Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 16 Jan 2014 18:38

On wiki Global 5000 has service ceiling of 51000 feet and cruising speed of 904 km an hour, doesn't it make it fastest and highest flying civilian jet?

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 16 Jan 2014 19:04

Dhananjay wrote:On wiki Global 5000 has service ceiling of 51000 feet and cruising speed of 904 km an hour, doesn't it make it fastest and highest flying civilian jet?

Gulfstream G650 is the fastest certified civilian jet, clocking in @ average 915kmph in the around-the-world effort. Service ceiling is 51000ft as well.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jan 2014 19:19

This is RAW/ARC asset which is suppose to replace the older 707 and other smaller types they were operating for long. Decision Makers need and independent view from other agency which is civil in nature and RAW can get some good capabilities with this.

The video shows the radar can look at 400 km side ways .....so we can run this along Punjab/Rajasthan border and can sweep entire Pakistan landscape in few sorties and get good realtime pictures .....thats a good capability to have.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2014 20:10

These probably replace the Gulfstreams not the 707 per the report, but then again, if they have the full package from IAI they could presumably do both the roles.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 49802.aspx

The Bombardier 5000 aircraft, which will replace two 21-year-old Gulfstream jets, will daily collect electronic and ground intelligence 180 km inside the neighbours’ territories.

AM Goel noted the 707 was ELINT, for an Electronic Orbat, not visual recce.

VCAS and AOC -in- C WAC and equivalent rank officers from other services were invited to ARC HQ for a presentation on ARC’s functioning, role and support to be provided. Most of the AF officers only attended the presentation. They were also taken to the other facilities with in Delhi Area. They were all invited to visit ARC bases and were offered to fly in ARC’s mission aircraft Gulf Stream and “B-707 (SASS aircraft)”. Only person who availed this opportunity was Air Marshal AY Tipnix (VCAS at that time) and some of his operational staff. He flew two missions in B-707 strategic air borne surveillance aircraft. He sent a letter to the Raw chief complimenting the operation, role and the effort. Some of the contents of that letter are quoted below.

I would like to convey my appreciation for providing me an opportunity to observe ARC’S Elint Operations on Board the Boeing-707. …………………………..

The missions, one along the IB/LAC with China and the other along the IB/LAC with Pakistan were well planned and executed……………My warmest compliments to both the crews-cockpit and technical. The ops manager has enthused a very positive work culture.

Future conflicts will require the IAF to proceed to high value targets, located deep within enemy territory, and penetrating hostile radar envelope of surveillance and weapon control systems. The survivability of our crew and aircraft will be very largely dependent upon our EQ efficiency; real time intelligence on the Electronic Order of Battle (EOB) of the adversary are central to mission planning and programming of warning receivers and jammers. In this task the ELINT……….My brief first hand experience has reinforced my confidence in our combined abilities and mutual trust.

Gulfstreams were for visual recce. Per Air Mrshl Goels post on his blog.

After Oct 1998 it was only on 07 May 1999 that DGMI from Army HQ had called up Billi Bedi (Director ARC) to provide Air Reccece Mission in Dras-Kargil sector. When the info was filtered down to the air operation it was surprising and astonishing to decipher that the area to be covered was our own territory. Immediately mission was planned and launched the next day. However we did not succeed due to inclement weather. First six days that is upto 13 May 99 inclement weather did not allow the success of our missions. By, this time ground situation was becoming explosive and the media was very active in projecting the scenario as a war like situation.

Since I was fully qualified and operational on Gulf Stream type of aircraft fitted with MCRS ( Multi Camera Reconnaissance System), first three successful missions were flown by me personally. The PR mission flown on 18 May indicated 6 MI-17 helicopter of Pak Army parked in Mushok Valley area of our territory. These photographs were shown to the honourable RM he was aghast. This could not have happened with few weeks preparation this plan & preparation must have taken months of planning and preparation.

