India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 04 Feb 2014 04:11

UlanBatori wrote: Was he even born then? Old enough to read?

His speech at a rally was widely televised across India where he claimed that his knees were shaking etc. etc. etc. and the INC cadre requested high-command to restrain him from giving speeches at rallies. That is what I vaguely remember. More details in Modi vs. INC thread under burqua.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Feb 2014 04:15

Amber G. wrote:SSridhrji permit me to enquire - Did you ask the Consul what (s)he thought about DK's custodial rape in his/her country? If not why not? If you did, what was the consul's reply?

AmberG ji, let me answer. I could not be present at the inauguration function. Even if I had been, I would not have stood up and asked her that question because of the occasion. I did write to my Sabha about the incongruity and spoke to one of the office bearers. WikiLeaks showed how everybody from various walks of life was talking to US consuls in India about so many issues. The reasons are obvious.

member_28434 · Post by **member_28434** » 04 Feb 2014 04:48

Prabhu Dayal also connects the Sikhs for Justice cases and the Devyani K case on Dec 27 itself.

It is self-evident that the motivation is undermining sovereignty, laying the groundwork of redistribution of funds from GOI to preferred groups through lawsuits (this was how lawyer-activist-media-financial sector redistributed wealth from right-wing US businesses to left-wing post 1970s).

So those who still think this is Conspiracy Theory must believe chief Indian diplo's are also CT experts.

The recent arrest of Devyani Khobragade and its attendant circumstances have again brought into sharp focus the debate over whether the US is increasingly exercising jurisdiction in matters which pertain to India, and over which jurisdiction belongs to India alone.

A highly provocative and controversial aspect of such extra-territorial outreach is being done through the Alien Tort Statute (ATS) which reads: "The District Courts shall have original jurisdiction of any civil action by an alien for a tort only, committed in violation of the law of nations or a treaty of the United States."

In recent years, US courts have interpreted this statute to allow foreign citizens to seek remedies in US courts for human rights violations allegedly committed outside the US.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... 2sJ1JLoMFk

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Feb 2014 06:15

sivab wrote:^^^ Here is Daniel Arschack on record

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/13/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

On Thursday, Mr. Arshack said, he got a call from Ms. Khobragade, who was about to be driven to the airport for a 2:25 p.m. flight. He called the State Department, saying he would not allow her to leave without the court’s permission. He says neither he nor his client, who was free on bond, wanted it to appear that she was fleeing the country, when in fact she was leaving because she was obligated to.

Mr. Arshack said he told Ms. Khobragade to stay inside her vehicle when it got to the airport. He said he then called two investigators, who had been working for him on the case, and had them drive to the mission and follow her on the way to the airport.

If Indian officials tried to compel her to leave the vehicle, Mr. Arshack recalled telling his investigators, they should take her to the Manhattan federal courthouse, where he was heading.
MEA was upset because of this. There was an article on that. I will see if I can locate that.

Arshak was also protecting himself. He did not want the court to think he was complicit in his client "fleeing."

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Feb 2014 06:40

matrimc wrote:
Ravi Batra in The Economic Time wrote:He (Ravi Batra) contended that it is not for the judge to decide if Khobragade ought to have been arrested or charged. The two countries need to settle the issue to prevent further damage ....
What I had been saying all along. PB and the judge are going on a parallel track after USSD's memo of stating that the DCG does not have immunity. Getting into the nitty-gritty details of the indictment and the court process is all irrelevant and is only of interest to the specialist attorneys who understand such things.

Some of the Indian media reporting about this is quite sloppy it seems to me.

There is a difference between "did not have immunity" and "doesnot have immunity." The latter is technically true as question of immunity to a person not present in US is moot.

If SD indeed said to the court that DK "didnot" have immunity, then whatexactly did they ask GOI to waive? It seems like SD is splitting hairs--DK had no immunity at the time of arrest, so nothing wrong was done in cavity searching. But, according to them. , she had immunity at the time the matter came to trial, so it was ok for her to be recalled to Delhi.

Is this a tenable line of reasoning, or are the SD people being too clever by half?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Feb 2014 06:54

Amber G. wrote:
Have u considered the possibility that the SD legal dept may be populated by former City of Atlanta / State of GA Emergency Preparedness Experts?
I am sure it is just a coincidence but they tell me that abbba-jaan of the undersecretary of democracy (and patron of DUI's abba-jaan) seem to have made this great city his home at one time, when he immigrated from Pakistan...

