Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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Philip
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

As said before,you can't have a rich prosperous Israel with a concrete wall border dividing Israel from the Palestinian enclaves, which no matter what aid they get resemble turd world slums.One cannot by any stretch of the imagination insist that they enjoy an equal lifestyle to that of Israeli citizens.Unless an equitable agreement is found which will give enough space for all sides to live in peace and prosper,conflict will continue.Some solution also has to be found for the Palestinian diaspora who were turfed out of their land and demand the "right to return",which Israel refuses to allow.Israel is too small a land to accommodate them,they can't live as refugees in foreign lands forever,therefore the surrounding Arab world will have to chip in collectively (helped with aid from the globe) and do the needful. There's heaps of desert land which can be made to bloom if you follow the Israeli example.India did it with the Lankan Tamil estate "Indentured" labour,brought over to the island as coolies to work the plantations dispossessing the Sinhalese from their ancestral lands.WE took back lakhs and Lanka gave citizenship to the rest.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... pyMrfsmB_8

Navy Expects 'Reverse Gaza Flotilla'
Gaza group plans to sail from Gaza toward IDF ships enforcing naval blockad
The IDF and Israel Navy are prepared to encounter what has been dubbed a “reverse flotilla” from Gaza, reports Israel Hayom Monday. The political flotilla will be coming at the Israeli ships from Gaza and going westward, as opposed to previous political flotillas that came from the west toward Gaza, hence the name "reverse flotilla".

The IDF estimates that dozens of Arab and European activists will be on the flotilla, and that it will include several boats.

The flotilla is the initiative of a group that is calld Shabab al-Intifada and was planned to take place Friday, but was postponed. The group said on its Facebook page that its intent is to “break the naval siege of Gaza,” and that the participants will be young people from Gaza and other countries, who do not belong to any political movement.

IDF sources told Israel Hayom that it is too early to say how “serious” the flotilla will be.

Israeli sources said that ever since the infamous 2010 Mavi Marmara incident, most countries are not interested in funding flotillas toward Gaza. There have been several incidents in which boats tried to break Israel's blockade of Gaza, however, but they ended without violence.

Nine Turkish members of the IHH pro-terror group were killed aboard the Mavi Marmara, which was part of a flotilla called Free Gaza. The IHH members brutally attacked IDF soldiers who boarded the ship, using guns, knives, and metal pipes, seriously injuring several soldiers and leaving the elite IDF unit no choice but to defend itself by using use lethal force.

The incident caused great tension between Israel and Turkey, which was partly defused when Israel apologized to Turkey following US-brokered contacts. Then- Commander of the Navy, Major General Eliezer Marom said the commandos were upset by the apology.

Tags: Mavi Marmara, flotillas
Shanmukh
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

Philip-ji,
The Palestinians have a per capita income twice that of India. I am not sure if it qualifies at all as a third world slum.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by member_28030 »

nageshks wrote:Philip-ji,
The Palestinians have a per capita income twice that of India. I am not sure if it qualifies at all as a third world slum.
Per capita of "slaves" or "colonized" does not count.

A prostitute serving rich American tycoons have much higher per capita than many Indian girls working in call centers or even as doctors etc.

Would you like to switch roles?

Or how about this, we, Europeans, make Indians' per capita same as Palestinians...but keep indians in an open air prison, take away their sovereignty from them, disband their military and take over their airspace, and carve out a state for us in the midst of indian heartland.

Would you agree?

** Deleted **
Last edited by SSridhar on 04 Dec 2013 11:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued for abuse. Abusive portion deleted.
Shanmukh
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

Auz wrote:
nageshks wrote:Philip-ji,
The Palestinians have a per capita income twice that of India. I am not sure if it qualifies at all as a third world slum.
Per capita of "slaves" or "colonized" does not count.

A prostitute serving rich American tycoons have much higher per capita than many Indian girls working in call centers or even as doctors etc.

Would you like to switch roles?

Or how about this, we, Europeans, make Indians' per capita same as Palestinians...but keep indians in an open air prison, take away their sovereignty from them, disband their military and take over their airspace, and carve out a state for us in the midst of indian heartland.

Would you agree?
Dude - Land belongs to the conqueror, until the next one comes along. Your bleating about colonisation is pathetic. Are you going to give up the Americas and Australia, and return to Europe? Don't even start that bullshit about the Israelis having no rights to be there. They had every right to be there, The Jews were expelled by the Romans, who got kicked out by the Arabs, who were crushed by the Crusaders, who were defeated by the Mamelukes, who were then displaced by the Ottomans, and then the Jews returned. They have as much right to be there as your Arabs. In fact, a whole lot of Arabs arrived from what is today's Lebanon, and Syria, due to the opportunities created when the Jews started arriving. Just take a look at the demographics of pre-Mandate Palestine and then at the demographics of 1948.

