India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Vayutuvan]

AmberG ji: Yes, it is barbaric and yes it should not have been done. I think it is going to come back to SC sometime in the future. But thne it was an SC ruling and would stand until tested. Whether it is by a narrow margin and a strong dissenting opinion was recorded is besides the point for now. In case this judgement is tested, then it might become important. Are you suggesting that Dr. DK/India has the resources to make USSC take a relook at their ruling?

My stand had always been and still is that it is the US that fired the first shot by charging the DCG in the first place. All other things came in quick succession after that first misstep and there was no back down till Secy. Kerry met President Obama. Now to claim that the whole show has been managed by Safe Horizons and a few chota-mota babus in USSD and PB's office is giving a clean chit to the real culprits and scapegoating entities which are out of India's reach.

Dwelling on the barbaric treatment meted out to the DCG is "charvita charvanam" (chewing the cud - revisiting the same issue) and I don't have any interest in such a rehash.

On the other hand, the following issues have to be brought to the front now. An incomplete list in no particular order is as follows:

1. What steps are taken by MEA, India and USSD such that this is not going to repeat in the future?
2. Who are the people who let this play out for so long? Why? It is neither in the interest of India nor US. Aan answer to how to reduce if not eliminate their influence on bilateral ties.
3. Why are people who are asking some important questions being shut up through ridicule?
4. What is the status of reciprocity?
5. What, if any, steps are being taken to obtain justice (both a formal apology and large monetary compensation which is going to come out US tax-payers' pockets which will spur them to bring the barbaric treatment to the front) to indignities heaped upon Dr. DK?

Some people have asked "what do we need to do?". I have already given some calculations for the MEA to look at. Far less than $100 million PA would be enough to satisfy the needs of the IFS officers posted abroad. It is in their interest to look at the pay scales of IFS/IAS. If they are not getting paid enough, then raise their pay so that they do not have to worry about getting by on such a low salary when they are posted to a high cost of living country like US.

[KLP Dubey]

Can some one provide a good link, or knowledgeable summery, of exact rules?

I am curious. Also exactly where OCI's fit in those rules..(I know an OCI can't vote, or run for parliament, but is allowed to pay smaller entrance fee - just like a Indian Citizen - visiting Taj Mahal )

The IFS, IAS, etc are only open to Indian nationals, and OCIs are ineligible. As far as question of marriage of Indian civil servants to foreign nationals, it is immaterial whether the said foreign national is an OCI, PIO, or not.

[Gus]

Again, the issue is why DK and husband took special pains to get US nationality for their children. An Indian IFS officer with children born in India would definitely be expected to get Indian passports for them, not US passports based upon the other parent's nationality. It is simply not done and is bad form at the very least, not to mention potentially violating IFS code of conduct rules.
..
If you think your children are better off as Americans rather than Indians given the choice, you should not be in Indian government service or representing the people of India.

us passport is easy, it is the indian passport that may take special pains

it is a valid question, but are there laws/code of conduct to prohibit such officers from choosing foreign citizenship for their children? i doubt. in general we are not the type of people who write laws and regulations to cover all scenarios. typically we catch up after something blows up.

[Amber G.]

Dubeji (and others)...

I think the problem, and root of Dubeyji's confusion can be understood by this quote..

Again, the issue is why DK and husband took special pains to get US nationality for their children.

Let me just clarify a very basic and important point..

- DK's children (by US law) are US Citizens. PERIOD. (Actually "natural born")
- Does NOT matter if DK or her husband takes any "pain", Children are US Citizen.
- Does NOT matter what passport they get (or not get), Children are US Citizen.
- Does NOT matter if they are Indian citizens or get Indian passport..or choose to be a member of Bhilwara Panchayat... Children are US Citizen.
-Unless they renounce their US citizenship (and for that they have to be 18), they are US Citizens.

- It does not matter, if they are called less "pure" by anyone in brf.. they are US Citizens.

They are Americans. (They can be many other things - they can be soccer players, they can have Indian passports and Indians, they can be Hindu etc,) but they are US Citizens. .

Some got it backwards.. The kids do not become US citizens because some one choose to get a passport, or someone filled forum to become "naturalized" or some other forum,, (IMO this may be your confusion).. they are Americans at the time they were born. PERIOD.

