India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[amit]

Devyani Khobragade is alleged to to have a flat in Adarsh. That makes a neat circle linking Khobragade to UPA. And when it is necessary to restart the old subject of bashing the UPA in every thread and every topic, inane rhetoric comes in useful to connect up Khobragade's alleged involvement in a US visa scam; her alleged acquisition of an Adarsh flat, and the corruption of the UPA government all neatly rolled up together like dry snot from both nostrils in one comfortable ball to be smeared into this thread.

The Adarsh reference was unnecessary and off topic and my reference to Shah Rukh Khan was merely to show that mere fame and influence have not been enough for the GoI to rescue someone in the US. The Adarsh scam too is a bogey and really should not be mentioned any more in the context of the custodial rape of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade.

Just to add to Shiv's post, we've also had a linkage drawn to the beheading of Indian soldiers by Pakistanis and the "alleged" inaction by UPA. Someone is building up a check list. Unfortunately the best way to get a discussion off topic is to turn it into a UPA bashing session. Note: I have no illusions about this government, especially after its second term. But to bring up its follies and foibles looks to me as a major thread disruption attempt. They should be strictly off topic IMO.

[Lalmohan]

the adarsh angle was brought in to discredit her so that her court case would be weakened
PB recently convicted another desi for insider trading, a week before the trial began, there was a mysterious leak to the press saying that the defendant had falsified his grades from harvard law school to get internships

[UlanBatori]

Here is the newspaper article:
UN agency backs India, says Devyani had full immunity

That whole thing is from one of the documents that Arshack submitted: see the list posted here a while back. Indian news reporters and editors are too lazy to do more than copy from BRF and other places. They don't do diddly on their own - why have they not gone and found out
a) where are SR and family now? They are not in some top-secret Witness Program, surely? So why no news locating them?
b) How about a story on where SR came from? Surely there is a village in Bangalore, Kerala, that it itching to be on the front pages bragging about this future US Congressional Medal of Freedom winner?
c) How about more info on PR (Mr. SR) and the DUI connection if any?
d) How about posting the memo found from the AES?
e) How about posting the documents obtained from the Filipino maid? ("documents are with this newspaper", OK, are they in the bijnej of conjealing info or publishing it?)
f) What has happened to the Indian court case against the DUI et al? Have they been declared Fugitives From Justice and got their pictures on the Post Office walls? If not, why not?

Instead they download a link posted at BRF and make that a big discovery.

[shiv]

Here is the newspaper article:
UN agency backs India, says Devyani had full immunity

That whole thing is from one of the documents that Arshack submitted: see the list posted here a while back. Indian news reporters and editors are too lazy to do more than copy from BRF and other places. They don't do diddly on their own - why have they not gone and found out
a) where are SR and family now? They are not in some top-secret Witness Program, surely? So why so news locating them?
b) How about posting the memo found from the AES?
c) How about posting the documents obtained from the Filipino maid? ("documents are with this newspaper", OK, are they in the bijnej of conjealing info or publishing it?)
d) What has happened to the Indian court case against the DUI et al? Have they been declared Fugitives From Justice and got their pictures on the Post Office walls? If not, why not?

Good point. Yak's milk is sure a great brain stimulant.

Come on Indian journalists. Where are Sangeeta Richard and family? What is happening to the case in India?

[rgsrini]

All I said was that Indians abroad get shafted and no one in the GOI cares the bruhahah is because someone of the GOI got shafted. Nothing more nothing less, case being civil or criminal has little to do with it.

Of course. India cannot and must not get involved in every single case that comes up against Indians abroad, unless it is a major systemic issue where Indians are being singled out. However, the barbaric attack on DK (being a diplomat) is an attack on a Indian institution. India cannot afford and must not allow its diplomatic institutions to be attacked, its diplomats "raped", and its power eroded by illegal, and third rate means like what happened in DK's affair. India and the UPA government is right in according special priority to this incident and extending special treatment to DK.

I am not really sure what is so difficult in understanding this.

Added Later: I do agree, that India should have raised a stink in Krittika Biswas's case. It dropped the ball on that one. Doesn't mean that it should drop the ball on DK's issue as well. Also, India should not have abandoned the principles of parity between Indian and US diplomatic community. India has been quite flexible in accomodating the US, and the US has misunderstood the Indian flexibility and accomodative posture, as a sign of weakness. I am glad to see that Indian government, and babus are growing a little bit of spine and atleast threatening to "invoke parity" (sigh!).