Amber G , do you have concrete basis for the info that UZ belongs to glorious paki bihari community which served with such distinction in the '71 war to purify E. Pakistan?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 06:59

Let us help her to think over the few things..(Let us pretend we are the judge).. add points if you see them fit. (I am putting some thoughts of my own and what I have heard read from others)
PB's arguments and supporting SD' memo talk a lot about consular immunity (and acts committed in official duties etc..) so..
- Was DK's role in assisting SR in putting together the visa application documents (assuming DK prepared all of them) within the scope of her official authority as a consular officer ? .
(Note that DK' lawyer does not argue consular official acts at all, He argues only - DK's status as a temporary and then as a permanent member of India's UN mission.) PB devotes a couple of pages to it, but it does not addresses - consular officer's official role in assisting her fellow citizens in passport and visa matters.
2. Was the paperwork correctly done re: DK's status as a temporary member of India's UN mission and for how long was that status accorded ?

AmberG: This was the point of my story about the Korean grad student of many saal pehle, and the wise judge of Ulan Bator. By the Bray of PiBs, that poor guy would be still doing time for credit card fraud, prior to being deported for a felony conviction. I mean, look at the evidence: he took someone else's card home with him (and the original owner reported it missing/stolen), then came back a week later and bought gas, then used the "stolen" card to pay for that. Caught red-handed. Nailed, far worse than some confusing statements on a form and some IP address as evidence. But that is not what HerOnner saw. She looked past the cr*p and saw an innocent mixup.

IMO, an experienced judge will look at the whole thing, and not be blinded by the Braying of PiBs, or by the "concoctions" of the defendants. She will sit back, chew the cud, and say what any sensible person would say:

Even if we get past the issues of immunity etc., there is no federal crime committed, no intention shown to defraud, no prima facie case. Quit wasting my golf and siesta time. Phooooeeey!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 07:02

From unknown source:

In a harsh retaliatory step against the US for the treatment of DK, the Government Of India ordered placement of a big sign outside the US Embassy that says:
Honk if u luv cricket

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 04 Feb 2014 07:05

Krittika wrote:Prabhu Dayal also connects the Sikhs for Justice cases and the Devyani K case on Dec 27 itself.

It is self-evident that the motivation is undermining sovereignty, laying the groundwork of redistribution of funds from GOI to preferred groups through lawsuits (this was how lawyer-activist-media-financial sector redistributed wealth from right-wing US businesses to left-wing post 1970s).

So those who still think this is Conspiracy Theory must believe chief Indian diplo's are also CT experts.

The recent arrest of Devyani Khobragade and its attendant circumstances have again brought into sharp focus the debate over whether the US is increasingly exercising jurisdiction in matters which pertain to India, and over which jurisdiction belongs to India alone.

A highly provocative and controversial aspect of such extra-territorial outreach is being done through the Alien Tort Statute (ATS) which reads: "The District Courts shall have original jurisdiction of any civil action by an alien for a tort only, committed in violation of the law of nations or a treaty of the United States."

In recent years, US courts have interpreted this statute to allow foreign citizens to seek remedies in US courts for human rights violations allegedly committed outside the US.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... 2sJ1JLoMFk

Or is it due to the fact that, as Afghan President Hamid Karzai hinted in a recent interview with eminent journalist Saurabh Shukla, the US tends to act as a big bully?

"Tends" to act? this reminds me of another blog where I read the evacuation of SR's family "verges"on contempt.

It is not possible to show more contempt for India,its judiciary, government and civil society.

PD: "Could a court in India or some other country issue summons to Colin Powell for misleading the world in regard to weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and thus causing massive human rights violations?

Can suits be filed in courts of other countries regarding human rights violations by US authorities in Guantanamo Bay?

The US would be completely dismissive of anything of this sort."

Can any one see any moral or legal basis for this position?other than being display of wanton abuse of power by an outright Mega Bully.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 07:24

Recently had to pass thru Ahlana jawjuh after their finely-managed Weather Event. Picked up the great Khabar, "Passport to the Indian-American Community".
Editorial by Parthiv Parekh. Page 10, February rag

..portraying Richards as the guilty party seems important to a sundry set of people, politicians, and pundits who fancy themselves as patriotic Indians with an axe to grind against the US for arresting and mistreating an "innocent" diplomat.

Tut-tut, AmberG, I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED at all you jingos.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 04 Feb 2014 07:30

Uzra Zeya, could be the key player behind US again supporting fundamentalists in BD.

The annual SD report on "Human Rights" was released by her last year...