It is absolutely inane to present things like "DK and husband took special pains to get US nationality for their children"

Dubeyji - I hope you will read the above, (really read). Hope it does help. The main point is, no one is "applying" or taking "pains", or even need to take any pains.. to get US citizenship for those children.

Now do you see, why I called it "xenophobic" etc...?

****
(BTW I know many cases, where US born children who were raised in India had Indian passports. They also have gotten US passport (which is very easy to get for US citizens) when they have to travel to US. (Legally this was explained to them that, US does not care if you get/have Indian passport or not, India did care and once they turn 21, they have to give up Indian passports, but before that they were able to live in India with no hassle and enter US as US citizens.)

[shiv]

Yes but what is all this "custodial rape" shape stuff? That is what people go through in US if they are arrested and it is not called "custodial rape" at least by a majority. What are you going to do about? If it is ok with voting tax-paying US citizens, then that is how it is going to roll.

Somehow I think you have made an expansive statement about what the US majority feel. I don't believe that the majority of people in the US feel that it is right or necessary to have cavity searches for minor offences (or even perceived offences) at the discretion of every police officer. If the majority feel that way it is dhimmitude all right - the have been made to forget the meaning of liberty, a word that is beaten into Americans as a self descriptor.

The fact that Americans do not call random and unnecessary cavity searches by police as "custodial rape" means nothing. It remains custodial rape. A rapist may claim that he simply made love, but that would be a false claim. But if people who get raped have been beaten into submission to such an extent that they believe that cavity searches are good, wholesome and American like apple pie and guns, then we are looking at a society that has been suppressed and dhimmified more than I imagined.

This has nothing to do with PIOs or Indian Americans who are too small a community, too recent as immigrants go, and restricted to too small a segment of American society to be able to claim much clout in fighting for liberty in America. Indian Americans have it much better than many American Americans for many reasons. Most have emigrated within the last 50 years. Most first gen Indian immigrants are probably still alive, if old. The majority are educated - the primary reason why they were allowed to enter. For the same reason they are wealthy and they retain strong contacts with mother India which gives them a sort of buffer that acts in many ways that others lack.

But I repeat that the America of 2014 is not the America of 1964. I find it fascinating that some accusations made by commentators in the west about turd world countries including India can be applied to the US. These comments were made in a different era, It was said that third world leaders (and other despots/tinpots) would resort to external wars to justify and divert attention from internal issues.

Back then it was different. A different generation of Americans fought their government and forced them to pull out of Vietnam and forced them to stop compulsory drafting of young people to fight mindless external wars. But after 9-11 the US government has taken all that back. The US government now fights external wars and tells Americans that external threats are so bad that Americans need to be happy with draconian methods like excessive force, suppression of liberties, cavity searches and snooping.

There is a generation of Indians in America who have seen that old America and are seeing this new one. Anyone in this new America who thinks he knows about liberty and thinks everyone is happy with cavity searches simply does not know about liberty and what people should be doing to fight for that liberty. And if people are not fighting the words dhimmitude and subjugation come to mind,

[UlanBatori]

Tomorrow if an Indian PM, Minister, or MP marries aUS Italian national, has chlldren in India, and declares that he/she wants them to be US citizens and not Indians retain Italian nationality/dual citizenship, should Indians support that ?

Enough of the citizenry have absolutely no problem with that, and have shown that via the ballot box repeatedly.

I THINK NOT. If you think your children are better off as Americans rather than Indians given the choice, you should not be in Indian government service or representing the people of India.

Apparently the Indian Electorate's collective wisdom is that you are the one who does not represent their wishes. In the 21st century. Also for the last 30 years of the 20th century. They seem to be able to judge people on their merits, or to agree with the PR of those people, and not be hung up about irrelevant personal details.

