Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Feb 2014 06:17

Really - why is it in a slump? We tested missiles and rockets on our own, we exploded nukes on our own - we make pharmaceuticals on our own that are at par with the "advanced". When Soviet Russian scientists were in full throttle, they were often not really publishing stuff in "western journals". I have interacted with the younger crop who migrated in the 90's and early 2000's - and saw much more "advanced" they really were in terms of research capabilities. That their regime collapsed is a different issue. Roman empire fell after "advancing" in the most blistering technological way for centuries.

All I am saying is that India cannot look to UK or USA for approval of its research by looking at how many papers from Indian scientists were published in western journals, or how many of them were trained at oxbridge. It should judge its brains by their concrete productivity on the ground - for Indian objectives and Indian needs. Had they prevented the type of bureaucratic dishonesty and manipulation based on petty jealousies and incompetent power seeking coterie formations - put the brains in pressure cooker and provide the money - for example, I need a nuke sub in 3 years time - fully functional with no hassles and frills and explosions. Here is the money, and do not come out of the manufacturing complex until it is done. We should be able to say this, and keep our promises too as to what we promised the brains to give on our side. That is how we should go.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 05 Feb 2014 06:35

Slump is not the right word but probably stagnant. People need something worthwhile (either academia doing exciting work or industry to do more applied research and development) to do after earning the degree and also concomitant remuneration. Not everybody can be like APJAK. People have families, dreams, and objectives and familial responsibilities to fulfill which requires certain amount of money. If the salaries do not keep up with MBA/It-Vity, it is a losing game. For example, we lost a couple (IIT MTechs) to IT industry because they could almost double their salaries though they were doing work which was directly related to their academics in our company and we were paying in the upper quartile for that skill set. Actually generic IT (i.e. Project Mgmt., DBMS, Transaction Processing) is sucking not only Masters but even PhDs who are non-CS but have done theses and/or projects which are in their area with some computation involved. Every area today requires some amount of computer programming. That is good enough for in-house business applications or placement as consultants on-site for the same. The money was good but I think it is maturing, but still the headroom is much more in IT than in other areas like core manufacturing/construction/banking/insurance.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 06 Feb 2014 09:58

This "family expectation" thingie is disastrous. Also why should a young sapling be loaded with the "expectations for monetary high jumps" by family and extended networks? Why should they not be let free to take risks - take ventures, entrepreneurships, be allowed to "fail" a couple of times? What is the great big hurry in a hundred people or a thousand clan to put the lad or lady into a pressure cooker to immediately start earning crores and then make a "good marriage" and start the downward spiral towards non-productivity the moment they obtain their primary degree?

Youngsters must be encouraged to venture out into exploring ever expanding exciting entreprenurial ventures - where they look for creativity and sustainability rather than earning crores by 25 and then help in the redistribution of that wealth and associated influence/prestige/status/basking in the glow/using the name/ sort of social exploitation?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Feb 2014 12:59

all well and good saar, but its a probability game that everyone plays. for every successful venture there are 10 failures at least...
and who has to fund the failures?
but i agree in principle - we need to encourage more career choice

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 07 Feb 2014 22:33

Cameron's emotional appeal to Scotland: Don't break away and erode UK's global clout
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 010286.cms

What can we do to actively promote the dissolution of UK so that they can be turfed out of the UN Security Council and we take their place?

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 07 Feb 2014 22:59

^^
We can start free Scotland thread for a start.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 07 Feb 2014 23:15

brihaspati: Let us take it to IT (is that the right thread?) or Indian Economy.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 08 Feb 2014 04:56

ShankarCag wrote:Cameron's emotional appeal to Scotland: Don't break away and erode UK's global clout
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 010286.cms

What can we do to actively promote the dissolution of UK so that they can be turfed out of the UN Security Council and we take their place?

So once Scottland breaks away (gut feeling says it wont happen), what is the UK going to be called? FUK == Former UK?

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 08 Feb 2014 12:56

LokeshC wrote:
ShankarCag wrote:Cameron's emotional appeal to Scotland: Don't break away and erode UK's global clout
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 010286.cms

What can we do to actively promote the dissolution of UK so that they can be turfed out of the UN Security Council and we take their place?
So once Scottland breaks away (gut feeling says it wont happen), what is the UK going to be called? FUK == Former UK?

And the denizens of that will be called.........~~FUKers~~

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 08 Feb 2014 21:21

LokeshC wrote:So once Scottland breaks away (gut feeling says it wont happen), what is the UK going to be called? FUK == Former UK?

Yuk (yesterday's UK).

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 09 Feb 2014 07:14

ऑपरेशन ब्लूस्टार से अगस्ता का भी वास्ता..

