Indian IT Industry

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 04 Feb 2014 15:36

subhamoy.das wrote: ....Heck, my father , who is a civil engineer, can get work even at the age of 75 and i think that i will be blessed if i can reach 50 and still have a job!

well said!!!!

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Feb 2014 02:12

^ Actually factually it is not true; fact is it is far more easy to get into ITVTY than any other industry the thousands of people who switch to this area are a testimony to this, this is not limited to just India but even to USA. Catch is at age of 50+ people will be willing to hire you only if you bring something to the table which a 30 year old cannot and it could be knowledge or may be willingness to work at a lower wage . The reason why someone in civil engg or architecture might still get good work at age of 50+ in India is because there are simply not many people in that field the demand and supply curve is more evened out there and there is a reason for it i.e. not many stick to that trade for so long not unless you are in a Govt PSU or have good connections.

For all the bad vibe which ITVTY gets in India , we have to concede one thing that this sector is an equal opportunity employer as against the brick and mortar jobs where lot of work comes via bhai-bandhugiri and jaan pehchaan i.e. if you are an architect or civil Engg working for say Sobha or even with say L&T only then you stand a chance of getting a job or like in most cases a lot of civil engineers tend to come from families with construction background otherwise there are so many architects and civil engineers who are struggling to make ends meet .

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 05 Feb 2014 13:19

Interesting collection of raw data on Indian IT exports. Only upto 2012-13, when exports totaled $75 billion:
Software export data

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 05 Feb 2014 17:52

I get the feeling that IT people in India do not want to become managers and are forced into it. Is this true?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 05 Feb 2014 19:38

KJoishy wrote:I get the feeling that IT people in India do not want to become managers and are forced into it. Is this true?

"Good IT people" do not want to become managers. That's why absolute rubbish makes its way to the top in most places in majority of cases. There are of course places where hands on folks are required, and are put in charge.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2014 20:02

negi said it best - in india, managers have become expeditors and accountants with no background or real knowledge of the components they are supposed to manage. thats because within few yrs they have to do many things rather than sit and build skills with a small team of max 10 people as their counterparts would do abroad.

so in any conversation where the matter turns technical, they are of no consequence, vs their counterparts gora/desi/cheeni in the same co abroad. that manager would likely have been a developer for longer, has a smaller focussed team and been an incumbent on that area for some time without being jerked around and re-orged to the N-th time as desi kshratraps build their empires and "grab more work"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2014 20:12

I joined my current unit 2 yrs ago. I voluntarily changed to a different sub-area after 18 months when work dried up . in last 6 months I am on my second sub-area now. but thats still relatively stable. before my own eyes I have worked for/with not 1, not 2, but 6 managers now (!!), as the rest either shifted internally within and outside the BU and one left the co.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 05 Feb 2014 22:26

I wonder what exactly a IT manager is supposed to do if not be a resource/delivery manager. The nature of the job is like that he cant really devote time for tech/business area of the Project.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 07 Feb 2014 03:19

I feel the main "killer" is not related to work. It is related to trafic, pollution, infrastructure etc. All you need orgenised cities with maintaned green areas. People will be soooo happy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2014 08:15

^ that can be managed. but chaos at work is hard to. in the old days, txfer of any work was a 2 month shadowing process incl a onsite visit.

these days if you are lucky you get a 2 hr TOI over webex and thats it. if unlucky you get a couple of outdated docs and the code.

directors and VPs do not care, all they care is "grabbing more work" so they can continue to build staff here and rise in the org. and neither they can say no if some higher ups thrust more work on them.

the reality in my own exp is everytime ownership is transferred from the original set of developers, knowledge level declines by factor of 0.5.....so by 2nd hop it is 0.25....it often goes to die in the third party units at a level of 0.125 (third hop)

1.0 -> understand the ins and outs, major changes possible
0.5 -> might be able to make some changes and keep it in good health, but nothing major
0.25 -> barely bones support, and pray customers do not discover anything major
0.125 -> follow some debug wiki and run scripted cmds, keep customer in loop until they lose interest, suggest upgrading to latest firmware...

its terrifying when you have the trust and expectations of customers on one hand that we are experts and the reality in the trenches. managers anyways dont know and dont care. they have feature release and bug reduction numbers to meet on XLS.