Apparently China has started publishing annual HR reports on US:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2013- ... 430019.htm

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 04 Feb 2014 07:38

UlanBatori wrote:Recently had to pass thru Ahlana jawjuh after their finely-managed Weather Event. Picked up the great Khabar, "Passport to the Indian-American Community".
Editorial by Parthiv Parekh. Page 10, February rag

..portraying Richards as the guilty party seems important to a sundry set of people, politicians, and pundits who fancy themselves as patriotic Indians with an axe to grind against the US for arresting and mistreating an "innocent" diplomat.[/quote]

Tut-tut, AmberG, I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED

[/quote]

This has always been the case....that is why we were enslaved for a 1000 years...

We like to think the freedom struggle against the British was a mass struggle...there were some mass agitations, and there were public outbursts of support. But the truth is a tiny minority of idealists sacrificed enormously while >90% were loyal servants of the British. That's why they needed less number of Brits to hold down a massive subcontinent than the numbers they needed to enslave a tiny island Ireland.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 07:43

Vijay:

"Bihari" is direct quote from speech by UZ at JNU or some such center of Indian nationalism. I saw it, which means it is 400% firm. ***Wrong speculation deleted**** Asst Secretary of State Uzra Zeya is from Bihar. Not sure if she was born there or in the US, but looks like family went from Bihar to North Carolina.

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Feb 2014 07:43

Amber G. wrote:
Have u considered the possibility that the SD legal dept may be populated by former City of Atlanta / State of GA Emergency Preparedness Experts?
I am sure it is just a coincidence but they tell me that abbba-jaan of the undersecretary of democracy (and patron of DUI's abba-jaan) seem to have made this great city his home at one time, when he immigrated from Pakistan...

take a look under obituary.
http://jewishfuneralcare.com/guestbook3 ... ralID=1865

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bettiah

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 04 Feb 2014 07:50

From the article in TOI posted by Amber ...

Riding on the State Department legal advisor's declaration, Bharara said the US government has ''unequivocally concluded'' that Devyani did not employ her domestic worker Sangeeta Richard in her capacity as Deputy Consul General and so does not enjoy immunity from prosecution for the ''crimes'' for which she was arrested in December.

PB has acknowledged that DK had consular immunity. From above statement, PB is contradicting himself. DK did employ SR in her capacity as DCG and not as a private citizen. Else, SR would not be on a GoI official passport. SR duties involved helping the DCG discharge her duties effectively; which may have included babysitting, housecleaning and food preparation or whatever may be so deemed by the DCG. So, should her consular immunity (by US re-intepretation standards) be sufficient? I would presume if there is an employee that is unhappy with his/her boss or work environment at the Indian consulate, (s)he can only take it up in the Indian court system and not the US court system. If you are on a official passport, you are working for the government and subjected to the rules of the government.

I can understand if she had hired a private local or foreign national residing in the US on a non-official passport or brought over someone in her private capacity on a regular blue passport that consular immunity may not cover.

The consulate does not come under the laws of the US. On a side note, can some one provide some examples of what kinds of crime are covered by immunity in the discharge of consular duties?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 08:03

OMG habal! My evil 6th kuffar coujin has talked to that person - back in 2001 when he went to have a chai-biscoot with See Enn Enn top mullahs. Interesting family tree - part Y, part I. Are we wrong about UZ??? Then again, was RG I not Y? The chai-biskoot was about blatant paki slant of See Enn Enn. RG was "above da fray" and supposedly arranged the opportunity to meet in exec suite of see enn enn.
How does one go through life totally hiding one's biases?

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Feb 2014 08:06

Yes UlanBatori ji, here is whole detailed history of family and father's narrative,

http://evilreporterchick.com/2013/03/25/rena/

Dr. Zeya (i.e. Dr Hasan Ismail Zeya) tells me how his own father had been a journalist in India but discouraged his son from ever becoming one. It was hard work and no money. But maybe that’s where Rena got her passion.

As a little girl, Rena would make her parents watch as she pretended to be a news anchor. She would hide under the table and appear from behind the tablecloth to the deliver the news.

Rena came to America on her sixth birthday. Dr. Zeya had wanted a better life for his family and moved to North Carolina from a remote part of the Indian state of Bihar. His family hailed from the place where Mahatma Gandhi launched his civil disobedience campaign in India — there’s a scene in the Oscar winning film that shows Gandhi arriving at that train station.

Dr. Zeya tells me he was happy to leave what he called the “most backward place in India.” For a variety of reasons.

