India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Shreeman]

No worse than visit to doctor's office, except for the completely needless and abusive nature of this.
In answer to the other pooch: .....

Leaves a mark for a lifetime. Ask some one who has undergone it.

Other aspect -- much hairloss will rejult, if any is left by now, that ij.

TSJ -- Many of the 1.x B people believe cow urine has medicinal properties. This is supposed to scare them?

[UlanBatori]

Ah! So the threat is: prosecute American criminals anywhere for blatant tax-evasion, deliberate fraud, in-ur-face memos to employees telling them to violate the law, and WE'll harass and cavity-search ppl here on cooked-up flimsy charges. There is, after all, a looong history of experience:

1. Driving 36mph in a 35mph zone
2. Jaywalking
3. Misspelling on an Official Form submitted under penalty of perjury
....

[CRamS]

Looking at India US relations nose dive with each passing day (latest being this visa BS), I am reminded of Swami Sachidandaswamy's speech here several months ago. In his long address, he said that if a husband really loves his wife, then even if her rice is cooked with stones, it appears tasty to the adoring husband, while if the husband inherently despises his wife, then he will even complain of stones in curd (yogurt) .

Point being that as Kinwal SibalJi pointed out, this India US strategic relations BS was artificial hype trotted out by US to mold India to suit its interests. When India (wife) started taking the relationship too seriously, the contempt US (husband) had in the first place has to started to manifest in the custodial rape of DK, and other issues cropping up each day.

One of the main issues on which both sides are seething with anger over each other is AfPak IMO. As AfPak draws closer, US would actually like this relationship to falter so it gives them a sort of "legitimate" reason to accede to more of TSP's demands, by casting India as an "unreliable ally". Recall all the condescending NYT/WaPo editorials on how US was bending over backwards but India was not reciprocating.

India US relations are analogous to the above dysfunctional husband wife relationship where the wife wants to hold on, but husband wants some reason to dump her.

[member_22733]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html

What now, big pharma has screwed most poor americans (which consisted around 50 - 100 million uninsured before ACA got enacted). Now they want to screw with us turd worlders too, because hey, the medicines we make are for people from west onlee, not for turd-worlders like Injuns. Hypocrisy is that the US is all big on charity, and when Indian pharma is doing the real work of charity by making medicines affordable to poor Americans (1/3rd of the USofA), you guys are throwing fits. But by now you guys are so jaded with your sense of moral uprightness that what you are doing wont seem to be hypocrisy to you

Talk about taking revenge US style which follows the following algorithm very loosely:

If you want to take revenge on a particular neighbor you hate:

1) Find a good fight dog who is trained to bite at anything, including you.
2) Set dog loose on neighborhood.
3) The dog goes crazy and bites everyone around.
4) In the midst of getting bitten all over, hope and pray that the particular neighbor also got bitten.
5) If neighbor got bitten claim victory, it does not matter that the dog made scrambled eggs out of your testicles.
6) If possible try to kill the dog, if the dog is too big to kill then make the dog someone elses problem.

Maybe this should be x-posted on Positive news

[chaanakya]

Gosh, I'm begining to sound like a street barker standing outside a New Orleans strip club.

Nothing new, after a while mask starts fading away and the reality shows up.

[rgsrini]

India warns US of consequences on visa reform

Shree Jaishankar on a roll. [respects]. Very refreshing to see such clarity and articulation from Indian babus.

Ambassador Subrahmanyam Jaishankar said that India would see a decision to restrict certain temporary visas for skilled workers as a sign that the US economy is becoming less open for business.

"We think this is actually going to be harmful to us. It would be harmful to the American economy and, frankly, it would be harmful to the relationship" between the two countries, Jaishankar told AFP in an interview.

"Once I feel I'm not getting a fair deal, I am less responsive to the concerns of the other party. Then tomorrow if an American company comes and says, 'You know, we've got this set of problems,' the temptation for me is to say, 'I'm out for lunch,'" he said.

Jaishankar said he was "very surprised" by Hatch's remarks and charged that the pharmaceutical industry was driving criticism of India, with few complaints about intellectual property rights in other sectors.