[member_22733]

Here is the newspaper article:
UN agency backs India, says Devyani had full immunity

That whole thing is from one of the documents that Arshack submitted: see the list posted here a while back. Indian news reporters and editors are too lazy to do more than copy from BRF and other places. They don't do diddly on their own - why have they not gone and found out
a) where are SR and family now? They are not in some top-secret Witness Program, surely? So why no news locating them?
b) How about a story on where SR came from? Surely there is a village in Bangalore, Kerala, that it itching to be on the front pages bragging about this future US Congressional Medal of Freedom winner?
c) How about more info on PR (Mr. SR) and the DUI connection if any?
d) How about posting the memo found from the AES?
e) How about posting the documents obtained from the Filipino maid? ("documents are with this newspaper", OK, are they in the bijnej of conjealing info or publishing it?)
f) What has happened to the Indian court case against the DUI et al? Have they been declared Fugitives From Justice and got their pictures on the Post Office walls? If not, why not?

Instead they download a link posted at BRF and make that a big discovery.

(a) is because they are just plain lazy and dumb, or they dont want to kick up dirt on their masters.
(b) usually means, give us more baksheesh and we will conceal it.

I have one more question: (g) Why are they not following up the fact that DUI and kids were transported to the US illegally using T visas (now that the trafficking case has been dropped.)

[Vayutuvan]

Was Khobragade protected because she might have been involved in the Adarsh scam? That sounds too far fetched to me. I assume that you would agree with my assessment. In fact I will just go back a few posts and indicate how the topic of Adarsh scam was brought up in this context.
...
the corruption of the UPA government all neatly rolled up together like dry snot from both nostrils in one comfortable ball to be smeared into this thread.
...
The Adarsh scam too is a bogey and really should not be mentioned any more in the context of the custodial rape of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade.

A lot of people in desh and PIOs would be watching what IFS and IAS and other burocrats going to do going forward. Are they going to cleanup their Augean stables are us it going be business as usual, I.e. shafting Indian public and their elected representatives by bending the rules, framing rules which are extremely complex but at the same time gave so e loop holes which can be exploited for under the table quid pro quos. Woul Sri Uttam Khobragade be contesting on an INC ticket? Would Dr. DK's assets be valued according to the market rates? All these will indicate what the IFS intentions are going forward. If they are not cleaning their stables, please don't be surprised if GoI and it's representatives do not get any sympathy when this happens next time around. There are lot of babus and did-PSU on PR in US through their naturalized children and believe me it is puke inducing to see their they gaming the Medicaid and supplemental security income while still availing govt. pension in India and vacationing for winter six months in benami properties that far exceed the limits set by US Medicare/SSI. In fact they would have had to sign a paper in front of an officer from Social security saying what they stated on the application is true and they are liable for prosecution if it is found otherwise.

As far I am concerned, I have lent my voice - how ever feeble it is. Next time around it is going to be different. I will not even waste a second supporting or castigating either party. I don't believe I am in the minority in this respect.

By the way no issues with UPA, BJP, or even AAP. All of them won elections in what I believe to be a fair democratic process. Could that process be better? Yes, but as it is, it is not all that bad. The bigger question is can you say the same about the burocracy and red tape? I don't think so.

[rohitvats]

And how exactly are you qualified to comment on this 'wannabe' aspect? Has it not been stated clearly enough that speculation on this aspect will not be tolerated? Next instance gets you a warning. Please be mindful of the same - rohitvats

For what it is worth, I am not speculating. I have already looked up and summarized all his previous positions in this thread. None of them are bonafide tenure-track or tenured positions (believe me, I know). These are all "floating", "soft money" positions that come and go.

At the moment Rathore has accumulated 4 such temporary positions and is almost 40. In academia somebody with that kind of record is usually called a "wannabe".

Being a bonafide professor in a reputed institution is not about gallivanting around the world accumulating visiting positions, it is about developing a substantial record at one place first. I am professionally qualified to comment on it. I don't understand why that rankles you.

I have a clear supporting rationale for my conclusion. You can call it incorrect and provide your refutation, but please don't call it a speculation and declare you are going to warn me (!!).

Now if you still think this is "speculation", I will not "speculate" about it again due to your personal prejudice.

Thanks.

Do you know what the objective and goals of DK's husband in life are? How come you are so sure that he has been doing all that he has done because he is a 'wannabe' professor? Do you know for a fact that he wants to build a career in academia along tradition lines as you've highlighted above? Has it crossed your mind that may be, given his family background, he is happy doing what he does and can actually do the 'gallivanting' stuff because he has been provided for other things in life? That he can jump around the world following his wife w/o having to go through the usual rigmarole?

Long story short - you're simply speculating based on a thought process which might simply not apply to the concerned person. You, or for that matter of fact, no one knows the real life situation either ways. So, you're speculating when you call him a 'wannabe' professor.

[shiv]

please don't be surprised if GoI and it's representatives do not get any sympathy when this happens next time around.

Matrimc, this has nothing to do with khobragade. If a diplomat is unfairly arrested and does not get sympathy from people in the US, so what? Big deal. It's a tough world out there. And if some other diplomat is cheating the system - so what again. It is his headache. I know US citizen friends of mine who are running (or trying to run) scams to get money from somewhere.