We Indians have won our freedom from the British. Your Palestinians are only good for screaming Jihad, starting a war, getting kicked by the Israelis, hiding behind the corpses of their kids whom their own stupidity has killed (if you start a war, you should think about the consequences) and then whining for aid, parading the bodies of those kids. I would have had a lot more respect for the Palestinians if they had used the PA to build up their own economy. Since 1993, they have had a chance at self governance and every chance they have wasted (and they had excellent chances to build up their economy, especially early on). Until now, they have indulged only in destruction, smashing everything, even useful things, left behind by the Israeli settlers.
** Deleted **
Save your pathetic pontifications. We are fine with our country, we are growing and we are not begging - which is more than can be said for your Palestinians.
Last edited by SSridhar on 04 Dec 2013 11:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted portion in the original post deleted
Philip
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Per capita income which gets you what? Sri Lanka has a higher per capita income than India too,but look at the inflation there.Food is much cheaper than in India and in Gaza (blockaded) and the Palestinian enclaves,almost everything is hard to come buy and hideously expensive,why the maze of tunnels into Egypt have been built to smuggle in essentials due to Israel's security stranglehold on the enclaves.Here is a former Israeli security chief who is echoing what I've been saying.Netanyahu's ultra hard line polcies have attracted much criticism from Israelis themselves.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... hreat-iran

Israeli former security chief: failure to end conflict is bigger threat than Iran
Yuval Diskin says two-state solution will soon no longer be possible and Palestinian youths are 'frustrated and hopeless'


The failure to reach a deal to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict poses a bigger existential threat to Israel than the Iranian nuclear programme, according a former head of the country's security agency, Shin Bet.

Yuval Diskin, who left office two years ago, criticised the continuing occupation and the growth of settlements in the West Bank, saying a solution based on two states would soon no longer be an option.

"I would like to know that our national home has clear borders and that we hold the people sacred, not the land. I would like to see a national home that is not maintained by occupying another people. I say this even though it's not popular: we need an agreement now, before we reach a point of no return from which the two-state solution is not an option any longer,"
Diskin said in a speech to mark the 10th anniversary of the Geneva Initiative, a peace plan proposed by Israeli and Palestinian politicians and public figures.

The former security chief, who featured in the Oscar-nominated documentary The Gatekeepers, added: "We cannot live in one state between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea and we cannot treat the conflict as shrapnel in the backside." He was referring to comments by the economy minister Naftali Bennett, who dismissed the conflict as "shrapnel in [the] rear end".

Diskin called for a freeze in settlement expansion, saying that the release of long-serving Palestinian prisoners, agreed by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, before the current talks began, was "a disgusting and cynical move that was born out of a desire to avoid freezing settlement construction".

Speaking as the US secretary of state, John Kerry, arrived in Jerusalem for a fresh push at unblocking the current talks process, Diskin warned of the consequences of the Israeli government's stance.

"It doesn't seem like the current government is trying to change the direction of the settlement enterprise. Our friends in the world are becoming frustrated with the implementation of the two-state solution. There is immense frustration in the West Bank. The Palestinians are feeling that their state is being stolen from them. The Palestinian masses feel they have no future. We must take into account the link between the Palestinians and their brothers, the Israeli Arabs. The concentration of fuel fumes in the air is such that even a small spark can cause a massive explosion."
Palestinian youths "that were born into occupation are distressed, frustrated and hopeless", he added.

Diskin has repeatedly criticised Israeli government policy since leaving the Shin Bet, which runs security and intelligence operations in the West Bank and Gaza. His comments were dismissed by serving officials as "recycled criticism and self-righteous preaching". Diskin was "out of touch with reality", they said.

And here is a former Mossad chief too criticising Netanhayu !

http://www.timesofisrael.com/former-mos ... u-on-iran/

Former Mossad chief defends decision to defy Netanyahu on Iran
The political echelon must listen to its security chiefs, says Meir Dagan, asserting that Tehran’s nuclear drive ‘can always be stopped’
By Aaron Kalman April 28, 2013,

Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan (photo credit: Kobi Gideon/Flash90)
Aaron Kalman Aaron Kalman is a writer and breaking news editor for the Times of Israel

A former chief of Israel’s Mossad spy agency has come out against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s policy of setting “red lines” for Iran’s nuclear program, saying that the Islamic Republic’s effort to develop nuclear weapons can be countered at any time.

In an interview with Channel 2′s investigative news program “Uvda,” Meir Dagan warned that by beating the drums of war, Netanyahu was putting Israel at risk of provoking Iran to strike preemptively.

Dagan alluded to a fateful meeting during which he, then-Shin Bet head Yuval Diskin, and then-chief of the General Staff Gabi Ashkenazi met with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, then-defense minister Ehud Barak and other members of the cabinet in a Mossad club room to discuss the prospect of attacking Iran.

