India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[amit]

To continue this CT mode discussion consider this folks.

One of the reasons Desis are used to go after other Desis is being played out on this dhaga as we speak - or write so to say. Asli Desis would be too involved in discussion if Desis like PB and Zeya are patriotic Desis (as opposed to folks like Rajat Gupta and yes that Rajaratnam guy is SRI LANKAN not Desi) or not. This dilutes the focus from the main point of contention, that is the illegal arrest and custodial rape of an Indian Diplomat.

Two questions need to be asked in the DK case, as well as the Rajat Gupta et al examples.

1) Would Amir Khan's actions have been different if PB and Zeya were gora or some other color? [Answer: Certainly not and that's all we should be concerned with IMO]

2) If you had walked up to Gupta ji and Rajaratnam ji before their tryst with PB and asked them nicely, "Saar what is your nationality?" What would they have said? "Bhaat kind of pooch izz thaat - asli Amir Khan hyo!" The same question asked to PB and Zeya would also elicit the same response. With this addition I reckon: "My Phorpathars were so smmaaart they came to the Land of Milk and Honey!" So in case you didn't notice they are on the same side of the touchline, milking the system for personal gratification. It just so happened that Gupta saab fell foul with the real puppeteers. No skin off our teeth I would say.

I ask you what the hell does it matter if some Desi-looking Amir Khan gets a big appointment? Their attitude would be no different from an all Amir Khan appointment,. His/her treatment or attitude towards India will be determined by the kind of person he/she is and what directive they get from higher ups. Amir Khan interests would come first always, heck they took an oath to ensure that happens, why do folks think they will do otherwise?

Let's not miss the woods for the trees folks. Our grouse is with the treatment of an Indian diplomat and the fact that trafficking allegations were raised which goes all the way back to GoI. The rest is maaya only.

[shiv]

Generalization below:
Another issue with a colored officer in the position of power is the issue of being aware of ones ethnicity and the resulting "othering" phenomenon happening with the larger society. They become hyperaware of the consequences if they step out of bounds of what is expected of them. So in order to prove themselves, they will usually be strictly conformist and would punish one of "their own" more harshly than anyone else to send a message that they belong with the larger society and not with the "othered" ethnicity. This is when one approaches MUTU boundary.

True or not, this is such a beautifully worded paragraph that I wish I had written it.

About Nadella:
1. The Indian press reported his as saying that "Cricket taught him how to be a team player". That is an unAmerican thing to say
2. He is among the fist non IIT biggies whose college is mentioned somewhere or the other. That means that Indian private colleges, that were built long after the IITs now have graduates who are getting somewhere

[member_22733]

True or not, this is such a beautifully worded paragraph that I wish I had written it.

Is my leg being pulled here? Sometimes Sarcasm has to run me over a couple of times for me to get it

[member_28434]

Amit writes:

If you had walked up to Gupta ji and Rajaratnam ji before their tryst with PB and asked them nicely, "Saar what is your nationality?" What would they have said? "Bhaat kind of pooch izz thaat - asli Amir Khan hyo!" The same question asked to PB and Zeya would also elicit the same response. With this addition I reckon: "My Phorpathars were so smmaaart they came to the Land of Milk and Honey!" So in case you didn't notice they are on the same side of the touchline, milking the system for personal gratification. It just so happened that Gupta saab fell foul with the real puppeteers. No skin off our teeth I would say.

Actually, this is not so.

Gupta was a big player in creating the American India foundation and he also masterminded the fund-raising for the Gujarat earthquake.

He might have done it for the sake of public profile (or not) but he was well-regarded and liked as a desi representative, not as some fungible corporate boss.

He hung out with Indians and didn't adopt a MUTU persona. That was precisely why he was an easy target - he had no close friends at Goldman Sachs, who knew him and could have defended him. He was an outsider.

Rajaratnam - a different and much more flawed figure - was also involved in charity work for those injured in LTTE and Lanka clashes.

There was some suspicion that this might actually be terrorist-funding (or at least the USG used that pretext) and it was while monitoring him for suspect terrorist ties that the Feds ran into the insider-trading business.

That is how wire-taps got involved in his case.

So both Gupta and Rajaratnam were not totally lacking in any ethnic identity. It was specifically their importance to their respective diasporic communities that made them targets.

Second, It is not true that the same thing (the DK assault) would have happened if PB and Zeya were gora.

The whole operation REQUIRED that the prosecutor and target share ethnicity so that it could be established for the "audience" that the system that produced the "good" injun (liberal, humanist, modern, progressive, rational, Western) is to be preferred/upheld over the system that produced the "bad injun." (traditional, conservative, primitive, irrational, Indian).

That dynamic cannot play out with gora prosecutors and SD officials.

The globalist ideology overtly states that all men are equal before the law and it punishes racial prejudice through social ostracism (political correctness),

However, the public enacting (theater) of the ideology contradicts the dogma.

The enacting always plays upon the dominant stereotype of the day - in which "turd world" is both politically and morally inferior to batman's (or sheriff's) world.

[member_28380]

To continue this CT mode discussion consider this folks.



1) Would Amir Khan's actions have been different if PB and Zeya were gora or some other color? [Answer: Certainly not and that's all we should be concerned with IMO]

Your point about the negative attitudes towards India emanating from the whole US diplomatic, strategic community is true. However, re: #1 above, I think the exact opposite is true. If there had been white Americans (or any other kind) at the positions of UZ and PB, the whole DK fiasco might not have been played out the way it did. The role of Uncle Tom mindset and MATA syndrome playing significant role cannot be dismissed.