He tells me he loved that in Chapel Hill, he could shower with hot water spewing from the faucets. And that he did not have to sweat through the entire summer like we did in India when the electricity went out and the fans stopped for hours. I felt connected with him — and to Rena — in a whole different way.

I never really spoke with Rena much about her early childhood in India. My connections to our homeland, of course, were much stronger since my parents chose to return there many years ago. But in a strange sort of way, it was comforting to know now that Rena had experienced life as I had there. She was only a year and half older than me.

My deepest connection to Rena was that when I first met her more than 20 years ago, she was the only other Indian woman I knew in mainstream journalism in the United States. Now, of course, there are many successful South Asian women practicing great journalism. But back then, there were few. Rena knew that and encouraged women like me to keep pushing forward.

As I speak with her father, I realize where she got a lot of her spunk, though he insists that it was she who inspired him.

Dr. Zeya tells me he never wanted to color his children’s thoughts about big things in life. Like religion. He wanted Rena to make up her own mind. It was exactly how my father had raised my brother and me. He never allowed organized religion to infiltrate our home. He wanted us to figure it out for ourselves.

Sunday afternoon, Dr. Zeya sat in the temple to hear Rabbi Steven Lebow tell the audience what Rena had said to him when it became apparent she was going to die.

She told him she didn’t fear death — she never had in her painful two-year battle against lymphoma. She worried only about what would happen to her children, Sabrina and Adam, and to the love of her life, her husband, Rob Golden.

She also told Rabbi Lebow that she wasn’t religious, though she considered herself deeply spiritual. It was a statement that made her father proud.

We spoke of religious tensions in India. Dr. Zeya sipped Sprite and launched a conversation on Islam. He believes followers of that faith must rethink their path to the future. It was not a discussion I’d expected to have at Rena’s funeral and at first, I was caught by surprise.

But on the long drive back home on 1-75, I decided otherwise. My conversation with Dr. Zeya was exactly what Rena would have wanted. Smart, forward-thinking, outside-the-box, provocative, even, and totally unexpected at a funeral. She would have liked that her father initiated an intelligent conversation with her friends and colleagues.

father
Dr. Hasan Ismail Zeya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDU-IA5I0S4

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 08:22

Hmm! Looks like RG and UZ are totally different in mental makeup. So I was wrong, it WAS Bihar-US direct. If RG spent some of her childhood in Bihar, that was clearly 1960s. No mention of sojourn either east or west.
Makes me wonder about the T- visas. She can't be ignorant enough to imagine that SR was truly exploited/mistreated, hey? So why sign off on the T-visa deal?
Was UZ also set up by the Central Park Muggers? Did the T-visas come out of her daphthar with her being 404?
Sad that at the end of the day, the principal hatchet-wielders on the Other Side are all desi/ABCD.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 04 Feb 2014 10:30

Wrong place, wrong time; relevant to this discussion:

shreeman wrote: As I stood on a bridge, a mere nothing, i saw fires worse than mordor all around, not in remote distance either. In this total disbelief, there was one consolation. The tragedy will not enter this side of the bridge, and if it did, occupants in any danger were well secured, and beyond any harm.

No harm of any sort ever came to them. I knew none of them or ever did. But I do know their temple still thrives to this day, bigger than just a handful anywhere. And I have visited it. And the events encouraged me to buy and read the guru granth sahib though I wad already firmly in the pasta fold by then. I know the language and can firmly state there were definitely Jo lade deen ke het, soora sohi.., where I was placed by fate. These are not the only prose I still recall, and note it is a book, not a person. There are no more leaders, only readers.

All, to a man, went about their business when things returned to normal. Not one mention in any press, no one sought anything in return. As pretty much everywhere else, I was no more than a journalist. Taking only mental notes. But others endangered their lives for several fateful evenings.

It is 30 years soon --october 31, and I have never seen any mention of people who stood up to the insanity. Certainly not these men. It was beyond human capacity for those people to stop what went on elsewhere, but nothing remotely unusual took place in these few square kilometers.

We do humanity a disservice by throwing shoes into the amar jawan jyoti, or assaulting the unknown soldier , and just as much by even after 30 years not knowing the whole of our own history. More of that imperfect system functioned than people know about.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 04 Feb 2014 10:35

UlanBatori wrote:Vijay:

"Bihari" is direct quote from speech by UZ at JNU or some such center of Indian nationalism. I saw it, which means it is 400% firm. The usage was pretty clear: her ancestry was not INDIAN, but "Bihar". The rest of the DNA trail is speculation. Can't tell if it was Bihar-E.Bengal-USA, or Bihar-WestPak-USA, or Bihar-E.Bengal-WestPak-USA. I don't think it was Bihar-USA. UZ is ABCP, best I can figure out.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110303/j ... 657768.jsp

“I am absolutely thrilled to come here — it is both a professional and a personal visit. My ancestors are from Bihar, so for me it is like coming home,” said Zeya, who was earlier a deputy executive secretary with the US secretary of state.