During the meeting, all three of the security chiefs reportedly defied Netanyahu and Barak’s order that the military prepare for a solo strike on Iran, and eventually swayed several key ministers to their side.

“I think that when a serious group from the security establishment shows up, and everyone has a similar opinion, the political echelon should listen,” Dagan said in the “Uvda” interview, which was previewed Sunday and was slated to be aired in full on Monday. “I’m not sure that, in our history, there was ever a situation where the political echelon thought something and the entire professional echelon thought otherwise.”

But though there were big gaps in the approaches of various officials, “no one doubted the political echelon’s authority to make decisions,” he said.

“As opposed to the stance of the prime minister, I think Iran’s [nuclear] armament can always be delayed,” added Dagan, who headed the Mossad for almost a decade.

The very act of preparing the army for the possibility of launching a strike could cause the Iranians to ready their troops, he said, and “as a result you can enter an impossible reality in which everyone is preparing for war, while it’s possible no one wants it.”

During the 2010 meeting with the security chiefs, Dagan reportedly called the order to ready for war “illegal,” while Ashkenazi declared that an attack on Iran would be “a strategic mistake.”)

Benjamin Netanyahu, right, and Ehud Barak at the Defense Ministry in 2012 (photo credit: Ariel Hermoni/Defense Ministry/Flash90)

“This isn’t the sort of thing that you do unless you’re certain that you’ll end up launching an operation,” Ashkenazi was quoted as saying. “It’s like an accordion that makes music even if it is merely handled.”

Dagan, the report said, was even more ardent than the chief of staff in his dissent.

“You may end up going to war based on an illegal decision,” the former intelligence chief was quoted as saying. “Only the security cabinet is authorized to make such a decision.”

Later, Dagan would say that “the prime minister and the defense minister tried to steal a war — it was as simple as that.”
His own Finance Minister on Iran:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/s ... ch-mistake

Israeli boycott of Rouhani UN speech 'a mistake', says finance minister
Yair Lapid attacks PM Binyamin Netanyahu's instruction to Israeli delegation to leave during Iranian president's address


And the latest snub from O'Bomber himself just 2 days ago.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/arnold ... u-shut-up/
Obama to Netanyahu: Shut Up
The Obama administration can’t take the heat. Stung by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s reaction to the so-called “deal” made with Iran, President Obama has asked the Israeli leader to “take a breather from his clamorous criticism,” according to the Washington Post’s David Ignatius.

Netanyahu’s anger is justified. Despite the ostensible reality that Israel is America’s staunchest Middle East ally, the Obama administration was engaged in six months of secret, high-level talks with Israel’s foremost enemy. Obama informed Netanyahu of this reality on September 30. And while he seemingly took Obama’s announcement in stride, a day later the Israeli Prime Minister delivered a blistering speech to the UN General Assembly, calling Iranian President Hasan Rouhani a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” looking to exploit this latest diplomatic effort to advance his nation’s nuclear weapons agenda. He also made it clear where his nation stood on the issue. “I want there to be no confusion on this point. Israel will not allow Iran to get nuclear weapons,” he insisted. “If Israel is forced to stand alone, Israel will stand alone.”

In the following weeks, there was no let up by Netanyahu and other Israeli officials, and on November 24 Obama phoned the Prime Minister in an effort assuage his concerns. The two leaders agreed to have an Israeli delegation, headed by National Security Adviser Yossi Cohen, ensconced in Washington, D.C. to iron out a deal that keeps Israel in the loop going forward. Obama also assured Netanyahu the both nations were on the same page with regard Iranian policy goals. It was during that phone call that Obama reportedly asked Netanyahu to tone down his rhetoric.

By last Thursday, it became apparent that while Netanyahu might shift his criticism away from the deal itself, he was not about to keep quiet. “The largest darkness that threatens the world today is a nuclear Iran,” the Times of Israel quoted Netanyahu as saying. “We are bound to do all we can to prevent this darkness. If possible, we will do this diplomatically. If not, we will act as a light unto the nations.”

Yesterday, in a response to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert’s ridiculous criticism of his approach to the issue, Netanyahu reiterated his intention to keep talking. ”In contrast to others, when I see that the vital security interests of Israeli citizens are at stake, I will not shut up,” he declared. ”It is very easy to keep quiet. It is easy to receive pats on the shoulder from the international community, to bow one’s head, but I am committed to the security of my people. I am committed to the future of my country, and in contrast to periods in the past, we have a loud and clear voice among the nations and we will make it heard in order to warn–in time–against dangers,” he added.

Olmert, speaking at an Institute for National Security Studies (INSS) conference in Tel Aviv, had likened the ongoing criticism as tantamount to an act of war against the United States. ”We have declared war on the US. That cannot be disputed,” said Olmert, who further insisted that Israel needs to avoid anything that might be construed as a “fight” with its closest ally. And while Olmert conceded that a nuclear Iran was a threat to Israeli interests, he stressed that the Jewish State should allow the United States to take the lead in preventing that reality from occurring.

