Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[Singha]

it cannot be , because we have nowhere near the density of artilley or motorized forces to create and exploit breakthroughs.
people shiver at mention of 100 gun concept , but in the end stages of WW2, they had amassed some 400 tubes per km of the breakthrough zones and were worried that was not enough, thinking of how to get to 600.

[TSJones]

it cannot be , because we have nowhere near the density of artilley or motorized forces to create and exploit breakthroughs.
people shiver at mention of 100 gun concept , but in the end stages of WW2, they had amassed some 400 tubes per km of the breakthrough zones and were worried that was not enough, thinking of how to get to 600.

...the trend is for pin point accuracy not just massed fire. also you have all weather fighter bombers that you didn't have at the end of ww2. not sure you need that amount of guns on a modern battle front. ....pin point accuracy...shoot then scoot.

[Vipul]

Govt buys non-AC tanks, draws CAG fire.

India's main-battle tanks, the Russian-origin T-90S, are without any airconditioning. Apart from crew discomfort, this is "degrading" the sophisticated fire-control systems, thermal-imaging sights and missile firing mechanisms of the tanks due to their prolonged exposure to heat and dust conditions.

The latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Tuesday, has fired a salvo at the defence ministry and the Army for signing deals worth Rs 9,083 crore with Russia for 657 T-90S tanks, and concluding another Rs 330 crore contract for transfer of technology to indigenously produce another such 1,000 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, without providing for the critical air-conditioners.

"Ignoring the recommendations of the trial team (which tested the tanks in Russia in 1999), the MoD procured the tanks in 2001 and 2007 without ACs, rendering the fleet vulnerable to degradation of sensitive components," said CAG.

The T-90S fleet, as reported by TOI earlier, has grappled with glitches in its missile and thermal imaging systems right since its induction after India first ordered 310 of these tanks for over Rs 4,087 crore under a February 2001 contract with Russia.

With the next order for 347 tanks in November 2007 and the indigenously-produced tanks also beginning to roll out subsequently, the Army has till now inducted about 800 such tanks. All are without ACs despite the MoD and Army belatedly realizing the desperate need for them.

"The tanks are basically meant for the western sector with Pakistan. Temperatures in the Thar desert can soar to even 50 degree Celsius. The tank commanders usually keep the tank cupola or hatch open," said an officer.

In June 2009, the AK Antony-led defence acquisitions council had approved the acquisition of 1,657 ACs to equip all the tanks at a cost of Rs 597 crore. But the project is yet to materialize.

India, incidentally, had gone in for the T-90S tanks since Pakistan was inducting T-80UD tanks from Ukraine as well as 'Al Khalid' MBTs developed with China's help, and the indigenous Arjun tanks were then nowhere on the horizon.

[NRao]

TSJ ++1.

And!!!

How can anyone ever not use "network" in modern warfare?

A paid article from our dear friends up north

Fire Assignment Optimization of Network-Centric Artillery Combat Based on Genetic Algorithm

and, here is another:

Jul, 2013 :: IDF Artillery Corps Revamps for New Roles, Missions

Israel’s Artillery Corps is revamping weaponry, doctrine and institutional culture to transition from a supporting actor in maneuvering war to a center-stage performer of precision, standoff attack.

No longer the saturation-centric force that fired off 170,000 rounds to little effect in the 2006 Lebanon War, today’s Artillery Corps aspires to “one-shot, one-target” accuracy. It is transforming itself, officers and industry experts here said, for network-enabled roles and missions, including targeted killings and even urban war.

“Artillery comes in mass, but the future, the not-too-distant future, is one shot, one target,” said Brig. Gen. Roy Riftin, the Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) chief artillery officer.

New weapons, an expanding digital C4 network that links artillery to armor and infantry, and upgrades to existing inventory are driving new doctrine, operational concepts and a rewritten mission statement.

With network-enabled UAVs to replace traditional fire control officers to direct fire from increasingly accurate guns and extended-range rockets, Israel’s Artillery Corps is positioning itself to share in operations formerly reserved for airpower.

“It shouldn’t be only the Air Force or, to a much lesser extent, the Navy, that destroys targets from standoff range,” an Army officer said.