Just my observation, no point in throwing stones at me. I may disagree completely with the voters in that respect, but that is completely irrelevant. But I agree that irrational prejudices should not govern either. The issue is not "patriotism" ("the last refuge of a scoundrel", etc) and presumed Loyalty based on appearance, pedigree, color, gender, tribe, race, creed, caste etc but security clearance and conflict of interest. Many people in very sensitive positions have close relatives who are not of the same citizenship as they, and that has no effect on their reliability. On the other hand, the history of nations is rich with anecdotes of totally native-born, native-bred, elite from the greatest "families" being the worst scumbag traitors of all. I certainly hope the Indian IFS etc in the 21st century are ruled by basic sense in these things, not by "bhrasht" type tribal parochialism. And that they bug all the phones and computers of their employees, and depend on verification rather than stupid assumptions of "loyalty". Remember Morarji Desai's Cabinet of Whisky Bottles? All 400% Indian purebred POS.

Among us yak-herders, anyone who ventures south of the Bogdkhan Uul is automatically declared a traitor who has consorted with the Hans. Outcast. We burn his tent for heat in winter. So much easier that way. Thinking hurts brains that have been fried with the stinking smoke of suburban Ulan Bator.

[Amber G.]

^^^ By the way, our own (India, YES I am an American, as genuine as anyone else, but I am also an Indian, as genuine as anyone - so I called it "our") PM's children ( daughter and SIL) are US citizens, so was of ex Indian President.. so is ABV's goddaughter and her family... The list is so big that I personally know *many* american citizens whose parents have more sensitive posts in Indian establishment.

[KLP Dubey]

Amber G.,

Simply making assertions in bold type does not make them correct.

Clear-cut fact of the matter is that the two children are, according to the Indian Citizenship Act which I already posted, natural born Indian citizens by birth, born on Indian soil, to an Indian parent. And furthermore, you have ignored (naturally) the clear evidence I posted.

There is absolutely no problem whatsoever in getting an Indian passport for such children - I myself am aware of several ordinary cases like this. You cannot change that fact, and you are the one who is confused (or deliberately trying to hoodwink Indians into believing that these kids were Americans anyway!!).

The fact of the matter is that the mother, an Indian * and* an IFS officer, agreed to over-ride the "default" Indian citizenship available to her children and instead use the US nationality route arising from the father. That was the "back-tracking" that someone referred to. The couple had a clear choice and they decided on the US. You simply CAN NOT make people believe otherwise.

Now I may not even have a problem with their decision if this was a matter of a private Indian citizen. However, an Indian government servant, particularly an IFS officer (to whom certain rules apply), simply is NOT a private Indian citizen.

I really hope YOU read this carefully, instead of repeating the same twisted and nonsensical arguments. To repeat myself:

Tomorrow if an Indian PM, Minister, or MP marries a US national, begets chlldren born in India (and thereby the kids being CERTAINLY Indian citizens by birth), and then declares that he/she wants them to be US citizens and not Indians, should Indians support that ? I THINK NOT. If you think your children are better off as Americans rather than Indians given the choice, you should not be in Indian government service or representing the people of India.

Do you get it now ?

[KLP Dubey]

^^^ By the way, our own (India, YES I am an American, as genuine as anyone else, but I am also an Indian, as genuine as anyone - so I called it "our") PM's children ( daughter and SIL) are US citizens, so was of ex Indian President.. so is ABV's goddaughter and her family... The list is so big that I personally know *many* american citizens whose parents have more sensitive posts in Indian establishment.

Again posting irrelevant stuff. The PM's children became US citizens on their own through naturalization and other means. There are so many Indians whose children went abroad and became US citizens of their own accord through immigration etc. Those Indians may even have been government servants at the time that their children became naturalized in the US. That is not the question.

The ethical issue is deeper, and you don't seem to get it. Did Manmohan Singh, while being an Indian government servant, marry a US national and decide that the children from the marriage should be Americans ? NO.

Did ABV marry a US national and have children that he decided should be US citizens(and since when did a "goddaughter" become a family member, although that is besides the topic) ? NO.

Finally, how on earth are you an American and Indian simultaneously ? You are an American (by birth or naturalized, not sure) of Indian origin and you may have an OCI or PIO card. This is not a question of "genuineness", it is a question of your formal loyalty and whose interests you are ultimately sworn to represent. Please stop posting misleading information.

[UlanBatori]

The great thing about the "Bhrasht" system was that rationality had utterly no effect on it. U crossed the ocean, u an outcast. Q.E.D. Worked great.