I really feel bad about this. we are not delivering value, just keeping up a pretense.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 07 Feb 2014 08:32

Singha, I agree.
In my first job at Mota-l@uda, I worked on switch software for Japanese market. They pushed me into a testing team. It was supposed to be temporary but they made it a 13 month thing. We were supposed to test switch features using tcl scripts and some software. The damn thing would be down most of the time due to no fault of ours. Our manager was weak so she would make us work midnight and weekend shifts and not even a word of appreciation. We couldn't make our numbers because the lab was down most of the time but the witch did not care. In the end we got so fed up, we began fudging the test result log and turned FAILs into PASSes. She was euphoric that we made the deadline. Allah knows what happened to the Japaanis using the software.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2014 10:34

^ persistent lack of test hw/sw resources is like a virus even in product based cos here. fixes or even looking into anything gets delayed until the big stick multi-chassis setups are off their 24x7 test usage cycles to be given for a while to developers. the bare bones setups developers have cannot repro complex problems.

I have heard of as many as 70 people having to share UT/IT on a japani NEC switch in a prior co. fortunately I was not in that group.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 08 Feb 2014 08:55

Ha.. phrases like "jumping curve", "speed to market", "quick turnaround time" are actually used to push buggy code to production without even rudimentary testing IMHO.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2014 10:51

motalaura had made a big name for itself in my era with six-sigma thing. they proudly bragged about it in campus interview briefing and the guy said in his last project they had 100,000 test cases. we heathens were suitably impressed.
should have known it was being gamed by insiders by Kjoishy sir

a good friend joined from campus(I was not selected in campus interview) and he said spent a lot of his time in testing around 75%. he said seniors used to browbeat him and make him write small submodules for their code though he was capable of far more.

subhamoy.das · Post by **subhamoy.das** » 08 Feb 2014 18:30

The main problem with software engineering is that the skills can be aquired easily unlike of core engineering like electrical or mechanical. Then there is this talk of having vertical or domain skill in software indusrty which is a position up in the value chain but again it is a skill which has nothing to do with software and a non-software person say a aerospace engineer or a doctor or a hospita supervior has a edge. People who make it big in sw product companies have Phds in domians such as cryoptograhy, network security, big data, enterprise work flows and not in software programming. No matter of software programming experience like web service API, mobile OS API or that matter any other API, will make your experience count more that what u did in last 5 years and every 5 years that API changes and tons of kids read up and become expert in the new APIs. Hence people in software skills quickly move to people management positions in India.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 08 Feb 2014 18:32

KJoishy wrote:I get the feeling that IT people in India do not want to become managers and are forced into it. Is this true?

I feel this is true. Perhaps a few companies may be different. But in the India based IT-Vity Majors (and colonels, and brigs), there is no other way. If you remain purely into coding in 6-7 years you would realise that there is nothing to invent or research upon. This is especially true if you are into application support. So then to secure your position the next option is to move to management side.

Singha wrote:that manager would likely have been a developer for longer, has a smaller focussed team and been an incumbent on that area for some time without being jerked around and re-orged to the N-th time as desi kshratraps build their empires and "grab more work"

Summed it up neatly, my friend

.

Marten wrote:A lot of companies have moved to the twin-manager system where one manages the human aspect and the other the technical aspect. This is supposed to be the delivery/resource manager and functional manager concept. Not sure how these are implemented across the industry.

In IBM I heard this concept is put to use, and it is effective. An advantage is that the resource manager is supposed to focus on admin and people handling tasks (which itself is pretty huge), where as the functional chap focuses on all issues technical. There are people who like technology who do not wish to manage people at all. But in some companies this does not work efficiently purely because of lack of definition on who needs to do what, or trying to mix up the role into one (and reduce people head count).