There was a very nice blog about how third world immigrants who attain powerful positions in the US often abuse power, conduct themselves as in third world, etc (the main thesis of the blog, not mine) and violate US constitution. I searched for it, couldn't find it. The blog cited several examples.

Although Nancy Powell, May couple all played significant roles, the role of UZ is likely pretty big. Newly appointed, wanted to show something big on human trafficking. Obvious easy target India.

[shiv]

True or not, this is such a beautifully worded paragraph that I wish I had written it.

Is my leg being pulled here? Sometimes Sarcasm has to run me over a couple of times for me to get it

No No sarcasm. It is well written and the reason I wish I has written it is because I believe there is truth in it. The only debatable point would be the degree to which it affects a given person's life. It is often necessary to "belong" in order to make it and not fall by the wayside. Any Indian who migrates to foreign lands faces thee choices and it's not easy for everyone.

People of "other" ethnic origins are expected to conform to stereotypes. That is why in india a white person is seen as "Rich, fair and generous unllke Indians". This is what we are taught and this is why we suck up. As a boy in the 1960s (in India of course) I was fascinated to read a list of most hated names in the US what included the name "Rahul". One half of my mind said "Hey this name is known". The other half was telling me, it's known only to be disliked. My father who was sailing to the US in the 1940s was asked by GIs returning home on the same ship "Are you a Maharaya?". One comic in the 60s showed the wealthy American boy on an elephant telling the turbaned mahout "To the ice-cream parlor, Krishnov"

The Indian stereotype of skinny starving people is as much alive in the US as the stereotype of "just and wealthy" white man is in India. You cannot wash such stereotypes away for 3 or 4 generations because you will always recall what your grandfather used to say and carry his attitudes somewhere deep inside, modified by your education and experiences. It is unfortunate that positive (if false) stereotypes have been instilled in Indian minds and negative ones in western minds. The undercurrent of bias requires one to have robust defences up all the time to override the small fry and stay up there with the biggies. That would entail exactly what you said.

[SSridhar]

Talks to Avoid Devyani Redux - The Hindu

While remaining open to dialogue, Mr. Khurshid said the Centre would continue to monitor the American Embassy School’s functioning in the light of media reports of tax and visa violations.

“The government has sought the relevant information from the school to examine compliance with relevant Indian laws by the school and its employees and it will take necessary action accordingly in this matter,’’ he said.

This is complete surrender to the Americans. No data has come forth from the school, India is unable to press the issue further or close down the school, it is now hoping for some dialogue where I fear that the US will make some cosmetic concessions but insist on India rolling back all its measures.

[UlanBatori]

shiv beat me to it. I was rubbing the varnish off a kitchen cabinet door - something I do because I am too cheap, sdre, poor and non-generous to hire a carpenter-nanny to do that. Carpenters in Ulan Bator make more than Wall Street execs (at least per the execs' tax forms).

Is my leg being pulled here? Sometimes Sarcasm has to run me over a couple of times for me to get it

No sarcasm, you really said it.

[member_28380]

Talks to Avoid Devyani Redux - The Hindu

While remaining open to dialogue, Mr. Khurshid said the Centre would continue to monitor the American Embassy School’s functioning in the light of media reports of tax and visa violations.

“The government has sought the relevant information from the school to examine compliance with relevant Indian laws by the school and its employees and it will take necessary action accordingly in this matter,’’ he said.

This is complete surrender to the Americans. No data has come forth from the school, India is unable to press the issue further or close down the school, it is now hoping for some dialogue where I fear that the US will make some cosmetic concessions but insist on India rolling back all its measures.

India is being muzzled privately on this issue. Not clear what US is giving--carrots or sticks? or combination of both?

[UlanBatori]

This is complete surrender to the Americans.

Too early to say. It's not yet 30 days since the Anmauling, let alone the school revelations. The Eye Tee Dept, when they get around to sending a notice, usually gives a few days to respond, hey? No sense in the guvrmand chest-thumping if the aces are on their side anyway.

[UlanBatori]

Gupta was a big player in creating the Indian American foundation and he also masterminded the fund-raising for the Gujarat earthquake.

Hmm!! U mean American India Foundation (AIF)
Far b it from me to spk ill of those at hu's party one gorged oneself on free chai-biskoot-samosa, but.. let me put it this way: until you wrote that, I was on my way 2 believing that Shri Gupta was indeed a wonderfully altruistic person.

[TSJones]

dear Professor Ulan,

I could be wrong and I am certainly not 100% correct all of the time but you already knew that didn't you?

Anyhoo, the AES will not give up any teachers to be prosecuted. I've checked the AES balance sheet and they are not a for profit organization. There is no money for fines, penalties, etc. The US Government has disavowed any responsibility for the school. India is going to have to shut it down. That should give you a warm fuzzy feeling, eh?

I certainly hope any indian organization in the US is clean tax wise as a hound toothe. I am sure everything is above board there. Don't you worry.

[UlanBatori]

Thanks. I am sure "Indian" organizations in the US operate with no interest from the IRS in whether they pay taxes or not. yup!