Even the Jaguar of the IAF were deployed in photo missions , but the results provided did not have the clarity, analysis and interpretation as compared to what could be provided by the ARC Gulf stream aircraft. Jaguar had limitation of height (not beyond 30,000 fit) endurance (45 to 60 minutes on task) and high vibration level restricted the clarity. The analysis and interpretation was by the personnel with limited experience. On the other hand ARC’s Gulf Stream aircraft operated at 45000 – 50000 feet, stable and silent platform (more than most of the Jet airliners) and an endurance of five and half hours. And the most important part of analysis and interpretation, ARC had experienced and dedicated PI’s on it strength, who were on the job for last 5 to 15 yrs or even more. Most of then were deputationist of the IAF & Army initially, however they had opted to be absorbed in ARC in that profession.

The missions launched by ARC were always discussed at Air HQ and such missions were under taken with full “Air Defence Cover” and air escort missions by Mirage 2000 or Mig 29 aircraft of the IAF.

Until and unless spares have become prohibitive, IMHO, we should retain even the older aircraft in our inventory. They are high value assets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Jan 2014 20:43

So the old Gulfstream did not have any Radar but MCRS and the new one has Radio/Radar and EO suite.

The 707 IIRC was loaned from AI after it ended its year of service .so prolonging them would dependent on the service hours left which probably wont be high.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Jan 2014 20:58

707s were pretty tough airframe wise IIRC and these will only be flown from time to time, provided engine etc spares could be sourced...so I wonder whether it is still around. On the new Bombardiers, couldnt make out the antennae for a full ELINT setup.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 17 Jan 2014 12:51

I think these are the same Aircraft. Of the 9 ordered the breakup is as follows:

4 Aerial Target Towing & Surveys
3 Communications Jamming COMJAM
2 Signals Intelligence SIGINT

Of the nine aircraft, two will be dedicated SIGINT platforms. The other seven will have equipment installed for survey and target towing missions, and three of these will have equipment installed for communications jamming (COMJAM).

FlightGlobal

What is interesting is; an Indian Ashok Leyland Stallion. Very broad capabilities on the system.

Interception Data types: Voice, Fax, Data, IP Data
Public Network Interception:
PSTN - Voice Switching
PDN - Public Data Networks
Virtual Private Networks
Leased Line Services
Processing and decoding of all Fax Modem data and Internet Protocols.

ELK-7073 - COMINT System

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2014 13:11

Vaibhav, thats a new RFI from the AF and SIGINT wouldn't normally include SLAR/EO capability. The previous 2 aircraft go directly to ARC. Find it interesting that in the AF tender, they are focusing so much on COMJAM but not on Non Com/radar EW... that implies IAF feels that it has sufficient capabilities via tactical aircraft (fighter mounted EW/Jamming pods are sufficient.) Interestingly at Kargil, per reports (IAF interviews etc), IAF also had a dedicated EW squadron with Canberras and MiG-21Ms..
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... sqn-35.htm

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 17 Jan 2014 13:51

Karan M wrote:Vaibhav, thats a new RFI from the AF and SIGINT wouldn't normally include SLAR/EO capability. The previous 2 aircraft go directly to ARC. Find it interesting that in the AF tender, they are focusing so much on COMJAM but not on Non Com/radar EW... that implies IAF feels that it has sufficient capabilities via tactical aircraft (fighter mounted EW/Jamming pods are sufficient.) Interestingly at Kargil, per reports (IAF interviews etc), IAF also had a dedicated EW squadron with Canberras and MiG-21Ms..
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... sqn-35.htm

Thanks, I wondered as much(I am new to all this

). COMJAM is same as what USAF describes as Electronic Attack or like as a Stand-off Jammer?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2014 14:51

Com Jam = Communications Jamming. Jamming all the radios, datalinks. Its part of Electronic Attack which would include attacking (electronically) both the Com & Non Com (eg radar) segments. Both are supported by SIGINT/ELINT. Which is basically you find out what to attack, and accurately as well. SIGINT typically will have COMINT (for the Communications part) as well, as well as radar specific ELINT/ESM.