India has a major generic drug industry that produces cheaper copycat versions of life-saving branded medicines. But Jaishankar said it was incorrect to suggest that a "huge number of patents" was under threat.

"I would very honestly describe it as scare-mongering tactics and, frankly, I don't think it's helpful," he said. "If there is an expectation that by doing this, we are setting ourselves up for a serious conversation, I think someone's got something wrong."

"Affordable health care is the number one issue in the United States. There is almost a presumption here that what is a legitimate concern for Americans should not be a legitimate concern for Indians," he said.

TSJ... That second quote may indirectly answer your "Just business. Go ahead and prosecute AES" mildly wielded threat. US pharmas are scared s.it of the cheaper alternatives coming out of India. India has already cornered a major portion of the "turd world" market and slowly gaining market share in "developed" world that is increasingly unable to afford their medication. Let us not even get into medical tourism here. The governments world over are beginning to ask, "when there is a perfectly good drug (Indian) available in the market for one 100th of a price, why should I buy the drug from the US or Europe".

That is why "interested parties" in the US and Europe are working overtime to discredit Indian pharma industry. The attacks are going to increase dramatically, whether we prosecute AES or not. Indian government and Indian Pharma needs to wake up. We have only heard the FDA side of the story in the recent Ranbaxy incident. We haven't heard Ranbaxy's side. Communication is lacking. Indian Pharma, Government and media needs to play a role in publishing Indian side of the story, not only in India, but all over the world (especially in the developing world). We have to go on the offensive and publish all that is being done to ensure quality in India, and continue to publish it for a long time, periodically. We should reject (if it happens onlee, saar) some US/Europe made medicine on account of quality issues (there will always be packaging issues, transportation issues, or documentation issues), and put them on the defensive, for starter.

[chaanakya]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html

Did we ask your advice ??

[member_28380]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html

What the AES and US diplomats and their spouses have indulged in India IS MASSIVE FRAUD as in publishing a hand out asking to lie about visa status, violating tax laws and running industrial scale highly profitable illegal business activities at the US embassy.

You are comparing Apples and oranges to put it mildly. There are moral, philosophical issues involved in challenging the mind boggling profiteering of Big Pharma. This is not a simple case of “fraud”.
India lacks the infrastructure of massive legal corruption available in the US. Certainly there are huge costs involved in developing drugs, but the profiteering exceeds way beyond the costs involved. Due to heavy lobbying (legally sanctioned corruption) Big Pharma is playing a big role in escalating health care costs.

The entire Pharma industry is based on this profiteering in US market. Actually the escalating health care costs is the biggest factor that undermines US business competitiveness. Even other developed countries the medications cost A LOT LESS than in the US, simply because the US govt officials are all on the pay roll of Big Pharma.

The duration of patent protections are artificially increased to continue profiteering. Many in the West and the third word are cheering the Indian Pharma industries for challenging the western drug companies.

[arun]

Statement for the Record
Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
James R. Clapper
Director of National Intelligence
January 29, 2014 …………………………………….

India

In this election year in particular, coalition politics and institutional challenges will remain the primary drivers of India’s economic and foreign policy decisionmaking. Any future government installed after the 2014 election will probably have a positive view of the United States, but future legislation or policy changes that are consistent with US interests is not assured.

• Coalition politics will almost certainly dominate Indian governance. Since the 1984 national elections, no party has won a clear majority in the lower house of Parliament. We judge that this trend will continue with the 2014 election, and the proliferation of political parties will further complicate political consensus building.

• In 2014, India will probably attain a 5 percent average annual growth rate, significantly less than the 8 percent growth that it achieved from 2005 to 2012 and that is needed to achieve its policy goals.

India shares US objectives for a stable and democratic Pakistan that can encourage trade and economic integration between South and Central Asia. We judge that India and Pakistan will seek modest progress in minimally controversial areas, such as trade, while probably deferring serious discussion on territorial disagreements and terrorism.

India will continue to cooperate with the United States on the future of Afghanistan following the drawdown of international forces. India also shares concerns about a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan, seeing it as a long-term security threat and source of regional instability.

India and China have attempted to reduce long-standing border tensions through confidence-building measures, such as holding the first bilateral military exercise in five years in November 2013 and signing a Border Defense Cooperation Agreement during Prime Minister Singh’s visit to China in October 2013. However, mutual suspicions will likely persist.