The AES is not only non-profit (by design or by management?), it is clearly tax-free, ethics-free and law-free as well. Totally charitable, no doubt. As for shutting it down, the IRS doesn't seem to have much warmth or fuzziness about demanding back taxes, interest and penalties regardless of whether one is profitable, has a bank balance or not.

[TSJones]

Thanks. I am sure "Indian" organizations in the US operate with no interest from the IRS in whether they pay taxes or not. yup!

The AES is not only non-profit (by design or by management?), it is clearly tax-free, ethics-free and law-free as well. Totally charitable, no doubt. As for shutting it down, the IRS doesn't seem to have much warmth or fuzziness about demanding back taxes, interest and penalties regardless of whether one is profitable, has a bank balance or not.

I knew you'd feel good about having it shut down. Ah'm a genius!

[UlanBatori]

What school kid does not appreciate school being closed, I ask you?

[amit]

Actually, this is not so.

Gupta was a big player in creating the Indian American foundation and he also masterminded the fund-raising for the Gujarat earthquake.

He might have done it for the sake of public profile (or not) but he was well-regarded and liked as a desi representative, not as some fungible corporate boss.

He hung out with Indians and didn't adopt a MUTU persona. That was precisely why he was an easy target - he had no close friends at Goldman Sachs, who knew him and could have defended him. He was an outsider.

Sorry I don't see what this proves? He created the Indian American foundation, did fund-raising for the Gujarat earthquake - all this I guess proves he's a nice bloke, good for him.

However, now let me give you a few counter examples. I have good friend, who would be considered a mid-level honcho in the IT world who's as Amir Khan as they come. Yet, he has tied up with an Indian NGO and spends his own money to fund what this NGO does, mainly in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh, that is build toilets at girl's schools so that the girls don't stop coming to school once they reach puberty. After congratulating him, I asked him where he got this idea. He told me he was visiting his company's office in Bangalore and at a dinner some guys/gals walked up and made an impromptu presentation to him and he loved the idea. Now he's considering that it's best to stop selling software and concentrate full time on this work, his wife is an enthusiastic supporter. We stay in the same city, and whenever I'm looking for a new India restaurant, he's the guy who gives me the recommendations. Incidentally his son and daughter both study in Ivy league - the whole idea is to show he's the typically Amir Khan success story and yet he has great empathy for India. So what category does he fall in vis a vis Gupta?

Another example: I know an analyst who's again the all Amir Khan herrow type who on the first day we met proudly fished out his PIO card from his wallet and showed it to me. He's married to an Indian lady. At events where I've shared the dais with him he's shown an incredible empathy for India, while at the same time going after things like policy paralysis (which we do all the time with gusto here). Interestingly he's currently estranged with his wife and they live separately and yet he makes it a point to visit India every year and visit his in-laws!

These are just two random example and sorry to have bored you with them, but they prove the point that you don't need to have brown skin to have empathy with India just as a brown skin does not automatically ensure empathy towards desh.

Coming back to Gupta and Rajaratnam, one needs to remember that they are at the end of the day citizens of their country and they made a conscious decision to play by the Amir Khan rules and they made a lot money by playing by those rules. Gupta is a multi-millionaire - at least before his arrest. Rajaratnam of course is a billionaire. They made the money playing the system and got taken by the system. I'd say if Gupta didn't have close friends in Goldman that's his bad, he shouldn't have been on the board. He certainly had a lot of good friends in McKinsey who helped him reach the top there.

All this comes back to the point I'm making. Why is it that we expect that folks who have given up Indian citizenship and made a new life for themselves in another land (mind you I have no grudges against that) should somehow be beholden to Bharat and constantly show their gratitude? It's a Desi flaw in thinking that way, the same flaw which has resulted in the farticles in the Indian press of how Satya Nadella did not mention India in any of his speeches since getting the top job in Microsoft? I mean why the heck should he? For whatever reason he got the job, it certainly wasn't because he's an Indian origin American?

I'm sorry on one hand we criticize the press for all the sentimental rubbish and yet we indulge in the same here.

I still maintain, that whatever happened between Gupta and PB is a case of one Amir Khan going after another Amir Khan. The fact that they both can trace their genealogy to Bharat is just incidental.

Which is why the DK case is a totally different kettle of fish from Gupta and Rajaratnam cases because DK is Indian and a GoI representative to boot. When we mix them together we are only diluting the focus from the custodial rape of an Indian diplomat on false charges.

[member_26011]

New American School near the old American School.

[TSJones]

I understand completely my dear good Professor. The IRS in the US are a bunch of pushovers anyway. All you gotta do is write your congress critter and they'll fold.

[anmol]

The Decline of the Vulcans: How Obama’s sidelined Cabinet explains his foreign policy
by Max Fisher, washingtonpost.com
November 14th 2013 12:34 PM

Cabinet-level positions can be frustrating in any administration, but are especially so under President Obama, whose White House marginalizes its Cabinet "to an extreme," according to an extensive story by Glenn Thrush in the new Politico magazine.

Of particular interest, for readers interested in U.S. foreign policy, is Thrush's account of how Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates started out as "probably [the cabinet's] most powerful" member but ultimately came to feel sidelined and ignored. The story seems to confirm a long-observed trend in the Obama administration: Foreign policy decision-making has shifted from the pros in the State Department and the military to a small number of younger staffers in the White House.