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 10 Feb 2014 16:51

^ We too have a similar concept but sadly, resource/Admin Manager is considered as some low level Clerk causing people either not to opt for such positions or start looking outside.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 10 Feb 2014 17:32

Was just reading about the current (or is it really??) fad for Agile/Scrum methodology. Now I understand that Scrum is one way of using the Agile methodology (Scrum to Agile = Pine to Tree, I liked this analogy

). And I am sure Scrum would have lots of success stories. Now purely from an Indian IT context, can any one help me understand the below:-
1. Does SCRUM mandate that the team should be really technically sound and have the same level of knowledge? Or the team can have a mix of junior and senior technical people and sprints etc. are based on this. My main worry would be to commit a sprint of 3 weeks, assuming all technical champs are there in the team, while the team consists of very junior folks

.
2. Does the team decide on the length/duration of the sprint? Or is it kind of "enforced". If it is enforced this may soon lead to situation of unrealistic targets getting set and teams literally worked to death. Where as a traditional waterfall model would have its own lean periods and so a kind of balance can be achieved, where as I don't think SCRUM plans for any lean period.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Feb 2014 23:03

Sachin wrote:Was just reading about the current (or is it really??) fad for Agile/Scrum methodology. Now I understand that Scrum is one way of using the Agile methodology (Scrum to Agile = Pine to Tree, I liked this analogy ). And I am sure Scrum would have lots of success stories. Now purely from an Indian IT context, can any one help me understand the below:-
1. Does SCRUM mandate that the team should be really technically sound and have the same level of knowledge? Or the team can have a mix of junior and senior technical people and sprints etc. are based on this. My main worry would be to commit a sprint of 3 weeks, assuming all technical champs are there in the team, while the team consists of very junior folks .

Yes, its better have really sound technical team. The speed of development leaves no time for mentoring. If you have laggards, you'll see issues in the first SPRINT itself.

Sachin wrote: 2. Does the team decide on the length/duration of the sprint? Or is it kind of "enforced". If it is enforced this may soon lead to situation of unrealistic targets getting set and teams literally worked to death. Where as a traditional waterfall model would have its own lean periods and so a kind of balance can be achieved, where as I don't think SCRUM plans for any lean period.

Yes, the team can decide. True, SPRINTS will not provide you with any lean periods. Resource leveling will be a major activity.

Just a closed a project couple of months ago. It was delivered via Agile SCRUM methodology.
I'm no Agile expert, but I can just provide you the first hand experience.

First of all team composition. Team was split across India, Austria and Slovakia.
We had a customer facing project manager (Austrian), SCRUM Master(Austrian...technical project manager for all practical purpose), Architect(Austrian), Product Owner(yours truly...pure product line management).

The project: One of our product (which works for GSM/CDMA networks) to be delivered with enhancements for a GSM-R network for one of the rail operators in Europe.

FWIW.
The positives.
1. You really get to see a running prototypes very soon. Major assumptions are validated very early.
2. Due to continuous feedback loop you'll get a very accurate picture work vs budget issues.
3. Continuous integration testing. Something breaks, you get to know then and there.

The negatives.
1. Architects have a minimal role. Unless there is some oversight mechanism, the end result will be an unmaintainable mess.
2. Daily SCRUM meetings are a waste of time and cause of fist fights. I'd my local chaps clashing with the Slovakians in every meeting for the first 2 SPRINTS (cultural issues...Eastern Europeans seems to lack tact, though quite clean of heart). The SCRUM master has to be very careful and take potential conflict triggers offline.
3. Similar to weakness on architecture issue, system/load testing is also less looked after.

My experience.

I as a product owner had a constant tussle with the SCRUM master. He had use cases to deliver, but for me every use case was to be weighed with a long term view (whether it goes into the core product or remains as an add on for the project). This is a problem because I wanted something that I as the product manager can maintain for next 5-7 years and able to justify those features in the product core, the SCRUM master was happy with a rush job that just works.

Despite all hype about Agile (in our case the customer insisted it) it didn't work. Even after being a participant in the SPRINT end demos the customer still found something to be done differently in the customized bits. It simply negates the whole purpose of going Agile. So, if the customer buys in get him/her to sign off on the use cases delivered.

On the technical front, my team in India never worked with continuous integration before. So, they were surprised that after they checked in their code, there were bug reports already in their mail boxes by the time they reached home. Agile will not work without this infrastructure. Because of time pressure, build and testing has to be automated and it has to be fast.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 10 Feb 2014 23:32

SRoy : thanks for a nice summary and problems faced in a real project using agile methodology.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Feb 2014 23:40

They are all taknikis to get assembly line work of certain quality done on schedule even from a motley crew.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 10 Feb 2014 23:45

A lot of people don't know WTF Agile is and what the benefits are. They just insist on it because everyone else is and some YemBeeYay type convinced them.
It's like in the old days when people just jumped on CORBA and EJBs and Portlets.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 10 Feb 2014 23:59

KJoishy wrote:A lot of people don't know WTF Agile is and what the benefits are. They just insist on it because everyone else is and some YemBeeYay type convinced them..