Netanyahu seemingly offered both Olmert and Obama a fig leaf in that regard. ”We always remember that the US has been, remains and always will be Israel’s greatest friend,” he said.

Yet actions speak louder than words. Israeli Defense Forces told British newspaper The Sunday Times that the Israeli leader has ordered Mossad, its international espionage agency, and Aman, its primary military intelligence organization, to search for any evidence that violates the deal signed in Geneva eight days ago. “Everyone has his own view regarding the Geneva agreement,” an Israeli intelligence source was quoted as saying. “But it is clear that if a smoking gun is produced, it will tumble like a house of cards.”

The source further noted that the Israelis will focus their attention on three aspects of clandestine activity, namely bomb designs, ballistic missile development, and secret uranium enrichment sites. “Iran would not have invested such a fortune [estimated at $200 billion] if in the end it does not produce nuclear weapons and turn Iran into a regional superpower,” insisted an unidentified Israeli official.

Undaunted, the Iranians continue to push the envelope. On Saturday, Rouhani announced that his nation will begin construction on a second nuclear power plant in the Bushehr province in southwest Iran. “The first nuclear power plant is in operation in Bushehr province, and the construction of the second one will soon kick off; development of new atomic power plants in the country will start in earnest and there will be nuclear reactors in most parts of Bushehr province,” the Iranian Tasnim news agency reported Rouhani as saying. Tehran pushed the envelope even further, identifying an additional 16 sites they consider suitable for nuclear power plants.

In the meantime, while the American left is celebrating this “historic” achievement, it is worth remembering two sobering realities. First and foremost, there is no deal. As noted last week, the Iranians contend the White House put out an inaccurate fact sheet regarding what was agreed to, and the State Department was forced to admit that the much-ballyhooed six-month interim agreement has not begun, nor is there any mechanism in place to prevent Iran from continuing to pursue its nuclear ambitions.

Second, Americans either forget or are unaware of the reality that Rouhani is a front man for the real power in Iran, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. That would be the same Ali Khamenei who continues to refer to the United States as the “Great Satan,” and who told thousands of Iran’s Basij militiamen late in November that Israel is the “sinister, unclean, rabid dog of the region.” “The real threats to the world are evil powers including the Zionist regime and its supporters,” Khamenei said. “The Zionist regime is doomed to destruction, because this despicable regime was formed by power and imposed on the world, and nothing which is imposed will last,” he added.

The Obama administration’s reaction to Khamenei’s rhetoric? According to the Washington Post, it was “brushed off” by officials shortly before the talks in Geneva began. Peace at any price requires nothing less.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sunnyP »

The Passing of a Warrior - Ariel Sharon is no more.


Ariel Sharon, the former prime minister of Israel, has died after eight years in a coma
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ed-85.html
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

The General

An Israeli journalist’s six years of conversation with Ariel Sharon, who died Saturday.
Karan M
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Karan M »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon

During his military career, he was considered the greatest field commander in Israel's history, and one of the country's greatest ever military strategists.[1] After his assault of the Sinai in the Six-Day War and his encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army in the Yom Kippur War, the Israeli public nicknamed him "The King of Israel" and "The Lion of God".[1]
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by gunjur »

Apologies if already posted.

ISRAEL’S STRATEGIC WORTH TO EU - PDF File
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by raj.devan »

How India-Israel Defence Cooperation Flourished in 2013

http://www.osundefender.org/?p=148590
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: Defense relations between India and Israel are flourishing. 2013 saw a few minor setbacks, but overall the bilateral arms trade between New Delhi and Jerusalem will continue to be strong.

Defense relations between India and Israel have come a long way, against all odds. Israel has emerged as India’s second-largest arms supplier, behind only Russia, with bilateral arms trade over the last decade estimated at $10
billion. 2013 witnessed major developments in India-Israel defense cooperation, most of which involved enhancing arms trade and furthering joint projects. There were certain constraints as well, none of which curbed ties.
The most important aspect would probably have to be the induction of Barak missiles, without which our naval fleet, including the Vikramaditya and all the other 'National Resources' as Mr. Antony describes them, would be vulnerable in hostilities.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Karan M wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Sharon

During his military career, he was considered the greatest field commander in Israel's history, and one of the country's greatest ever military strategists.[1] After his assault of the Sinai in the Six-Day War and his encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army in the Yom Kippur War, the Israeli public nicknamed him "The King of Israel" and "The Lion of God".[1]
best description of arik sharon I read was "part gen. mcarthur, part hand grenade".
do try 'eve of destruction' for a good a/c of 1973 conflict.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Is this shop in Chennai still named "Hitler?"
Does the owner not realise just how offensive it is to Jews and Israeli's?? :(

If it is still up can someone locally have it removed and give the owner a good talking to?

http://imgur.com/A2yk48w
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by devesh »

Right after we take similar umbrage at Churchill and mountbatten.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by raj.devan »

Haresh wrote:Is this shop in Chennai still named "Hitler?"
Does the owner not realise just how offensive it is to Jews and Israeli's?? :(

If it is still up can someone locally have it removed and give the owner a good talking to?

http://imgur.com/A2yk48w
There is one more apparently world famous store in Ahmedabad: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/worl ... -shop.html

This probably is OT, so I'll be brief.