In addition to precision standoff attacks against fixed targets, the Ground Force officer said combined arms warfare will soon be able to deal with time-sensitive moving targets some 40 kilometers away.

“Because our firepower is so significant, we can allow ourselves to take on additional missions, such as targets of opportunity,” said the IDF’s chief gunner. “These targets pop up quickly and then disappear. But if I’m fast enough and precise enough, we can effectively destroy them with the first round or the first rocket.”

The corps’ proposed mission statement and accompanying doctrine will be presented to IDF brass this month in the run-up to General Staff deliberations on its latest five-year spending plan, dubbed Teuza (valor). It is expected to relegate its traditional close-support mission for maneuvering forces to second-tier status while accenting destroying enemy targets through precision standoff attack.

In parallel, the corps is finalizing what it calls Fire2025, a strategic investment plan for firepower that is precise yet flexible for use across the operational spectrum. The Artillery Corps and Israel’s Ground Forces Command are lobbying to include key elements of Fire2025 in the IDF’s Teuza spending plan for 2014-2018.

Top priorities include:

■ A new acquisition program to replace 50-year-old M109 howitzer guns.

■ Precision guidance kits for its inventory of 155mm shells

■ A new vehicle-mounted tactical radar to be co-located with its autonomous Keshet recoil mortar system.

■ Replacing cluster munitions with a unitary charge, GPS-guided dispersion munition for launch from the M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS).

■ Additional Elbit Systems-developed Skyrider tactical UAVs to expand from battalion- to brigade-level “eyes in the sky.”

■ New, environmentally friendly smoke shells to replace current 155mm shells containing elements of legally permissible, yet image-damaging, phosphorus.

But given prescribed budget cuts and projected institutional resistance from the Air Force and Navy, industry executives said the Army should expect an uphill slog.

“If we can detect the exact location of targets, add smart fuses that precisely navigate regular [155mm] projectiles and a new generation of longer artillery tubes, then you’ll be looking at a real revolution in the fires arena,” said retired Brig. Gen. Shmuel Yachin, a former defense research and development director who coordinates land systems programs at Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).

IAI and Jerusalem-based BAE Systems Rokar are competing to equip standard 155mm shells with precision navigation kits.

IAI’s Top Gun is in advanced full-scale development, while Rokar has conducted “dozens of firing tests” on its Silver Bullet, a company source here said.
Digital Fire Support Officer (FSO)

After almost three years of nearly continuous tactical UAV operations, the corps is embracing the concept — co-developed by Elbit and the IDF’s Ground Forces Command — of digital FSOs to designate targets for infantry, armor and its own fire battalions.

First tested last spring with the corps’ Golan Brigade, the digital FSO concept is envisioned as yet another layer of the Elbit-developed Tsayad Digital Army Network.

Initial results from those tests are being applied to developing rules of engagement, military and industry sources here said.

“Instead of sending in fire control officers, we send Skyrider, our eye in the sky, which knows how to create targets and also to direct fire,” said Boaz Cohen, Elbit’s vice president for land and C4 systems.

“Once we gain connectivity, through the [network], among all ground force elements, it means every tank in the arena can also serve as a kind of digital FSO. If the tank sees the target first, it just pushes the data backward to the battery, which will quickly close the loop with one-shot accuracy,” said Cohen, a brigade commander in the IDF reserves.

Dan Peretz, vice president for research and development and business development at Israel Military Industries (IMI), said the IDF can achieve Global Positioning System accuracy at relatively low cost through kit upgrades to existing weaponry.

“The combination of GPS accuracy and network-linked sensors creates flat earth during the day and at night. It gives them the ability to change their role in the fight,” he said.

Riftin said he hopes to implement the digital FSO concept before his term ends in 2015.

Even before then, the corps expects to deploy environmentally friendly “good old gray smokers,” under development at IMI, an officer here said.

The new smoke rounds will supplement those containing elements of white phosphorus “that are acceptable under international law, but didn’t photograph well” during their extensive use in the December 2008-January 2009 Cast Lead war in Gaza.