From here:

Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community

[TSJones]

Statement for the Record
Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
James R. Clapper
Director of National Intelligence
January 29, 2014 …………………………………….

India

In this election year in particular, coalition politics and institutional challenges will remain the primary drivers of India’s economic and foreign policy decisionmaking. Any future government installed after the 2014 election will probably have a positive view of the United States, but future legislation or policy changes that are consistent with US interests is not assured.

• Coalition politics will almost certainly dominate Indian governance. Since the 1984 national elections, no party has won a clear majority in the lower house of Parliament. We judge that this trend will continue with the 2014 election, and the proliferation of political parties will further complicate political consensus building.

• In 2014, India will probably attain a 5 percent average annual growth rate, significantly less than the 8 percent growth that it achieved from 2005 to 2012 and that is needed to achieve its policy goals.

India shares US objectives for a stable and democratic Pakistan that can encourage trade and economic integration between South and Central Asia. We judge that India and Pakistan will seek modest progress in minimally controversial areas, such as trade, while probably deferring serious discussion on territorial disagreements and terrorism.

India will continue to cooperate with the United States on the future of Afghanistan following the drawdown of international forces. India also shares concerns about a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan, seeing it as a long-term security threat and source of regional instability.

India and China have attempted to reduce long-standing border tensions through confidence-building measures, such as holding the first bilateral military exercise in five years in November 2013 and signing a Border Defense Cooperation Agreement during Prime Minister Singh’s visit to China in October 2013. However, mutual suspicions will likely persist.

From here:

Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community

Yes, and that doesn't even include trackin' down them lyin', cheatin', teachers either! All 20 or 30 of 'em. Maybe.

[member_22733]

Someone somewhere has clearly got a raw nerve touched

[UlanBatori]

News. Wake up and read at the end.

IMO, clear, clear pointers to the malicious propaganda agenda.

Yes, and that doesn't even include trackin' down them lyin', cheatin', teachers either! All 20 or 30 of 'em. Maybe.

What impresses me is that of the 20 TEACHERS in a high-priced school, not one had the ethics or the guts to stand up and say: "NO, THIS IS UNETHICAL, ILLEGAL, AND STUPID". Yup! An education DEFINITELY worth $40k/yr!! This is nearly as good as Harvard (Scoff)Law School or Bijnej School.

[saip]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html

As if that will make any difference. Congress and US govt are in cahoots with big pharma. That is is the only reason I can think of why Americans pay obscenely high prices for their medications. Medicare is prohibited by congress from bargaining with the big pharma for reasons only the congress and their lobbyist friends would know. I can understand if only generics are cheaper in India but even the brand name medications are cheaper. Like one medication I take costs me $50 in copay for three months supply and my insurance company is billed $900 for the same which would mean if I were on Medicare would put me right in the middle of the infamous doughnut hole making me liable to pay the entire cost of the medicine in the fourth quarter. The price for the same medicine in India is $60 and it is not made in India but imported. Who is benefiting from this high cost of medicines? Definitely not Americans. Americans and Medicare are bring robbed blind by the big pharma.

The Big pharma has been pushing the govt to punish India because Indian companies dared to make cheaper drugs so that its citizens (and those in Africa too) could benefit. Whether AES is prosecuted or not (which by right should be prosecuted not only for breaking Indian laws but it also should be prosecuted in the USA for being an accessory to breaking our laws too) has nothing to do with Big pharma pressuring the US Govt to punish India.

[shiv]

a few weeks back, christine fair tweeted about a woman arrested in the US who had a weapon concealed in a body cavity with the tag line 'now you know why we cavity search people in the US'; which one can interpret as support for the policy

Interesting.

Now what if a woman hijacker did that? Why not cavity search all women at the airport. The answer is that airports use other methods.

Why can't jails use those other methods? It seems to me that the act of violating people physically is part of the process of intimidating them and shaming them. The US, it appears is about enforcing law rather than keeping law and order. There is a difference. Enforcing laws is to intimidate and punish many innocent people to pick up every violation. Keeping law and order is to be more discriminating, leaving "enforcement" to more serious violations.