[Nandu]

I hope the mods step in soon.

[Gus]

Dubeji (and others)...

Let me just clarify a very basic and important point..

- DK's children (by US law) are US Citizens. PERIOD. (Actually "natural born")

what you are missing is that - the kids can also have gotten indian citizenship.

the parents, DK included, made a conscious choice of not applying for indian citizenship and went for US citizenship. this is a fairly simple concept.

[Amber G.]

AmberG ji: Yes, it is barbaric and yes it should not have been done. .

It was ALSO CRIMINAL (IMO, but I let us wait for some time to see if people are held accountable) according to *many* US laws, regardless of some people's misunderstanding of USSC's ruling.

There have been many cases (some muchweaker than DK's- eg A woman who was strip searched after an arrest on a minor motor vehicle violation ) case where multi-million dollars were fined, (and criminal cases against the police-officer) after a strip search, and people learnt a lesson...including the city who hired those officers....If DK's arrest it self is judged illegal, US Marshal's will be in big trouble..(IMO, of course). Heck there was a class action suit settled for some 1.2 million dollars because the detainees did not have proper sink and toilets in the holding area.. and Commonwealth of Massachusetts agreed to pay more than $1.16 million dollars, in another class action suit for improper strip search in their one of the jails.

***

FYI, one of the most interesting and amusing case, and famous case (please check it out) was Tobey v. Napolitano(US Govt DOJ etc)

In this case - One of the kids from our local area -

Got in trouble, because he had US 4th amendment (It is unlawful to do such search) written on his chest...

Here is a Forbes story, worth reading..
Why You Should Think Very Seriously Before Expressing Political Views at Airport Security

[KLP Dubey]

Dubeji (and others)...

Let me just clarify a very basic and important point..

- DK's children (by US law) are US Citizens. PERIOD. (Actually "natural born")

what you are missing is that - the kids can also have gotten indian citizenship.

the parents, DK included, made a conscious choice of not applying for indian citizenship and went for US citizenship. this is a fairly simple concept.

^^Thanks. Some voice of sanity here.

Although, I want to again emphasize that DK would never have to APPLY for Indian citizenship for these kids. They are already Indian citizens BY BIRTH. They don't need to "get" Indian citizenship, they are born with it. This is not a grey area and it is clear as daylight according to Indian law. She only would have had to apply for Indian passports for the kids, just like everyone else in India.

Furthermore, the deeper issue is the point of view.

The US government would certainly consider these kids as US citizens. But more importantly, the Indian goverment would certainly consider these kids as Indian citizens. And last time I checked, DK was a member of the Indian government herself, so there is very legitimate question as why the US viewpoint was allowed to prevail in this case. And this is exactly why the IFS, MEA have the rules of conduct and discilpine that are supposed to cut off situations like this.

Even in the case of the IAS and other civil services, the very fact that you have to write to the government about your planned marriage to a foreign national, and wait for up to 1 year for the matter to be investigated, is obvious proof that it is not a routine matter.

I'm just amazed at the amount of pushback from some members about basic issues like this!

[Gus]

Somehow I think you have made an expansive statement about what the US majority feel. I don't believe that the majority of people in the US feel that it is right or necessary to have cavity searches for minor offences (or even perceived offences) at the discretion of every police officer. If the majority feel that way it is dhimmitude all right - the have been made to forget the meaning of liberty, a word that is beaten into Americans as a self descriptor.

i don't have first hand knowledge of american of 60s, but from what i read, i do think more people would be vocal against some of the stuff that gets a pass nowadays.

anyways, my understanding is that majority of the white middle class and up - have this idea that 'they are criminals and probably deserve that. i am not bothered because it won't happen to me'. and indians who join this middle class simply picks up these ideas.

i get a lot of 'that's how blacks are' from people who are just plain clueless on how the drug war, the felony disenfranchisement, the background checks that make them not get jobs etc..work in how things are the way they are now - black incarceration rates, recidivism etc.

[Vayutuvan]

Shivji I don't have much to say because I don't understand what your main grouse is.

[UlanBatori]

Gee! I hope Bray of PiBs or HerOnner come out with some new ishtatement. Only they can save us from killing each other...

