India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[KLP Dubey]

The past hajaar pages on the Ishtrategic Diskussion oph Yoo-Ess-Yindoostan seems devoted to the pooch of what passport should have been given to some kids-e-diplomats. What next? 10 pages on what brand of condom might be used by EyeEffEss people to prevent contamination with pakidna? I think I'll go read the weather report for Ulan Bator instead: Cold yesterday, colder today, colder tomorrow. Global Warming at its finest.

Actually, no. DK's kids passport issue is only the result/outcome. The issue is the ethical and legal basis of how that happened. That is a serious issue regarding the conduct of the IFS diplomat and the MEA. Again, my main point on this discussion is how it exposes the gross incompetence, negligence, and lack of honor of the Indian government.

Drink less mare's milk and eat more fish.

[KLP Dubey]

Wow. Thats all I can say. BTW I know that person (when he narrated his experience) moved to India after making some money in the USA and AFAIK is successful in India.

In the case of a private citizen, it is understandable and fine. Nobody disputes that.

In DK's case may she did not have a choice. US would not have given her kids visas (I may be wrong) and so opted for a US passport. Without knowing all the facts, why condemn her?

That is where I believe your opinion is incorrect. An IFS diplomat is expected to follow certain standards and make honorable decisions. The facts have come out now. An IFS diplomat, when faced with a choice, took a decision to not follow Indian law and accept US law in the matter of children's citizenship. The question is why and how this was allowed to happen. And as a result, we have now seen other unacceptable things happening. For example, three Americans are being housed in the Indian UN Mission without any proper security arrangements.

The Indian media is also full of disgusting individuals. Earlier today I read another report which kept harping on the fact that DK would no longer be eligible for a green card since she has a criminal record in the US. The assumption of the writer is that DK married a US citizen with the objective of getting a green card and immigrating to the US while being an IFS officer. The country is full of incompetent, ignorant, spineless, and dishonorable institutions turning out human products of the same caliber.

[UlanBatori]

Its a complete red herring that is being dissected and stomped on. If properly reported and read, it will turn out that Indian diplomats obtain proper permission for everything, and that's that. It is useful to remember that this is a consulate, so chances are that they actually know a thing or two about rules for passports and visas, perhaps, horror of horrors, even more than we on BRF know. And as for US citjens walking around the consulate, well, go look inside NAL or DRDL on any fine working day, and count the number of phoren citjens wandering all over the place there. All this bellyaching about phoren citjens makes me remember the many times I have been in terrifying places as a foreigner.
OTOH, where people don't do anything except sit around with their thumbs stuck up their musharrafs, they get all self-inflated about Security.

This Alien wants to get inside the Center. What should I do?

[Amber G.]

The last time, I hope..

sigh...

are you saying that a US passport magically appeared at their doorstep?

CLEARLY, they had the option of opting for a US passport or an Indian passport for their kids and they opted for US passports.

Please do read, (really read) what I am saying.

NO, I am not saying US passport appeared at their doorstep (magically or otherwise). I am simply saying that they are US citizen. (One does NOT have to have a passport, to be a citizen in fact majority of Americans don't have a passports. -- only those who travel outside US).
(Majority of Indian don't have a passport either)

It is silly to think passport makes you a citizen. If you are a citizen you can get a passport NOT the other way around.

Is that too hard to understand? /sigh/

[Vayutuvan]

[That is how they efficiently protect their national interests.

It all boils down to money - basically the taxes Gotus can levy on inheritance - and custody of the children in the unfortunate event that both parents pass away while children are still minors. That's physical people draw of trust through which upto 2 million (I think 1 million from each parent) can be passed onto the children. Anything beyond that is taxed. There are executors and trustees etc. where the trustees get custody of minor children. It is very difficult if not impossible to have trustees who are only us citizens as Gotus would not want the children and the money to go out their control. The trustees who would take custody of children are usually the god parents who may or may not be executors. Something complicated like that as these trust lawyers charge about $200 or so for an hour of consultation. Also there is lot of paperwork to be filled too.

[Gus]

...

you are like a broken record.

the kids are eligible for both indian and us citizenship. the parents chose US citizenship over Indian. whether that is right or wrong is another matter and i am not judging DK on that. but they did make a conscious choice. that is not up for dispute or interpretation.

[KLP Dubey]

And as for US citjens walking around the consulate, well, go look inside NAL or DRDL on any fine working day, and count the number of phoren citjens wandering all over the place there. All this bellyaching about phoren citjens makes me remember the many times I have been in terrifying places as a foreigner.

Oho! Getting deeper in, are you ?