Stand Off Jamming, is basically high power jamming from a stand off distance. Eg a strike package of Jaguars will have self protection jammers but another aircraft at a distance from the strike package, may be engaging in jamming the radars/communications.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 23 Jan 2014 20:48

Fund cut by finance ministry hits modernization of armed forces

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry is upset with the finance ministry for slashing Rs 7,870 crore from the funds allocated for the modernization of the armed forces, holding that it will delay the finalization of some critical procurement projects.

MoD, in fact, had asked for a hike in the revenue budget allocation (day-to-day costs and salaries) due to the increase in prices of POL (petroleum, oil and lubricants) as well as wages. "But what the finance ministry has done is to slash Rs 7,870 crore from the capital budget and transfer it to the revenue head," said an official on Thursday.

The overall defence outlay in the 2013-14 budget was pegged at Rs 203,672 crore, just about 1.79% of the projected GDP when military experts have been demanding at least 3% for several years now.

Moreover, revenue expenditure stood at Rs 1,16,931 crore out of the outlay, surpassing by far the capital one for new weapons, sensors and platforms at Rs 86,741 crore. As it is, a major chunk of capital budget allocated goes for "committed liabilities" every year, not leaving much for new projects.

India's military modernization takes place in a slow, haphazard manner in the absence of long-term strategic planning and fast decision-making, coupled with recurring scandals that derail critical projects time and again.

Now, with the capital budget being cut, the progress of different arms acquisition projects — several are pending for years — will also virtually come to grinding halt till a new government comes to office in the 2014-2015 fiscal.

From submarines to howitzers, air defence weapons to helicopters, the armed forces need them all to replace ageing weapons and stem the depletion in fleets. Some of the important deals close to being finalized this fiscal include the acquisition of 22 Apache attack helicopters (around $1.4 billion), 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters (around $ 1 billion), and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ($885 million), all from the US.

But the "mother" of all defence deals, the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters, is still nowhere being inked despite the technical and commercial evaluation process for it kicking off way back in August 2007.

Under the MMRCA project, the first 18 jets were to come in "fly-away condition'' from France from 2016 onwards, while the rest 108 were to be subsequently manufactured under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over six years. Grappling with just 34 fighter squadrons (16 to 18 jets each) when at least 44 are needed, the IAF is now hoping the contract is signed in the early-part of the 2014-15 fiscal.

Another long-delayed project, the Rs 3,000-crore deal for acquiring 197 "reconnaissance and surveillance" helicopters to replace the aging Cheetah/Chetak fleets of the IAF and Army, however, is headed for scrapping once again as a fallout of the VVIP helicopter scam, as reported earlier by TOI earlier.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 23 Jan 2014 20:51

^ I'm actually a bit relieved that the overall money (Capital + Revenue) hasn't changed. In many instances earlier, the capital budget was simply slashed to help pay for government's fiscal deficit. Now, the next govt can't allocate less than what was actually spent last year, so the forces don't lose much overall.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jan 2014 08:28

What is more heartening is the fact that the forces are able to utilize close to 100% of their Capital Budget for the last couple of years!!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2014 22:57

Arms acquisitions languish without funds or coordination

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2014 09:56

AW&ST: India Slows Action On Procurement Deals

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Feb 2014 19:17

According to senior analyst IHS Jane's Aerospace, Defence & Security MakGerti Fenella, by 2015 China is expected to spend $ 159, 6 billion, while the three European countries $ 149 billion ( via JANES )

Ranking of countries by military expenditure in 2013:

1. U.S. - $ 585.4 billion

2. China - $ 139.2 billion

3. Russia - $ 68.8 billion

4. Kingdom - $ 58.8 billion

5. Japan - $ 56.8 billion

6. France - $ 53 billion

7. India - $ 46.1 billion

8. Germany - $ 44.6 billion

9. Saudi Arabia - $ 42.8 billion

10. South Korea - $ 31.5 billion

11. Brazil - $ 29.5 billion

12. Australia - $ 29.5 billion

13. Italy - $ 27.7 billion

14. Turkey - $ 20.6 billion

15. Canada - $ 19.6 billion

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Feb 2014 18:02

BEL, Textron sign Mou for MicroObserver Unattended Ground Sensor System

Isn't there DRDO equivalent to detect Militants etc?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Feb 2014 17:16

They are not offering the ER version (Photo is of ER).