Does it help to announce that an Indian court has cruelly forced Penguin Books to see completely voluntarily and of their own free happy will that a book written by American U. Chicago Professor (or po*n, I believe), should be withdrawn and turned into pulp. The alternative was that said professor would be arrested, tasered, cavity-searched, for plagiarism, blatant false sourcing, religious propaganda posing as "history", offending religious sensibilities, spreading hate, and selling po*n disguised as history.
U.Chicago professor's "brilliant work" on "history" exposed as pulp fiction
I think this is a attack on basic American Ack-e-dummic Phreedom and the basic right to sell p*rn to make a few $$ more.

[KLP Dubey]

The great thing about the "Bhrasht" system was that rationality had utterly no effect on it. U crossed the ocean, u an outcast. Q.E.D. Worked great.

I would argue somewhat differently. The "bhrasht" system, for all its other ills, was quite tolerant of many things (rightly or wrongly).

The great thing about the "gora immigration" systems, especially for brown men and women, is that you now have to strenuously proclaim your "genuineness" in not one, but two places.

[shiv]

Dubeji (and others)...

Let me just clarify a very basic and important point..

- DK's children (by US law) are US Citizens. PERIOD. (Actually "natural born")

what you are missing is that - the kids can also have gotten indian citizenship.

the parents, DK included, made a conscious choice of not applying for indian citizenship and went for US citizenship. this is a fairly simple concept.

I have been out of this discussion and I have not even read all the posts, but some points catch myeye and I have thoughts which I will post.

Ulan Batorji was right in pointing out that a husband with a job that allowed him to move with his diplomat wife is an advantage.

Now what about the kids? Let me post thoughts that go through the minds of hundreds of thousands of Indian parents whose children are born abroad or parents who may need to move from country to country. This is among the most commonly discussed topics. As long as children are less than 8 or 10 years of age they can be moved from country to country like one's luggage. But after that - as they approach senior school they require a degree of stability that allows them to be in one place even if one parent needs to move around.

Clearly this was a decision that Khobragade and her husband would have to make. Thinking about childrens' education comes naturally for Indians and it was on this very thread that someone posted a link that showed that Indian parents pay for their kids education, even in America. Now if any Indian or Indian American can recall any conversation at a social gathering in India or America. you find that India may be cursed or praised, the US may be cursed or praised, but the consensus always is that for education. America is better than India.

For Khobragade, having a US citizen husband meant that he could opt to stay in the US while she moved around. I think it would have been a no brainer to decide that US citizenship would be a better bet for her children's education.

[shiv]

Shivji I don't have much to say because I don't understand what your main grouse is.

Not a problem, but one does not have to have a grouse to post on BRF. At least as far as I am concerned. I hope you are not restricting yourself to posting grouses.

[Amber G.]

Dubeji (and others)...

Let me just clarify a very basic and important point..

- DK's children (by US law) are US Citizens. PERIOD. (Actually "natural born")

what you are missing is that - the kids can also have gotten indian citizenship.

the parents, DK included, made a conscious choice of not applying for indian citizenship and went for US citizenship. this is a fairly simple concept.

Gus I think you are the one who is missing the point.


As said before, DK can make a choice to get Indian passport or not (or US passport or not)
She can NOT take away (even if she tries) the Kids US citizenship. As long as one parent is American citizen at the time of birth, it does NOT matter what DK or her husband do, the kids are American citizen.
No one really "went" for US citizenship.. there was simply no need to go for it.

(By US Law). India, or DK or her husband can not take it away. The children can renounce it if they so desire later.

THIS IS THE SINGULAR POINT.
(Is not either /or situation .. It is NOT US vs Indian )

If you want to "fault" DK that she did not "apply for Indian passport" you can go ahead, but it makes no sense.. (I don't even know for sure if DDM's really know, for all you know is that kids do have indian passports - I have not seen any report which says that the kids do NOT have indian passports)

I don't know Indian laws for naturalization process, but I assume, if a person is born in India, the person has a right to be Indian citizen (provided one parent has Indian citizenship)..

(Important point here is, irrespective of if the kids have indian passports or not, they are americans (also )

Anyway last from me.