The US used to be like that - but after 9-11 they have gone overboard.

[shiv]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html

What is the US going to do? Cavity search Sonia Gandhi? India will give its people drugs at prices they can afford. Every Tom, Dick and Harry is on some US "watch list" or the other. The US is finally beginning to learn from. Al Qaeda, Taliban and North Korea and the Former Soviet Union. Those entities used to or still do keep every American on their "watch list". Big deal.

[saip]

If Sonia Gandhi were cavity searched not many would have bothered and the Americans might have found a few million dollars hidden.

[member_22733]

Shiv,

unFair motorma is saying that because she has never experienced a cavity search. Infact until recently white women like her never used to getting roughed up like that by the cops or the "law enforcement". The other factor is: the "conform with the power structure" behavior which means no matter what atrocities are heaped on the victim by the institution, a member of the institution never ever questions it and always support it.

[TSJones]

no need to worry there jingos, this is just business, go ahead and prosecute AES:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/big-pharm ... 31997.html

What is the US going to do? Cavity search Sonia Gandhi? India will give its people drugs at prices they can afford. Every Tom, Dick and Harry is on some US "watch list" or the other. The US is finally beginning to learn from. Al Qaeda, Taliban and North Korea and the Former Soviet Union. Those entities used to or still do keep every American on their "watch list". Big deal.

I said it was just bidness. Show us some spine. Kick some teacher's butts! Put the fear of Allah into us.

[chaanakya]

Put the fear of Allah into us.

Pakis , Afganis , Iranis are doing fine job of that. Why do you need another one? Ohh I see Vietnam happened long time back. Need baby boomers?

[Amber G.]

TSJ, UB et al -
Since you guys are interested, something caught my eye - Minister of State for External Affairs E Ahamed said that MEA has received a complaint from one Aparna Srivastava alleging forced termination of employment from her post as Political Specialist at the US Embassy in New Delhi in October 2012.
... "In accordance with existing international laws and practices, Ministry of External Affairs has asked the US Embassy in New Delhi to undertake an urgent investigation into the allegations made by Srivastava,"
(Srivastava has alleged that she was victimised by the US Embassy for her independent views on the reporting of the human rights situation in India)

Here is the story from current news..(as AS has now gone public)
researcher with US Embassy, Aparna Srivastava takes steps against US diplomat

NEW DELHI: Former researcher with the US Embassy Aparna Srivastava, who was unceremoniously dismissed and forced to sign a resignation letter by her employer has alleged that she was thrown out, as she was not toeing the diktats of the US government. It has been over a year since Srivastava was dismissed. But she decided to go public to narrate her ordeal in the light of Devyani Khobragade episode.

Srivastava, an expert on human rights issues ..

Srivastava alleged that she was dismissed, as she was not following the diktats of her superior, Stacy Pearce (the American Diplomat), under whom she worked in the human rights section since she was employed at the Embassy in July 2012.

"Stacy wanted me to write reports on human rights issue in a fashion that would suit interests of the US government in India. But this is unethical and distortion of the facts," she noted. "I was dismissed on the grounds ....
<snip>

[TSJones]

That's it. I'm done. It's getting past the point of ridiculous. I need to take a break.

[member_22733]

TSJ,

You Americans are great and you can get away with committing felony in India without any consequences. You win. There is nothing to gloat over here. If you consider history, you guys have gotten away with slavery, genocide and war profiteering without any consequences and that too for crimes that directly or indirectly resulted in anything upward of more than 10 million lives lost. So this is nothing big, compared to the scale of what US can do.

Please do us a favor and take this nonsense to somewhere like stormfront.

[saip]

As some one famously said " It is better to be thought a fool than open your mouth (or write) and remove all doubt!"

[ramana]

TSJ,
While taking a break reflect on your tone of posting. Many posters felt intimidated by your tone and past behavior of wishing some people met with accidents.
As and when you come back it might be good for you to show us that reflection.

Thanks, ramana

[rgsrini]

^^LokeshC,
It is all in communication saar. If you notice one thing, the US and west in general have even managed to project that the technology that leaves you with "unwashed ass.es" is somehow more modern, cleaner and something to aspire for, than the poor SDRE "washed ones".