And by 2014, the IDF Artillery Corps expects to deploy its first battalion of the Romach (Lance), a precision, MLRS-launched rocket equally suitable against single buildings or open areas.
Maneuvering Firepower

By the end of next year, the corps hopes to receive four prototypes of Humvee-mounted tactical radars, developed by Elta Systems, to be co-located with the 120mm Keshet recoil mortar system made by Elbit.

The new system will operate akin to the US Army’s AN/TPQ-48 radar, which was deemed unsuitable for IDF requirements, sources here said. Once integrated into the IDF’s digital network, the system will provide protection to maneuvering forces, perhaps even in urban battles.

Cohen of Elbit said his company is developing a specific application to connect the Keshet system, also known as Cardom, into the digital network. Once all of the building blocks are in place, he said the system would be able to deliver fire from any battlefield platform or sensor.

“Anyone who has a target will be able to distribute the information to the Keshet mortar system, and the target will be acquired in seconds,” Cohen said.

The IDF’s top brass has not yet decided if the Keshet maneuvering system will belong to the Artillery Corps or the infantry.

[vivek_ahuja]

...the trend is for pin point accuracy not just massed fire. also you have all weather fighter bombers that you didn't have at the end of ww2. not sure you need that amount of guns on a modern battle front. ....pin point accuracy...shoot then scoot.

How can anyone ever not use "network" in modern warfare?

Oh! Oh okay. My bad.

I guess I was mightly mistaken about the whole thing.

You see, I had naively assumed that the 3000+ soviet-era T-series tanks in the largest tank army in Asia had something to do with the soviet deep battle concept. That it was based on the idea of swamping and overrunning the enemy with more tanks than he has anti-tank missiles. But now that you have told me that the 250 Arjuns are in fact the real carriers of the network-centric philosophy, my concerns are allayed.

Um...we are replacing the T-series tanks with the Arjun tanks, right?

What? What's that you say? We are capping the Arjuns at 250?

Oh...

[Aditya_V]

But whatever, it is clear that the Arjun has been shatfed by an import lobby involving probably by Arms Agents, Politicans and the MOD Babus, Army procurement, Media who ran campaigns and found all sorts of reasons not to induct the Arjuns in large numbers in favour of the T-90. They have effectively crippled our Armour strike corps.

This has to be publically admitted and we need an order of atleast 500 arjuns, 155mm catapults based on Arjun.


Remember, the early 2000's media reports crtiticing Arjun A/c stating that it will make soldiers weak and an unnecessary waste of money?

People are proclaimed as saints have made been part of this decesion makinf set up apart from the original 300 tanks.

These motivated people are now totally exposed and must be made to pay for thier motivated campaigns to stall Arjun and limit it to 124 tanks and anther possible 124.

Hell Arjun-1 without the Driver and commanders night vision would be much more useful

[Nikhil T]

Govt buys non-AC T-90s, draws CAG fire

NEW DELHI: India's main-battle tanks, the Russian-origin T-90S, are without any airconditioning. Apart from crew discomfort, this is "degrading" the sophisticated fire-control systems, thermal-imaging sights and missile firing mechanisms of the tanks due to their prolonged exposure to heat and dust conditions.

The latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Tuesday, has fired a salvo at the defence ministry and the Army for signing deals worth Rs 9,083 crore with Russia for 657 T-90S tanks, and concluding another Rs 330 crore contract for transfer of technology to indigenously produce another such 1,000 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, without providing for the critical air-conditioners.

"Ignoring the recommendations of the trial team (which tested the tanks in Russia in 1999), the MoD procured the tanks in 2001 and 2007 without ACs, rendering the fleet vulnerable to degradation of sensitive components," said CAG.

The T-90S fleet, as reported by TOI earlier, has grappled with glitches in its missile and thermal imaging systems right since its induction after India first ordered 310 of these tanks for over Rs 4,087 crore under a February 2001 contract with Russia.

With the next order for 347 tanks in November 2007 and the indigenously-produced tanks also beginning to roll out subsequently, the Army has till now inducted about 800 such tanks. All are without ACs despite the MoD and Army belatedly realizing the desperate need for them.