Uzra S Zeya meets Sushil Kumar Modi

zra S Zeya, Minister Councilor for Political Affairs of US Embassy in New Delhi called on Bihar Deputy Chief Minister Sushil Kumar Modi in Patna on March 3, 2011. They discussed on several issues. Modi informed Zeya about women empowerment, campaign against corruption and speedy trials undertaken by the state government.

This has been posted earlier in this thread.

http://www.indoamerican.us/progress-report.php
Several activities reported involving Ms Zeya in India.

And her roots are in Bihar West Champaran District.

Zeya, who has her roots in Bihar's West Champaran district, was talking with students of the city-based Indian Institute of Business Management about Indo-US relations at the American Centre here.

Ok Her roots are in Bettiah of West Champaran acc to this report.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 3539892480

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 04 Feb 2014 10:52

I have a pooch for the Gurus, as I am unaware of procedures of Khan's legal system.

In India, there is something called cause of action. In DK's case the cause of action is 'DK lied to VO'. What did she lie? May be she told Visa officer that she was Consul General of India, whereas she was only dy. Consul only. That is a lie. May be she said she is President of India that is a lie.

Lie and promise is different. A promise is premised on an intention for future actions. For example, DK would have promised to buy Rs 10 worth Cadbury's Cholote to SR, but when she purchased Rs.5 worth Perk chocolate, she did not realize that she is cheating SR. SR was also OK with the chocolate. Now SR becomes greedy and asks for Champagne, DK refuses. Now SR is angry. Now SR says you cheated me on your promise of chocolate.

Now in this whole story, there is a dispute between DK and SR regarding a promise made by DK. But prima facie there is no lieing by DK. When VO says DK lied, the court would say, prima facie evidence is not there, the case is dismissed.

Now what is the procedure in massa

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 04 Feb 2014 11:03

TKiran wrote:I have a pooch for the Gurus, ...

Not a guru. But it has been pointed out many times already that no arraignment has taken place yet. cheer haran and a broken family apart, it is time for introspection, to promote transparency, to promote the fate of the lot without immunity, and to remove systemic flaws -- on both sides.

There do not appear to be any significant dates in the next few days. We will not understand the calculus for quite some time to come.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 14:08

So from what I read so far per SD actions:
1. DK did not have immunity.
2. Goons arrested and did custodial atrocities.
3. She was released on bail.
5. SD asked India to WAIVE IMMUNITY so she could be tried and further atrocitied.
6. India refused.
7. Goons railroaded indictment through lynchmob.
8. India got her UN immunity to get her out of the US.
9. India got her out of the US
10. Bray of PiBs says that she NEVER HAD IMMUNITY.

Seems like Bray of PiBs has wrapped their own nonsense arguments all round their own ankles, with predictable consequences as they take each stumble. So the arrest was illegal, the charges bogus, the indictment incompetent and a gross waste of taxpayer resources, and the court filing now also nonsense. A perfect storm in the Bray of PiBs.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Feb 2014 14:50

UlanBatori wrote:So from what I read so far per SD actions:
1. DK did not have immunity.
2. Goons arrested and did custodial atrocities.
3. She was released on bail.
5. SD asked India to WAIVE IMMUNITY so she could be tried and further atrocitied.
6. India refused.
7. Goons railroaded indictment through lynchmob.
8. India got her UN immunity to get her out of the US.
9. India got her out of the US
10. Bray of PiBs says that she NEVER HAD IMMUNITY.