[chaanakya]

That's it. I'm done. It's getting past the point of ridiculous. I need to take a break.

Sure , but avoid Dreamliner.

[member_22733]

^^LokeshC,
It is all in communication saar. If you notice one thing, the US and west in general have even managed to project that the technology that leaves you with "unwashed ass.es" is somehow more modern, cleaner and something to aspire for, than the poor SDRE "washed ones".

OT and TMI unwashed ass.es was a culture shock to me when I arrived in the US. It still is and it is something that I will never get used to ..... I end up installing a bidet or a Japanese toilet to wherever I move. I also keep a ton of moist wipes with me all the time.

[shiv]

I said it was just bidness. Show us some spine. Kick some teacher's butts! Put the fear of Allah into us.

That is actually funny. The US is behaving like the most scared nation on earth now. Afraid of external threats. Internal threats. Afraid of Iranian weapons. Syria and Al Qaeda. North Korea. China.Taliban. Indian drug companies. Every damn thing on earth.

And you ask for more fear? No that ain't possible.

The US actually needs to chill out. The world is not that bad. You guys have a massive complex and need some serious therapy.

[UlanBatori]

In Ulan Bator ppl "go" Indian-American ishtyle: go in the fields by the side of the Slik Road, but take today's copy of the UlanBator Daily News, Journal and Constipation along.

[member_22733]

^^^ Shiv saar,

Three resources any Indian should get to know in order to understand America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_world_syndrome --> There is a documentary but i lost the link

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/culture-of-fear/

and a related book:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Culture-Fear- ... B003R4ZBR8

[member_22733]

UlanBatori ji,

Some American and Oiropeans are coming around of Ulan Batori and Indian ishtyle of relieving themselves:

http://www.squattypotty.com/sitting-cau ... s/1516.htm

As a satisfied user, I request everyone to squat. You can get your morning workout plus get something done at the same time.

[shiv]

TSJ,

You Americans are great and you can get away with committing felony in India without any consequences. You win. There is nothing to gloat over here. If you consider history, you guys have gotten away with slavery, genocide and war profiteering without any consequences and that too for crimes that directly or indirectly resulted in anything upward of more than 10 million lives lost. So this is nothing big, compared to the scale of what US can do.

Please do us a favor and take this nonsense to somewhere like stormfront.

It's OK LokeshC. Americans in India get diarrhea, dysentery, amebiasis, malaria, dengue, heat stroke, fleas, they also get cheated and hoodwinked even while there is no toilet paper and not enough toilets. And not much protein. Plenty of skinny vegetarian rapists, and overwhelming smells and dust. So we're even, in a way.

One of the more unfunny stories I heard recently was a young relative of mine who picked up hepatitis ("A" variety) in India and went to California. The doc there had never seen it and started panicking at the blood test reports and started talking about his possibly needing a liver transplant. That felt like a cavity search for his parents back here in India. Luckily sense prevailed and this totally self limiting condition simply resolved with supportive treatment as it almost invariably does.

[sanjaykumar]

Anecdotal evidence is fundamentally unfair. I had a case of a child with cervical adenopathy and atypical lymphocytosis recommended for a bone marrow biospy in an Indian hospital.

[rgsrini]

^^sanjaykumar,
But we don't go around stomping that we are the sooperpower and we are sooperior with extraordinary quality standards and sooper dooper schools, training, systems and processes saar. We are SDRE onlee. We can afford to make mistakes, and it is expected of us.

Anyway, the point of the post, if I get it correctly ,is that US is no different than any other country. People are people every where. They have mostly the same aspirations in life at a fundamental level. They also make mistakes everywhere. In every society there are good people, greedy people, lazy people, unclean people, rapists, child molestors and all other varieties you can think of. It is no different.

To scream at the top of your lungs that only you are so amazing, and everyone else in turd world is either slave owner (or slaves), or cheats, rapists, do not care about quality, dirty, weak is just nonsense. US need to wake up and smell the steaming pile of sh.it it leaves around by this behaviour. That is the point of the post above, and also the "positive news" thread.

[rgsrini]

^^

In Ulan Bator ppl "go" Indian-American ishtyle: go in the fields by the side of the Slik Road, but take today's copy of the UlanBator Daily News, Journal and Constipation along.