Misled them and leave them with no options.

All that a lot of people want is some way of incremental software delivery so that they are able to see what's getting built up and how exactly is the budget spent vis-a-vis the features delivered.

When they go the quality department, the MBA educated process Nazis tell them that if they wish to see software bits getting added up to something tangible every couple of weeks, then Agile is the only way to go as per there little book.

Scope of tailoring the process is very few.

A lot of people are not stupid or ignorant and they really understand what Agile is, even if doesn't meet the needs. But they don't have the time to write down and publish a new software development process, getting vetted ityadi.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 11 Feb 2014 00:04

SRoy, it's usually some clueless higher up in the same company who hears this buzzword and orders his chela to implement it IMMEDIATELY so he can gloat to his boss that he is "agile"

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 Feb 2014 04:07

Raja Bose wrote:They are all taknikis to get assembly line work of certain quality done on schedule even from a motley crew.

The route to better margins goes through taking below average (experience wise, not teachability wise) people and get above average work out of them. Since software development is not going to be automated to same extent as assembly line (this is not possible in next three decades at least as there is quite a bit of art in programming/software development mixed in with the science), we would require humans in the loop (especially to look through one-way mirrors at the guinea pigs during UX/UI design

).

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 11 Feb 2014 04:11

KJoishy wrote:A lot of people don't know WTF Agile is and what the benefits are. They just insist on it because everyone else is and some YemBeeYay type convinced them.
It's like in the old days when people just jumped on CORBA and EJBs and Portlets.

and before that everybody and his uncle was developing an expert system (whether it was beneficial or not) and the Japanese MITI fell for it "hook line and sinker". They wasted at least ten years and oodles of resources going after AI while missing the internet revolution.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Feb 2014 09:21

Sachin wrote:Was just reading about the current (or is it really??) fad for Agile/Scrum methodology. Now I understand that Scrum is one way of using the Agile methodology (Scrum to Agile = Pine to Tree, I liked this analogy ). And I am sure Scrum would have lots of success stories. Now purely from an Indian IT context, can any one help me understand the below:-
1. Does SCRUM mandate that the team should be really technically sound and have the same level of knowledge? Or the team can have a mix of junior and senior technical people and sprints etc. are based on this. My main worry would be to commit a sprint of 3 weeks, assuming all technical champs are there in the team, while the team consists of very junior folks .

You don't usually get to pick your scrum team. There will usually be some guys who are junior in any team. Your team decides how much they can tackle.

Sachin wrote:2. Does the team decide on the length/duration of the sprint? Or is it kind of "enforced". If it is enforced this may soon lead to situation of unrealistic targets getting set and teams literally worked to death. Where as a traditional waterfall model would have its own lean periods and so a kind of balance can be achieved, where as I don't think SCRUM plans for any lean period.

What you should do is set the length/duration of the sprint up front (e.g. 2 or 3 weeks or whatever) and the team picks as many tasks off of the backlog that they think they can finish in that duration. Team picks how many tasks, not you. The product owner merely arranges the stories in order of priority, but the team picks up how many stories they think they can finish in that period.

Also, all stake holders should be given to understand that if they add anything to the sprint after it has started, something else is getting kicked out of the current sprint as a result (convincing all stake holders to agree to this is the hard part). If they need something done, it gets added to the backlog with high priority for the next sprint, not the current one.

Final Note: Scrum is not a silver bullet and definitely doesn't work in all situations. There are some very infamous failures as well, that scrum-proponents try their best not to bring up in conversation. Unfortunately, there are a lot of managerial types who believe that simply changing a methodology will change everything -- there is no substitute for good programming talent + a good designer who can architect stuff up front.

As one wag famously put it: "Scrum - a process where one man attempts to push two men up three men's assh0les"

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 11 Feb 2014 10:22

KJoishy wrote:A lot of people don't know WTF Agile is and what the benefits are. They just insist on it because everyone else is and some YemBeeYay type convinced them.