Indians habitually slobber after the US and the US games them. Even now (as I type this) 2 or 3 TV channels are discussing US ambassadora or someone meeting Modi as if it is a big deal. On BRF I have often heard the comment that the US aam junta don't even get to hear about India or the visit of an Indian President or PM. That is so unlike India. Indians in general slobber after the west and white man - that is a national characteristic. Why this happens has been discussed in many threads over many years. Indians feel the US is so important that some Indians in the US helped arrange for Modi's visa to be opposed. In India Congress/UPA parliamentarians "appealed" to the US not to give Modi a visa. And a BJP MP requested the US just the opposite. India is a country whose people have been taught to act like slaves. We don't know what self respect means. We have to deal with it, just like India has dealt with a desperately poor and 90% illiterate population from 1947 - there are issues to be addressed

The US and US citizens will not give a damn for India. Indians on the other hand give very high value to the US and the US looms larger than life for Indians who believe that the US is the fountain of wealth, justice and freedom. Indians think of the US as the US wants to be thought of and Indians believe the US to be what it is supposed to be, not what it actually is. Indians are always explaining to other Indians about how everything is so great in America and needs to be emulated. Drooling Indians can never ignore the US like US citizens ignore (or are ignorant of) india. For Indians the US matters one heck of a lot and the US allows selected Indians to make merry and keeps them happy as a sort of "fixed deposit" who can be "used" if need be. Many ex-IAS/IFS and armed forces people are probably in that kitty. That too has to be handled by India, competently or incompetently. I bet the US deliberately turns a blind eye to some things by influential Indians while other law abiding Indian Americans are kept on a tight leash because they are small fry. The idea that everyone is treated equally under US law is, as is clear, a big myth. If you read stories of who gets visas in India it is obvious that certain people are simply allowed in because they are needed or will be useful to the US. The US is not so stupid as to not be able to use the fact that the average Indian will kiss US ass any day for a dollar.

That is all very well . It still has nothing to do with the illegal arrest and custodial rape of an Indian diplomat. For the first time India got out of the slave/slobber mode, and that makes a change. That behaviour was different from the standard behaviour that you and I have both described.

[JE Menon]

>>A lot of people in desh and PIOs would be watching what IFS and IAS and other burocrats going to do going forward....

What has above post got to do with the arrest, detention and strip search of DK in the US? Everything you have mentioned is an internal affair, for Indians to handle.

Or are you suggesting that is OK for the US to manhandle our diplomats/bureaucrats if they happen to be suspected of underhand dealings in India?

A truly incredible post.

[UlanBatori]

At the moment Rathore has accumulated 4 such temporary positions and is almost 40. In academia somebody with that kind of record is usually called a "wannabe".
Being a bonafide professor in a reputed institution is not about gallivanting around the world accumulating visiting positions, it is about developing a substantial record at one place first. I am professionally qualified to comment on it. I don't understand why that rankles you.
I have a clear supporting rationale for my conclusion. You can call it incorrect and provide your refutation, but please don't call it a speculation and declare you are going to warn me (!!).
Now if you still think this is "speculation", I will not "speculate" about it again due to your personal prejudice.

Hmm! Being a yak-herder myself, I have a different perspective on these things. First, what is this "Ten-Year" or "Ten-Cure" or whatever. It would be rather difficult at least on little Appu and Parukutty if Daddy were rooted to, say, downtown Ulan Bator for 40 saal while Mommy gets posted to a different part of the world every 2 years or 3 years. So an "academic" with a rather worldwide-applicable specialty, sounds like a super career choice, no comment on any other aspect. I mean, one could hardly sell yak-herding skills in, say, Noo Yoik? London? Frankfurt? Daytona Beach? And WHAT a specialty!!! When u or I open a bottle and smell it, that is called "smelling to see if the smell is too bad". When HE does that, it is "sampling Le Fragrance". If he looks across the room after a gulp and says:

What a full BODY!

it neither brings a lump on the head, nor does it bring the Homicide Squad looking for the same. A specialty that makes him an instant Celebrite d'Conversation at any party, whether diplomatic or at the nbd bar. I must say I commend the man.
As for age etc. phoeey! Good wine and good academics only get better with age. They call it "vintage" not "decrepititude". Q.E.D. (That's "Quaid-e-Duh!" BTW)

Oops! Saw too late that the Gendarmes d'O'Tee have arrived. Leaving for the frozen pastures now, SSIRR!!

[JE Menon]

>>Indians on the other hand give very high value to the US and the US looms larger than life for Indians who believe that the US is the fountain of wealth, justice and freedom. Indians think of the US as the US wants to be thought of

Once they get there though everything must be maintained as closely as it can be to how it was in India, in family and social terms at least, but thank you for the general governance and infrastructure (and Old Navy and Aeropostale). In short, the US is like an India which actually works. And INC wonders why NRIs love Modi.