ऑपरेशन ब्लूस्टार के लिए ब्रिटिश मदद पर लंदन में सावर्जनिक हुई एक रिपोर्ट 1984 में भारत को वेस्टलैंड कंपनी के हेलीकॉप्टर बिक्री पर चल रही बातचीत का भी जिक्र करती है। यह वही कंपनी है जो अब अगस्ता-वेस्टलैंड कहलाती है और इन दिनों भारत में वीवीआइपी हेलीकॉप्टर खरीद सौदे में रिश्वतखोरी को लेकर सीबीआइ जांच के घेरे में है।

http://www.jagran.com/news/national-ope ... tml?src=p1

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 09 Feb 2014 15:47

ShankarCag wrote:Cameron's emotional appeal to Scotland: Don't break away and erode UK's global clout
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 010286.cms

What can we do to actively promote the dissolution of UK so that they can be turfed out of the UN Security Council and we take their place?

My Indian friends living in Scotland in the oil rigs of Aberdeen are going to vote for dissolution.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Feb 2014 16:00

when is the vote ?

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 09 Feb 2014 16:07

Thursday 18 September 2014

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 09 Feb 2014 16:11

British education ... even better at full volume

Poems, everybody ...

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 09 Feb 2014 21:48

Will the vote actually result in the breaking away of Scotland? The opinion polls seem to tell a different story.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 09 Feb 2014 22:39

KrishG wrote:Will the vote actually result in the breaking away of Scotland? The opinion polls seem to tell a different story.

The betting odds suggest a low probability of a Yes (to independence) vote. See, for example:

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... um-outcome

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 10 Feb 2014 15:00

To do business with India and China, Britain needs to lose its imperial swagger

The sins of empire are still etched in the minds of many of the UK's global partners. Our soft power is the best antidote

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... soft-power

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 12 Feb 2014 23:13

Breathing a new lease of life into the floor-length showstopper via her gorgeous Nizam of Hyderabad necklace – on loan from the Queen – Ms Middleton made sure her first public appearance of 2014 was one stylish affair to remember.

Nizam of Hyderabad gifted the Jewels to Queen Elizabeth in 1947, which were fashioned into a Necklace and Tiara by Cartier for her wedding in that year.

What's that old saying about pearls being wasted before turd engorged swine?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 12 Feb 2014 23:55

^^^ The Indian elite were so brainwashed by then that they gave lavish gifts to the goras to get their approval and decorate their darbars.
This has continued with the great donations to western universities by Indian industrialists while nothing is given back home. Same syndrome

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 13 Feb 2014 00:07

The UK royals have surely come a long way since rise of pirate empire.
Rise of British
Don't forget first post on this page itself by Brihaspatiji.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 13 Feb 2014 23:44

UK unites against giving the pound to Scotland

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opi ... 685715.ece

Scottish nationalists suffered a blow this week as Britain’s three major political parties in Westminster ruled out allowing an independent Scotland to use the pound.

In a rare display of unity over a two-day period, politicians of the ruling Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties spoke out, just seven months before the referendum on whether or not Scotland will remain in the UK, is set to take place.

“The Scottish Government says that if Scotland becomes independent there will be a currency union and Scotland will share the pound. People need to know that is not going to happen,” said Chancellor George Osborne in a speech in Edinburgh on Thursday.

“Sharing the pound is not in the interests of either the people or Scotland or the rest of the UK.” His comments came the morning after the Liberal Democrat Minister Danny Alexander also clarified his party’s position. “A currency union would create unacceptable risks for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom,” he said.

“To take that step and then give up control over interest rates, exchange rates, and freedom over tax and spending policy would leave an independent Scotland hugely exposed to economic shocks, but without any of the economic levels to manage a response.”

Supporting their case was analysis published by Treasury officials, which also strongly advocated against a currency union, pointing to a number of problems, including the impact that the Scottish Government’s uncertainty over whether or not to move to another currency in the future would have, the size of Scotland’s banking sector, and differences in fiscal priorities between Westminster and the Scottish Government. Labour, too, ruled out support for the Euro.

Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls insisted that a currency union would “repeat the mistakes” of the Euro Zone.

“The lessons of the euro crisis is that it could place unacceptable burdens on large countries and small countries,” he told The Independent. Last month, the Bank of England Governor Mark Carney warned there would be risks of a currency union, if an independent Scotland did not cede sovereignty over banking, taxation and spending.