+1. I don't know if I am completely correct here, but I feel many India based IT Service providers are plainly trying to get certified on all processes (CMMi, ISO-xxx etc. etc., Lean, Agile) etc. in a hope that would bring in more revenue. But no process tailoring or taking a judicious decision whether all these certifications are mandatory or not. Don't know if this would lead to a "process for process sake", where processes etc. become more of a hindrance to effective work on the ground. Have heard of smaller companies taking a lead here, by just bringing in processes, frameworks which suits them and follow it.

Marten wrote:Coverage of specs and 100% unbreakable code is required by each team member. Folks are warned and even let go if it they continue breaking builds

I agree with this point, but in the typical IT Sweat-shop companies I feel this would lead to employee fatigue.

ArmenT wrote:There will usually be some guys who are junior in any team. Your team decides how much they can tackle.

Hmm.. But wont this lead to a practical problem, especially in Indian IT context. In Europe and US etc., the work culture, oppurtunities are totally different. Generally folks know their own capability, time limits and have the guts to defend their stand. It may be not possible in India, where saying NO is considered impolite. So a team given the luxury of deciding the Sprint may not work out - the company management feels all their workers are lazy, while employees feel that management wants every ounce of blood squeezed out of them.

Team picks how many tasks, not you. The product owner merely arranges the stories in order of priority, but the team picks up how many stories they think they can finish in that period.

I did not want to add this in when I brought in this topic. Because I did not want to prejudice people's thoughts

. I had been part of a Scrum team around 8 years back. Fine the product owner (our client) did arrange the story and priority. And they did a fine job there. The sprints were 3 weeks long, with 1 more week for Unit Testing and bug fix. Every fourth sprint used to be a "bug fix/regression testing" sprint. But rather than the team deciding the tasks it was two "managers" who decided the tasks

. And to show their commitment tasks were taken with no considerations towards people's vacation plans, time spent on admin activities etc, training time etc. etc. The end result was that after 12 months of sprinting every single team member asked for releases from the project. The client also was surprised when they heard people were moving out (they were under the impression that Scrum was really helping every one around). In another 8 months the project was moved to a different vendor. So here I feel SCRUM as a system/process was not at fault, but how it was "enforced".

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Feb 2014 22:37

Sachin wrote: But rather than the team deciding the tasks it was two "managers" who decided the tasks . And to show their commitment tasks were taken with no considerations towards people's vacation plans, time spent on admin activities etc, training time etc. etc. The end result was that after 12 months of sprinting every single team member asked for releases from the project. The client also was surprised when they heard people were moving out (they were under the impression that Scrum was really helping every one around). In another 8 months the project was moved to a different vendor. So here I feel SCRUM as a system/process was not at fault, but how it was "enforced".

Managers deciding how many stories will be done instead of the team, is invariably one reason why longer term projects fail. It usually starts off well, where the team decides how many stories to do and the manager comes in later and says "Since you guys did x stories last sprint and you guys had a little extra time and the team speed is supposed to increase every sprint, here are x+2 stories this sprint." Gradually, the manager starts deciding the stories, without considering how the team feels about it (including deciding how many points a story is). Pretty soon, the team is overloaded and the only reason that the stories are being done is because of the team's stubborn pride and willingness to work late hours to see the job done. And this is where the problem starts, because sooner or later, the team will realize they can find other opportunities that don't stress them so much. Also, often, the stories may be done, but because of lack of time, they are not done to 100% satisfaction and some bits are left out to be implemented in a future sprint. After a while, the technical debt begins to accumulate into a huge mountain and starts to impact deadlines.

One more thing is that in most scrum projects, there is usually one key person that really drives the team. As the scrum team's load increases, this person usually feels the brunt of it. If this key person goes on vacation/falls sick/stresses out/quits etc., the team's productivity will drop very severely and a replacement is usually very hard to find easily.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 15 Feb 2014 05:39

Bloodbath Begins At IBM India; Workforce Axed & Humiliated

I hate to

about this but people need to understand that this is part of the deal in a capitalistic society. You cannot just get 50% bonus and 30% raise every year forever. You will also get laid off and fired if there is a business reason. Or maybe just unfairly.