"The West Wing’s obsessive control of messaging drove Gates crazy," Thrush writes, "and he felt crowded by young amateurs in the White House who had much less experience and much better access to Obama — guys like [White House Chief of Staff Denis] McDonough and speechwriter Ben Rhodes, who would weigh in after the secretary’s SUV had departed for the Pentagon."

It wasn't just that Gates saw his influence wane over White House foreign policy decision-making, the story says – the White House insiders who'd crowded him out eventually started following him back to the Pentagon, playing a greater role at Gates's home institution.

Of course, Cabinet secretaries will lose some debates in any presidential administration. Most of Ronald Reagan's Cabinet opposed his outreach to Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, for example. Gates himself, at the time deputy CIA director, was a vocal critic of the policy, warning that Gorbachev was a wolf in sheep's clothing and not a true reformer. Gates turned out to be dead wrong, and Reagan's decision to go against his Cabinet was ultimately proven right. Still, as Thrush persuasively argues, the Obama administration has persistently sidelined its Cabinet to an extent that may well be unique.

This trend looks, in many ways, like the reverse of a phenomenon that journalist James Mann termed "The Rise of the Vulcans." In a book of the same name, Mann chronicled how a group of highly experienced conservative foreign policy veterans – almost all of them Cabinet members – came to dominate foreign policy-making in the George W. Bush administration. The "Vulcans" – named after the Roman god of fire – included seasoned pros like Deputy Secretaries of Defense Richard Armitage and Paul Wolfowitz, U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. They played a tremendous role in shaping U.S. foreign policy during the Bush administration; the president frequently consulted with, or deferred to, that team, depending on your view.

It's no secret that Obama came into office seeing his successor's foreign policy as a series of catastrophic failures. His desire to avoid similar mistakes, as much as his particular personality and his tendency to surround himself by young and ultra-loyal insiders, may help explain Gates's disillusionment. The former CIA director was a veteran of the Bush administration, after all, where he was given significant space to clean up the messes left by Rumsfeld. Gates was never a "Vulcan" of the Bush administration, exactly, but he'd had the power of one.

The decline of the foreign policy Vulcans under Obama may go a long way to explaining his administration's sometimes puzzling foreign policy. The vacillations over important issues — for example Obama's 2009 commitment to a "surge" in Afghanistan followed by a 2011 disavowal of that strategy — make more sense in this light. The administration changed policy on Afghanistan as the military failed to secure gains there, yes, but also as his administration shifted its decision-making center of gravity from Vulcan-style veterans to White House insiders. The "surge" had been favored by military leaders such as Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who won out against a group of White House skeptics, led by Vice President Biden. Two years later, McChrystal was gone and the surge had fallen out of favor – along with the Pentagon's influence over Afghanistan strategy.

As foreign policy decision-making power has shifted away from the Cabinet – and from the agencies they represent – it's appeared to flow to Obama loyals such as McDonough and Rhodes, as well as Samantha Power — an adviser who recently became the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations — and National Security Adviser Susan Rice.

That push-pull between Cabinet secretaries and Obama advisers seems to have been fiercest around the issues where the Obama administration has appeared most inactive, perhaps reflecting an internal deadlock. That has been most true in the Middle East, where, for example, the administration responded to Egypt's July military coup with the satisfy-no-one half-measure of suspending some military aid to Cairo months after the fact. Maybe most pointedly, the administration committed in September to launching limited military strikes against Syria – a policy that bore the fingerprints of Obama loyalists like Power, but with which Cabinet secretaries and military leaders were almost transparently uncomfortable. The White House backed off the strikes when Congress made its opposition clear and when Moscow gave them an exit by suggesting that Syria could surrender its chemical weapons instead.

Tellingly, when Obama decided to nix the strikes, Thrush reports that his two most important cabinet secretaries were not even in the room. Neither Secretary of State John Kerry nor Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel were present for the decision, according to McDonough, who was.

Each presidential administration typically faces some of its toughest, and at times most internally divisive, challenges in foreign policy. And foreign policy is unusual in that it involves multiple powerful agencies – State, the Pentagon, the intelligence community and others – but has relatively little input from Congress. In many ways, then, how an administration internally organizes itself can be especially important when it comes to its foreign policy. That is especially apparent with the Obama presidency and the foreign policy legacy it's shaping for itself.

An Open Letter to Ambassador Samantha Power Regarding Exploitation Charges Against Indian Diplomat
by Laura DeMoss, freedomnetworkusa.org
November 30th -0001

The Honorable Samantha Power
U.S. Permanent Representative to the United States
United States Mission to the United Nations
799 United Nations Plaza
New York, New York 10017

Re: Devyani Khobragade

Dear Madam Ambassador:

We write today to thank you for holding the U.S.U.N. November meeting with diplomatic personnel in New York on domestic worker exploitation. As you may know, the Freedom Network is a coalition of 35 non-governmental organizations and individual experts from across the United States working directly with survivors of human trafficking. We were pleased to learn that the briefing for diplomats occurred, as you had promised in your October 24, 2013 letter.

We appreciate your personal participation, as it indicates how seriously the United States Government treats allegations of exploitation and abuse against A-3/G-5 domestic worker visa-holders. We also applaud the recent arrest of an Indian consular employee on charges that she committed visa fraud and uttered false statements. We are also aware of allegations that she severely underpaid her A-3 domestic worker. We support the Department of State and the Department of Justice in their efforts to crack down on the rampant abuse of the A-3 visa scheme.