[Raja Bose]

Looks like the debate is getting too heated up. amit, negi, LokeshC etc. time to cool down.

[member_28352]

In short, the US is like an India which actually works

[Vayutuvan]

Or are you suggesting that is OK for the US to manhandle our diplomats/bureaucrats if they happen to be suspected of underhand dealings in India?

A truly incredible post.

JEM:

You are putting words in my mouth. In fact I was always arguing the opposite as far as getting back the DCG is concerned. I hope you go back and look at my statement which I made long ago in this very same thread that charging the DCG is an attack on Indian sovereignty and thus it's constitution. Gotus went even beyond by arresting the DCG and extracting the IBDA's family.

Are you saying that status quo of the red tape and labyrinthine rules are ok? Everybody to her own. I beg to differ and not going to be apologetic about it. People who are in business know that a small amount has to be allocated for greasing the system which would be passed onto the customers. If they are export businesses, then their competitiveness is lowered by that overhead. For some industries, it could be make or break. For some it is not.

I am not overly worried about how the babus are gaming the system in India. It is for the voting Indians to deal with. I certainly do not approve of their gaming the system in US which is specifically set up to help the poorest of the poor from the taxes paid by US citizens. Do I have the skills and time to go after them? The answer is no. I just write it off as one of those inefficiencies in the system just as Indians are writing off burocratic red tape and chai biscuit in India as an inefficiency. But there is always a limit beyond which the friction slows down the growth so much that people are going to be frustrated and hit out willy nilly. It is for the Indian citizens to decide whether the situation has degraded to an extent that they can't take it anymore.

[JE Menon]

>>Are you saying that status quo of the red tape and labyrinthine rules are ok?

Of course not. I'm saying it is irrelevant to the discussion about what has been done to Khobragade, which is the focus here. When you bring in the above question in this discussion, the implication is that since that is not OK, it's also OK not to sympathise with Khobragade's situation. To repeat the point, the sympathy here is not with Khobragade the person; it is with Khobragade the representative of India.

There are plenty of other threads to cut loose on how babus are oiseaules, etc.

[Vayutuvan]

Yes but what is all this "custodial rape" shape stuff? That is what people go through in US if they are arrested and it is not called "custodial rape" at least by a majority. What are you going to do about? If it is ok with voting tax-paying US citizens, then that is how it is going to roll.

I would say Krittika Biswas case was worse than the DCG case. If India had taken strong steps then do you think this would have happened?

If you think not, then this is a good start and some of us want India to do more so that Indo-US economic ties can be profitable to all the parties without indignities being heaped on the people working in the trenches.

If you think yes, then is it not time for the burocrats to go through some kind of post-event analysis and put in motion processes which would prevent any further incidents of this kind so that the powers that be on both sides have to stop whatever they are doing and deal with these crises which are going to occur more and more frequently then.

A few pages back I had a calculation that at most (very high upper bound) $100 million PA will solve the problem. If need be why not ask the diplomat/consular officer availing such perks to defray half or even a quarter of the costs? That way only those who are in dire need (officers with small children, disabled, etc.) or those who can afford will avail of the perk. Since India is becoming a destination for pleasure and/or medical tourism as well as business travel, the whole thing can be funded through increased visa fees.

[Gus]

Yes but what is all this "custodial rape" shape stuff? That is what people go through in US if they are arrested and it is not custodial rape at least by a majority. What are you going to do about? If it is ok with voting tax-paying US citizens, then that is how it is going to roll.

but but but...just cuz majority amirkhans are ok with it, just cuz we can't do nothing about it, just cuz it's the law or standard intake procedure in massa,

- does not mean others cannot call it what it is, as per their understanding - a custodial rape. that's how it rolls in india.

[Gus]

the DK case is becoming or is already a case, where people project their own issues or annoyances etc.

indian consular folks in US are callous and uncaring - DK deserved it and we should not care
indian babus are corrupt and bend rules for their own profit (adarsh) - DK deserved it and we should not care
indian govt does not care what happens to indians in foreign land - DK deserved it and we should not care
india is lawless - US law is the bomb and DK should be subjected to US law, because US law is the bomb and that's how things should be in india too
indians treat domestic help badly - DK probably did that and deserved what happened to her

thank god DK is a dalit and SR is a xtian. or else this would have quickly turned into a high caste hindooo doing caste oppression. oh dear god that would have been an endless stream of crap

[KJo]

It's but natural. People in India have a lot of gussa against politicians. Every one of them, maybe NaMo is exempt. If any of these guys get caught and jailed, people will rejoice.

Same way, the Indian consulates in the US treat us like crap. They have archaic rules and are unprofessional. I had some bad experiences with them just recently. Try as I might, I find it hard to sympathize when they get into trouble. DK strikes me as someone who used her Dalit connections and her daddy's pull to get to where she is. Her daddy is also behaving very odd, going on TV all the time, and then parading her around when she came back, and announcing that he will run for Lok Sabha elections. I think people are being played at least to some extent.