"The tanks are basically meant for the western sector with Pakistan. Temperatures in the Thar desert can soar to even 50 degree Celsius. The tank commanders usually keep the tank cupola or hatch open," said an officer.

In June 2009, the AK Antony-led defence acquisitions council had approved the acquisition of 1,657 ACs to equip all the tanks at a cost of Rs 597 crore. But the project is yet to materialize.

India, incidentally, had gone in for the T-90S tanks since Pakistan was inducting T-80UD tanks from Ukraine as well as 'Al Khalid' MBTs developed with China's help, and the indigenous Arjun tanks were then nowhere on the horizon.

[merlin]

With the T90 saga, I hope IA does not find out in a real battle that the emperor has no clothes. But I'm afraid that is what they are heading for. But hey, who are we to bash the IA right? What goes of my father if IA folks die, right?

[sum]

In June 2009, the AK Antony-led defence acquisitions council had approved the acquisition of 1,657 ACs to equip all the tanks at a cost of Rs 597 crore. But the project is yet to materialize.

Say what? So we dont have ACs in any of our MBTs yet?

[Aditya_V]

Only the 124 Arjun-1 will have A/c systems

[Sanku]

Only the 124 Arjun-1 will have A/c systems

Arjun does not have a/c AFAIK, it has cooling jackets for crew, and non a/c airflow based cooling for electronics.

[rohitvats]

Only the 124 Arjun-1 will have A/c systems

No. They don't have the a/c and that is the beauty - or absurdity - of it all.

The Arjun electronics were made from day 1 to withstand the temperatures in Thar desert. IIRC, in 2006 trials, Arjun electronics went bonkers because OEM had set the temperature for electronics as per European theater. This was rectified for Indian scenarios and there have been no problems on this front. Also, remember that Arjun turret has much bigger internal volume than T-90.

The biggest problem with T-90 is that where do you fit the fvcking a/c? There is no room inside of the tank turret and the damn thing will have to be fitted outside - where it will make the tank glow like a Christmas tree on enemy night vision devices. Same goes for the APU which they're trying to fit onto the tank.

The IA was finally forced to run to DRDO to develop the cooling system for the T-90 after the Russian solution was found to be inadequate.

[Austin]

Just chanced upon this via google chacha ..has some history of T-90 and operators

T-90 — a refreshed machine for Russian Army

FWIW.speaking to some one in the know it seems the additional 235 T-90 tanks we ordered recently over the 1657 T-90 would be of MS standard for NE Deployment

[sattili]

The IA was finally forced to run to DRDO to develop the cooling system for the T-90 after the Russian solution was found to be inadequate.

Rohit, one noob pooch. In Aero India 2003 I have seen a T-72 turret mockup in DRDO stall which displayed the Air conditioning and cooling systems developed by them. I vividly remember an aircon compressor suspended from the roof. Did IA adopt that system for T-72? or they also run without an aircon.

Added later: Found this picture of ECU (Environment Control Unit) and APU Mfged by a private company Sidwall on the Militaryphotos site (credit for the pic: Kunal Biswas)
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost7043847

[Singha]

pin-point accuracy is not cheap - the infra need to acquire, distribute info on the grid and position these shooters with the right PGM ammo is quite complex and needs lot of co-ordination that a good old soviet style rolling barrage did not acquire..all the big guy Zhukov had to say was "now comrades now..."

though we had a lot of tanks they are not organized for most part as "shock armies" well supported by masses of SP artillery(we have none) and mobile SAM and IFV mounted infantry to launch deep breakthroughs into the enemy rear areas. even our so-called strike corps are not fully mech as has been discussed umpteen times before. the soviet army also had airborne division strength forces well supported by IL76 and AN22 lifters, we have one bare parachute regiment.

we are in no position to overwhelm TSP with fire and speed, let alone whatever PLA can amass during a buildup in tibet with superior artillery, c3, rockets and air backup.

bare minimum to scare people we need
- 4 airborne brigades with proper airlift and eqpt (2 north, 2 for east)
- 4 strike corps (1 for TSP, 3 for Cheen)
- huge improvements in towed , SP guns, way more Pinakas
- a comprehensive domestic PGM suite for IAF with tens of thousands of weapons ready and stockpiled (not low 100s of each kept to strike a PLA breakthrough from ghaziabad to delhi )..USA has stockpiled/ordered some 50,000 JDAMs alone and equal or more nos of GBU39 SDB to get some idea.
- large amts of helicopters and gunships to tear up the PLA formations in depth
- GMTI sensors 24x7

and we need a supportive PM and a 'creative' army chief like late Sundarji...not politically handpicked candidates.