Saar. I thought it is snowing now in UB. I assume UBwallas put the snow to good use...

[Vayutuvan]

I often see Africans/blacks in USA gravitate towards Indians due to some kind of expectation/feeling of "brotherhood"....maybe Ombaba has the same mentality.

The source of the affinity between african-american elites and PIO elites is something else, me thinks. Lower strata African-Americans actually consider PIOs as a threat to their upward mobility. Since Women, African-Americans, Hispanics, PIOs, and I suppose far easterners like Koreans, Vietnamese, Chinese are considered underrepresented minorities , anu majority minority owned companies Can get 8A status. Most federal projects have a requirement at least 10% (IIRC) needs to be sourced from 8A companies.
---

Changing gear a little to Pharma.

Right now Bioengineering is one of the up and coming disciplines in US and entry into this undergrad major is hotly contested. With a BS in Bioengineering, kids can go to either engg. or medicine. Most kids now a days want to hedge their bets because the outlook for CS and EE - two areas with the highest salaries $62K and $58K right now for my alma mater grads - is poor due to threat of outsourcing and in case of CS the discipline is reaching maturity thus the growth rate is going to flatten out. Most engineering BSs get salaries more than other non-engineering disciplines. At the same time there is great flexibility in US education system (unlike European or Indian which is based on UK system) in that kids can switch to other majors with not a lot of difficulty. Usually it is easier to switch to other disciplines within the same college. For example if a student with EE declared major feels at the end of two years that it is not her cuppa she can change to Aeronautics or even Agricultural Engg (even though the latter could be in college of Agriculture) or into College of Liberal Arts and Sciences which includes Mathematics, Chemistry and Biology majors. Physics is sometimes in College of Engg. and sometimes in LAS. If she gets interested in some other major in an unrelated college (for example a Math major from LAS gets interested in Econ which is part of College of Commerce), then she can spend an extra year and get a dual degree. Different universities have differing levels of flexibility but it would not be a generalization to say that even the least flexible university is lot more flexibile than the most flexible institutes - IISC and BITS pilani come to mind - of India. Chemical, Nuclear, Materials engg. also pay quite well.

A BS is a just a basic degree to go up inj the value chain. Say for example a person with a BS in Bioengg., can go into MBA in health care (hospital management), medico legal profession (ambu-chasers), Bioethics, Psychology counseling, MS in public health, pharma R&D of course (which has the potential of employing large number of highly qualified people in GMO companies, agriculture, Animal Husbandry, and other Bio science areas like conservation, ecology, pollution management, allergies).

US is simply protecting the standard of living of their citizens. There are some hiccups here and there due to incompetence, ideology, and personal egos. The last invariably boils down to popularity which boils down to the ability to garner votes at the hustings. So it is politics and various constituencies are pulling at the issue of the DCG affair, human traffikin, etc. from various sides.

[member_28434]

Amit writes:

you don't need to have brown skin to have empathy with India just as a brown skin does not automatically ensure empathy towards desh.

Obviously. Where did I state otherwise?

I was contradicting your statement that Gupta was American and was treated as an American would have been.

I think not.

His position at McKinsey and his role in the liberalization of the Indian economy flowed out of his being an Indian and being perceived as an Indian

He identified culturally as Indian and had predominantly Indian friends.

Amit writes:

Coming back to Gupta and Rajaratnam, one needs to remember that they are at the end of the day citizens of their country and they made a conscious decision to play by the Amir Khan rules and they made a lot money by playing by those rules.

Again, that's a very vague generalization. And somewhat inaccurate, in my humble opinion.

Rajaratham did not play by the rules at all. He ran quite outside US law, overtly bribing people to reveal privileged information, using all kinds of shady methods.

It's arguable that one of his motivations for doing that was precisely because he, like Gupta, was a complete outsider and wasn't getting treated like others in a place dominated by Anglos and Jews.

To make it really big, he was forced to play outside the rules.

But even if you don't buy that as a reason for what he did, it's certainly a reason for his fostering a separate South Asian financial network. He had to do that because he wasn't part of the WASP or Jewish network.