For instance inside the National Reconnaissance Office of the US. The Air Force Academy. Various NASA centers. The conference room deep inside Wright-Patterson AFB where they were discussing the operational readiness of a front-line weapons platform (room full of medals and ribbon-strung uniforms stuffed with Generals etc. Deep in the basement of the State Department, I mean at the Bottom of Foggy Bottom. In the Oak Ridge Labs where they counted warheads and neutrons for START.

I have been to many such places too, including several nuclear weapons facilities. In all cases, you first have to get a clearance. When you show up you get a badge which clearly demarcates your level of access. In the DOE nuclear facilities, there are different badges for US and foreign nationals (including permanent residents). The badge does not work in classified areas, and you will have a police car arrive in 5 minutes if you try to get into a restricted area. In other places, you can get into classified areas with a security clearance if you are a citizen or a permanent resident. It is not uncommon to see "foreign citizens walking around everywhere", but the system is properly managed so that there is no access to areas they shouldn't be in.

In the Centers for Disease Control where they train Satan Bugs (I suppose) and talked casually about the fact that the plague outbreak in Surat was most probably a biological warfare attack. The fighter direction room (and other interesting places) at the place on the US east coast where they, well, direct fighters. The missile places elsewhere.

I have been to CDC too several times and I know what the access levels are. You are trying to pass off these casual comments to make people believe you know all about this topic.

Whatever areas you got into as a "foreigner" must have been unclassified, or you had a specific security clearance. The point is there is a proper system in place which is enforced. If you are falsely bragging about having gotten into classified areas in US government estabishments without proper clearances, be careful of doing that on BRF. You could be reported and find yourself in serious trouble.

Now for your Indian exploits, your remarks below seem completely incoherent and I don't know what you mean. Moderators: I hope these kind of flippant comments below are being noted. They are not appropriate for BRF and could lead to serious implications.

In the most scary of these places, they never even checked my ID, just saluted (in two places) and laughed at another:

Sir, you didn't have to rush back home to get your ID card, we don't need to see it.

(As in, we know everything about you long b4 you got here). At the NRO, they gave me a microphone to wear, since they were going to videotape my description of the finer points of yak-herding, to 8000 of their agints all over the Duniya. I remarked:

Hey, ****, I guess they are sending out the video to see if we have been seen in Dagestan, huh?

b4 I realized that the mike was on. No problem, they just laughed.

OTOH, where people don't do anything except sit around with their thumbs stuck up their musharrafs, they get all self-inflated about Security.

This Alien wants to get inside the Center. What should I do?

If all you are trying to say is that the people in question in this case (DK etc) "must have got all the permissions", and the MEA "knows all the rules and procedures", then why the fawk is it that after all the brilliantly efficient issuance of permissions and following of rules; an Indian diplomat was humiliated and jailed, she had a fraud case slapped on her, the maid's family got through Indian immigration and disappeared in the US, and various US citizens are running around unchecked in the Indian UN mission ? Honestly, this is exactly the attitude that leads to Indians not being taken seriously anywhere.

[Amber G.]

Dubeyji,

Finally, how on earth are you an American and Indian simultaneously ? You are an American (by birth or naturalized, not sure) of Indian origin and you may have an OCI or PIO card. This is not a question of "genuineness", it is a question of your formal loyalty and whose interests you are ultimately sworn to represent. Please stop posting misleading information.

Sorry if you feel that way. Also sorry to burst your bubble, but I really don't care what you (or any person having your views) think about my loyalty or should I stop or continue to post.

Over and out.

[saip]

Unfortunately the Indian journalists are lazy and blithely write without checking their facts. I know some journalist said both the DK's children have US passports and everyone is on her case because of that. Did any one hear DK's side of the story? Suppose she realized that her children wont get US visas because US considers them US citizens and will not issue visas and so opted to get US passports for them. May be they also have Indian passports. Has anyone asked her about it?

Actually, things are clear now:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140210/j ... 919760.jsp

These American children, along with Rathore, have continued to stay at the permanent mission to the UN even after Khobragade left for New Delhi to escape the clutches of legal action over her maid’s complaint about salary and other employment problems.
...
Indian establishments abroad are habitually and conventionally lax in security unlike US, Russian or Chinese diplomatic representations where a clear demarcation exists between classified or restricted areas and open sections.

In the US embassy in New Delhi, for example, even the two halves of the outer chamber of the ambassador’s office are designated as classified and non-classified.

For the last one month, the presence of Rathore and his children created an untenable situation where three unsupervised and unaccompanied US citizens had unfettered access to the entire mission building.
....

The ministry of external affairs has been squirming over its predicament because if it had asked Rathore and his children to vacate their flat in the mission, it was feared that Khobragade’s garrulous and activist father would have kicked up a fuss in public.