[saip]

I remember one of our BRFites had a similar problem. His child was born in US and he registered them as Indians at Indian Emabassy. He went to India and wanted to get visa for his child, but the US embassy refused to issue the visa and told him to apply for US passport. DK might have had practical difficulties.

[devesh]

Shivji I don't have much to say because I don't understand what your main grouse is.

Not a problem, but one does not have to have a grouse to post on BRF. At least as far as I am concerned. I hope you are not restricting yourself to posting grouses.

matrimc ji, this is the good doctor at his finest. be careful.

[KLP Dubey]

Clearly this was a decision that Khobragade and her husband would have to make. Thinking about childrens' education comes naturally for Indians and it was on this very thread that someone posted a link that showed that Indian parents pay for their kids education, even in America. Now if any Indian or Indian American can recall any conversation at a social gathering in India or America. you find that India may be cursed or praised, the US may be cursed or praised, but the consensus always is that for education. America is better than India.

For Khobragade, having a US citizen husband meant that he could opt to stay in the US while she moved around. I think it would have been a no brainer to decide that US citizenship would be a better bet for her children's education.

All this is excellent and indeed legitimate things to think about. It is well known.

Unfortunately, if you are in the IFS or Indian armed forces, you should not have this "luxury" of options. The choice should be (and IS, as properly enforced in the case of the armed forces): either choose Indian citizenship for the kids (and the spouse too must commit to becoming Indian), or leave the service and get a private job.

Now I wonder if people will start arguing that the Indian armed forces should relax this rule too! In my opinion, the IFS and the armed forces are equally "vulnerable" to compromise of national interest in this matter.

Being a member of the Indian government and consciously making a decision to override/not follow Indian law in favor of any simultaneously applicable foreign law, is - to my mind - an act of treason.

[Amber G.]

Just a minor point

The ethical issue is deeper, and you don't seem to get it. Did Manmohan Singh, while being an Indian government servant, marry a US national and decide that the children from the marriage should be Americans ? NO.

Did ABV marry a US national and have children that he decided should be US citizens(and since when did a "goddaughter" become a family member, although that is besides the topic) ? NO.

NO MMS or ABV did not marry a foreign national while they were Indian Govt servant. (For that matter ABV never married) but that is besides the point because --

I know quite a few people (and you can too, if you look hard enough instead of assuming your narative ) who were government servant, (or even more sensitive posts than DK - including govt scientists who were involved in Pokhran tests) who married "foreign nationals" including Americans..

And the kids, as I said, it is silly to put "and decide the children from the marriage to be american".. as I said before, if the children were born to American Mom, they don't decide..the kid, by accepted definition is "American". Please do not embarrass yourself by repeating such things.

Mentioning ABV's close family was simply to underscore the point that xenophobic fear of Americans is not there in sane Indian leadership. The family members do not stop becoming family members, simply because they have different citizenship.

[Amber G.]

I remember one of our BRFites had a similar problem. His child was born in US and he registered them as Indians at Indian Emabassy. He went to India and wanted to get visa for his child, but the US embassy refused to issue the visa and told him to apply for US passport. DK might have had practical difficulties.

This, to put it mildly, not uncommon.

[KLP Dubey]

I remember one of our BRFites had a similar problem. His child was born in US and he registered them as Indians at Indian Emabassy. He went to India and wanted to get visa for his child, but the US embassy refused to issue the visa and told him to apply for US passport. DK might have had practical difficulties.

Yes indeed, very good example and it is relevant here.

In the above case also: from the US POV the kid is US, whereas from the Indian POV the kid is Indian. Now if you go and ask the US, they will obviously deal with it from their POV as in the above case. That is how they efficiently protect their national interests.

The BRFite in question had the option (assuming he was a private citizen) that he could either toe the US line, or he could leave the US and raise his family elsewhere.

In DK case, she is not a private citizen, she is a member of the Indian government and particularly an IFS diplomat. Facing such a practical difficulty with integrity is part of the job that she is getting paid for. The solution was for the MEA to enforce the rules: either ensure that the kids are given Indian passports, the husband naturalizes to Indian citizenship, and DK gets posted to a different country; OR offer discharge from government service to DK and she is free to exercise any options she wants.