The following is a list of establishments (from clothing stores, to offset printers to battery dealers) who are called 'Hitler'. The weirdest is a children's ready-made garment store called 'Kid Nation Hitler'.

http://www.justdial.com/National-Search/Hitler
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Some of the hilarious ones (with possible taglines):

1. Hitler Hair and Beauty Salon
2. Hitler Battery Services
3. Hitler Transport (wonder what their slogan is - Cheap One Way Trips, One Time Offer Only?)
4. Hitler Data Solutions (We offer you the final solution for all your data problems).
5. Hitler Sales & Marketing (Really?)
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

>> 4. Hitler Data Solutions (We offer you the final solution for all your data problems).

:rotfl:
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Haresh »

devesh,

I can understand your views on Churchill/Mountbatten, but (correct me if I am wrong) the Israeli's and the Jewish people in general are regarded as friends. Why offend friends?

Rahul,This forum is probably visited quite often my Jewish/Israeli's why make these sort of comments and offend friends?
and you have included a ROTFL smilie !!!!

Insensitive to say the least.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Atri »

this religious non-utterance of Hitler's name is very similar to old bible's commandment in weird way - thou shall not utter lord's name in vain.

they have converted hitler into lord voldemort (he who should not be named). Yes, what he did to jews was very bad (as devesh ji said, qualitatively as bad as what muslims and british did to Hindus, what mao did to chinese, what japanese did to chinese, what stalin did to russians, what whites did to native-americans, what turks did to armenians and what polpot did to combodians) but I do not understand this sort of reverence towards hitler. Hitler was ridiculed in funny sort of way when war was on. But they have stopped even making fun of Hitler - this is very much biblical trait.

this is seen in hindi public literature when speaking of muslims. I know plenty of marathi literature which ridicules mughals and other muslim rulers. Ridiculing british is kosher in north, but not muslims. Now we call this a dhimmi attitude of hindus. why should not the jews be called dhimmis if they are sort of so afraid of the idea of ppl making fun of Hitler.

Jews have been in India for thousands of years now. The indian jews should at least educate rest of the jews about Hindus. Hitler is hardly a serious issue in India - we have suffered maniacs of much higher order. Most of Indians (hindus) see hitler has someone who is strict disciplinarian - a stern school headmaster is often referred to as Hitler as is the strict father of girl one is dating. It is even gender-nonspecific - we have called stern lady-teachers as hitler (hitlernee) in our school days.

It is really funny to tiptoe around a name. What Hitler actually was, I am willing to bet not one of these shopkeepers know. there are many "the great mughal" restaurants in west which are equally as offensive to me as the restaurant hitler's cross in navi-mumbai was to jews.

all and all, I feel this should either be reciprocated. Yes, one should educate people about history of ww2 and how hitler did bad things. but castigating the name itself that too in distant and totally unrelated civilizations like Hindus and India who will never do what Hitler did, even if they use his name to further their commercial interests, is seriously funny.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Haresh, you are being touchy. hitler has been parodied for long enough and often enough (by jews themselves in many cases) for the act of parody by itself to continue to be taken as somehow anti-semitic.

if you didn't get it, we were laughing at the owner of that co that gave such an absurd name.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Haresh, the Israelis know us very well and they know who their friends are and who are not. They also know their history in India very well. I doubt very much they'll be offended, and not just that they'll just laugh it off as we are doing...

The Israelis have been quite comfortable with this sort of thing for some time..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 30,00.html

Your concern is well meant, clearly, but really there's nothing to worry about here in terms of offending Jews... some will be offended no doubt, but that's likely for almost anything
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

India Israel set up joint Technology Fund.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... vrzLpXYf6M

An interesting part of the article is here
In December, Israel's Consul General in Mumbai, Jonathan Miller, revealed that Israel would be entering into a free trade agreement with the Indian state of Gujarat.

"Gujarat is a business-oriented state and this MoU will help both Israeli and Gujarat-based companies in developing and strengthening the industrial relationship,” Miller was quoted as saying.