While we recognize there have been no allegations of human trafficking in this case, we are united in our commitment to advance the human rights of all persons in the workplace. As we pointed out in our October 3, 2013 coalition letter to you, violations of the rights of A-3 domestic workers fall along a continuum, ranging from underpayment of wages to trafficking into forced labor and domestic servitude. We believe that it is very important to enforce all U.S. laws to prevent and punish criminal violations along that continuum committed by those with access to A-3 workers.

Efforts to hold diplomats and consular officials accountable should be lauded by all who seek to uphold the rule of law. This case is an example of the American ideal that everyone, no matter how powerful, is equal before the law. We stand with domestic worker at the center of this case.

We support you and the U.S. Government as the Department of Justice pursues this criminal action. We hope that the U.S. Government will continue to pursue this case aggressively.

Sincerely,

The Freedom Network

[Shreeman]

Please to pardon my being out of the cave, and ask silly question. But what majik of yak-milk, butter and honey gives this power of posting 24 hour non-stop from Ulan Bator? Genuine qurio-city onlee. Doejnt one ever sleep?

[shiv]

dear Professor Ulan,

I could be wrong and I am certainly not 100% correct all of the time but you already knew that didn't you?

Anyhoo, the AES will not give up any teachers to be prosecuted. I've checked the AES balance sheet and they are not a for profit organization. There is no money for fines, penalties, etc. The US Government has disavowed any responsibility for the school. India is going to have to shut it down. That should give you a warm fuzzy feeling, eh?

I certainly hope any indian organization in the US is clean tax wise as a hound toothe. I am sure everything is above board there. Don't you worry.

You checked the AES finances?

From here?

http://aes.ac.in/tcontent_attachments/2 ... ion%29.pdf

There is a document that lists the charter of the AES, Delhi
http://aes.ac.in/user-files/170/Chapter-1_2012-13.pdf

From page 6

c) To provide grant-in-aid financial assistance, subject to policy in effect from time to
time, to enable or promote attendance at the School by eligible children whose
attendance might otherwise cause financial hardship to their families.
(d) In furtherance of any of the Association'
s objectives, powers or authorities as stated
or implicit in this Charter; to solic
it, receive and expend money and other property
with which to defray or meet the expenses of the Association and to issue therefore
suitable receipts or acknowledgements; to borrow money from, or extend credit to,
any person, firm or corporation; to issue notes or obligations; to secure by mortgage,
pledge or other lawful means; and to enter into and carry out contracts and
agreements of every kind and description without monetary or other limitation

Page 8

The Association is not established for profit and, therefore, it shall have no authority to
issue shares. As a general principle, the Association's affairs will be so managed that its
annual income (from all sources) will equal or somewhat exceed its total expenditures with
allowance to be made for the setting aside of reasonable and appropriate reserves against
contingencies.

About the USA washing its hands off the school:
From page 8

The Board, subject to approval of the Ambassador, may establish, and from time to time
amend, By-Laws of the Association consistent with this Charter.

Page 9

Amendments to this Charter will require the Association’s compliance with the following
procedures:
(a) Written notice of the proposed amendment at least 10 days in advance of a special
meeting called for such purpose, or of the semi-annual meeting.
(b) Approval by a two-thirds majority of those voting.
(c) Approval by the Ambassador of the proposed amendment.

Ultimately this is going to be about legal procedures in the US and in India. They will take their own course and will be guided in such a way that neither the Khobragade issue nor the AES school issue will really affect ties too negatively. For both India and the US, the issue of toes revolve around public opinion. If the public perceives wrong doing the politicians have to either tell lies or set things right.

What the US did was to accuse an Indian diplomat of slavery and proceeded to subject her to custodial rape in the guise of "standard procedure". That cannot be taken back, although amends will have to be made somewhere. In exchange for this information has been released that some US diplomats in India are racist and the American school is guilty of visa and tax fraud in India. That is where it stands now as far as I can tell.

[Arjun]

Just to re-iterate what others have said, and what I have said before, I could care 2 hoots whether this Nadella guy wants to hide his Indian ethnicity or tout it, what matters is the stupid DDM going berserk, and the impression it gives whites. It is precisely this craving for white attention that has an adverse impact on US India relations that honchos like Strobe Talbott can make an outrageous, racist, condescending assertion that if India did this, this, and that post Pokhran-II, India will be "rewarded" with a US Presidential visit. Or the disgusting child-like lollipop that Bush and Co threw at India that they will make India a "super power" after making TSP a MUNNA post 9/11 ignoring its terrorism against India.

I think the ire is misplaced....nothing wrong in the least in celebrating the success of Indian-origin folks. Indians celebrate success and achievement in all forms - and it is partly the attention paid to such achievement that provides for role models and spurs the community to produce more of such achievers. Its got nothing to do with "whites" per se - if "whites" feel that this constitutes a craving for their attention, they are free to delude themselves. This "feeling" may be more your imagination though...

The real idiocy of Indian media and public attitudes lies not in the overplaying of PIO success but the overplaying of foreign brands as compared to Indian ones. Pick up any Indian rag and you would find trashy articles on how BMW, Ford and GM are finding success in India - or that Dell and HP have taken over the Indian market beating out HCL and Wipro, or that Facebook and LinkedIn regard India as their biggest growth markets outside the US. The deep fetish for international brands is the real disease that needs to rooted out from the Indian mindset - not their penchant for celebrating PIO success which is probably a net positive.