As for the kids having both US and Indian passports, that is expressly prohibited by Indian law. If you acquire a foreign passport, you must relinquish Indian passport. There are stiff penalties for the law-breakers. If DK has done this, she should be immediately fired and prosecuted. I think there is very little chance that she has done this.

Do you have the relevant section and the act? They were born with two citizenships. Is it a crime then? I dont understand the legal doctrine.

[Amber G.]

...

you are like a broken record.

the kids are eligible for both indian and us citizenship. the parents chose US citizenship over Indian. whether that is right or wrong is another matter and i am not judging DK on that. but they did make a conscious choice. that is not up for dispute or interpretation.

One last time... It is inaccurate, if not outright SILLY to say "parents chose US citizenship over Indian."..

Please do read carefully what you are calling a broken record, - Parents can choose if they want to apply for a particular travel document.. they DO NOT choose US citizenship over Indian anything...

BIG DIFFERENCE ..

(IOW, just because, one american does not have (or choose not to have, like most Americans) a US passport one does not "un-become" a US citizen)

(Which passport DK choose to get or not get for her kids makes NO difference legally on kids US citizenship, per US law. IOW the kids are american (in all legal ways) and it does NOT matter if DK choose to get them a US passport or not.)

Hope this makes some sense to you. If not, I can not help. Last post from me unless there is specific, question.

****

In practice, if you are applying for a US Visa, and if the record shows that you are born in US, you HAVE to answer a line in the visa forum ..(date which you renounced US citizenship), so US born kids are not likely to get a visa stamp unless they can provide the document that they no longer have US citizenship. (they don't need a VISA to enter US anyway, if they never gave up that citizenship)

[KLNMurthy]

Same way, the Indian consulates in the US treat us like crap. They have archaic rules and are unprofessional. I had some bad experiences with them just recently.

For the record, I have to mention that the Consulate General of India in San Francisco has given me, by far, the best experience of any consulate anywhere, over multiple occasions and at least 20 years of dealing with them, both as an Indian citijun, PIO, OCI etc. Compared to dealing with the racist a$$holes in the Australian embassy, Dutch embassy, French embassy, and even the Japanese embassy, these guys have been awesome. An injun friend of mine had to scuttle his trip to Bali because of the turd-like way he was treated by the Indonesian embassy. And let's not even mention the circus one had to go through to deal with the US embassy in Chennai, Paris, and other Ulan Bator-like places where you had to get up at 4am, go stand in line, and hope that a lathi charge wasn't on the schedule.

Yeah, since it seems somehow to be a legitimate part of this thread to deliver the occasional verbal thapad to IFS officials in the USA, let me add that I have had dealings with Indian Consulate in SFO for the past several decades, and it was always a very very uninteresting experience--I put the passport & docs (filled up correctly and carefully) in the mail, along with a nice fat check (some will call it baksheesh paid to upper-caste officials, but I am told it is actually a fee of some sort, who knows), and less than a week later, passport comes back with needed stamp, or, as needed, new passport shows up. Never a variation on the theme. All very boring. Probably done that way to show off the upper-caste superiority of IFS babus, disgusting oiseules that they all are.

[KLNMurthy]

- does not mean others cannot call it what it is, as per their understanding - a custodial rape. that's how it rolls in india.

Anybody is free to call it whatever they want. It is of no consequence on the ground in the US. The only problem I see is that such a thing will not be taken seriously.

...

It is possible that "such a thing" is taken seriously in India, that dim unregarded country in the outer reaches of the galaxy of which the USA is the center, home to a mere billion or two humans.

Please, please, can that count, just a little bit, just this once?

[chandrasekhar.m]

Wish I took Shreeman saar's advice about trying not to be a keyboard warrior.

Anyway, from this discussion of birth and citizenship, I learnt something useful:
- If I apply for Indian passport for any future USofA born kids of mine, USofA might not always grant them a visa, if I ever took them out of the country as it considers them to be USofA citizens
- Citizenship != what travel document anyone possesses
- I am not wise or experienced enough to comment on what passport Devyani Khobragade and her husband should have applied for their kids

But, I was myself confused about where Devyani Khobragade's children were born. And having learnt from Amber Gji and UBji to search for and state facts , I looked to Chacha for an answer.
If anyone else also had that question, here is the answer.
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... miss-them/

Her children, Khobragade said, were familiar with India. “Both my children were born in India. I flew from Pakistan, where I was posted then, to Mumbai, for the delivery of my second child,” she said.

[Sri]

Yeah, since it seems somehow to be a legitimate part of this thread to deliver the occasional verbal thapad to IFS officials in the USA, let me add that I have had dealings with Indian Consulate in SFO for the past several decades, and it was always a very very uninteresting experience--I put the passport & docs (filled up correctly and carefully) in the mail, along with a nice fat check (some will call it baksheesh paid to upper-caste officials, but I am told it is actually a fee of some sort, who knows), and less than a week later, passport comes back with needed stamp, or, as needed, new passport shows up. Never a variation on the theme. All very boring. Probably done that way to show off the upper-caste superiority of IFS babus, disgusting oiseules that they all are.