Delegations from Israel and Gujarat are frequent visitors in each others' countries, and there has already been substantial economic cooperation between the two, Miller said. The new memorandum of understanding will focus on developing an investment fund that will help local businesses expand their horizons, he added.
NaMo is establishing his Kommunal credentials onlee. Alert the moral police. In addition to the Hindu bashers, now the Jew bashers can join in the fun in demonising NaMo.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

I'm actually wondering how they can do an FTA with a state, while staying within federal commercial policy boundaries... Obviously Gujarat has considered this, should be an interesting model.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

JE Menon wrote:I'm actually wondering how they can do an FTA with a state, while staying within federal commercial policy boundaries... Obviously Gujarat has considered this, should be an interesting model.
I think it is possible to have FTAs be limited to certain areas - in this case, it might be limited to Gujarat. if NaMo managed to pull this one off with the Union government, he really needs a bouquet of roses sent to him.

Wasn't NaMo talking about each state partnering with a different nation? With 30 states (and UTs), he said we would have 30 partners, all useful in a crisis, since economic ties are the most enduring and binding.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Report: John Kerry is Working to Scuttle Israel-India Arms Deal

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/02/14/re ... arms-deal/
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

I am of the opinion that on an individual basis an average Israeli is no different from an average American with beliefs in exceptionalism and racial pride with perception of India as a third world country. I have heard of many a story from Goa where Israelis in particular are very racist and demeaning to the Indians there so much so that some shops dont allow Israelis. It also has to be remembered that they are Jews and in its purest form is one of the most intolerant religions out there.

The India Israel friendship between nations is one of convenience. We have a common grievance of encirclement and harassment by Jihadis. My enemy's enemy is my friend and all that. I am still of the opinion that it is fundamentally impossible for India to have a brother to brother relationship with a country that has a Abrahammic majority population. Russia with its deep roots of orthodox Church (like our Malankara church where people are as damn SDRE they can be) is an exception though.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Not quite so. Jews find the Christian trinity essentially pagan and polytheistic. The closest religion to Judaism is Islam. However, Jews are non-proselytising and in fact imagine themselves to be beloved of god (sundry poisonings, calamities, testings, enslaving not withstanding).

As long as Hindus understand this, there is peace and love. Of course to someone with a Vedanta perspective, all is puerile-whether Christian, Islamic or Judaic or the street version of Hinduism. It is only degrees of absurdity, which is not a matter fit for the inquiry of intelligent men.

As long as Jews understand this, all is peace and love.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Actually, that may be a bit harsh:I was offered a marriage to a Jewish paediatrician once-over the phone by a Jewish fellow after a ten minute chat!
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

sanjaykumar wrote:Not quite so. Jews find the Christian trinity essentially pagan and polytheistic. The closest religion to Judaism is Islam. However, Jews are non-proselytising and in fact imagine themselves to be beloved of god (sundry poisonings, calamities, testings, enslaving not withstanding).

As long as Hindus understand this, there is peace and love. Of course to someone with a Vedanta perspective, all is puerile-whether Christian, Islamic or Judaic or the street version of Hinduism. It is only degrees of absurdity, which is not a matter fit for the inquiry of intelligent men.

As long as Jews understand this, all is peace and love.

Saar they have toned down of late and are going easy on taking the Jewish scriptures literally. In that sense they have reformed unlike the Islamics. As I said its more of a govt to govt friendship for convenience. Deep down Jews consider us idol worshipers etc etc and all that Abrahammic stuff.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

There are convergences on civilisational worldviews and principles, strategic interests and commercial synergies. Of course it is convenient. It is convenient therefore to be in synchrony as much as possible, and as friendly as possible.

What is expected? Love? Subservience? "True" friendship? Total equivalence?

If yes, ask yourselves why do we need that?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

JE Menon wrote:There are convergences on civilisational worldviews and principles, strategic interests and commercial synergies. Of course it is convenient. It is convenient therefore to be in synchrony as much as possible, and as friendly as possible.

What is expected? Love? Subservience? "True" friendship? Total equivalence?

If yes, ask yourselves why do we need that?
BTW I love Israel and would back it over any other nation any day with exception to Russia which will always be my #1 foreign country love.

Only 2 of the 4 above are applicable sir, strategic interests and commercial synergies. The question to ask would India have been the same mature all-accepting power it is today if there were no Paki nations around us. The answer is Yes.

Question is would Israel continue being what it is today if it had no Paki Arab states around it, the answer is No. IMO the only true all weather friend of Israel is USA where the souls of both nations are interlocked for various reason, Obama notwithstanding.

All I want to say is, in realpolitik, nation to nation tie ups are reality but it does not mean that the peoples of the two countries have some form of deep attachment to each other say like Israel-US or India-USSR.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

^^Flying ... will respond later. This one needs be properly threshed out for total clarity.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

JE Menon wrote:^^Flying ... will respond later. This one needs be properly threshed out for total clarity.
Please don't thresh me saaar :mrgreen:, havent been picked on by a bredator for some time now and want it to be that way.