[TSJones]

dear Professor Ulan,

I could be wrong and I am certainly not 100% correct all of the time but you already knew that didn't you?

Anyhoo, the AES will not give up any teachers to be prosecuted. I've checked the AES balance sheet and they are not a for profit organization. There is no money for fines, penalties, etc. The US Government has disavowed any responsibility for the school. India is going to have to shut it down. That should give you a warm fuzzy feeling, eh?

I certainly hope any indian organization in the US is clean tax wise as a hound toothe. I am sure everything is above board there. Don't you worry.

You checked the AES finances?

From here?

http://aes.ac.in/tcontent_attachments/2 ... ion%29.pdf

There is a document that lists the charter of the AES, Delhi
http://aes.ac.in/user-files/170/Chapter-1_2012-13.pdf

From page 6

c) To provide grant-in-aid financial assistance, subject to policy in effect from time to
time, to enable or promote attendance at the School by eligible children whose
attendance might otherwise cause financial hardship to their families.
(d) In furtherance of any of the Association'
s objectives, powers or authorities as stated
or implicit in this Charter; to solic
it, receive and expend money and other property
with which to defray or meet the expenses of the Association and to issue therefore
suitable receipts or acknowledgements; to borrow money from, or extend credit to,
any person, firm or corporation; to issue notes or obligations; to secure by mortgage,
pledge or other lawful means; and to enter into and carry out contracts and
agreements of every kind and description without monetary or other limitation

Page 8

The Association is not established for profit and, therefore, it shall have no authority to
issue shares. As a general principle, the Association's affairs will be so managed that its
annual income (from all sources) will equal or somewhat exceed its total expenditures with
allowance to be made for the setting aside of reasonable and appropriate reserves against
contingencies.

About the USA washing its hands off the school:
From page 8

The Board, subject to approval of the Ambassador, may establish, and from time to time
amend, By-Laws of the Association consistent with this Charter.

Page 9

Amendments to this Charter will require the Association’s compliance with the following
procedures:
(a) Written notice of the proposed amendment at least 10 days in advance of a special
meeting called for such purpose, or of the semi-annual meeting.
(b) Approval by a two-thirds majority of those voting.
(c) Approval by the Ambassador of the proposed amendment.

Ultimately this is going to be about legal procedures in the US and in India. They will take their own course and will be guided in such a way that neither the Khobragade issue nor the AES school issue will really affect ties too negatively. For both India and the US, the issue of toes revolve around public opinion. If the public perceives wrong doing the politicians have to either tell lies or set things right.

What the US did was to accuse an Indian diplomat of slavery and proceeded to subject her to custodial rape in the guise of "standard procedure". That cannot be taken back, although amends will have to be made somewhere. In exchange for this information has been released that some US diplomats in India are racist and the American school is guilty of visa and tax fraud in India. That is where it stands now as far as I can tell.

Well then you tell me how much money they have for contingencies and how much will they need for this fiasco? You haven't proven me wrong in stating the school will have to be shut down due to to refusal to give up teachers data and placing of fees and penalties. However, I defer to your expert knowledge in this matter. Certainly you want these criminals to be shut down don't you? Let me tell you the NRI's are avidly waiting for this to happen. Just like granny's pet chihuahua waiting for a mini-dog biscuit to gnaw on..

[shiv]

Please permit me some sociological comments as a follow up of my statement that Indians are brought up to admire white man's sense of justice, fair play and consequent power and wealth. I won't bother going into details of why and how these impressions got into the Indian mind, but I thought that this is as as good an opportunity as any to point out why Indians (and Pakistani and Arab) men are reputed to be sexual predators when it comes to white women, and why white women are considered loose and easily available by men "from the South and East")

I will not trade accusations of who rapes more - we have already see a diplomat calling Indian vegetarians rapists and others pointing out that the US is the rape capital. I think these figures do not teach anyone anything.

I don't know where and when it started, but at some time in western society it became normal for men an women to hold hands, brush against each other, hug, or kiss, at least on the cheeks. I do know that holding a lady's hand and kissing it was OK in European society, and a degree of physical contact was acceptable while dancing.

But actual physical contact between man and woman was always discouraged in India society unless they were closely related. In India I do not greet another Indian's wife with a hug and a brush of cheeks with the "mmmoooua" action of kissing the air. It just ain't done. You do not hold hands with unrelated women and do not embrace them. You do not touch them. During some occasions touch is allowed - such as Holi where touch should (in terms of propriety) be restricted to areas of the body that do not constitute erogenous zones. Holi comes once a year.

There is a definite gap in the way Indian society perceives the way a woman should be touched compared to the west. A woman who accepts being touched in public by a man is seen as a woman who is ready for a degree of sexual intimacy with that man. Clearly this is not correct in terms of men and women touching in the west. But the cultural confusion results in Indian men being accused of being predatory about western women and white women being considered as "loose and available" for sex.

Thanks for reading. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

[Arjun]

Certainly you want these criminals to be shut down don't you? Let me tell you the NRI's are avidly waiting for this to happen.

Yes, there will be quite a few mediocre NRIs who don't have the ability to get into better schools, who would be disappointed if the American School were to be shut down. Quite similar to the fraud degree-granting institutes in the US that were recently shut down - there will always be some "collateral damage" in the form of some students getting affected.