[Vayutuvan]

- does not mean others cannot call it what it is, as per their understanding - a custodial rape. that's how it rolls in india.

Anybody is free to call it whatever they want. It is of no consequence on the ground in the US. The only problem I see is that such a thing will not be taken seriously. That is beside the point and only dilutes the seriousness of what the US has done in both Krittika Biswas and Dr. DK's cases.

The crux of the problem is the US not upholding their international treaty obligations. The parallel is that the NPAs are screaming that India is somehow at fault for not upholding the obligations of NPT which they have not signed leave alone not ratifying it.

In that sense this is all just some time pass. Needless fulmination.

[Vayutuvan]

thank god DK is a dalit

If not, Adarsh issue also would not have come up in this context, right?

Here is the problem I see with shiv ji's (and possibly UB ji's 404) line of argument. Firstly there is this endless stream of invective of dhimmis this and dhimmis that dissing PIOs in preference to Indian elite. But then they are also dhimmis because they are not rising up against some of their government's draconian laws that are detrimental - only those that are detrimental, mind you, but not all that are draconian - to the same Indian elite.

All this to what end?

TANSTAFL.

[MurthyB]

Same way, the Indian consulates in the US treat us like crap. They have archaic rules and are unprofessional. I had some bad experiences with them just recently.

For the record, I have to mention that the Consulate General of India in San Francisco has given me, by far, the best experience of any consulate anywhere, over multiple occasions and at least 20 years of dealing with them, both as an Indian citijun, PIO, OCI etc. Compared to dealing with the racist a$$holes in the Australian embassy, Dutch embassy, French embassy, and even the Japanese embassy, these guys have been awesome. An injun friend of mine had to scuttle his trip to Bali because of the turd-like way he was treated by the Indonesian embassy. And let's not even mention the circus one had to go through to deal with the US embassy in Chennai, Paris, and other Ulan Bator-like places where you had to get up at 4am, go stand in line, and hope that a lathi charge wasn't on the schedule.

[KLP Dubey]

I will post a blanket reply to several comments in the thread above.

1) Some of the posters have stated that DK had no choice in the matter of the children's nationality. That is flatly wrong. From the citizenship act (relevant sections in bold):

http://indiancitizenshiponline.nic.in/c ... ipact1.htm

Citizenship by birth.-
(1) Except as provided in sub-section
(2), every person born in India,-

(a) on or after the 26th day of January,1950, but before the 1st day of July, 1987;

(b) on or after the 1st day of July, 1987, but before the commencement of the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003 and either of whose parents is a citizen of India at the time of his birth;

(c) on or after the commencement of the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, 2003, where-

(i) both of his parents are citizens of India; or

(ii) one of whose parents is a citizen of India and the other is not an illegal migrant at the time of his birth, shall be a citizen of India by birth.

Now the US may have a similar citizenship law based upon descent (through the father in the case). As an Indian citizen that is of no concern to me. As far as I am concerned the fact of the matter is that the parents chose US nationality over Indian. Pointing that out is not "xenophobia".

2) Somebody is citing "assumptions of Indian passport law" etc etc. There is no such assumption, and it has got to be pretty stupid if someone in the passport office is blindly assuming that DK has the same nationality as her husband when it is blindingly clear that she is an Indian IFS officer.

3) Regarding the rules of the Indian Foreign Service about marriage to foreign nationals:

a) The IFS has rules over and above those of the combined civil services (IAS+IFS+IRS etc).

b) The code of conduct for the civil services is available to the public through GoI websites online (and it says that any government servant intending marriage to a foreign national must inform in writing). However, it is disturbing that the IFS Conduct and Disciplines rules are not available to the public via MEA or another GoI website. If someone has the rulebook, they are requested to share it so we can all get full clarity on the matter.

c) As far as I am aware through a number of media reports claiming MEA sources (just google it), the rules are that:

- The IFS person wanting to marrying a foreign national must inform MEA in writing and there is a certain time period given to the MEA to reply.
-If the IFS person goes ahead with the marriage without waiting for reply, he/she is liable for removal.
- Even if the MEA approves, the stipulation is that the IFS person commits to the foreign national spouse taking Indian citizenship within 5 years.

If someone argues that the rules are indeed different from the above, please provide the source for your assertions. Some of the posters claim that the rules are not as stated above. I am open to being proved wrong, especially since the media reports could be from DDM types.

4) Finally, let me point out that I am highly disturbed by the mistreatment of Indian diplomats such as DK and am in full support of her in that matter. However, as I said in my first post on this subject, what disturbs me even more is the exposure of the incompetence of the Indian government and its various arms due to the DK affair. Enforcing the rules properly protects all Indians (including the diplomats) in the long run, and sends a "no-BS" message to other countries to think thrice before messing with us. Those who are complacent in the assumption that "we have well defined rules and they are being followed" are not being realistic. As we well know India has an excellent set of well-thought-out and comprehensive laws and rules in all areas, but has one of the poorest records of any country in propertly implementing them. If this ends up as being another "chalta hai" case, I wonder why it merits discussion in 100+ pages of this thread.