The referendum will take place on September 18, 2014, giving the Scottish Government 18 months to prepare — if the answer is yes — for an ‘independence day” on March 24, 2016. Outlining its vision for an independent Scotland back in November, the Scottish National Party’s leader Alex Salmond insisted a currency union would be in the best interest of both the UK and Scotland.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 14 Feb 2014 06:54

Is it time to consider starting a separate thread on possible Scottish Independence and Scotland's relationship with India? It would make a great discussion thread of what ifs and why nots.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2014 08:27

Jarita wrote:^^^ The Indian elite were so brainwashed by then that they gave lavish gifts to the goras to get their approval and decorate their darbars.
This has continued with the great donations to western universities by Indian industrialists while nothing is given back home. Same syndrome

the latest seems to be a gift of 8cr by yusuf hamied of cipla to some royal society who have 'promised' to help improve chemistry education in india!!

after we deduct their chai paani study trip and hardship expenses, I doubt anything meaningful will be left

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 14 Feb 2014 08:32

As far as I know one of the main motivators and founders of BOE was a Scot. Scots had been not bad financial innovators when they were not part of the empire. They had always maintained their separate local currencies, which only were sort of stamped out after "unification".

There is some experiment already with crypto currency there. (probably also taking inspiration from Iceland - one example we should perhaps study on its own merit in some appropriate thread). They would do well by delinking from the pound. At least it would not be the disaster people are projecting.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 14 Feb 2014 10:50

Can't resist - scots are supposed to be thrifty so it is a compliment

How did the Grand Canyon form? A scot lost a penny in a crevice near the banks of Colorado river.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 14 Feb 2014 23:07

Aaaaah destiny..........talkative,snobish,royal and choosy British are in deep water for more then on month now. It time for ISRO to provide satelite image to the various agencies fighting the flooding. Situation is so grave that theyare flying spy to map the flooded areas.We owe them.........after all Indian space programme is financed by aid money from uk.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 16 Feb 2014 11:25

'Historian' from Briturdia pays his due to the Hag on the top, the Qyoon herself. Not surprising since this clown was invited by other clowns who celebrate Rudyard (the bigot) Kipling as a great 'Indian' writer:

Bhagat Singh, Azad were terrorists, says UK historian

SURAT: A controversy has been kicked off by the comments of a United Kingdom-based researcher in his lecture here on Friday in which he described Bhagat Singh and Chandrashekhar Azad as members of terrorist groups.

Professor of history at University of Warwick David Hardiman described the work of these national heroes during the movement for freedom from the British as terror activities. However, following strong objections from some members of the audience, Hardiman said, "The words were not used in derogatory terms."

Hardiman was speaking on 'Nonviolent Resistance in India during 1915-1947' at the Centre for Social Studies (CSS) as a part of the 24th I P Desai Memorial Lecture.

"Every nonviolent movement has a violent group aiming to achieve the same ends, but with violence. This group often indulges in terror acts like bombings, shootings and assassinations. The movement is benefited because the authorities feel it is better to deal with nonviolent people than the dangerous terrorists," he said.

Further Hardiman said, "Terrorist groups, who predate Mahatma Gandhi, were always there alongside the Gandhian movement. Some of these famous figures were Bhagat Singh and Chandrashekhar Azad, who were involved in organizations like Hindustan Republican Association and Hindustan Socialist Republican Army."

The comments of Hardiman, who was born in Rawalpindi in 1947 to a British army officer, came in for criticism from Unmesh Pandya, a member of the executive council of Veer Narmad South Gujarat University. "The term terrorist should not be used for freedom fighters. They can be called extremist, but not terrorist," Pandya said.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Feb 2014 11:40

Well from our point of view Churchill was a terrorist, and a genocidal bigot. We just need to speak about it instead of being concerned about offending other people. Sometimes we are too polite for our own good, especially when we have truth as back-up.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 16 Feb 2014 11:48

JEM sir, being polite means they know that the Brits are evil but they keep things civil. The issue I see among the Indian elites is that they dont know that the Brits are evil, they seem to know history including what went on during partition but mysteriously think that the brits had nothing to do with it. It puzzles me to no end.

I have been interacting some brits of late. I have been civil all the time. But whenever they try to bring in their "civilization narrative" and try to pass judgements on India, I showed them their place politely but firmly. Now they just keep quiet and talk about some mundane nonsense, and I keep giving them "positive news about britain" (binge drinking issues etc) once in a while.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Feb 2014 12:04

Is it civil for Brits to say Bhagat Singh is a terrorist? If yes, then it is equally civil for "them" (I suppose you mean Indians?) to say that Churchill was a genocidal bigot. If it is not civil for the Brits to say Bhagat Singh is a terrorist, why do they have to be civil? I would say they should be honest and point out the obvious, supported by fact.

First of all, we are the Indian elites (if you go by how the majority live and by their level of access to the basics). Secondly, speak the truth. Without fear, and without embarrassment. Thirdly face the fact that not everybody will do that.

The everyday Brit you meet on the street, or that you have as a colleague or as a friend is not going to go about referring to anybody involved in the Indian freedom struggle as a terrorist. Most are ordinary folk who will interact with an Indian in a totally normal way. But there are these aging, empire-nostalgic, inflated and slightly pompous assholes who keep writing and saying these things. Hit back in word, and to the face when possible, or in writing. Calmly, firmly, and relentlessly.