Ditto for PIO cards for many friends in US. Quite routine and efficient and I remember one saying pleasant.

[Amber G.]

chandrasekhar.m - Yes, you are right, and it has been posted before in brf. The reason, I believe all the discussion is that the father (DK's husband) is NY born, US citizen. Thus kids have a right to be US citizen.

[KLP Dubey]

chandrasekhar.m - Yes, you are right, and it has been posted before in brf. The reason, I believe all the discussion is that the father (DK's husband) is NY born, US citizen. Thus kids have a right to be US citizen.

Amber G,

Your characterizations are not correct. You are simply not seeing the issue here.

The issue is NOT about the "children's rights" (as a matter of fact they have "rights" to be Indian OR US citizens based upon the respective POVs of India and the US, and they can change their citizenship upon reaching adulthood if they like).

The issue is regarding which POV prevailed and the ethical thought+action process of the Indian parent in question. Unlike an ordinary case of a private citizen, the reason why we care about it in this case is because the parent in question is an Indian diplomat and is required to apply Indian laws and follow the directives of the MEA and IFS code of conduct.

In this case, the POV which should have prevailed is clearly the Indian one.

The mother is an Indian citizen and IFS diplomat, and therefore should have unquestioningly applied Indian citizenship law FIRST AND FOREMOST in her thought process. That law says the children are Indian citizens by birth, end of story, irrespective of any foreign nations who may have similar claims.

Having established that, she should then have taken commensurate action and obtained Indian passports for the children (she would NOT need to obtain any special Indian citizenship certificate since the children are Indian citizens by birth). Questions of "convenience" should not arise. If this process caused great inconvenience and hardship, she should have been discharged from the IFS and taken up a private job.

However, the reality and result are different. The two kids have US passports at the moment and have been presented as US citizens at both US and Indian embassies. This is unacceptable from an Indian POV. All these questions have been raised in the media on many occasions.

The father (US citizen) is not the primary focus of the above issue. Of course, there are also all the other issues regarding DK's marriage to a foreign national and the requirements associated with that.

Again, all of these are being discussed because they expose incompetence and possibly a larger pattern of much more serious compromises of Indian interests vis-a-vis the US.

[KLP Dubey]

Do you have the relevant section and the act? They were born with two citizenships. Is it a crime then? I dont understand the legal doctrine.

I already posted it in a previous post in the thread (along with link).

Many people are born in circumstances that allow them to be "claimed" as citizens of more than one country.

The issue is that the mother of the children is an Indian diplomat and should have strictly applied only the Indian citizenship law which is first and foremost in deciding the nationality of these children.

We are sending IFS officers to other countries to protect Indians citizens' rights and ensure that Indian laws are applied correctly to Indian nationals (including themselves) in foreign countries.

[amit]

It boggles the mind to understand the kind of strident posting and logic being used here. Let's assume DK is the most corrupt person in the world. Let's assume that she was/is angling for US citizenship and that is why she contravened rules and got US citizenship for her children. Let's assume that the IFS is nothing but a bunch of retards who bend rules like an old boys club.

Now tell me how does all that mitigate the fact that the Indian Deputy Consul General was put through hell for a petty charge. Does it matter what kind of person DK is in this matter? Does it matter if the IFS babus are corrupt bend rules etc? Are some esteemed posters trying to say that Amir Khan did what it did because DK is corrupt and - add adjective here - and IFS is run by a bunch of - add adjective here?

What does anything else other than the facts of the case matter in this discussion? I would like these posters to do a thought experiment. Try to recall when was the last time Khan Saab arrested a lady diplomat, subjected her to various humiliations and a cavity search - which under India's new amended Rape Law amounts to custodial rape - and then blanked her with a $250K bail and very reluctantly let her go? When was the last time that any country - including the tip pots and Izlamic zealots - did something similar to diplomats from any country?

I'm sorry anyone who tries to bring up all this rubbish about children's citizenship, Adarash scam, IFS babudom's alleged inefficiency etc, in my book, either don't understand the gravity of the situation or are trying to do a very sophisticated thread hijack. For ****'s sake there's a time, place and thread for all that discussion. This is not the place.

Please don't forget the fact that DK represents something more than a private individual - she represents the country and an attack on her in her official capacity is an attack on Bharat. And she employed SR in her official capacity, otherwise SR would not have had an official Indian passport with her medical insurance and plane ticket paid for by GoI.

[amit]

It is interesting to note that the last case of alleged underpayment in the US was that of the Mauritius Amby. That was a civil case.