[Gus]

Anybody is free to call it whatever they want. It is of no consequence on the ground in the US. .

yeah..then spare us the explanations of how that's how it rolls it in US blah blah..

everytime some nonsense happens in US, there's an endless stream of explanations that usually have "that's how it is, it is the law, its not like india" etc.

it is not like people, at least in BRF, don't know these things already. it's not like the US is in the moon and what happens there needs to be explained to the rest of us earth people.

[KLP Dubey]

An injun friend of mine had to scuttle his trip to Bali because of the turd-like way he was treated by the Indonesian embassy.

Surprising. Indonesia has visa-on-arrival and it's been very smooth. Before my first trip to Bali I called up the embassy in India to check, and they were pretty friendly. Maybe your friend was applying for a specific type of visa not covered by VoA and the embassy guys fawked it up.

[Vayutuvan]

You asked for the explanation and hence I gave it.

But then this needless stirring up of emotions is clouding the real point which is that the US - I still think that this has emanated from USSD - has attacked the Indian constitution (sometimes this is considered a causus belly). We are asking what steps are being taken to prevent that from happening in the future for one and what steps are being taken to make the US see their mistake. Also, what corrective steps are being taken by the US to get an important relationship back on track.

We PIOs are just some sideshow - we neither have the numbers nor the clout to change the law in the US. Calling us dhimmis or fulminating against us is not going to get what you want.

Lots of BRFites know it and even lots of villagers in India know it too. Intelligence, general knowledge, and common sense are not the sole domain of a few DIEs. I still fail to see the point of your anger against me.

[vishvak]

This is about international relations and no less. That Indian diplomat was targeted many a times - arrested against immunity with NY style SoP(when hundreds of USA personnel in India aren't diplomats and not mistreated); attempts to bribe and coaxed to accept guilty plea bargain; arbitrary charges; millions extracted earlier from India similarly by targeting diplomats; - all this is not hidden. In fact all this seem to be part and parcel of USDoS procedures in new York where UN is headquartered! Seems any country that is a in partnership must go through this as part and parcel of 'international' friendship- please feel free to correct this if mistaken.

[Vayutuvan]

I also do not have any major complaints regarding the Indian consulates, barring a few little annoyances like being put on hold, ill-designed forms, unclear procedures etc. No big issue there.

[Gus]

I still fail to see the point of your anger against me.

that's because you are seeing anger where there is none.

[Vayutuvan]

Thanks. Let us move on.

[MurthyB]

An injun friend of mine had to scuttle his trip to Bali because of the turd-like way he was treated by the Indonesian embassy.

Surprising. Indonesia has visa-on-arrival and it's been very smooth. Before my first trip to Bali I called up the embassy in India to check, and they were pretty friendly. Maybe your friend was applying for a specific type of visa not covered by VoA and the embassy guys fawked it up.

This was about 7-8 years ago. Things have probably improved since then.

[saip]

It's but natural. People in India have a lot of gussa against politicians. Every one of them, maybe NaMo is exempt. If any of these guys get caught and jailed, people will rejoice.

Same way, the Indian consulates in the US treat us like crap. They have archaic rules and are unprofessional. I had some bad experiences with them just recently. Try as I might, I find it hard to sympathize when they get into trouble. DK strikes me as someone who used her Dalit connections and her daddy's pull to get to where she is. Her daddy is also behaving very odd, going on TV all the time, and then parading her around when she came back, and announcing that he will run for Lok Sabha elections. I think people are being played at least to some extent.

To tell the truth I personally never had a problem with the Indian embassy or consulates. In fact some years ago the Consulate in NY went out of their way to give a visa to my sister (an US citizen) even though when my BIL reached the consulate it was closed and when he knocked some one opened the door and when he explained the urgency (my mother passed away) they were kind enough to issue the visa.

The only problem I had was when I wanted a OCI card, I could not decide whether I had to pay $20 or $2000 in fines to get it (I did not renounce my citizenship when I became US citizen). Each consulate had different rules and different ways of calculating fines. After a few weeks things settled down and I got my OCI card through Travisa without a hitch and had to pay only $20 in fine.

On the other hand US immigration people behaved like oesholes in case of my brother. After he got a GC went back to India. Before he left he obtained a letter from the Immigration dept that he could return withing two years. But when he returned he was stopped at the airport and his GC was seized. It took him several years through the courts before he could get back his GC.