So what is this "humiliation" about? No one is assured a job for life. I think the Indian IT industry is at a time when the chaff is separated from the grain. Some more pain in the future.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 16 Feb 2014 01:26

KJoishy wrote:So what is this "humiliation" about? No one is assured a job for life. I think the Indian IT industry is at a time when the chaff is separated from the grain. Some more pain in the future.

Its a matter of reciprocity. Nowadays its around 3 months of notice period for those who resign. It means employees also lose good openings due to one sided separation laws. Compare that with 2 hours from the employers side. I'm sure none of the job agreements have two 2 hours notice period from employers side. Also, depends on the severance pay.
In our place we had two managers being asked to leave in a similar manner in last Oct. With 18 months gross salary as the severance pay. Probably they didn't complain.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 16 Feb 2014 04:14

SRoy, who makes this 3 month law, is it the companies or the Indian Govt? If it is the company, then people should refuse offers and go to a company which allows something more reasonable. Here in the US, they can kick us out any time with no severance. But we can leave too if we want and don't have to give any notice. The market will decide this. If you sign a 3 month thing, they you have to follow it. Here we have non compete agreements, we have to follow those.

In jobs with high reward, there is high risk also. People in India have been babied and pampered for years with 25%+ bonus/raise with always someplace else to jump. Real world awaits. And MMS/Sonia are not to blame, just economics.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 16 Feb 2014 04:17

KJoishy wrote:Bloodbath Begins At IBM India; Workforce Axed & Humiliated

I hate to about this but people need to understand that this is part of the deal in a capitalistic society. You cannot just get 50% bonus and 30% raise every year forever. You will also get laid off and fired if there is a business reason. Or maybe just unfairly.

So what is this "humiliation" about? No one is assured a job for life. I think the Indian IT industry is at a time when the chaff is separated from the grain. Some more pain in the future.

The dudes in Bangalore should not forget the reason why IBM came to India. How people in the west had to train Indians, how they were handed the pink slip.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2014 04:35

this 25% bonus/raise thing is a fond myth of NRIs have who left in the 90s and their mental clock stopped then.

accounting for inflation , real wages have been declining here under UPA regime.

a small 3 member family can barely scratch a living here on a 10L salary. if he/she is given a 25% raise to 12L why grudge that? as it is, purchasing power of rupees is low and anything big ticket like electronics , consumer white goods, shoes is payable in converted dollar prices only.

the person sitting in US and getting a 5% raise is still having a lot more purchasing power and more materially comfy lifestyle.

if you want to enjoy the 25 % bonus/raise lifestyle, stop complaining from there and come back and work here

but I guess discretion is better part of valour for most and complaints will be in ER 155mm mode only from safer locations offshore

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Feb 2014 05:41

I also heard the same thing as Singa is talking about. The inflation in India had gone though the roof. Retired couples are spending close to 50K pm in low vfm cities like Pune and Bangalore. Hyderabad and chennai were not that bad. No idea how is the situation is now.

I can easily believe 20 k pm per retired person with basic needs no car.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 16 Feb 2014 06:29

Rishirishi wrote:
KJoishy wrote:Bloodbath Begins At IBM India; Workforce Axed & Humiliated

I hate to about this but people need to understand that this is part of the deal in a capitalistic society. You cannot just get 50% bonus and 30% raise every year forever. You will also get laid off and fired if there is a business reason. Or maybe just unfairly.

So what is this "humiliation" about? No one is assured a job for life. I think the Indian IT industry is at a time when the chaff is separated from the grain. Some more pain in the future.
The dudes in Bangalore should not forget the reason why IBM came to India. How people in the west had to train Indians, how they were handed the pink slip.

People in west had to train Indians?

One learns on the job or elsewhere and joins the job - in west and in east.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 16 Feb 2014 14:13

SRoy wrote:Its a matter of reciprocity. Nowadays its around 3 months of notice period for those who resign. It means employees also lose good openings due to one sided separation laws. Compare that with 2 hours from the employers side.