Pipavav Defence, ATLAS ELEKTRONIK JV to produce SeaHake mod4 heavy torpedo in India

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Feb 2014 18:48

Austin wrote:According to senior analyst IHS Jane's Aerospace, Defence & Security MakGerti Fenella, by 2015 China is expected to spend $ 159, 6 billion, while the three European countries $ 149 billion ( via JANES )

Ranking of countries by military expenditure in 2013:

1. U.S. - $ 585.4 billion

2. China - $ 139.2 billion

3. Russia - $ 68.8 billion

4. Kingdom - $ 58.8 billion

5. Japan - $ 56.8 billion

6. France - $ 53 billion

7. India - $ 46.1 billion

8. Germany - $ 44.6 billion

9. Saudi Arabia - $ 42.8 billion

10. South Korea - $ 31.5 billion

11. Brazil - $ 29.5 billion

12. Australia - $ 29.5 billion

13. Italy - $ 27.7 billion

14. Turkey - $ 20.6 billion

15. Canada - $ 19.6 billion

one would think ppp wise 1 billion would buy a lot more in india than say UK

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Feb 2014 18:55

Nikhil T wrote:Fund cut by finance ministry hits modernization of armed forces

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry is upset with the finance ministry for slashing Rs 7,870 crore from the funds allocated for the modernization of the armed forces, holding that it will delay the finalization of some critical procurement projects.

MoD, in fact, had asked for a hike in the revenue budget allocation (day-to-day costs and salaries) due to the increase in prices of POL (petroleum, oil and lubricants) as well as wages. "But what the finance ministry has done is to slash Rs 7,870 crore from the capital budget and transfer it to the revenue head," said an official on Thursday.

The overall defence outlay in the 2013-14 budget was pegged at Rs 203,672 crore, just about 1.79% of the projected GDP when military experts have been demanding at least 3% for several years now.

Moreover, revenue expenditure stood at Rs 1,16,931 crore out of the outlay, surpassing by far the capital one for new weapons, sensors and platforms at Rs 86,741 crore. As it is, a major chunk of capital budget allocated goes for "committed liabilities" every year, not leaving much for new projects.

India's military modernization takes place in a slow, haphazard manner in the absence of long-term strategic planning and fast decision-making, coupled with recurring scandals that derail critical projects time and again.

Now, with the capital budget being cut, the progress of different arms acquisition projects — several are pending for years — will also virtually come to grinding halt till a new government comes to office in the 2014-2015 fiscal.

From submarines to howitzers, air defence weapons to helicopters, the armed forces need them all to replace ageing weapons and stem the depletion in fleets. Some of the important deals close to being finalized this fiscal include the acquisition of 22 Apache attack helicopters (around $1.4 billion), 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters (around $ 1 billion), and 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ($885 million), all from the US.

But the "mother" of all defence deals, the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters, is still nowhere being inked despite the technical and commercial evaluation process for it kicking off way back in August 2007.

Under the MMRCA project, the first 18 jets were to come in "fly-away condition'' from France from 2016 onwards, while the rest 108 were to be subsequently manufactured under license by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited over six years. Grappling with just 34 fighter squadrons (16 to 18 jets each) when at least 44 are needed, the IAF is now hoping the contract is signed in the early-part of the 2014-15 fiscal.

Another long-delayed project, the Rs 3,000-crore deal for acquiring 197 "reconnaissance and surveillance" helicopters to replace the aging Cheetah/Chetak fleets of the IAF and Army, however, is headed for scrapping once again as a fallout of the VVIP helicopter scam, as reported earlier by TOI earlier.

capital modernization will continue to suffer since manpower is projected to increase by new divisions ! The Chinese are cutting down on man power and increasing the technical abilities of its forces

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Feb 2014 07:30

Sagem has been signing a lot of MoU's and contracts with BEL since past 2-3 years.