Don't be puzzled about "Indian elites" - that's just an excuse and panning the blame to someone else. You do what you can, and encourage and be an example to others. Stick to reason, stick to truth (not like that crap China want's north-east so-called "psyops" bullsh1t - that's what a baboon might put together; because it obfuscates the possibility that the Chinese might indeed have had hand in the attacks on north-eastern Indians in Delhi), and keep at it.

If enough of us do that, and there are a lot of us, you end up with people changing their views, adjusting them, or at the very least being very careful what they say.

* Just noted you added a 2nd para, but will keep my post as is...

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 16 Feb 2014 12:13

Right, and no harm in pointing out the Bengal famine of 1943; bombing and gassing in Irag in 1920s. These are criminal offences. Additionally one should also politely point out that Bhagat Singh/Rajguru or even Dhingra were only trying to be free and not aggressors unlike Churchill or Havelock whose statue provides symmetry to that of the blue-cock in Trafalgar square.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 16 Feb 2014 14:12

David Hardiman should be asked why the British assisted the terrorists of Europe like De Gaulle. After all they were in his words, "Every nonviolent movement has a violent group aiming to achieve the same ends, but with violence". Correct? Surely by his reasoning they should have negotiated the takeover of Europe with Hitler to a "non violent end" AND denied De Gaulle any assistance.

Double standards. normal routine.

Miliband as foreign secretary suggested in India that events like the siege in Mumbai may not have happened if the Indian government had pathways to negotiate with the terrorists, yet the same logic that would have saved both Iraq and Afghanistan from invasion was beyond him. It is Indian politeness that allows these opinions traction.

One needs to create and promote an Indian Information Center that can be used as a baseline for historical facts from an Indian perspective. Such a reference point to be good enough for any Indian student to use for the formulation of an understanding of any aspect of history. There you must shout out the fact that churchil was a genocidal bigot and teach this to all current and future Indian students. See then how the UK reports these matters and let them squirm rather than you.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Feb 2014 16:01

Lisa wrote:
One needs to create and promote an Indian Information Center that can be used as a baseline for historical facts from an Indian perspective. Such a reference point to be good enough for any Indian student to use for the formulation of an understanding of any aspect of history. There you must shout out the fact that churchil was a genocidal bigot and teach this to all current and future Indian students. See then how the UK reports these matters and let them squirm rather than you.

The above quote is actually a solution to the issue with our entire history. For too long we have let our histtory to be written by people who have very little knowledge of it. And with the British colonization and loot, we have let them control the narrative. Entries in Wikipedia always seem to give an impression of a benevolent British Raj.
A comprehensive India Information Centre is needed.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 17 Feb 2014 00:19

Lilo wrote:

Breathing a new lease of life into the floor-length showstopper via her gorgeous Nizam of Hyderabad necklace – on loan from the Queen – Ms Middleton made sure her first public appearance of 2014 was one stylish affair to remember.

Nizam of Hyderabad gifted the Jewels to Queen Elizabeth in 1947, which were fashioned into a Necklace and Tiara by Cartier for her wedding in that year.
What's that old saying about pearls being wasted before turd engorged swine?

somebody should tell TRS. they will have a Queen ~~Victoria~~ ~~Elizabeth~~ Catherine holiday declared.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 03 Mar 2014 12:25

Remains of 100 Indian soldiers excavated from well in Punjab

The excavation work at a well in Ajnala near Amritsar, in which 282 Indian soldiers were thrown into on August 1, 1857, on Saturday threw up the remains of around 100 martyrs.

Sikh historian Surinder Kochar and Gurdwara Shaheed Gunj Management Committee have started excavation of the Rebel's Grave, popularly known as the ' kaalon ka kuan', where the Indian soldiers were pushed into by British officials.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2014 13:32

Shhhh....as per mountbatten singh the british rule was best for india.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Mar 2014 18:58

need to be slightly cautious with stories from 1857. a lot of the 'reprisals' ordered by the british against 'mutineers and their sympathisers' were carried out by sikhs, pathans and gurkhas who were newly recruited to fight the rebel EIC troops. the very same EIC troops who in the preceding years had defeated these very same people. sikh reprisals against muslim EIC rebels was said to be quite fierce.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Mar 2014 10:05

Lalmohan wrote:need to be slightly cautious with stories from 1857. a lot of the 'reprisals' ordered by the british against 'mutineers and their sympathisers' were carried out by sikhs, pathans and gurkhas who were newly recruited to fight the rebel EIC troops. the very same EIC troops who in the preceding years had defeated these very same people. sikh reprisals against muslim EIC rebels was said to be quite fierce.

You mean the reprisals were unsupervised by British officers or the "native" troops acted in excess of or above the level formally ordered by the British officers on their own initiative?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Mar 2014 12:46

^^^ all combinations of the above. the british encouraged score settling by any means possible