassy in India houses the second largest contingent of US diplomats anywhere in the world -- even more than China and Russia.

This needs to be probed in more detail....GOI owes the information to the Indian public.

Hope it becomes an electoral issue in India over the next couple of months. That's the only way any kind of information or action would be forthcoming.

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 Feb 2014 11:50

Amber G. wrote:Also strange was PB's comment in the document submitted to the judge, .. that DK now (because she is no longer in USA) does not have any immunity..

I wonder if the expectation is that the Marines will land in Naya Dilli and grab DK to face "justice" PB istyle? I think this guy watches too many Hollywood thrillers.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Feb 2014 12:21

amit wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Also strange was PB's comment in the document submitted to the judge, .. that DK now (because she is no longer in USA) does not have any immunity..
I wonder if the expectation is that the Marines will land in Naya Dilli and grab DK to face "justice" PB istyle? I think this guy watches too many Hollywood thrillers.

The forum depth finally showed somewhere above. There is information in a few previous posts. The filings are opposing dismissal and not much more.

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 Feb 2014 12:31

^^^^
The post you are responding to is sarcasm, nothing much more. But that should have been obvious.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Feb 2014 12:35

amit wrote:^^^^
The post you are responding to is sarcasm, nothing much more. But that should have been obvious.

The sub-connversastion chain, not one email, but its late where i am. brain is asleep, it should be too.

Anand K · Post by **Anand K** » 03 Feb 2014 13:04

Channeling my inner Tin-Foil Hat Conjpirajy Theorist:-

Should be in the Positive News From USA thread but look at the good Samaritan involved; Human Trafficking in the USA

As some here have stated maybe Barack Obama Admin might be looking for a "big statement" in Human Rights vis-a-vis rest of the world. I guess Nukular Porfileration is so passe and this is the next big thing. So maybe this is a planted article?

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 03 Feb 2014 13:11

Amber G. wrote:the fact that US has been known to sent fighter jets and ask the air line to return etc

I wish it happened again with NO HARM to AI flight.... atleast it could have made the sleeping goi to take a note..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Feb 2014 14:06

vic wrote:Two powerful nations can never be friends. The best they can hope for is NOT TO BE enemies.

The mystery here is what prompted this episode in the first place. We had a dozen theories floated here. MKB's theory of a 'CIA recruitment gone right (or wrong or both)' seemed to be the closest to truth. However, we are still in the dark.

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 Feb 2014 14:27

SSridhar wrote:
vic wrote:Two powerful nations can never be friends. The best they can hope for is NOT TO BE enemies.
The mystery here is what prompted this episode in the first place. We had a dozen theories floated here. MKB's theory of a 'CIA recruitment gone right (or wrong or both)' seemed to be the closest to truth. However, we are still in the dark

Sridhar,

Initially I also felt MKB had gotten it right. But then I thought it out and feel that if that indeed was the case then would Amir Khan have allowed the whole thing to become such a circus with all the negative media publicity? I mean the easy way out could have been to declare DK PNG the moment the Richards family was in the US and send her packing. What did Khan gain by the strip and cavity search (unless you want to think that it would be willing to stoop to such a personal level to teach DK a lesson, forgetting the larger picture of international relations) and allowing the joker PB loose?

If you read Kishore Mahbubani and other commentators, the whole world is applauding India for giving ungli to Khan saab. Why even the Briturd papers are gleefully publishing the gory details.

I personally am coming around to the idea that this was planned as a trophy conviction and punishment in the backdrop of the new anti trafficking agenda (which seems to be now replacing proliferation) as the stick to use to beat up folks. On the face of it, it was perfect. A lady diplomat - who appeared rich and high caste - from India which has a history of doing nothing to any humiliation heaped on to it. She seemed such an easy target and to make the trafficking angle stick they even ex filtrated the family.

I bet if things didn't get out of control PB's indictment would have trafficking as the central meme, with some added masala of beatings and maybe sexual exploitation.

The whole thing blew up due to the fact that DK was not what she appeared to be in superficial eyes and being election year, the GoI did not have an wiggle room to bend over.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 03 Feb 2014 14:34

PB's Obsessive Compulsive disorder for DK has resulted in sensationalization of this case, otherwise scripted to perfection of a human trafficking case. PB is still obsessive, and compulsive.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 03 Feb 2014 14:46

sivab, I am reluctant to comment on Court papers without a thorough knowledge of US law and procedures. They are very different - and frankly nonsensical - compared to even the old British model (not to say the new one).

I need to be careful lest I mislead people on this.

The whole thing is sound and fury. The US has botched this thoroughly. If the arrest had been made without a strip-search etc and PB had shut his mouth, the odds are India would have left DK to her own devices.

I mean it takes a rare breed of stupidity for the SD to do this for no gain and lots of losses. DK is expendable for India. In the long run, is it the case that the US wants to annoy a potential customer for their goods (forget ally, but money talks).

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 03 Feb 2014 15:22

^^They made one mistake, and in the end. Idiots got vindictive and vicious. If it was just a normal diplomatic "incident", we would all have yawned and moved on....saying, damn, she probably was under-paying the woman, and "let the law take its course", etc... even the immunity thing is fudgeable.

The mistake was the public and unnecessary humiliation of a female representative of the country, who had apparently not done anything that dramatic. It was a payment dispute, which was already under legal process in India. The diplomat is only alleged to have broken US laws, whereas the American "evacuation" is more likely to fall under the "trafficking" rubric than anything else DK did. The maid was in the US legally, and she was getting paid, as all documentation attests, at least a very reasonable salary - by US or Indian standards. Under these circumstances, why the drama? Just a stupid mistake. Then apologise and move on. But no apology, and pushing harder, means there's a different game-plan. We don't know what it is, but the US will learn not to trifle with India. Both sides will feel the inconvenience. And remember, we did not start this shite. The record on that is very very clear.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 03 Feb 2014 15:44

JE Menon wrote:^^They made...

JEM,

Transparency is not exactly handy these days. This is what bothers most. Who knows what started the process?

We see one visible aspect, it may not be the first domino. In my humble and often wrong reading, routine incompetence gone wrong does not fit these events. PB (and PB's subordinates to PB, and so on) is expandable to the US as DK is to India. See recent NJ developments. Too many things going wrong in SD is a driver the other way. The world stage doesn't really need a new reality show. Too many easily expandable pawns to sacrifice and salvage. Not enough time for anyone to read through the record (almost at the rate congress new passes laws that apply on me). What gives with the breakneck speed? It is not routine.

They made the same mistake with APJAK, then a much beloved icon and still quite respectable, or those film stars. The only addition is the "in the cell with drug addicts bit". The "cell" bit has occurred before too for identical gender, almost impossible not to have transpired, just not with an individual claiming immunity. Create a poll of people who know someone treated badly (themselves, one degree of separation, heard reliable report, don't know anyone) and see.

Central park mugging obviously has been noted here to immediate past officers. No one was bothered then. In fact, it was more supporters of the events than defenders.

Not the humiliation that drove the media fury or forum reaction. Not sure what it is either, it should not be media driven in these ~300 pages. People claim to be experts and see through and contest those reports every single time.

Something is going on but asking that question only brings out wild conspiracy theories now. Having seen what is possible in all aspects recently, I am not sure how to discriminate. Not sure my place or time either.

2 naye paise.