BEL, Sagem to pitch navigational sensors, inertial navigational system and optronic masts to the Indian Navy

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 10 Feb 2014 15:48

SAAB, Kalyani Group to pitch for Indian Army VSHORAD and SRSAM requirements

RBS-70 NG and BAMSE with Giraffe AMB 3-D radar on Ashok Leyland 8x8 stallion

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 13 Feb 2014 03:43

Shrinivasan wrote:What is more heartening is the fact that the forces are able to utilize close to 100% of their Capital Budget for the last couple of years!!!

MoD this week gave budget utilization numbers in Parliament

The capital budget usage is below
(in crores)
Year | Budgeted | Actuals
2010-11 | 60000 |62,056.00
2011-12 | 69198 |67,902.38
2012-13 | 79578 |70,499.12

So for the last 2 years we have not been spending the entire capital allocation, probably because of UPA's populist schemes screwing up the fiscal deficit.

vic · Post by **vic** » 13 Feb 2014 11:18

It would be interesting to find out how much Cap Exp is already committed for next 2-5 years.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 17:40

chackojoseph wrote:SAAB, Kalyani Group to pitch for Indian Army VSHORAD and SRSAM requirements

RBS-70 NG and BAMSE with Giraffe AMB 3-D radar on Ashok Leyland 8x8 stallion

What is Ashok Leyland doing here but screwdriver giri?
That is the problem with many of these private sector proposals. They are using their ready systems to meet the minimum requirement of onlly 30% local production from Buy Global etc. requirements. But over the long term, the import dependency remains.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 17:41

Jan 2013: Ajai Shukla wrote about how IA wanted FOM 1700 NV devices and BEL was unlikely to get the tech from Photonis, and was hence stymieing efforts by pvt manufacturers to get the same from other players.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 106_1.html

BEL replied, Shukla countered.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 068_1.html

In Defexpo, BEL confirmed a MoU with France's Photonis for XR5
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/10002/ ... v4Nh7Rax50

Photonis XR5 tubes are apparently used by several manufacturers worldwide.
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-513552.html

On the plus side, IA gets a FOM of 1700+, India gets "TOT" (to whatever level). On the negative side, we could have got NVGs quicker from the pvt players (perhaps) and is the above TOT even going to lead to anything worthwhile?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 17:51

http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... ncertainty!

The Indian Army’s $400-million tracked gun competition for approximately 100 guns is turning out to be an enormously interesting one, seeing a face-off between Russia's UZMT and a tie-up of India's most experienced private defence player Larsen & Toubro Limited (L&T) and South Korea's Samsung Techwin (STW). At the last Defexpo in 2012, STW announced that they would be cooperating in the Indian Army's Tracked Self Propelled Artillery Programme. A proposal to develop the 155mm/52-calibre tracked, self-propelled artillery,with L&T as the lead partner, had been submitted in 2011 to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), and things have moved forward well in 2013-14.

They should make the gun as well and not just stop at electronics, ancillaries..

Larsen & Toubro, as the lead partner, announced in 2012 that it would indigenously produce the self-propelled howitzer, a huge boost to indigenous impulses at the MoD these days. As part of the cooperation agreement between the two companies, STW provides key technologies to L&T for localisation of the K9 Thunder. During the production phase of the Indian tracked artillery program, the joint offering would have over 50 per cent indigenous content including components like fire control system, communication system, NBC & AC, APU, life support system, etc which have already been used in India. This phase will also include significant localisation of hull/turret structure and major subsystems. L&T also plans to set up the integration and testing facility for roll out of these guns from its world-class, dedicated defence equipment facility in Talegaon, near Pune.

SO Bharat-52 is set for trials? Hopefully it sees the light of day and induction.