Exactly. I know folks who have lost a couple of job offers because of the notice period (in this case two months). And these are NOT one sided separation "laws", it is more of a contractual obligation. IT folks in India still don't have a clue on labour laws and if I get it right IT workers are not considered in the standard definition of a work force. And off course there are no labour unions as well. What is urgently required is for the IT folks to know the laws which are in force in this country. I am not talking about militant trade unionism which we have in 100% literate state etc.

KJoishy wrote:SRoy, who makes this 3 month law, is it the companies or the Indian Govt?

It is the IT company. The government generally do not have any much role here. Also Government laws are more applicable for factory workers etc. on long term employment. Where as IT work force mainly work on a "contract" mode. Where as in US, I have noticed that the labour rules of the land apply for IT folks as well. I know people who just walked away with one week notice

. The Indian managers noted for bullying their team members were just sitting and whining. Any of their standard tactic to coerce the person to stay back would have landed them in a police lock up.

Here in the US, they can kick us out any time with no severance. But we can leave too if we want and don't have to give any notice.

That is an equal-equal match. Which I feel is a fare game. But I dont think it is the same case in Indian IT area.

Singha wrote:a small 3 member family can barely scratch a living here on a 10L salary.

Bingo!!! And you know what I heard the same things from - guess what - a lorry driver in Bangalore. The living expense in these cities have gone high over the roof. Do not think any one is making any profit with an IT job these days. Worse is the case for folks working in non-IT areas.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 16 Feb 2014 19:10

Thanks for the responses.
Singha saar, if you didn't get huge raise/bonus during boom years, you were in the wrong company or doing something wrong.

Everyone and his Amma Appa used to get big raises during a certain period of time and if they didn't they would switch jobs.

Whether that is sufficient is a whole different discussion. People did live during pre-IT days. Why is it difficult now? It is inflation of course, but why and how?
My theory is there is too much money in the system due to black money. IT people used to be the rich kids around 2000 when they made big salaries and no one else did. They had to pay taxes. Then other businesses caught on and they made big bucks as well but they did not pay taxes. So in comparison, IT people became the poor people in the neighborhood because they paid taxes. Now IT salaries are suffering, but most people don't pay taxes so prices still go up and IT people are in trouble.
In the US, everyone (most people) pays taxes, so there is equilibrium and the dollar has value because the Govt controls it when it gets money in the form of tax. In India, there is too much money floating around and the Rupee has no value. My friends and family used to tell me with great pride how Rs 100 had no value anymore. I would go

. In my day (mid 90s), it was a huge amount. This visit I asked my father for spending money (Rs)

and he got bundles of Rs 500 from the bank.

My worry is how this will recover. I predict a real estate CRASH in India, especially Bangalore once there is some clamp on black money. I am told that there are moves afoot for this. When people pay taxes, they don't have as much free cash to invest. They don't buy lavish apartments and land. Villas don't sell for 2, 3, 5, crores because no one can afford them. Deflation will begin and have it's own ill effects. The Govt has to ensure there is no runaway deflation.
Agree/disagree? Comments welcome since many of you are in India.
MMS has ruined India. He deserves a kick on the nuts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2014 19:35

People in power and construction have collaborated to prevent cities from expanding smoothly with good connectivity. This keep housing prices high..and that's biggest outgo in emi. Petrol, education, medical care, food is all quite expensive.
only the lowest quality stuff is cheap. In my era color plus pants were jaw dropping stuff of legend at 1800. Today any good brand costs that much.
businesses have high cost of all inputs and backup power..it flows from there.
congis run a punishment cum shortage economy like slum lords..thats all they do best.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 16 Feb 2014 23:41

I have to say the majority of NRI or American types can not afford the lifestyle many upper/middle Indian families have these days. Saars, I can not afford it, though I'm not IT/VITY.

!,500-2,000 sqft condo apartment in tony area 5 km from city center, with car, private school for both kids, eating out/delivery $20 type food 2-3 times a week, 1-2-3 servants to do cooking/laundry/etc, regular festivals, travel every 2-3 months, shopping every month at N-Usman street, 1 kg of gold in locker, etc. I'm not sure Indians can afford this even. As pointed out even 10l annual salary is not enough for this.

KJo is right that major part of American income goes to taxes. All inclusive, fed, state, local, sales, property, payroll, tolls, etc. 44% IIRC. Free cash in your hand is very low.
I can't even afford to put my kids in private school!