Here's the gist:

The Mauritius ambassador to the U.S. has been fined in federal court after paying his Filipina housekeeper just $1,000 a month to work six days a week.
His Excellency Somduth Soborun was fined $5,000 on Monday in a Newark court. The ambassador took a plea deal and also agreed to a $24,153 restitution payment to the woman.
The 61-year-old ambassador brought the woman to his $1.2million home in Englewood, New Jersey from the Philippines after arranging a visa. {Note: he must have gone through the same process that DK went through to arrange a visa for SR with exception that the Filipina maid must have had an ordinary passport while SR had an official Indian passport}
She cleaned, did laundry and took care of the dog for 12 hours a day for the equivalent of $3.57 - far below minimum wage of $7.25.

From here.

How different is this from the DK case? So why was DK's case criminal as opposed to civil? I think folks, instead of wringing hands and shaking heads, about the commissions and omissions of DK and IFS babus should ponder on this point. [Hint: the magic word is trafficking]

[JE Menon]

Gents, once again. This thread is about Indo-US relations, and right now that is exercised by the Khobragade affair. It is not about Khobragade's moral position, but her legal one. It is also not about her personal privations in the matter, but about the implications in terms of her position as a representative of India.

Those who want to discuss her moral position or her personal integrity, and juxtapose that with their own moral posture/integrity/assessment of patriotic tendency are free to do so - in the appropriate thread.

Further nonsense along these lines, will result in the appropriate treatment.

[UlanBatori]

and various US citizens are running around unchecked in the Indian UN mission ?

I will just respond to that one gem of Shri Dubey's. I bow to his declared expertise on all US and Indian Classified facilities, deeply indeed, and note his declaration that if (a mere yak-herder) got into those places, it must have been only into UnClassified areas, and they keep the Classified Stuff carefully hidden from yak-herders and Experts walking around with appropriate Badges (which of course close one's eyes, ears and nose). Aha! What a new concept! I am SURE we shouldn't post that here, or the Indian Consulate in NYC will discover that for the first time - the idea that secret stuff is not left lying around where unauthorized people may see it. Like maids who are about to scoot. Or DUI chauffeurs. Janitors. Goldfish Bowl Maintenance Experts (the only thing I KNOW they needed in that Consulate, based on my Telephone Espionage of 30 years ago, see a prior post)

And if said yak-herders are implying that they got into Classified Areas, then the admins should promptly ban them, since posting such "flippant remarks" (yes! light-hearted banter should be immediately punishable by execution. ).

OK, let's take the comment at the top.
1. How did a mediaperson see a "US citizen" wandering about "everywhere" inside the Indian Consulate in NYC (note: Consulate, not Embassy) including the Classified Areas (if any)? Did said person have such top Security Clearance to be hiding in the pakistan there? Is it permitted for Indians with Security Clearance to post what they saw inside Classified areas, in newspapers the next day? tsk-tsk! this is what happens when the Admins don't monitor these newspapers, hain?

2. Do Indian Consulates routinely leave the doors between Classified and UnClassified sections open for children to race through, whooping and chortling, like at most desi parties?

3. So WHO were these "US citizens" so casually allowed to "have the run of the place"? Let's see: Mata Hari 1: Age Six. Equipped with a James Bond camera-pen-recorder crayon set, no doubt.
Mata Hari 2: Age Three. Equipped with a wireless satellite link and satphone, transmitting with the Quantum Teleportation Code-Cracker Box and the Super adhesive Peppermint gum wireless microphone bug to stick under the Consul's toilet seat.
The Wine-Taster. OK, but I doubt that he was allowed everywhere, he's just too big to be able to crawl under the Top Security Filing Cabinet.

And OH, YES! We should believe that desi media article about "three US Citizens having the Run of The Place" and all the Loyal, Patriotic Indian Diplomats standing (sorry,sitting, why would they stand?) around with their thumbs up the same places, watching said Aliens wander in and out of the Classified Cabinets. Spilling Root Beer on Top Secret Eyes Only Documents like menu for Saturday's chai-biscoot-samosa ebhent with the local real estate agint or the invitation to next Monday's lunch at Pierre's on 6th Avenue.

And then there comes the ominous threat of the RETIRED IAS Aphsar "blasting" anyone who might dare suggest that unauthorized ppl should not go into Classified Areas. Awesome! So the security at the Mission is entrusted to such incorruptible, upright IFS officers? Who see a crime being committed, and immediately ask:

"Oh wait! That is the 6th coujin of the neighbor of the 7th coujin of the Sultan of Ulan Bator. I BETTER NOT say anything!!"

With such people guarding India's secrets, as the song goes:

Noooo body does it, better!
Keeeeping all my secrets safe tooooooonite!