[vic]

One Prahaar salvo is equivalent to 1000 WW II shells fired from 100 guns. The technology is moving. USA phased out 203mm and 175mm Guns. Navy phased out heavy Cannons and Indian Navy is concentrating on 127mm caliber for it's heavies. Heavy 155mm howitzers are also going out and their role is being taken over by MBRLs.

[merlin]

Heavy 155mm howitzers are also going out and their role is being taken over by MBRLs.

Any links for that?

[abhik]

...USA has stockpiled/ordered some 50,000 JDAMs alone ...

They infact built the 250,000th JDAM last year. An average of over 16,000 units per year. And thats just JDAMs. And the ubiquitous Paveways, SDBs and the more fancier maal to get the real scale of their PGM arsenal.

[TSJones]

A 6 gun arty unit can ruin the enemies' schwerpunkt from 15-18 miles away. WIth the new anti-tank shells, the enemy's tanks' engine compartments are highly vulnerable from above. A 6 gun arty unit can lob a couple of dozens shells in no time, then scoot to a new location before the enemy's resonse barrage can find thier location and return fire. Is this easy to do? No. But with the proper communications, the proper ammo, and practiced agility of the arty unit, it is doable. And if you wanna win, you better be able to do it.

[vivek_ahuja]

A 6 gun arty unit can ruin the enemies' schwerpunkt from 15-18 miles away. WIth the new anti-tank shells, the enemy's tanks' engine compartments are highly vulnerable from above. A 6 gun arty unit can lob a couple of dozens shells in no time, then scoot to a new location before the enemy's resonse barrage can find thier location and return fire. Is this easy to do? No. But with the proper communications, the proper ammo, and practiced agility of the arty unit, it is doable. And if you wanna win, you better be able to do it.

Since when did this become an argument of technological ability?

In the Indian context, the PM has clearly stated that we must:

Cut our coat according to the cloth

So while the world can move towards all the uber-cool tech you are quoting, the Indian army will have to make do with its 3000+ T-series tanks and bare-strapped arty pieces. When offered an obviously much more tech-advanced, crew-friendly and survivable tank like the Arjun, they decide to cap it at 250 instead.

No, the IA has made it's battle concept very clear by "cutting its coat according to the cloth". And this coat involves swarming the enemy with enough tanks and hope he runs out of ammunition before killing all our guys so that the surviving tanks can win the day. All the high-tech stuff is far too limited in quantity to make a large dent in this philosophy.

[Aditya_V]

Only the 124 Arjun-1 will have A/c systems

Arjun does not have a/c AFAIK, it has cooling jackets for crew, and non a/c airflow based cooling for electronics.

Ok My Bad

[srai]

Lots of detailed Arjun Mk.II close up photos:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... 2014/page8

[Manish_P]

A very humble question/request to the Mods

Would it be possible to have a separate thread for the Arjun, to give it it's well deserved due like the Tejas

[Singha]

...USA has stockpiled/ordered some 50,000 JDAMs alone ...

They infact built the 250,000th JDAM last year. An average of over 16,000 units per year. And thats just JDAMs. And the ubiquitous Paveways, SDBs and the more fancier maal to get the real scale of their PGM arsenal.

no wonder UK and france ran to papa to get more rocks after their inventory of "few hundred each" PGMS ran out over libya. morale of story - just having the delivery platform itself is not enough. one needs ample stock of smart munitions to implement paradigm shift, else go old-school and 100gun with millions of rounds stockpiled like soviet union.

our problem is we are neither as old school stocked up as the soviet union, or as PGM heavy as USA. we occupy a weak niche in the middle somewhere both in the air and in the ground...just as UK and France does...we cannot pursue high intensity usage war for more than a couple weeks. the russians will expend their 1st and 2nd line of ammo, then run back to the Urals, dust off some millions of WW2 era shells put in grease and mothballs in some caves and run back to continue the fight. likewise the chinese and noko have their own production infra and burrows for the mid level kit.