Sequence is like his.
1. DK did not have immunity.
2. Goons arrested and did custodial atrocities.
3. She was released on bail.
4. India got her UN immunity(US could not deny that transfer request that would be a treaty violation)
5. SD asked India to WAIVE IMMUNITY so she could be tried and further atrocitied.
6. India refused. (this is standard diplomatic practice to ask for waiver as is refusal)
7. US expelled DK and she left US
8. India expels Wayne May , and Mohtarma May is "Anmauled" by BRF, W May and A May and Paco pack off!
9. Goons railroaded indictment through lynchmob.
10. Bray of PiBs says that she NEVER HAD IMMUNITY.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 04 Feb 2014 15:59

vina wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:So from what I read so far per SD actions:
1. DK did not have immunity.
2. Goons arrested and did custodial atrocities.
3. She was released on bail.
5. SD asked India to WAIVE IMMUNITY so she could be tried and further atrocitied.
6. India refused.
7. Goons railroaded indictment through lynchmob.
8. India got her UN immunity to get her out of the US.
9. India got her out of the US
10. Bray of PiBs says that she NEVER HAD IMMUNITY.
Sequence is like his.
1. DK did not have immunity.
2. Goons arrested and did custodial atrocities.
3. She was released on bail.
4. India got her UN immunity(US could not deny that transfer request that would be a treaty violation)
5. SD asked India to WAIVE IMMUNITY so she could be tried and further atrocitied.
6. India refused. (this is standard diplomatic practice to ask for waiver as is refusal)
7. US expelled DK and she left US
8. India expels Wayne May , and Mohtarma May is "Anmauled" by BRF, W May and A May and Paco pack off!
9. Goons railroaded indictment through lynchmob.
10. Bray of PiBs says that she NEVER HAD IMMUNITY.

0. DK was given immunity of some sort for the UN General Assembly, which was to last through end of 2013.

I dont think "did not have immunity is right" the immunity paperwork is in this thread in the early pages. At best, you can say her initial immunity is disputed by PB.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Feb 2014 16:45

Shreeman wrote:0. DK was given immunity of some sort for the UN General Assembly, which was to last through end of 2013.

I dont think "did not have immunity is right" the immunity paperwork is in this thread in the early pages. At best, you can say her initial immunity is disputed by PB.

DK stated that she repeatedly told the police that she had immunity, but to no avail.

If she was lying the US should not have let her go. The fact that the US accepted that she was entitled to immunity and let her go indicates that the US state dept accepts that she had immunity at the time of her arrest and certainly at the time of her alleged criminal act.

If the US decided to grant her immunity post facto it would be breaking its own laws. What the US has been unable to do is interfere with the process that the Bray of PiBs started, illegally, it would seem, given that her immunity has been accepted as valid. The Bray of PiBs now accepts that immunity and has asked for a waiver. He also claims that the immunity was not valid against domestic US laws, which he has argued, trump any international agreements.

Intricate arguments such as these is what lawyers excel at and the courtroom is their arena. He is not going to admit that he made an error any more than the custodial rape of DK can be undone. What the Bray of PiBs has done is to open up other areas where the rest of this game can be played out in which diplomats and entities who were involved in this will be watched and "inconvenienced" until everyone feels that a degree of balance has been restored. "Dropping the case" is too simplistic a solution and I don't see it happening because that then leads to a situation where DK can counter claim violation and sue. The US is not going to admit a mistake AND risk its own being punished by US law. The US is not that fair.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 04 Feb 2014 16:54

Can we from BR put a legal case requesting for extradition of PB for the illegal "extradition" of SR from India? Some contempt of court charges will also hold good.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Feb 2014 16:58

Yogi_G wrote:Can we from BR put a legal case requesting for extradition of PB for the illegal "extradition" of SR from India? Some contempt of court charges will also hold good.

I think it is important not to "misunderestimate" any judicial system and imagine that justice will be done, especially if we are fighting the system or powerful entities in the US. In the Bositive news thread I posted a link about a PhD student who tried to fight Johns Hopkins after his work was plagiarized. As far as I know the case got nowhere and the student punished in various unrelated ways despite everything being open and known
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1588448

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 04 Feb 2014 18:31

shiv wrote:The fact that the US accepted that she was entitled to immunity and let her go indicates that the US state dept accepts that she had immunity at the time of her arrest and certainly at the time of her alleged criminal act.

If the US decided to grant her immunity post facto it would be breaking its own laws.

The way I understood it is that US didn't give her immunity post facto, but only for the period of her new posting at UN (the new UN posting after the incident, not the earlier UN accreditation). After that period she would be liable to be prosecuted.

If the US accepts (it should if it has any grace or decency) that she already had diplomatic immunity because of her earlier UN accreditation, that would be an admission that they committed a major blunder, and there can be no case against DK.

habal · Post by **habal** » 04 Feb 2014 18:34

Very important not to overestimate the power of truth. Yes, truth has a certain power all it's own but we live in subverted times where the original power of truth is much diminished. Much like the condition of our Satyameva Jayate. Lies backed by military power is what sells & dominates (atleast used to until now) in the US paradise where US is the sole superpowa.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Feb 2014 18:39

Reading through the following link I had an "aha" moment
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ce-america

But when local police forces carry assault weapons and patrol America's main streets with tanks and drones, the lines blur between the military and law enforcement. The growing militarization of the United States appears to be occurring at home as well as abroad, a phenomenon which is troublesome and sure to continue without decisive action.