India is safe indeed.

Anyone else see the link between that news report and the one where "Nirupama Rao and others are enraged that DK did not board the afternoon AI flight"? Remember the Arshak filing explaining WHY she did not take that flight?

Of course I would not expect people to see such links, when they are busy being such patriotic loyal experts and all and guarding the Indian Consulate from 3-year-old Mata Hari-2!

[Ashok Sarraff]

I remember one of our BRFites had a similar problem. His child was born in US and he registered them as Indians at Indian Emabassy. He went to India and wanted to get visa for his child, but the US embassy refused to issue the visa and told him to apply for US passport. DK might have had practical difficulties.

This, to put it mildly, not uncommon.

I have that experience. I wanted to have Indian passports for my US born kids as a genuine deshbhakt. The procedure for getting Indian passports was not clearly mentioned on the website and even the consulate folks were not clear about it. When I called them up, the afsars were extremely surprised to hear that I wanted Indian passports for my kids and asked for ten thousand affidavits that I will never seek US citizenship/passport and have no evil intentions etc. They simply did not want to issue Indian passports to my kids. I ultimately gave up after trying for a few weeks. Now I have members with three citizenships in the family.

[shiv]

I have that experience. I wanted to have Indian passports for my US born kids as a genuine deshbhakt. The procedure for getting Indian passports was not clearly mentioned on the website and even the consulate folks were not clear about it. When I called them up, the afsars were extremely surprised to hear that I wanted Indian passports for my kids and asked for ten thousand affidavits

Thanks for sharing this interesting experience. To me it only confirms stuff that I have believed (and stated every now and again)

Too many Indians believe that India is so bad that no person who leaves India for the west will ever want to return. I did mention somewhere on this thread that people asked my why oh why on earth I returned to India from Bilayat. Clearly this belief extends to embassy staff right up to policy making level where they cannot imagine a situation in which anyone might not want to remain in the USA forever as a US citizen.

It might be hard to accept, but Indians, possibly just the educated Indians would willingly work in less than optimum and near-slave like conditions simply to follow the idea that living abroad is invariably wealthy nirvana. In fact it isn't - and this can be confirmed from noting the experiences of hundreds of thousands of Indians who have returned to India despite acquiring the right to live and work abroad.

As usual, the government will be the last to catch on.

[panduranghari]

^ Shiv Saar,
I have emailed NaMo directly about the possibility of many Indians returning home when the economic turmoil in the west makes it hard to sustain the life that they were used to.

He has not yet replied back about what he thinks about this issue. Of course I am writing him based on a speculation and he does not need to reply to speculations. I was just trying to give him a perspective where not every migration is one way.

Another thing I do find of interest is - when a third world person migrates he/she is called an immigrant while a first world person migrates he is called an expat!!

[shiv]

Another thing I do find of interest is - when a third world person migrates he/she is called an immigrant while a first world person migrates he is called an expat!!

That is because the turdworlder is not expected to return home, while the fartsworlder is expected to go back.

On this board I don't know how many people might be tickled (positively/negatively) by this information, but many of the concepts that Arvind Kejriwal talks about ground level democracy were first observed and expounded by an Amrika returned NRI in Bangalore who eventually ended up advising the Gujarat government. I mean Ramesh Ramanathan.

[JE Menon]

Ashok Saraff,

Similar situation. I have two half-European kids who got EU state citizenship on birth. Only option is OCI. They can't vote or own agricultural land, but all else is cool. Didn't try to get OCI for wife (100% Euro) at the time, although possible, because it was more complicated and may have taken longer to get for the kids as well. So now it's just the kids with light blue OCI booklets (and me of course). Go for OCI. Next best thing to the dark blue passport. Wasn't too hard to get it. One week. After a bit of toing and froing to start with.

[Ashok Sarraff]

<OT>
JEM, yes, I got OCI for kids so travel to India is easy now. Thanks for the concern though. It get's chaotic in international travel and immigration transit sometimes with different visa requirements and line-ups for people with different nationalities and PR status.
<OT>

[CRamS]

Guys, did any of you watch Arnab's show last night on US amby Nancy Powell meeting with Modi? The debate as usual was a shouting match, but more disgusting is the extent to which India looks to US for deliverance. First, those traitors who were colluding with US imposing the ban on Modi, were now "disappointed". Kurshit compared 2002 riots to holocaust and begged US that it would not deal with Nazi criminals, but how come they are willing to deal with Modi. All this of course made me puke, but what disappointed me though is why was ModiJi so willing to meet Nancy Powell. Why did he not play hardball?

[rgsrini]

^^

Everything I have typed below is hearsay. I have neither read up on US citizenship laws, nor have personal experience on this.