[member_20453]

^^^

Very true, Prahaar/Pragati atleast assuming 5 launchers (6 missiles) per battallion i.e 30 missiles and 5 Battallions per regiment we speak of 150 missiles ready to launcher per missile with atleast 3 additional reloads i.e 600 missiles per regiment, I think around 1 regiment deployed at the very least deployed with eventually 6 Strike Corps (2 for PAk and 4 for China) i.e 6 regiments we speak of a Prahaar inventory of around 3600 missiles , Pinaka MK-2 however can have a bigger foot print, all Corps can have a 1 Pinanka Regiment, assuming a future strength of 16 corps and a similar battallion (5 launchers) and regiment (5 battallions) structure as a Prahaar regiment, we have 60 missiles per Batt and 300 per regiment ready to fire and 3 addtional reloads we have 1200 missiles per regiment multiplied with 16 corps we have just under 22000 missiles..hmmm thats some serious dhoti shiver.

[Singha]

it was reported during the 2nd chechnya war, when standoff SP artillery and air bombardment was used to blast the chechen rebels they were really using bombs stored in mothballs from a long way back. it is said they never throw anything away. likewise the israelis allegedly have a lot of old armour and their jugaad solns under heavy grease just in case a lot of reserve formations need to be activated for a last ditch defence of their land.

[Austin]

AFAIK Ever bomb guided or unguided have guaranteed life where it can be used and is safe to use ..beyond that its more of a threat to the people using it than to the enemy.

I would be surprised if they used old bombs which didnt have useful life left ....generally armies all over dispose off such ammo safely.

[Austin]

Tata Leads Development of Indian Infantry Combat Vehicle

[member_28482]

Any Update on Arjun Mark 2 User trails?

[Philip]

Just take a look at this "tank graveyard" hundreds upon hundreds of Soviet era tanks with their ERA ,etc.,in Kharkov/Ukraine probably available for a few roubles ,or cost of transportation! It could sort out the problem of spares for o9ur old T-72s needing repairs.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... me=2840066
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/arc ... 40068a.jpg

[suryag]

they were junk then and junk now

[Philip]

They are indeed junk,but there's wealth in junk.Just look at the amount of ERA tiles on these tanks!

[Sanku]

Have people stopped to think -- that T 90s are the ONLY piece of modern equipment that IA has over last 10 years ?

Thank heavens for small mercies.

[Pratyush]

[jamwal]

Have people stopped to think -- that T 90s are the ONLY piece of modern equipment that IA has over last 10 years ?

Thank heavens for small mercies.

Pinaka, Smerch ?

[Sanku]

Have people stopped to think -- that T 90s are the ONLY piece of modern equipment that IA has over last 10 years ?

Thank heavens for small mercies.

Pinaka, Smerch ?

Well one of three then. Still, thank heavens for small mercies.

[jamwal]

Indigenous artillery locating radars. Was it Rohini ?

[Mihir]

Dhruv WSI? Akash? BrahMos? Samyukta?

[Sid]

They are indeed junk,but there's wealth in junk.Just look at the amount of ERA tiles on these tanks!

Why should Indian Army fight with quarter century old tanks with ERA brinks salvaged from Russian Junk?

Aren't we spending 20 BILLION on MMRCA, then why scavenge the trash for ground forces?

Get the damn Arjun in numbers and you will see Pakis thinking twice before turning up on boarder with their Al-Kha-Leed.

[srai]

[quote="jamwal"

Have people stopped to think -- that T 90s are the ONLY piece of modern equipment that IA has over last 10 years ?

Thank heavens for small mercies.

Pinaka, Smerch ?/quote]

Well one of three then. Still, thank heavens for small mercies.

Looks like someone keeps ignoring the Arjun MBTs of which 120 MK.1 were inducted ... in the last 5 years