Exactly whom are the US police arming themselves against?

The aha moment came when I realized that a lot of gun enthusiast videos from the US show people who genuinely like and value firearms, and a lot of them seem to have what seems to be a schoolboy fantasy where they have a special weapon or weapons cache for some future date when their homeland is under attack and they will pull out their guns and fight.

The problem for the US is that if the US has to avoid becoming a failed state like Pakistan, the government has to maintain the most deadly coercive power over and above what the citizens could possibly mobilize. That is a fundamental tenet of governance in any stable state.

But the US has been dysfunctional in being unable to control the arming of its own population and there are over 200 million weapons in private hands. Even a million armed individuals could be dangerous - heck we all saw what Somalis and the Taliban can do. So the US seems to be simply "outmatching" its own population gun for gun.

We all have to hope that the US does not become a failed state in a civil war say 50 or 100 years down the line. That would be a world war. The US is a dangerous nation heading in a dangerous direction.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 19:09

I think the legal eagals here are perhaps misunderstimating the point that the distinguished bar-ristah KLNMurthy Esq., QC, has raised.
1. PB arrested DK based on SD assertion that she had no immunity (otherwise the arrest is flat-out illegal even in the US, forget international law).
2. She got a ****new***** UN assignment and credentials, that automatically carry immunity.
3. So now.. either she HAD immunity before, or she did not.
4. SD opines that immunity does not cover acts prior to receiving immunity. This is sheer pakistan - no UN diplomat and no national leader from any nation would agree to set foot in US if that were really the case - a month after arriving, the Sikh Rights Group or the Red Brigade Rights Group or the Lashkar-e-Toiba Rights Group or the Iraqi Rights Group would file under the 1790 law for actions alleged to have occurred 20 years ago, and whammo! the Cavity Search/Virginity Test Brigade arrives.
5. This clearly does not wash, THEREFORE, SD asked India to WAIVE immunity. Why the pakistan should Immunity be WAIVED if it does not cover actions prior to assuming post that carries such immunity?
6. NOW SD opines that immunity never existed.

I hope this is at least one of the wide-open "gates" that Sri Batra so mysteriously alluded to. Kudos to Sir Murthy for pointing this out to us mangolians.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Feb 2014 19:38

^^^ UB saar you give me too much credit, I am an unwashed abdul from downtown Lhasa onlee just raising doubt in class.

Thanks for completing the syllogism, which let me restate: The only way in which the combined SD-PB theory on DK's immunity could possibly make sense is if it is possible for a defendant to have no immunity at the time of arrest but have immunity at a later stage in the legal? proceeding.

But if that were true, you would have an entirely new class of legal cases in the Land of Laws whereby a person is arrested and raped in custody but there is no chance whatsoever in logic-land of that person actually becoming a defendant in a courtroom. Come to think of it, this is exactly what Gitmo is, a well- known pakistan inyour inimitable words. This is QED of something or the other, I would think.

Does DK then already have a case for false imprisonment and torture/rape without having to wait for juj sahiba to rule on PB's submission, the case being based solely on SD-PB statements to date? And will it have implications for the Gitmo dozen or however many?

Would that, perhaps puncture the precious cloak of snooty indifference frantically donned by TSJs of the world?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Feb 2014 20:02

In the aftermath of Katrina,what were the outrageous clips? That of US marshals and guardsmen pointing guns at the poor hungry mainly black refugees,survivors of the disaster who were too poor unlike white folk to drive to safety in their SUVs! These poor unfortunates were treated as potential looters and rioters without any human compassion whatsoever.From time to time,pics of blacks,latinos,etc.,"untermenschen" to the WASPs,get savagely beaten like Rodney King.racism is alive and kicking in the US of A,why DK was targeted .Imagine the ruckus had she been a blonde, blue-eyed Aryan from Deutschland!

saip · Post by **saip** » 04 Feb 2014 20:18

UlanBatori wrote:I think the legal eagals here are perhaps misunderstimating the point that the distinguished bar-ristah KLNMurthy Esq., QC, has raised.
4. SD opines that immunity does not cover acts prior to receiving immunity. This is sheer pakistan - no UN diplomat and no national leader from any nation would agree to set foot in US if that were really the case - a month after arriving, the Sikh Rights Group or the Red Brigade Rights Group or the Lashkar-e-Toiba Rights Group or the Iraqi Rights Group would file under the 1790 law for actions alleged to have occurred 20 years ago, and whammo! the Cavity Search/Virginity Test Brigade arrives.