A third aspect of his outsider status is that as an outsider to the Anglo world, his violation of the rules always had an element of "payback against the whites."

A final point against your argument that "he's just another American" Raj himself made very negative comments about the Indians who were part of his network, contrasting them unfavorably with Lankans. He not only saw himself as South Asian, as opposed to Westerners, he also saw himself as Lankan, as opposed to Indian....yet, he was also one of the first to help with Gupta's Indian philanthropy (whatever you think about that).

That's one reason Gupta turned to him for advice on finance.

So Raj's ethnicity (and identification as an ethnic) played a role in 4-5 different ways.
Same with Gupta.

Amit writes:

Gupta is a multi-millionaire - at least before his arrest. Rajaratnam of course is a billionaire. They made the money playing the system and got taken by the system.

No. They both outwitted the system and were taken down for outwitting it.

Gupta was tripped up for allegedly insider-trading on Goldman Sachs, even though it's not clear he ever did.

What is clear is that Goldman Sachs is in the business of insider trading, for a living! Yet, another Goldman director Byron Trott profited from insider knowledge and nothing was done about that.

He was American (WASP). So, again, the "they're all Americans" argument doesn't wash.


Amit writes:

I'd say if Gupta didn't have close friends in Goldman that's his bad, he shouldn't have been on the board. He certainly had a lot of good friends in McKinsey who helped him reach the top there.

Goldman's culture was a trading culture and traders are the big shots (and the most corrupt players) in it.

Gupta wasn't a trader, but a manager. Traders and managers are at odds with each other in many ways on Wall Street.

Gupta was on the board of directors at Goldman only for a couple of years, long after Goldman's heyday, not in any way a part of the team like Blankfein.

So it's natural he didn't have friends there.

McKinsey is a consulting firm and deals with managers. It's a different world and Gupta had been in that world for decades.

Bottom line, the whole prosecution had nothing to do with his personal attributes. It had everything to do with his being Indian, being prominent in liberalizing India, and being Manmohan Singh's blue-eyed boy.

His prosecution was a clear, targeted attack on a certain sector of India.

Amit writes:

All this comes back to the point I'm making. Why is it that we expect that folks who have given up Indian citizenship and made a new life for themselves in another land (mind you I have no grudges against that) should somehow be beholden to Bharat and constantly show their gratitude?

Where did I say anything about people having to be beholden to Bharat?

However, if someone was educated in India at public expense, or very cheaply (in relative terms), and then made a lot of money, I don't see why there shouldn't be an expectation that he or she gives something back. It's the decent thing to do.

What's wrong with expecting people to behave decently to their own motherland?
Is that a crime?

Can't you safe-guard genuine American interests and also advance genuine Indian interests at the same time, without being unpatriotic or treacherous to either country?

Regarding Ulan Batori's point about the American India Foundation (I corrected the name in my earlier post, thanks), perhaps he is right and it's a purely self-interested group.

That's beside the point though, even though I think raising money for the earthquake victims is something that shows that Gupta was philanthropic, at least to some degree.

The main point is Gupta had a prominent public persona as an Indian and was seen to have it.
He was a hero of the middle-class business school crowd.
That made him a target.

And that's my thesis.

Not that he was a saint or a sinner or as good or bad as one of your friends, who's white.

His public persona is all I am discussing here and all I can discuss.

His inner spiritual life, morals, and character are beyond my ability to judge. And yours too, I imagine.

[ramana]

UB et al, Spot the Richards connection!!!!

US points to Russia as diplomats conversation posted on Web-NYT

[ramana]

NYT reports ;Cyberabad's swagger returns as native son takes over Microsoft

Can you stand the hyperbole!!!

[Vayutuvan]

The above article mentions ISB in whose setup Rajat Gupta played an important role, IIRC.

The hyperbole in that articl-e is sickening - starting from HPS morning to what Mr. Khan says -

To Mr. Khan, Mr. Nadella has achieved legendary status already, likening him to one of India’s great modern-day heroes.

“His success will inspire the young and an entire industry. Make no mistake: He is software’s Sachin Tendulkar,” he said.

Year 2020 would be when Hyderabad-e-aam should celebrate if MS were to be still a force to be reckoned with.