As far as I know, the problem is with the US laws. As soon as the child is born, the US citizenship is forced on the child (of non-diplomats) whether you get a passport or not. US citizenship laws does not allow parents to renouce the citizenship rights of the child. The Child can renounce it at the age of 18. There is no restriction in Indian laws to obtain a Indian citizenship, even if your child is born abroad. There are several children born in the middle east to Indian parents, who are accorded Indian citizenship everyday.

Even if the parents circumvent the citizenship issue, by somehow obtaining an Indian passport (which I think could be illegal under US laws, elligible for buy-one-get-one-free cavity search), there may still be siginificant difficulty in getting a US visa for the child, if you are planning on living there for a while, or even returning at a later date. I have heard that US procedures are not able to process a US visa for a child born in the USA.

So I would hesitate to place the blame on Indian processes and laws without additional verified information from knowledgeable folks (like immigration attornies). If they don't ask for proofs and documentation, they may be abetting you in breaking the US citizenship laws.

[negi]

Iirc this was Unkil's 3rd attempt so NM did make them wait, however as far as playing hard ball is concerned fun will start if and when NM becomes the PM. Iirc when Bush went out and Obama took over the reigns one of the things which Bush told Obama to watch out was for a more assertive India .

[saip]

That is what I did not understand about this Shri Kurshit's rant. It is none of his business to comment on Modi and his visa. Using the same standards most congress leaders should be denied visas to USA. Why even Presidents of the USA would hypothetically be barred from US visas!

Whatever happened to "Me against my brother, me and my brother against the clan. etc...' Bedouin proverb.
UB, what is the equivalent in Ulan Bator?

[saip]

Iirc this was Unkil's 3rd attempt so NM did make them wait, however as far as playing hard ball is concerned fun will start if and when NM becomes the PM. Iirc when Bush went out and Obama took over the reigns one of the things which Bush told Obama to watch out was for a more assertive India .

Wikileaks had also dealt with the situation if Modi should become PM of India.

[Mahesh_R]

..... as far as playing hard ball is concerned fun will start if and when NM becomes the PM......

I am sorry to say this but as far as I see NM might protect our interests compared to current goi but trying to play hard ball based on past exp is too much to expect...at most he will start US relations on a clean slate and will act-react accordingly...
Time has the best answer...let us wait and see....

I would be very happy to be proved wrong by NM.....

[ramana]

Folks last three pages have been filled up discussing DK's and members childrens passposts and other non-related topcis. Please stop and no more discussion on this topic.
Thanks, ramana

[negi]

Mahesh sir we all opt for a change primarily based on HOPE , whether it works or not is usually not in our hands . Sorry sounded moronic but so are most of my posts

[Mahesh_R]

.... whether it works or not is usually not in our hands .....

satya vachan sirji...

[Amber G.]

Meanwhile ..
US visa applications rise 20 per cent in January

Visa processing at the US consulate in here registered a 20 per cent growth in January this year, compared to the year-ago period. Other US visa-processing centres in India, witnessed a similar trend, according to US officials.

In 2012-13 (October-September), about 700,000 visas were processed; the US expects this to increase by 10-15 per cent in the current financial year.

Notably, this is despite the Devyani Khobragade episode and the subsequent diplomatic stand-off between the two countries. The Khobragade incident involves the arrest and strip-search of the Indian diplomat by US marshals in connection with alleged visa fraud and lying to US authorities about the salary she paid to her housekeeper.

Daniel Gedacht, chief of non-immigrant visas at the US consulate here, told Business Standard: “During US fiscal October-September 2012-13, over 215,000 visa applications were processed at the Mumbai office alone. In January, it surged by over 20 per cent. By the end of the current US fiscal, we expect a further increase in processing of visa applications compared to last year in the Mumbai office. All efforts are on to process visa applications in a seamless manner.” Gedacht was speaking on the sidelines of a seminar at the US consulate.

Gedacht said the Khobragade episode was not impacted visa applications by Indians.

Gedacht’s views were echoed by Julia Stanley, minister counsellor for consular affairs at the US embassy in New Delhi. ....
<snip>


Manoj Gursahani, president, Visit USA Committee down played Devayani Khobragade episode and said it has been a business as usual. ''More and more Indians are applying for the US visas. The trend will continue in the times to come,'' he opined.

Ashwini Kakkar, founder president, Visit USA Committee- India said even the cost of 10 year US visa is Rs 10,880 as compared to a five year UK visa which costs Rs 53,700, the value provided by the US visa is almost tenfold compared to the UK. ''The United States is fast emerging as a value destination full of rich and unique experiences,'' he added.

[Amber G.]

Ashok, JEM, shivji and others - (Ramana - hope this is not OT as this is relevant to some excellent ontopic points )
From what I have seen, about a dozen cases in my extended family/friends, this is generally what happened.