[Gus]

several years ago, when we were munnas in massa school, went on a road trip to vegas. on the way back, a friend slept on the wheel and car ran into a ditch and my best friend had a head injury and passed on the spot. we were in another car. i had to fly the next day to SF consulate and get the friends passport stamped as deceased, so the body can fly out to india. the consulate person processed it so i can fly back to make the arrangements. it was done in a matter of minutes, and i did not have the proper coroner's certificate etc that are required as per procedure. i did have a roundabout connection - a friend of a friend making a call and making a request to get this done.

would the same person act like a dick in another circumstance? maybe....but i sure was grateful that this was done painless that day.

[KJo]

Many years ago, I had to get some visa/passport work done and I was given a date of some 4-6 weeks. I asked the man if he could do it quicker because my flight was approaching and he absolutely refused and was brusque about it. Then behind him appeared a woman whom I knew, because she used to take the train with me and I heard her speak Kannada and I struck up a conversation and it turned out that her inlaws lived in my hometown. She recognized me and said what the problem was. I told her and she told the man "arre kar dena inka kaam" and he quietly wrote me a date ONE week from then.

The stupid BLS service was awful last year in my OCI transfer. These clowns don't work to make things better, they are as bad as any Govt office from the 90s. You should visit one of these offices to see the daily fights.

[KJo]

thank god DK is a dalit and SR is a xtian. or else this would have quickly turned into a high caste hindooo doing caste oppression. oh dear god that would have been an endless stream of crap

Why thank God for DK being a Dalit? When will we muster up the balls to tell America to F off and mind it's own business? Trust me, it will be a Brahmin next time, what will we do then?

[Amber G.]

Yes but what is all this "custodial rape" shape stuff? That is what people go through in US if they are arrested and it is not called "custodial rape" at least by a majority. What are you going to do about? If it is ok with voting tax-paying US citizens, then that is how it is going to roll.

Matrimc, you can't be serious!

Let me point out just a few obvious things for perspective.

First, it (strip search) is by NO MEANS SOP, if one gets 'arrested'. DK type case is EXTREMELY rare (that's why it became a big news item and it outraged so many).

More specifically:

The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution provides that a person has the right to be free from unreasonable searches. A person may not be subjected to a strip search just because that person is in custody. Rather, the police officer must have a reasonable suspicion about that person to justify a strip search

These are there for convicted criminals, being processed for lockup, but by any measure, it is extremely rare for a ordinary detainee (say DK type) who is just being held,..where there is no suspicion (or the arresting officer is a criminal). After 9/11 misuse has somewhat increased both in TSA (airport security) as well ordinary arrest, but still the cases like DK (where there was NO reason) are, still extremely rare.

Also, in US civil lawsuits as well as criminal code changes against strip searches have usually very successful. (More of this later)

The controversy comes because of a recent Supreme Court ruling (extremely bad IMO) which watered down some of the "reasonable suspicion" part. (..." courts are in no position to second-guess the judgments of correctional officials" )Still it to note that the decision was sharply divided (5-4) and the dissenting judges opinion was very stinging. According to a supporting brief filed by the American Bar Association, international human rights treaties also ban the procedures.

In any case, those who try to defend PB type's SOP argument, it should be noted that:

The Supreme Court did not say that strip searches of every new arrestee were required;

(it ruled, rather, that the Fourth Amendment’s prohibition of unreasonable searches did not forbid them. - -in all - cases

Also note that these procedures are still illegal( in a very strict sense - if there is no cause) in at least 10 states (if my counting is correct), and are prohibited (or are at odds with the policies) some federal authorities.

For perspective, the cases when, say a potential suicide west wearing person is caught, there is little controversy. Also when a DK type person is caught, no sane person will call it SOP. Most other cases fall in gray area which do not get publicity.

Remember the act is not SOP, it has been called "barbaric", "deplorable' and more by people like PM of India. (Even John Kerry was talking about his own daughters of DK's age and said that treatment was not right). (Note, that SD is now blaming PB (and prosecutors office), PB is blaming US Marshall's service - and US Marshal's service is telling that they have to do it because DK was going to be put with other detainees, without answering why it was necessary to put her with other detainees - or detaining her in the first place, for that matter )

***

[Amber G.]

I will post a blanket reply to several comments in the thread above.

1) Some of the posters have stated that DK had no choice in the matter of the children's nationality. That is flatly wrong. From the citizenship act (relevant sections in bold):

http://indiancitizenshiponline.nic.in/c ... ipact1.htm

Citizenship by birth.-
(1) Except as provided in sub-section
[<snip>

I don't think any one posted "DK had no choice" No one questioned the validity that if the children wants to have the Indian Citizenship it ought to be denied. I simply fail to see the point. (Or are you telling us that DK is less than "pure" if her kids CHOOSE not to apply for Indian citizenship when they become adult?)

Now the US may have a similar citizenship law based upon descent (through the father in the case). As an Indian citizen that is of no concern to me.

If it is of no concern to you than why this big rant? Sorry but it is not YOU (or me). US Law is what it is, US law! And it's not your (or mine) business to proclaim what the kids ought to decide ( to be proud citizen of which country).