[KLP Dubey]

Just a minor point

The ethical issue is deeper, and you don't seem to get it. Did Manmohan Singh, while being an Indian government servant, marry a US national and decide that the children from the marriage should be Americans ? NO.

Did ABV marry a US national and have children that he decided should be US citizens(and since when did a "goddaughter" become a family member, although that is besides the topic) ? NO.

NO MMS or ABV did not marry a foreign national while they were Indian Govt servant. (For that matter ABV never married) but that is besides the point because --

I know quite a few people (and you can too, if you look hard enough instead of assuming your narative ) who were government servant, (or even more sensitive posts than DK - including govt scientists who were involved in Pokhran tests) who married "foreign nationals" including Americans..

And the kids, as I said, it is silly to put "and decide the children from the marriage to be american".. as I said before, if the children were born to American Mom, they don't decide..the kid, by accepted definition is "American". Please do not embarrass yourself by repeating such things.

Mentioning ABV's close family was simply to underscore the point that xenophobic fear of Americans is not there in sane Indian leadership. The family members do not stop becoming family members, simply because they have different citizenship.

Sorry Amber G, your logic is Lahori by any standards. Furthermore, past precedent (even if your "Pokhran test" examples turn out to be anything real upon closer examination) is NO REASON to continue with the same state of affairs. I am not embarrassing myself by repeating such things, I am clearly stating the well-known position of the Indian government on this.

Indians should understand that there are rules, and they need to be enforced properly, and in reciprocity. And in some cases, they need to be made stricter. Again this is a matter for Indians to debate. Your views may be welcome, but they are to be understood as being from a US POV.

You don't seem to get that. Your entire POV in this case is based upon US, and that is not admissible as far as my POV is concerned.

[saip]

I remember one of our BRFites had a similar problem. His child was born in US and he registered them as Indians at Indian Emabassy. He went to India and wanted to get visa for his child, but the US embassy refused to issue the visa and told him to apply for US passport. DK might have had practical difficulties.

Yes indeed, very good example and it is relevant here.

The BRFite in question had the option (assuming he was a private citizen) that he could either toe the US line, or he could leave the US and raise his family elsewhere.

If I remember he did not have a choice. He was working in the US and had to get back to the US and so he applied for US passport for his child. This was years ago and so I dont remember the name of the BRFite. When his child becomes 18 he would have the option to decide.

For all we know DK's kids also could be having both the Citizenships.

[Gus]

Gus I think you are the one who is missing the point.


As said before, DK can make a choice to get Indian passport or not (or US passport or not)
She can NOT take away (even if she tries) the Kids US citizenship. As long as one parent is American citizen at the time of birth, it does NOT matter what DK or her husband do, the kids are American citizen.
No one really "went" for US citizenship.. there was simply no need to go for it..

sigh...

are you saying that a US passport magically appeared at their doorstep?

CLEARLY, they had the option of opting for a US passport or an Indian passport for their kids and they opted for US passports.

Is this that hard to understand....

whether that is right or wrong or whatever..i actually don't care. i just thought i can add some clarity to KLPD and your discussion on this issue.

[Gus]

If I remember he did not have a choice. He was working in the US and had to get back to the US and so he applied for US passport for his child. This was years ago and so I dont remember the name of the BRFite. When his child becomes 18 he would have the option to decide.

For all we know DK's kids also could be having both the Citizenships.

he DID have a choice. he was an indian citizen (at least at that time). he could have chosen to pack up and live in india with his kids as indian citizens.

that is a hard choice and i am not one to judge somebody for that. but the fact is he did have a choice.

the US govt cannot force to give US passports to indians who are eligible for indian passports.

what next? the US will give passport to every eligible kid a passport forcibly and evacuate them to US? this is getting really silly.

[Vayutuvan]

Not a problem, but one does not have to have a grouse to post on BRF. At least as far as I am concerned. I hope you are not restricting yourself to posting grouses.

Touche sir. But as you can see I am not restricting to grouses only. Sometimes I have something witty to say (though others may not find it all that funny). Also cogent posts take more time than I have currently.