[member_22733]

OT:
Shiv saar, After visiting some temples around Rajasthan and MP (the ones that were left alone by the invading Islamic Barbarians), I have come to the conclusion that it was ok for some physical contact between men and women back in the pre-islamic days. Touching in a respectable manner was ok.

Infact a single trip to Khajuraho will make it clear that something clearly happened between then and now for so much sexual segregation to occur in India.

This in no way suggests that I consider what exists in India as inferior. Just different. It can and should be reformed, not with borrowed ideas from west, but with genuine understanding of the culture.

[TSJones]

^^^^^oh yeah baby, American women are hot and wanting some foreign action!

Gosh, I'm begining to sound like a street barker standing outside a New Orleans strip club. hmmmm that does present an interesting job prospect when I retire. ......better than donning the blue vest at walmart as a door greeter.

[shiv]

Well then you tell me how much money they have for contingencies and how much will they need for this fiasco? You haven't proven me wrong in stating the school will have to be shut down due to to refusal to give up teachers data and placing of fees and penalties. However, I defer to your expert knowledge in this matter. Certainly you want these criminals to be shut down don't you? Let me tell you the nri's are avidly waiting for this happen. Just like granny's pet chihuahua waiting for a mini-dog biscuit to gnaw on..

Not so fast. This is India, not America where fingers are inserted into genitals before thinking.

I don't think anyone wants the school shut down although many people are keen to simply scare the shit out of people associated with the school and make them feel like a virtual cavity search has been conducted.

What is actually done about any irregularities is moot. Indians tend to be kind and forgiving in such cases. if the infraction is mild, it may simply be payment of back taxes and plenty of time to do that. If the infraction is serious the findings will be referred to the foreign ministry to decide whether it is OK to proceed against the school.

Can the Indian foreign ministry interfere with legal processes in India? Legally, no. In practice yes.

Can the US state dept interfere with legal processes in the US? Legally, no. In practice. Yes.

[member_22733]

^^^^^oh yeah baby, Americanwomen are hot and wanting someforeignaction!

Fixed it for you. People are horny, everywhere. Thats a part of being human.

EDIT: But with so much going against Indian men (what with vegetarian rapist and all) your statement does not reflect the truth as far as Indian men are concerned. Thinking process almost goes like this (gathered from informal survey of GHQ's friends): "French and the British men... oh yeah.... But 'Asians' and 'Indians'..... ummm I dont think my friends would approve of it, it will lead to you know... complications".

[shiv]

OT:
Shiv saar, After visiting some temples around Rajasthan and MP (the ones that were left alone by the invading Islamic Barbarians), I have come to the conclusion that it was ok for some physical contact between men and women back in the pre-islamic days. Touching in a respectable manner was ok.

Infact a single trip to Khajuraho will make it clear that something clearly happened between then and now for so much sexual segregation to occur in India.

Lokesh I think the Kama Sutra and Khajuraho (and many other temples) have been misinterpreted to assume more than what might have existed in terms of day to day social interaction. Indians fuk like anyone else and enjoy it. But Indian society does not cheerfully permit the physical touching of men and women without sexual intent as a matter of cultural preference. Touching a woman is assault. Police videos where a woman is held and pulled by a male police officer in the US would be seen as assault in India. There is no cultural history of unrelated Indian men and women touching each other without sexual intent. As long as sexual intent is there the touching is fine. I don not touch my friends wives. Period. This holds true through most of India. Touching is indicative of sexual intent. In the US if there is sexual intent when all men and women touch, it is carefully hidden behind a veil of permissiveness that is accepted socially as "nonsexual touch". There is no concept of nonsexual touch between sexually capable men and women in India.

[member_22733]

^^ Could be. I have very limited knowledge in these areas of sexuality and pre-islamic India. I am not saying you are wrong, but just that the "culture" we have of today has been heavily influenced by successive invasions and it does need some reform. Again, its not a judgement call by comparing the west and the east and saying the west is better. The west and India both need reforms, we both need to understand why things are they way they are and then try and reform it.

The mistake most of the Indian liberal reformist crowd does is to ignore the grass root reformist movements and import some western ideology blindly, without thinking about how those ideas came about and whether it will be applicable verbatim in India. I think the reformist crowd (like pink-chaddi brigade) has done more harm than good in that respect.

Culturally, whatever happened to DK was rape. A few of "loose women" folks in the USofA that I know of regard cavity search as institutional rape. Empathy towards a colored person is usually not a strong point of the USofA, especially true of white people, so instead of 100 people speaking up foR DK we have 1 speaking up and the other 99 saying that she deserved it and the "law" was followed to the letter.

[shiv]

^^ Could be. I have very limited knowledge in these areas of sexuality and pre-islamic India. I am not saying you are wrong, but just that the "culture" we have of today has been heavily influenced by successive invasions and it does need some reform.

I have heard this. But I think Islam cannot be blamed for the cultural practices of south India where women are even more reluctant to be touched by unrelated men (unless they allow it voluntarily in a sexual sense) while not covering themselves up the way women in the North, especially Rajasthan and Punjab were forced to do by Islamic influences. Islam never dominated the south in that way and there are no cultural precedents of unrelated men touching women in folklore although folklore is full of fuklore in which rampant sexual liaisons and adultery/premarital sex occur. Laying a hand upon another man's woman is a no no and is neither prudery nor Islamic. If Islamic people did that they simply took it to another level, but I would not subvert any original Indian ideas in this regard to the story that it was all forced upon us by our rulers the Muslims.