Bharat Forge is moving forward substantively with plans to compete for the Indian Army's 155mm/52-calibre towed gun requirement, a competition that has confounded all involved and come to symbolise the decrepit state of artillery modernisation in the country. It is this requirement that was originally to replace the old Bofors field howitzers, and it is this requirement that has led nowhere so far. At Defexpo 2012, Bharat Forge’s executive Director Amit D. Kalyani had announced, "We are developing a towed gun of 155mm/52-calibre mainly for the supply to the Indian Army. We have already responded to a tender for supplying this gun. We have initially committed Rs. 100 crore only on development. If we win the tender we will need another dedicated line of investment for the assembly line."

Dhanush

For instance, the Dhanush sports an all-new aiming and positioning system, a unified sighting system, an ammunition and charge display unit, a 30 per cent range increase on the original gun, improved efficiency on the modified double baffle muzzle brake and a modified loading trough. The Army-OFB initiative is currently going through a cycle of trials with the user and is being seen largely as a stopgap arrangement ahead of larger 52-calibre gun procurements.

Some good from the Catapult

Finally, an eyecatcher at this year's show is undoubtedly the Arjun Catapult system, unveiled for the first time at this year’s show. The system, comprising a Russian-origin M-46 130mm ‘Catapult’ gun on a modified Arjun chassis and automotive system, has been successfully demonstrated in prototype form to the Indian Army in 2012. The system will enter a phase of technological fine-tuning in coordination with the Army later this year before targeting production by 2015-16. The Arjun chassis is likely to be exploited in other ways too, with inquiries pouring in from international vendors who want to partner with DRDO to create hybrid systems based on the indgenous platform.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Feb 2014 17:54

what would be the base for L&T/Samsung tracked SP venture ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 18:01

They'd take the original system itself IMHO, as they refer to localization of hull/turret.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 14 Feb 2014 18:02

Karan M wrote:Jan 2013: Ajai Shukla wrote about how IA wanted FOM 1700 NV devices and BEL was unlikely to get the tech from Photonis, and was hence stymieing efforts by pvt manufacturers to get the same from other players.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 106_1.html

BEL replied, Shukla countered.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 068_1.html

In Defexpo, BEL confirmed a MoU with France's Photonis for XR5
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/10002/ ... v4Nh7Rax50

Photonis XR5 tubes are apparently used by several manufacturers worldwide.
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-513552.html

On the plus side, IA gets a FOM of 1700+, India gets "TOT" (to whatever level). On the negative side, we could have got NVGs quicker from the pvt players (perhaps) and is the above TOT even going to lead to anything worthwhile?

Karan,

Thanks for digging out the BEL counter reply.

manufacture the advanced XR-5 II tube with FOM 1600-2017 with certain improvements in processes

Does BEL mean they have the tech now to manufacture NVD above FOM 2000 also? If so, this is true gold plated stuff. Thank you
Frenchies!!

These should have good resolution from 60-70 and SNR figures as high as 25-26. The US SOCOM is now switching to White Phosphor Tech now.

vic · Post by **vic** » 14 Feb 2014 18:06

Does it means TATAs attempt to get into NV devices is dead or they will also get a part of the order?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Feb 2014 18:11

Karan M wrote: What is Ashok Leyland doing here but screwdriver giri? That is the problem with many of these private sector proposals. They are using their ready systems to meet the minimum requirement of onlly 30% local production from Buy Global etc. requirements. But over the long term, the import dependency remains.

This is the most amazing 'partnership' I've ever seen...foreign firm providing a highly complex VSHORAD weapon system partnering with Indian firm supplying what? A 6 x 6 Truck!!!

Amazing imagination!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Feb 2014 18:27

Karan M wrote:http://www.spslandforces.com/exclusive/ ... ncertainty!

The Indian Army’s $400-million tracked gun competition for approximately 100 guns is turning out to be an enormously interesting one, seeing a face-off between Russia's UZMT and a tie-up of India's most experienced private defence player Larsen & Toubro Limited (L&T) and South Korea's Samsung Techwin (STW). At the last Defexpo in 2012, STW announced that they would be cooperating in the Indian Army's Tracked Self Propelled Artillery Programme. A proposal to develop the 155mm/52-calibre tracked, self-propelled artillery,with L&T as the lead partner, had been submitted in 2011 to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), and things have moved forward well in 2013-14.