<prayers>
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

Topic needs to be threshed out boss, not that you need to be thrashed!
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by raj.devan »

Yogi_G wrote:I am of the opinion that on an individual basis an average Israeli is no different from an average American with beliefs in exceptionalism and racial pride with perception of India as a third world country. I have heard of many a story from Goa where Israelis in particular are very racist and demeaning to the Indians there so much so that some shops dont allow Israelis. It also has to be remembered that they are Jews and in its purest form is one of the most intolerant religions out there.

The India Israel friendship between nations is one of convenience. We have a common grievance of encirclement and harassment by Jihadis. My enemy's enemy is my friend and all that. I am still of the opinion that it is fundamentally impossible for India to have a brother to brother relationship with a country that has a Abrahammic majority population. Russia with its deep roots of orthodox Church (like our Malankara church where people are as damn SDRE they can be) is an exception though.
I get to meet quite a few of Israelis in my work, and get to travel frequently to Tel Aviv. On the whole the vibe you get from the average Israeli is very much the same you get from Central/Western Europeans, albeit with a distinct middle eastern strain. Its a result of most Israelis, along with most of the country's elite, having descended from WW2 immigrants from Europe. The middle eastern dinension comes from the comparitively smaller portion of its Jewish population who were historically native to the region.

If Israel had not been surrounded by the same kind of enemies that we have, their relation with us would have been the same as that of countries like Germany or Italy.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Yogi_G »

raj.devan wrote: If Israel had not been surrounded by the same kind of enemies that we have, their relation with us would have been the same as that of countries like Germany or Italy.
+1.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

raj.devan wrote: I get to meet quite a few of Israelis in my work, and get to travel frequently to Tel Aviv. On the whole the vibe you get from the average Israeli is very much the same you get from Central/Western Europeans, albeit with a distinct middle eastern strain.
Yes, and no. It really depends on what Jews you are interacting. What I am giving you is a very rough characterisation.

Jews from Europe form less than half of Israeli population, but they were the more educated, and dominate in industry, education, etc. So, if you are interacting with this bunch, then you would get the western European vibe. Almost all liberals you see come from this group, but they have the usual liberal condescension towards India.

Russian Jews come with their own set of views, but they are the most relaxed when it comes to religion, exceptionalism, etc. Hundred years under tsars, and then communist atheism, has made them less religious, but they are also more nationalistic - often hyper nationalistic, when it comes to Israeli interests. Personally, I have always found this bunch easiest to get along with. It is easy to find common ground with these.

The third group are the north African Jews (Sephardi). This bunch is more religious (but it is often out of convenience, because they want to keep their customs, and they like not to be assimilated by the Ashkenazi). The Sephardi are similar to European Jews in their view of India.

The last group are the Mizrahis and the other Asian (including Indian, South East Asian) Jews, although properly, some Indian Jews are Sephardi - who came to India after escaping persecution in Spain and Portugal. Many of these have had trading contacts with India in their families (even other Mizrahi Jews who lived outside and traded with India), It is among this bunch that you will find any genuine empathy with India. Their ancestors have lived or traded with India and they appreciate that India was the only country that did not persecute them. Funnily enough, if you are vegetarian, these are the bunch who would understand your dietary needs (others will mix fish or eggs, even if you say you are vegetarian). Many Mizrahi/Asian Jews are themselves vegetarian (in the Technion, there is a vegetarian society, and you will find most of its members are Mizrahis, although a few of the others have joined in as a curiosity).
If Israel had not been surrounded by the same kind of enemies that we have, their relation with us would have been the same as that of countries like Germany or Italy.
Here, I beg to disagree. Israel will always have the hatred of the other two Abrahamic faiths. History has proved that, and any truce (yes, truce) they have with other Abrahamics is only temporary. Even in US, their power is declining. The problems Obama is having with Netanyahu are not just personal disconnects between two leaders, it is symptomatic of a deeper problem, that is set to grow worse in the coming years. They know that, and they instinctively search out for allies, who have no hatred for them. Even pro Israel America has had its share of antisemitism. Many Israelis, particularly in governance, understand that on an extended basis, countries that do not have antisemitism are their only allies. Consequently, you will find a lot of sympathy for India there.
Last edited by Shanmukh on 22 Feb 2014 18:41, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

thanks for that nageshks - no need for me to take the trouble now. :D
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Jews from Europe form less than half of Israeli population, but they were the more educated, and dominate in industry, education, etc. So, if you are interacting with this bunch, then you would get the western European vibe. Almost all liberals you see come from this group, but they have the usual liberal condescension towards India


It is almost comical to see this condescension rapidly deflate with some keywords-occupation, human rights abuses, Ostjuden, ritualistic male genital mutilation etc, etc.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Shanmukh »

sanjaykumar wrote:Jews from Europe form less than half of Israeli population, but they were the more educated, and dominate in industry, education, etc. So, if you are interacting with this bunch, then you would get the western European vibe. Almost all liberals you see come from this group, but they have the usual liberal condescension towards India