In fact 'tis tax preparation time. On top of that SHQ gets upset every time she looks over my shoulder and sees the BRF logo - not some emacs buffer or a manual. Then she immediately gives me some work to do.

[shiv]

I remember one of our BRFites had a similar problem. His child was born in US and he registered them as Indians at Indian Emabassy. He went to India and wanted to get visa for his child, but the US embassy refused to issue the visa and told him to apply for US passport.

Hmm - there is more India in America than meets the eye. This sounds like a scheme devised by the most convoluted Indian babu mind.

[saip]

Unfortunately the Indian journalists are lazy and blithely write without checking their facts. I know some journalist said both the DK's children have US passports and everyone is on her case because of that. Did any one hear DK's side of the story? Suppose she realized that her children wont get US visas because US considers them US citizens and will not issue visas and so opted to get US passports for them. May be they also have Indian passports. Has anyone asked her about it?

[Gus]

^ I had to think about that when my eldest who was born in the usa... getting an indian passport for a kid born in usa is not easy and it was really easy to get a us passport and i went for that. when i r2i'd it was easy to get a PIO and move to india. eventually i r2US'd but i would never say that i did not have a choice. i did. i just chose not to exercise that option.

[Gus]

Unfortunately the Indian journalists are lazy and blithely write without checking their facts. I know some journalist said both the DK's children have US passports and everyone is on her case because of that. Did any one hear DK's side of the story? Suppose she realized that her children wont get US visas because US considers them US citizens and will not issue visas and so opted to get US passports for them. May be they also have Indian passports. Has anyone asked her about it?

true. I did read that the US considers kids born in US as US citizens and insists on applying for passports instead of visas. the timeline on when the kids were born and when DK was posted to USA may be relevant here..

[Vayutuvan]

This sounds like a scheme devised by the most convoluted Indian babu mind.

You may not like this but massa babus are equally competent in setting up red tape.

[saip]

Gus: Yea he did have a choice. Throw up his career and go back to India and may be get a job, just to prove a point. Wow. Thats all I can say. BTW I know that person (when he narrated his experience) moved to India after making some money in the USA and AFAIK is successful in India.

In DK's case may she did not have a choice. US would not have given her kids visas (I may be wrong) and so opted for a US passport. Without knowing all the facts, why condemn her?

[UlanBatori]

The past hajaar pages on the Ishtrategic Diskussion oph Yoo-Ess-Yindoostan seems devoted to the pooch of what passport should have been given to some kids-e-diplomats. What next? 10 pages on what brand of condom might be used by EyeEffEss people to prevent contamination with pakidna? I think I'll go read the weather report for Ulan Bator instead: Cold yesterday, colder today, colder tomorrow. Global Warming at its finest.

[KLP Dubey]

Unfortunately the Indian journalists are lazy and blithely write without checking their facts. I know some journalist said both the DK's children have US passports and everyone is on her case because of that. Did any one hear DK's side of the story? Suppose she realized that her children wont get US visas because US considers them US citizens and will not issue visas and so opted to get US passports for them. May be they also have Indian passports. Has anyone asked her about it?

Actually, things are clear now:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140210/j ... 919760.jsp

These American children, along with Rathore, have continued to stay at the permanent mission to the UN even after Khobragade left for New Delhi to escape the clutches of legal action over her maid’s complaint about salary and other employment problems.
...
Indian establishments abroad are habitually and conventionally lax in security unlike US, Russian or Chinese diplomatic representations where a clear demarcation exists between classified or restricted areas and open sections.

In the US embassy in New Delhi, for example, even the two halves of the outer chamber of the ambassador’s office are designated as classified and non-classified.

For the last one month, the presence of Rathore and his children created an untenable situation where three unsupervised and unaccompanied US citizens had unfettered access to the entire mission building.
....

The ministry of external affairs has been squirming over its predicament because if it had asked Rathore and his children to vacate their flat in the mission, it was feared that Khobragade’s garrulous and activist father would have kicked up a fuss in public.

As for the kids having both US and Indian passports, that is expressly prohibited by Indian law. If you acquire a foreign passport, you must relinquish Indian passport. There are stiff penalties for the law-breakers. If DK has done this, she should be immediately fired and prosecuted. I think there is very little chance that she has done this.