They should make the gun as well and not just stop at electronics, ancillaries..
Larsen & Toubro, as the lead partner, announced in 2012 that it would indigenously produce the self-propelled howitzer, a huge boost to indigenous impulses at the MoD these days. As part of the cooperation agreement between the two companies, STW provides key technologies to L&T for localisation of the K9 Thunder. During the production phase of the Indian tracked artillery program, the joint offering would have over 50 per cent indigenous content including components like fire control system, communication system, NBC & AC, APU, life support system, etc which have already been used in India. This phase will also include significant localisation of hull/turret structure and major subsystems. L&T also plans to set up the integration and testing facility for roll out of these guns from its world-class, dedicated defence equipment facility in Talegaon, near Pune.
SO Bharat-52 is set for trials? Hopefully it sees the light of day and induction.
Bharat Forge is moving forward substantively with plans to compete for the Indian Army's 155mm/52-calibre towed gun requirement, a competition that has confounded all involved and come to symbolise the decrepit state of artillery modernisation in the country. It is this requirement that was originally to replace the old Bofors field howitzers, and it is this requirement that has led nowhere so far. At Defexpo 2012, Bharat Forge’s executive Director Amit D. Kalyani had announced, "We are developing a towed gun of 155mm/52-calibre mainly for the supply to the Indian Army. We have already responded to a tender for supplying this gun. We have initially committed Rs. 100 crore only on development. If we win the tender we will need another dedicated line of investment for the assembly line."
<SNIP>

Couple of points:

1. Ideal situation for the artillery program would be to have the same gun used in all the four major categories - SP (Tracked), SP (Wheeled), Mounted Gun System (MGS) and Towed Gun System (TGS). The ULWH M777 is a different ball game. We today have different participants in all 04 categories and Indian Army will in effect have 04 different gun types. If commonality cannot be obtained across all segments, then at least the TGS and MGS should be derived from common gun. And SP (Tracked) and Wheeled should be from same platform.

2. If DRDO is developing the ATAG 155/52 system, then where does Kalyani Gun comes into picture? Unless, the Kalyani and DRDO products are going to be in a face-off.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 19:07

Vaibhav,

Yup at least IA gets current tech.

Photonis has white phosphor as an option:
http://www.photonis.com/en/nightvision/77-onyx.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2014 19:08

RV agree, how many guns of how many types. Logistical menagerie.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Feb 2014 16:15

Defence Modernisation Not Getting Its Due

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 Feb 2014 20:41

A stupid question

Will the various 155 mm guns be able to use the same ammunition / shells / charges ?

K

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Feb 2014 20:58

rohitvats wrote:
Karan M wrote: What is Ashok Leyland doing here but screwdriver giri? That is the problem with many of these private sector proposals. They are using their ready systems to meet the minimum requirement of onlly 30% local production from Buy Global etc. requirements. But over the long term, the import dependency remains.
This is the most amazing 'partnership' I've ever seen...foreign firm providing a highly complex VSHORAD weapon system partnering with Indian firm supplying what? A 6 x 6 Truck!!!

Amazing imagination!

They are not the only ones. Unfortunately a lot of the pvt contribution at Defexpo, for arty and other programs was like that. If a PSU did it we would rightfully call it screwdriver giri. We should ensure the arty contenders don't try to pull a fast one on us, by putting their guns on Indian trucks, and then mark that up to claim indigenous production at 30% etc and clinch the deal. This is as ridiculous as TATRA trucks being manufactured (err assembled) at BEML and being called indigenous.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Feb 2014 21:07

^^^ AFAIK what ever we assemble locally or lic manuf it here we call it indigenous only.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2014 21:08

they have to start somewhere. without a long history of making weapons in pvt sector we do not have the ecosystem at all. and they will atleast deliver it better than OFB I feel with their 3 guns/month ambitions.