(Of course, with a few variations in actual details).

(Also excluding those (who really wanted no complications), they went to India to have a child, making sure that both the parents retained their Indian citizenship- or never came to US in the first place.. )


In old days (before 80's when the Indian laws were a little forgiving for people under 18)

- Child born in US.
- Have the birth registered in the nearest Indian Consulate. (Making sure of proper documentation that both parents were Indian Citizen)
- Have the baby entered in one of the parents passport (or get a Indian Passport for the baby)
(One can correctly say that the child does not have any other passport)
- Get American passport later on, if there is travel.
- The child (in some cases - not all) had both the passports, though considered illegal by some, people looked the other way in practice. Entering India with Indian passport (No visa), staying there.

(In case, the person has to travel abroad, used Indian passport, except in the case when the child visited US -- in that case the Indian passport was used to exit India (because US passport had no Indian Visa), and US passport was used to enter US (because Indian passport had no US visa) )

- When the child turned 18, he has to choose and surrender the other passport /citizenship.

***

Now, since a key word changed (*all* citizen) in law concerning holding two passports (ie even if you are not an adult it is more serious -- according to Indian Laws - US does not care). Also with OCI (or even with PIO) the hassle for US passport holders in India is gone so - most people I know

- Register the birth at the consulate (some times)
- Get US Passport /OCI
- Child decides (when he turns adult) where he wants to live, and with what citizenship.

***

The way the Indian Law stands now, it is unclear like mud, how parents can get an Indian passport for a minor US(born) child. The child is not the parent's property and so a parent can't renounce the child's citizenship. The parent can fudge (or lie) by hiding the fact (eg not getting US passport and/or not telling the truth on Indian passport application) but that is dangerous. (Note that, If a parent got an US visa on the behalf of such a child on an Indian passport and came to USA, the parent is actually committing a VISA fraud - may even be subjected to jail. --- something the Einsteins should know before they pontificate.

***

UBji - excellant post. (BTW is yak-herding a tenure track position? ..tomorrow herrOnner may speak, any rumors among yaks?)

[UlanBatori]

AmberG: There have been two desi media articles citing deep inside knowledge of the MEA/IFS/Consulate-e-NYC. Both are utterly anti-DK. The first claimed that Nirupama Rao etc were p.o.-ed at DK, and how DK backed off at last moment and refused to board AI afternoon flight etc. We know how nonsensical that rumor was, based on Arshak's submission to the court. The second is this one where they are that DK's buddy and two kids "have the run of the place" and how this is an atrocious violation of Security etc. Also brings in UK as one of the feared interferors.

Both suggest intense personal hatred/resentment against DK. Which brings up an interesting question: Was the initial complaint re: SR initiated from within the Consulate? Maybe the scammers at the SD/BDS thought the Consulate would backstab DK? Anyway, I think the Amby/Consul needs to look into this and weed out his organization. There's some serious poison there... What a shame!

[KLP Dubey]

Folks last three pages have been filled up discussing DK's and members childrens passposts and other non-related topcis. Please stop and no more discussion on this topic.
Thanks, ramana

Ramana,

I have already stopped posting on this issue, since most of the other participants don't seem to get why it is important. Some posters are spending time explaining why some families prefer to get US passport for kids etc etc, but that wasn't my point. In this case it is the thought-process and actions of an IFS diplomat (not the "person named DK") and her MEA overseers that are a cause for concern.

That doesn't mean I am accusing DK personally of "corruption" or "negligence". It doesn't seem like some members understand the difference between analyzing root causes, and fault-finding/witch-hunting. Also I am not preventing anyone else from carrying on a discussion of Bharara's case in NY and its (de) merits - which I agree is also important to expose.

My opinion/stand is simply that the root cause of these troubles (both with the "visa fraud" case and with DK's family-related issues later) is ultimately the lack of proper oversight and procedure on the Indian side. This might be hard for some to swallow, but it seems inescapable.

Foreign governments will always be trying to "play tricks" like Preet Bharara decided to. Rather than respond frantically ad hoc to every such crisis, rather we should be protecting ourselves systematically and not leaving gaps for exploitation.

UlanBator:

I'm sorry, your post is not worthwhile for me to respond to in detail. Your flippant, "it's always been like this, see how it is in so many top-secret US places, you're silly and know nothing" attitude is exactly the cause of downfall. It is not your technical knowledge, seniority, or how many such places you have seen that is important here, it is your attitude. Disasters and crises like this occur due to a pervasive culture of such attitudes. I personally find your approach distasteful, but you can say what you want and am sure there will be folks to appreciate your posts.

I will not post further on this, but I am fairly confident my stand will be vindicated sooner or later. Good day.