It is almost comical to see this condescension rapidly deflate with some keywords-occupation, human rights abuses, Ostjuden, ritualistic male genital mutilation etc, etc.
I think the whole problem goes deeper than liberal condescension, in the case of Israeli Jews (not speaking about American or European Jewish citizens here). The collapse of Israeli Left politically is a direct consequence of their falling share of the population of European Jews, SanjayKumar-ji. The arrival of the Arab, African, and Russian Jews has brought down the proportion of the European Jews radically. If you have been observing Israeli politics, the first two-three decades, almost all parties were well left of centre, and there were a large number of left party variants (Mapai, Rafi, Ahdut HaAvoda, etc). In fact, from 1948 up to 1977, all Israeli PMs were from the left. Even poor Menechem Begin, brilliant and articulate as he was, could barely keep the Herut (predecessor of the Likud) going. Truth be told, the older Leftists (whom you can still find if you go to Labour rallies) are much more pleasant, more Israeli and far less condescending than the new Liberal Labour activists. But the falling population share of the European Jews, and the economic failures of the Kibbutzim, meant that the Left's stranglehold on politics had been broken by 1977.

From then on, like our Congress party, they are desperately trying to find their footing, but have failed miserably. Even repeated mergers of Leftist parties has not saved the Israeli Labour Party from political oblivion, and even worse for them, it is those whom they despised, the maniacal rightists (supported by Russian, African, and Middle Eastern Jews, whom they used to look down upon), who have moved the entire political spectrum much to the right. For the old European Jews, the Liberalism is their way of showing they are superior to those whom they hold in contempt (Their way of saying to Russian Jews, `Look you tribal minded creature, we can love even our enemies!')

Even otherwise, European (specifically, the ones that came from old Germany, France, Austria-Hungary Empire) Judaism had a more Unitarian strain to it, compared to the Sephardic or Mizhrahic versions, and some of the strong focus on Torah based practices by the Right gets their goat. In search for a larger identity (both within Israel and without), they have adapted Liberalism, and Liberalism is also a political project. They cannot regain power directly through elections (not enough old European Jews, and younger European Jews are not sufficiently Leftist), so they are trying to get back in power by asking Americans and Europeans to put pressure on the Israeli right to form a `National Government' and get back to negotiating with the Palestinians. The best way of getting into the good books of the Americans is by becoming Liberal (Liberal groups have the most influence in US and Europe), so they have adopted the mores and values of the American and European Left.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by raj.devan »

nageshks wrote:
Yes, and no. It really depends on what Jews you are interacting. What I am giving you is a very rough characterisation.

Jews from Europe form less than half of Israeli population, but they were the more educated, and dominate in industry, education, etc. So, if you are interacting with this bunch, then you would get the western European vibe. Almost all liberals you see come from this group, but they have the usual liberal condescension towards India.
These are the Ashkenazi Jews who, as you have pointed out, are dominant in business, industry and technology, and who I had the most interaction with. By virtue of their influence on government, as well as their presence in government, they are the ones who define what Israeli governmental policy is to a great extent and are the group who direct Israel's trade and political relations with the rest of the world. In this sense, apart from the strong survivalist mentality that Israel displays in the face of its enemies, this is for all political purposes no different from any European nation.

The relatively fewer Sephardi Jews I interacted with did show marked religious and relatively subtle cultural differences, but did not seem to be so different in the political sense from the Ashkenazis.
Israel will always have the hatred of the other two Abrahamic faiths. History has proved that, and any truce (yes, truce) they have with other Abrahamics is only temporary. Even in US, their power is declining. The problems Obama is having with Netanyahu are not just personal disconnects between two leaders, it is symptomatic of a deeper problem, that is set to grow worse in the coming years. They know that, and they instinctively search out for allies, who have no hatred for them. Even pro Israel America has had its share of antisemitism.
While Israel's political situation in the Middle east is based on what is primarily a religious divide, I think it is too simplistic to draw such a strong parallel between their cultural/religious outlook and their political outlook. While Judaism may have an inherent mistrust against Islam and Christianity, Israelis do not find this so important a factor when it comes to determining something completely unrelated such as international diplomatic relations. In other words, while they are still a state based on a common religion, they still keep their religious identity in a separate box from their political identity at least as far as their foreign policy is concerned.
Many Israelis, particularly in governance, understand that on an extended basis, countries that do not have antisemitism are their only allies. Consequently, you will find a lot of sympathy for India there
If the absence of anti-Semitism was the main factor to distinguish a country that would be an Israeli ally in the long term, then India with its large and rather active Muslim population would be disqualified.The sympathy for India, as I see it, purely stems from the common enemy that both countries face and the respect that Israel has for anyone who has to face the same danger. And then again, the enemy here is perceived more as political force than a religious one.

On the other hand, by this hypothesis, would China, or the countries of East Asia eventually turn into Israel's staunchest allies?
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