As far as I am concerned the fact of the matter is that the parents chose US nationality over Indian. Pointing that out is not "xenophobia".

Here is where you are flat out wrong. Parents do (and ought) NOT choose the nationality, it is the children's right and privilege to choose. (Parents may influence the decision, but it is beyond pale for you (or me) to judge them.)

"Xenophobia" was perhaps a milder adjective. Perhaps "bigotry" was more apt.

With all due respect, in my humble opinion, judging DK by where her children were born, or what nationality they may choose, is simply wrong. There is simply no ethical or legal reason to judge others this way.

Hope it helps.

[Amber G.]

3) Regarding the rules of the Indian Foreign Service about marriage to foreign nationals:

a) The IFS has rules over and above those of the combined civil services (IAS+IFS+IRS etc).

Can some one provide a good link, or knowledgeable summery, of exact rules?

I am curious. Also exactly where OCI's fit in those rules..(I know an OCI can't vote, or run for parliament, but is allowed to pay smaller entrance fee - just like a Indian Citizen - visiting Taj Mahal )

[KLP Dubey]

I don't think any one posted "DK had no choice" No one questioned the validity that if the children wants to have the Indian Citizenship it ought to be denied. I simply fail to see the point. (Or are you telling us that DK is less than "pure" if her kids CHOOSE not to apply for Indian citizenship when they become adult?)

I do not understand what you are talking about. Your above statements are incoherent to me.

The children were ALREADY qualified to be Indian citizens from the moment they were born. I never said such a request should be denied. They were born in India to an Indian citizen mother, so they automatically Indian citizens. It is their "default" citizenship.

Minor children cannot be expected to voluntarily "choose" citizenship on their own, the parents do. After the children turn 18, they may decide to take advantage of their "US citizenship by descent". They are not at that stage now.

Again, the issue is why DK and husband took special pains to get US nationality for their children. An Indian IFS officer with children born in India would definitely be expected to get Indian passports for them, not US passports based upon the other parent's nationality. It is simply not done and is bad form at the very least, not to mention potentially violating IFS code of conduct rules.

If it is of no concern to you than why this big rant? Sorry but it is not YOU (or me). US Law is what it is, US law! And it's not your (or mine) business to proclaim what the kids ought to decide ( to be proud citizen of which country).

I said the US nationality law is of no concern to me in this case. However, it IS my concern if Indian foreign service people are engaged in converting their Indian-born children to other nationalities and potentially violating the code of conduct w.r.t. marriage to foreign nationals.

Tomorrow if an Indian PM, Minister, or MP marries a US national, has chlldren in India, and declares that he/she wants them to be US citizens and not Indians, should Indians support that ? I THINK NOT. If you think your children are better off as Americans rather than Indians given the choice, you should not be in Indian government service or representing the people of India.

I am not ranting - read my objective responses and if you have anything worthwhile to say in reply, do so.

Here is where you are flat out wrong. Parents do (and ought) NOT choose the nationality, it is the children's right and privilege to choose. (Parents may influence the decision, but it is beyond pale for you (or me) to judge them.)

Minor children are NOT in a position to understand the full ramifications of citizenship and nationality. They are free to choose after they turn 18.

With all due respect, in my humble opinion, judging DK by where her children were born, or what nationality they may choose, is simply wrong. There is simply no ethical or legal reason to judge others this way.

Hope it helps.

Sorry, this muddled response is not useful. I may agree in other "ordinary" cases involving a private Indian citizen who has nothing to do with Indian government or armed forces. However, I told you already:

1) In this case we are referring to an IFS officer who is expected to adhere to the code of conduct and display full loyalty to the republic of India, including decisions on citizenship of minor children born in India. So YES, it should be the concern of Indians. If you are not an Indian citizen, you are welcome not to show concern about it; however, who are you to question my concern about it?

2) There needs to be a clear message that India cannot be taken for granted, even by Indians including NRIs, as well as non-Indians including PIOs and OCIs. No IFS person should feel that they can take advantage of lax enforcement of rules for years, the MEA's tolerant view of an Indian IFS officer choosing to make her Indian-born children Americans (pure bad form at the least, if not much more in terms of conduct violations) - and then, when something goes wrong, to expect Indians and the government to rally behind him/her without any condition. There needs to be some clear-headed hardball played here, and it is not the concern of non-Indian citizens to provide advice on the matter.

3) I denounce your false assertions of "xenophobia" or "bigotry". I hope Indians reading this will not be fooled. It is perfectly OK to scrutinize what our government servants are doing, and demand certain levels of loyalty and conduct from our diplomats and civil servants. Indians need not adopt an overly tolerant approach, when clearly others do not share the same ideas. Some of these people strongly defend the US laws, but at the same time expect Indians to be cool with all sorts of questionable practices.

Finally, I do not need your help in this matter nor any other.