I believe this is an Indian cultural trait - again simply branded as hypocrisy by people who wish to claim that men and women can touch each other without sexual intent. The topic now goes out of the scope for this thread.

[JE Menon]

^^yes, it is going OT. The subject is interesting, nevertheless, so perhaps a separate thread may be required (or may be there's a suitable existing one) in one of the forums. I read an interesting book by a Jeannine something or other some years ago, about social conventions and mores in pre-Islamic India; a very empathetically written work, with a lot of well researched detail. Unfortunately I don't have that book with me where I am, to quote it, but it was truly fascinating. What Shiv has said about "sexual touch" and "non-sexual touch" is very valid. Just a different social evolutionary vector I suppose with interesting results... and quite gratifying ones too, one might say.

Separately, and not referring to above post, but of a few posts above... Generally, it is better not to stereotype Indian men or Western women (or anybody else - I pick on those because it has been happening above)... If we go down that route, the only thing that will be harmed is the forum. That will be strongly deterred.

[saumitra_j]

Mr S Jaishankar in TOI

Ambassador Subrahmanyam Jaishankar said that India would see a decision to restrict certain temporary visas for skilled workers as a sign that the US economy is becoming less open for business. We think this is actually going to be harmful to us. It would be harmful to the American economy and, frankly, it would be harmful to the relationship between the two countries, Jaishankar told AFP in an interview

Jaishankar said he was "very surprised" by Hatch's remarks and charged that the pharmaceutical industry was driving criticism of India, with few complaints about intellectual property rights in other sectors........I would very honestly describe it as scare-mongering tactics and, frankly, I don't think it's helpful," he said. "If there is an expectation that by doing this, we are setting ourselves up for a serious conversation, I think someone's got something wrong"

Jaishankar said that Indians "disagree strongly" with the US treatment of Khobragade, who returned to India under a deal after an indictment, but played down the impact on overall ties.

[RKumar]

Can someone find out what is happening with extra privileges which were offered to US embassy people?
Did we reduced those or we already forgot?
Did US embassy provided financial and employment documents ? If yes, did we followed and reviewed those documents?
What is the latest status of import licences?
What is the latest status of embassy cafeteria, swimming pool and golf club etc etc?

[shiv]

EDIT: But with so much going against Indian men (what with vegetarian rapist and all) your statement does not reflect the truth as far as Indian men are concerned. Thinking process almost goes like this (gathered from informal survey of GHQ's friends): "French and the British men... oh yeah.... But 'Asians' and 'Indians'..... ummm I dont think my friends would approve of it, it will lead to you know... complications".

The point that comes to mind is that for Indians, a people who do not believe that it is appropriate for a man to lay a hand on a woman in public, the act of stripping her and cavity searching her is deeply offensive. Notwithstanding the completely idiotic anal-ysis that Indians were offended because an elite class woman was arrested, Indian indignation was because a woman was violated in a manner that is unacceptable to Indian sensitivities.

What makes Preet Bharara's attitude more contemptible is that the man has no trouble recalling his childhood in India and relative poverty - so he must know that in India women are not to be treated this way. His describing the treatment as routine only indicates that he is desperately clinging on to his Uncle Tom status.

What is even more surprising is that American women who have been needlessly violated and cavity searched are not getting together to protest. Either they all think like Uncle Tom Bharara that it is fine and dandy to have a cavity search for no offence or they are scared and intimidated by the law in the US and are unable to organize effectively.

Which is it? Do American women think such treatment is acceptable? If they do it means that they have no problem with having their genitalia violated with little reason. How likely is that? What's up in the land of the free?

[Shreeman]

Which is it? Do American women think such treatment is acceptable? If they do it means that they have no problem with having their genitalia violated with little reason. How likely is that? What's up in the land of the free?

Ok, let us take an informal poll. Who here resides in the land of the free and knows (or knew) someone personally who had been cavity searched by law enforcement, and they were not an inmate. Given the prison population all the inmates (and visiting relatives) have been searched many times, so lets leave them aside.

Ayes = 1
Nays = 0

Add to it. Sorry, couldn't resist the joke. It is not a big deal at all. You want to know how the deported are sent home, often by commercial airlines? That is fun too.

PS: California and its three strikes law/if you interacted with any Californians long enough, you know someone.

[Lalmohan]

a few weeks back, christine fair tweeted about a woman arrested in the US who had a weapon concealed in a body cavity with the tag line 'now you know why we cavity search people in the US'; which one can interpret as support for the policy

[UlanBatori]

On this fine topic, may I point out a simple observation? These personal searches etc are SUPPOSED TO BE (can't be sure, and of course YouTubeIs400%genuine videos say otherwise) done by ppl of same gender (Jolly, gay, happy, but same gender). That's what is done at the airport, that's what Indian airports do (pat-down, I mean, they've only now started practicing the American version for American diplomats). That's what I THINK occurred in this case. No worse than visit to doctor's office, except for the completely needless and abusive nature of this.

In answer to the other pooch: In Ulan Bator Gobi Fertile Valley salt mines Center for Re-Education Through Rest and Reflection, working hours are 12:01AM - 11:59PM. Sundin through Saturdin. Just like for poor A-3 nanny in Indian Consul rejidantj. (YAAAAAWWWNNNN!)

[TSJones]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html