That part 'immunity does not cover acts prior to receiving immunity' seems to be correct legal position. But during the immunity people may level charges but no case can be filed nor can the person be arrested. Then there is this statute of limitations. AFAIK it stops during the time of immunity and resumes after the end of immunity.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Feb 2014 20:32

This from Tehelka
http://www.tehelka.com/devyani-khobraga ... of-arrest/

39-year-old Khobragade, who was posted as Deputy Consul General in New York, was also accredited as an “Advisor to the Permanent Mission of India to the United Nations” by the UN w.e.f. 26th August 2013 and her status as an Advisor was valid until 31 December 2013. The accreditation was for the UN General Assembly 2013.

Under the “Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations”, Article 4 Section 11A specifies “Immunities from personal arrest or detention and from the seizure of their personal baggage” of all representatives of members to the UN and further the Article specifies that the expression “Representative” shall be deemed to include all Delegates, Deputy Delegates, Advisors, Technical Experts and Secretaries of delegations.

“Her arrest, therefore, on December 12th 2013 was contrary to her status on that date,” sources said.

member_28380 · Post by **member_28380** » 04 Feb 2014 20:33

Khans are back to what they have done all along before. Sponsoring Islamic Terror all over.
Esp BHO+JK combo means jihad all over...

Very accurate analysis:

Sub-continental drift: Strategic reasons India, US are heading down different paths

http://rt.com/op-edge/india-us-drift-apart-why-629/

Both Russia and China are with the Indians and differing with the Americans primarily because of their concerns about the deadly web of Islamist terrorism that the American policies may weave for the region.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Feb 2014 20:53

So Ombaba's "pivot to Asia" failed and hence the bruising of Indian diplomats by SD?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Feb 2014 20:53

That part 'immunity does not cover acts prior to receiving immunity' seems to be correct legal position.

Ah, yes, which is why those SD Legal ~~turkeys~~ Eagles who wanted to show off their Knawlidj of the Law (or "Lor" as they say in Bostonabad), rushed and hid in that pakistan.

a) This means that if Dubya goes to India he can be arrested; so can Kerry for suspicion of war crimes committed in Vietnamistan (how many civilians died when the Special Boat crews raked the shores with machinegun fire under the Pacification programs? There is no statute of limitations on murder..

And any Ambassadors, BDS ppl etc who sheltered Raymond Davis in Islamabad can be arrested under the 1790 ATS law. There is no statute of limitations on murder..

b) The UN thingy that the SD claimed to be "concocted" was either concocted in which case why did SD ask India to WAIVE immunity? Or it was not concocted, it was real, in which case said statement was a lie and deliberate slander and actionable. And if it was not concocted then the arrest etc were completely illegal and actionable. Now the SD goes into some Reganesque contortions: The expiry date was written as 2016 which "makes no sense". Where does it have to make any sense? Did the SD send it back for correction? Or explicitly reject it? Neither happened, therefore it is presumed to be OK.

If the expiry was 2016, then it did not expire in 2013. Duh!
If the expiry date did not make sense, then it would have terminated at a date that SD informed DK and the Indians that it was going to expire, with a due 30 days notice etc. Nothing of the sort was done.

The argument that the request was related to MMS visit, and MMS came and went, so DK had nothing to do after that at the UN, is completely irrelevant. So did SR have not much to do once the two kids started going to school, and this is not taken into account in considering the visa application. In any event, as previously mentioned, none of these diplos can bear examination of exactly WHAT they do, and that question pries into the deep cavities of Sovereign Diplomatic Classified Info. If the SD introduces evidence that DK had no work to do, that is spying, in violation of the jinn-e-va convenshun.

Wow! This legalese is so cool .. infinite potential to write, without making any sense.

Summary: The moment SD ASKED INDIA TO WAIVE IMMUNITY, they took a flying leap into a sea of pakistan.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 04 Feb 2014 20:54

Fact is the issues of Islamic terrorism in Indian subcontinent doesn't affect USA at all but directly does affect India. That paths of USA and India differ means strategic USA policies are not in interests of India at all and USA doesn't have anything to lose anyway.